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  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Lol a Goryo's Vengeance player complaining. Maybe he/she should play a better deck. The only time I see that deck win is every once in a while on Hoogland's stream. I think I have a 100% win rate vs it, it just isnt good
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Yeah I sure hope my $500-$1k deck isnt one of the "Anceint Stirrings or Lootings decks." If it happens to be, then oh well, I guess its a brewers paradise so my money that I saved up to finally finish a Modern deck wont go to waste.

    I also hope that when I do brew my next combo deck, a card wont get banned again, since I guess if my combo deck is on the same level as trash-nauseum, then people wont cry about it. Or I can just go back to storm, and let people cry for a grapeshot ban like they did a year ago
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from ktkenshinx »
    Quote from The Fluff »
    Quote from Pistallion »

    I personally think the design team shouldn't care about that. Blue and counterspells have been a part of magic since the beginning. I don't get why people complaining about counterspells have any merit. Counterspell should be apart of Modern, I don't really see why it shouldn't


    Also believe that Counterspell should be a part of modern. It should have been here a long time ago. If it becomes oppressive in Standard, they could just ban it.. things getting banned seem to be the norm in that format anyway.

    Standard saw a lot of bans in the last two years, but that's hardly the "norm in that format" by any measure. Standard was overwhelmingly ban-free for years. Bad design decisions led to a wave of bannings which coincided in huge Standard popularity dips. Wizards will do everything possible to avoid going back to that place. As such, Wizards is never going to print a Standard-legal card designed for Modern that knowingly threatens to break Standard with the willful fallback of a ban. That's just not going to happen. Counterspell is probably safe in a Standard-legal set overall. It's just not safe with Teferi also legal. By a similar token, there might be Standard formats where something like Chain Lightning was a fair card. This current Standard format, with its dearth of viable red-based aggro, is not that format. Wizards is just doing their due diligence by avoiding such cards in Standard, and the newfound diversity and popularity of the format is a testament to this.
    Quote from tronix »
    id take force of will over counterspell in modern any day, and twice on sunday. if the intention is to combat decks streamlined to be fast and their most powerful nut draws then you need to be hitting their turn 1-2 setup plays. a 2 cmc spell with UU casting cost isnt very well suited to do that.

    a lot of the complaints about modern are typically centered on there being so many 'game 1' decks. its just phrased with stuff like 'linear'. these decks play the way they do, with a heavy emphasis on optimal sequencing of their opening hand and draws, because there isnt any fear of reprisal. no counterplay that they have to respect.

    having decks that can snap off a turn 1 opal, vial, lootings, etc. suddenly they have to evaluate if their hand is functional without them, instead of how it currently is where they just know it will happen as planned.

    also FoW is good against that type of stuff, but quite poor against everything else. the same cant be said for counterspell.

    Unlike with Counterspell, I struggle to envision a Standard format where this card is fair and balanced. Moreover, I struggle to imagine Wizards assessing this card in any Standard and believing it's a safe design. I also think Wizards views Legacy as a format for stuff like FoW, Wasteland, Brainstorm, etc., and won't port those cards into either Modern or Standard any time soon. All three of these reasons, at least one of which is a legitimate barrier, will prevent FoW from coming to Modern. The card is just too good in any Standard format where blue is at least remotely viable. The only format where I could see FoW existing is a format where blue was deliberately stunted around FoW. But if the best example of that is the current Teferi-driven format, which still has Search, Settle, Sabotage, Niv, and a half dozen other powerful enablers, it seems more likely that any diverse (i.e. well-designed) Standard format is going to lead to a scenario where FoW is way too strong.

    I could definitely see a FoW tribute that works better in Modern than in Standard. Something like:

    Forcing Will 3UU
    Instant
    If you control an island, you may pay 1 life, exile a blue card from your hand, and exile a land from your graveyard rather than pay this spell's mana cost.
    Counter target spell.

    This kind of templating (tweak numbers if needed) could exist in certain Standards. Even if you think this particular version would be too easily broken by things like Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse, we could still probably figure out a way to get a FoW through Standard and into Modern with only a little bit of conversation. Revolt FoW is another option.

