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Treasure Cruisin' Modern Big Red
  • posted a message on [Primer] Blue Moon: UR Blood Moon/Shackles Control
    Quick question, is there any "silver bullet" cards that beat this deck? I play Titanshift and the MU seems to be almost 100% auto win lol
    Posted in: Control
  • posted a message on RGx Titanshift
    Is there any other cards we can use against the Breach Moon decks? Seems almost a 90/10 mu where they literally have to draw all lands for use to win. Every other mu we can use some card to help us, but im stumped on vs them
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from idSurge »
    Quote from Pistallion »
    Quote from idSurge »
    Its not biased at all, its right out of the Top 8 data for GP's from the life of Modern.

    You are on ignore from this point forward until you go ahead and review the data as I have. Its there, just look it up yourself.

    His point is that its selective data


    ....

    Give me another source then? Twin was banned on the back of its T8 performances, and the Pro Tour (questionable since PT's are not 'pure' events...) so give me another one?

    This is the frustration I and other 'twin supporters' face. You all can call us biased, say we dont provide numbers to back up our arguments, and when I then spend a non-insignificant amount of time going over actual.factual.numbers both PRE AND POST Ban, I'm flippantly told that I 'reek of bias'.

    All data is selective. I've given the source, I've given the Post Ban numbers, including Top 8 counts.

    UR Twin was better than Grixis Twin, at least that was the general consensus at the time, just saying.

    I was thinking of making my own thread on this Renegade Rallier, I probably will if someone gives me a reason to continue looking at new data.

    You selected a few tournaments that fit your narrative about linear decks. Here's mine:

    SCG Columbus Open 2018
    Jeskai Control
    Jeskai Control
    U/R Gifts Storm
    Grixis Death's Shadow
    G/W Company
    U/R Kiki Moon
    Humans


    SCG Indianapolis Open 2018
    Grixis Death's Shadow
    Eldrazi Tron
    Jeskai Control
    Death and Taxes
    Elves
    Eldrazi Tron
    Grixis Death's Shadow
    U/W Control

    SCG Louisville Open 2017
    Jeskai Control
    Jeskai Control
    Jund
    8-Rack
    U/R Gifts Storm
    5-Color Death's Shadow
    W/B Eldrazi Taxes
    Grixis Death's Shadow



    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from idSurge »
    Its not biased at all, its right out of the Top 8 data for GP's from the life of Modern.

    You are on ignore from this point forward until you go ahead and review the data as I have. Its there, just look it up yourself.

    His point is that its selective data
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from idSurge »
    Quote from tronix »
    every good deck is supplanting decks similar to it. regardless its pointless to go on and on about whether the ban was justified. it really doesnt matter. twin was banned under circumstances that differed significantly to previous ones. that is just a fact.

    the format is completely different now, and we should be framing everything under the current state of things and stop looking at the past.

    eldrazi decks, dredge, fatal push, death shadow, storm, kci, mardu, humans , hollow one, etc. stop looking at what twin was doing 2 years ago because that format no longer exists.


    Several good points here.

    1. Twin would replace decks. No argument can be made that it wouldnt. UR Kiki and UR Breach for example would 100% disappear.
    2. It really doesnt matter. I agree. This T8 exercise was something I just wanted to do to confirm to myself that Twin was not over represented. It wasnt OR OTHER DECKS ARE.
    3. The format is completely different now. 100% Its very interesting to see the format take shape, and to remember some of these events. Tarmo Affinity anyone? Grin

    Either way, we can all move the goal posts over and over, cite any numbers we have access to, waste time to write up justifications, but in the end it doesnt matter.

    Nothing this forum says, will get Twin unbanned.

    Nothing.

    Besides the outside chance pro players or Wotc employees looking at this site, yeah it probably wont ever influence anything. However, thats not point. I think that if a good enough argument to ban or unban a certain card is presented, then it could do some things. It can firstly, help people predict unbannings and get ahead of the meta and/or price boom of a certain card (I have recently bought a playset of Stoneforge