    I didn't play during Alliances, but I actually disagree that FoW is too powerful for Standard. I only know the card in the context of powered up formats like Legacy, Vintage, and Cube. I can imagine a format where the power is lower, and control isn't even that powerful, which isn't that uncommon when it comes to Standard. FoW has major drawbacks.

    The only format where I could see FoW existing is a format where blue was deliberately stunted around FoW.

    And so what if it is? Right now Teferi is being designed around straight up, what's the difference if its Force of Will (or any other Blue card) instead? In my opinion, Teferi is a more powerful card than Force of Will in a format that can actually tap out on 5 and not die. At the end of the day, FoW is still just a counterspell with -1 card advantage
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on UB(x) control
    My list is classic draw go, but you tend to tap out a decent amount on turn 2 with thought erasure. You really want to play on your opponent's turn, and the only time you arent is either on turn 2 with thought erasure or whenever you are playing Bolas. Verix Bladewing looks like a cool idea that has been showing up more in the Dragons lists, but I might test it too.
    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1370143#paper
    this is my current list
    Posted in: Established (Standard)
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Broken is a termed used when the power level of something in a game is a lot higher than probably was intended, and the things that are supposed to be good against it don't really exist or are ineffective. Usually broken means that there is no good counterplay or that the metagame is warped around that single mechanic or entity.

    A good test to measure when something is broken is to ask the question: in any situation, would I just rather be playing "X broken thing" over pretty much anything else?
    "Would I rather just play Ancestral Recall here over anything else?" Most likely no.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    They've said before that most people, probably newer players, always feel way worse when their spell gets countered than when it gets killed by a removal spell. I think it has to do with removal being at least somewhat narrow where counterspells aren't, and there's something about it actually hitting the board and passing the turn vs it just going straight to the yard.

    I personally think the design team shouldn't care about that. Blue and counterspells have been a part of magic since the beginning. I don't get why people complaining about counterspells have any merit. Counterspell should be apart of Modern, I don't really see why it shouldn't
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    I dont think Green Sun will come off. It would probably benefit unfair decks more than unfair
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from DaveJacinto »
    It's clear and it's great that they have been thinking about Modern (somewhat) when designing new cards.

    My only grudge is that they are not looking at the innocuous cards still left on the ban list. If I were to start somewhere I'd try to narrow the ban list as much as possible and then try to sculpt the format introducing the really needed cards.

    The way they are doing it, which could be considered valid by many, is through power creeping the format. This will make the cards currently played in the banlist unplayable when they actually decide to unban them...

    Anyway #freePreordain

    Agreed, Preordain looks pretty stupid being on the ban list right now
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [[Official]] What [deck] should I play/buy/get into thread
    New to Legacy, I really like the idea of the lands decks. I love tutoring, love Life from the Loam, love 20/20 Indestructible creatures etc. Thing is I don't know which one to try out. 4color Loam, UB Depths, or Lands?
    Posted in: Legacy (Type 1.5)
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from BlueTronFTW »
    Honestly? I think the idea of decision-making having an impact is vastly overrated in the game in general. That's not "oh this decision matters" as much as "do I understand how my deck works and how his/her deck works?" Once you've played with a deck a lot, you know the decisions to make nine times outta ten.

    I agree. The game is basically all about knowledge of the format. Even when playing a linear deck, you need to know the format. The only thing is, I think that because of the vast amount of decisions in Legacy, impactful or not, the feeling is better, whether is it exists objectively or not. Cheese exists so much more in Modern, imo, than any other format because of how good cheese cards can be. Just play 1 league on mtgo and its literally filled with "cute" cheesy cards all the time
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from Joban8 »
    Quote from Lear_the_cat »
    Quote from Mikefon »
    Quote from Lear_the_cat »
    Quote from cfusionpm »

    I cannot write enough words to explain how and why I think this statement is wholly and completely wrong.

    I'll try to explain why.

    [...] if you udon't want to see opponent realizing potentian of his powerfull cards then just kill him before. Here comes t3 kill combo and aggro decks.

    That's not unbans fault. Those strategies would be discovered anyway sooner or later.
    Dredge would be the same deck even without BBE and Jace unbans, the same is true for Phoenix decks.
    As long as unbans don't power up unfair strategies I can't understand why there shouldn't be.

    Yeah, I can understand this position. But main question is what players really want? Nonlinear, interctive modern? Linear, interactive modern as it it's now?
    If ppl want first, they have to push their desire and opinion bcs Wizards have testing team to reject potentially broken things and if something unexpected happens - ban it with banhammer tool. But as I see current modern's future - it's Legacy 2.0 with slow dying which is profitable for Wizards but not for players. (Standart and Arena reasons)


    Legacy is only in the state that it is today b/c of the RL; support for the format would look a whole lot different if duals weren't so cost prohibitive. If Modern were to ever experience "slow dying", it'd be due to a lack of player interest and not due to a lack of availability of format staples. Let's stop this woe is me Modern is dying bull*****. Modern was supposedly dead when enemy fetches were pricing players out of playing certain decks, then it was supposed to be dead when WotC started reprinting too many format staples, dead after the banning of [pod, twin, etc], dead from eldrazi winter, and lest not forget, death at the hand of Frontier and its merry band of Siege Rhinos.

    My opinion is that if it wasn't for the RL, more people would play Legacy.
    Legacy is extremely punishing when it comes to in game decisions, but Modern is super punishing for things like deck choice and mulligan decisions, which is kinda feels bad.

    One dude at my LGS said something like, if you had the ability to look at each player's top 10 cards, you can almost always predict who is going to win. I don't really think you can do that in Legacy. (Same could probably be said about Standard too)

    It basically comes down to accessibility. New cards are easier to obtain, and people who play standard already have the cards to play with an eternal format. Its a whole snowball effect. More people with new cards want a format to play with, so they go to Modern. That means more tournaments are Modern, which in turn brings more people to the format.

    I'm not trying to bash Modern by any means, I just think if we look at it through a complete competitive lense with no outside factors like card/tourney accessibility, I just personally think Legacy might be more popular.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from cfusionpm »
    Blue based Scapeshift hasn't been a thing for years. What makes it any better than Titanshift variants?

    I'd say its better vs other combo decks than RG Shift. The reason is Remand, Bolt, and Cryptic to buy you time. You also have the Madcap Experiment + Platinum Emperion combo to slow them down. With buying time with remand, you can also use your sideboard cards like Slaughter Games. The major problem with RG Titanshift is that its just slower than decks like Storm and KCI with minimal card draw so you basically just pray you hit a sideboard card like Relic or Damping Sphere or you lose. On top of that, BTL is basically a toolbox style deck with spells, so even if you aren't at 7 lands, you can use BTL to cast whatever you need for the moment.

    Few problems with the deck includes similar weaknesses against aggro decks, but not as bad as RG Titanshift. The mana base is so hard, and you really need to meticulously plan out which lands you are going to use. Having Cryptic Command, Damnation, and Anger of the Gods in the same deck is not easy to use, but the idea is to really cast those cards using BTL rather than having them in your hand, which is why I said I think i kinda got unlucky since I kept drawing my single Damnation.
    Another problem is that thier seondary gameplan just isnt that great. Platinum Emperion isn't always the best secondary gameplan, and fighting through a Blood Moon or Surgical Extraction on your Valakut/ Scapeshift is a lot harder. One thing people really don't understand about the RG Titanshift version is that it can have a decent game vs Blood Moon and doesn't rely on Valakut as much as one might first think.

    I actually didn't play vs other Control decks, namly UW, but I imagine it's not that great. RG version traditionally is good vs them, and Platinum Emperion just loses to Path, so you basically have to win a counter war, which is probably not happening. I think the idea behind why it was good in the past was because you would have a lot more lands than your control opponent. However, with the format being much faster than it used to be, the deck isn't geared towards beating other control decks, imo, and RG version is just probably better in that regard. I think the MU used to be amazing back before Feld of Ruin but im not sure nowadays

    Lastly, if felt a lot worse vs discard decks like Jund. Discard is usually not too bad in RG Titanshift because the whole deck is super redundant and most of the time your top decks are better than your Jund opponent. But with the BTL version it isn't the case, and your Remands kind of look silly vs Thoughtseize and IoK. I plan on playing it more for sure, and its super fun, I suggest you try it out. I was on the Black version, but I might buy the rest for the white version. Prismatic Omen can be really good especially since having your lands become Lightning Bolts in a control deck seems pretty sweet.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Rug Scaoeahift ha been putting up some numbers recently with currently 2 builds, black splash for better sideboard cards, and white splash for Wargate + Prismatic Omen. I personally have played the B version and tbh I think the deck is pretty good. I was always a fan of old school rug, but with BTL, it's a pretty decent deck. I feel last weekend on mtgo I kinda got unlucky with constantly drawing my one ofs I'd rather be using BTL to cast , but in paper I did pretty good
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    I think the frustration someone like cfusion has is justified, though, even with control being a tier 1 deck. Modern lacks a lot of agency in general, and especially looking at control decks where that is basically the whole point in playing blue based control. The feeling of not being in control of the outcome, where your decisions in game seem to hardly matter, still exists for a lot of people.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 26/11/2018)
    Quote from BlueTronFTW »
    Yeah well its cold out here for control. Teferi and Search are good sure but when you see dredge getting creeping chill while control cannot get good counters, good draw or good boardwipes well it does make one salty. And note I said good I consider chill broken.

    I even take a good cheap creature at this point like Containment Priest.


    Teferi and Search are really, really good. They are the reasons why UW miracles became a top tier deck and continues to be a major player in modern despite losing some shares. Opt also needs to be added to the list of good things, no matter how basic it is. It enables the control player to keep up mana in the early turns and use it to draw cards if the opponent doesn't have a play. While definitely on the bottom of the list, Hieroglyphic Illumination's flexibility with cycling as instant speed draw also matters.

    I'm not sure what better board wipes control could possibly get when there's access to the original board wipe in Wrath of God, plus Supreme Verdict, Settle the Wreckage, and Terminus.

    The problem with blue based control is not the cards available. UWx actually has access to a lot of really strong plays. The problem is that reactive decks have to build based on what sort of meta they are trying to beat. Modern has the largest number of options. Control, and arguably midrange, will never be the best deck unless the meta changes to a point where the viable decks shrink from a dozen (plus another dozen fringe options) to like three or four. I for one don't want to see so many people's options invalidated for the purpose of putting a specific deck near the top (even though miracles and the rock are perfectly usable options, simply not top tier).


    Na, UW needs better card draw like Brainstorm or Portent to become truly dominate. The reason for this is because in most games they straight up just need to miracle Terminus or they lose. Creature based decks have become basically Legacy creature decks, Vial or Cavern or bust. These decks are playing 2 three drop creatures at instant speed with counterspells attached to them on the same turn, that's why Terminus needs to be Miracled, same as Legacy.

    Preordain, most likely will only help unfair decks, it's not good enough for UW to play because it's a Sorcery.

    UW would most likely play Ponder, but there is a giant fear about Ponder amongst Modern players for some reason. Ponder is a huge step up from all the other cantrips, and almost every blue deck would run it.

    Brainstorm is something we can all agree we don't need to have in Modern. Just look to Legacy for reference.

    Portent could be a cool inclusion in Modern mostly buffing UW strictly, but I would be fine with that. Seems like a cool card and I'm a huge advocate for cantrips, which some people are against, but who knows.

    Here's the cons: cantrips crate very consistent gamestates to the point of the game becoming "samey." Having too many good cantrips can create a state we have in Legacy where not only is Blue warped around these cards (mandatory 4x of Brainstorm and Ponder), but it also can warp the entire metagame around these cards/color. However I'd argue Legacy is far from "samey" and that if you want to look for an example of samey gameplay, Standard is prime example, and Legacy is far from it. Contrips create insane amount of decisions just with one single card.

    I'd rather we have powerful control decks in Modern than other linear decks, and this is coming form a combo deck player. If we do look to Legacy, UW control and Grixis control are amongst the most powerful decks, alongside other fair decks, mostly being Terbo Xerox, and because these fair decks are so powerful, it is hard for decks that run broken turn 2 kills to run rampant. (This does not imply we need a control-combo police deck like Splinter Twin however)

    Decision making becomes more ingrained in the gameplay, and overall agency is increased because of it.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
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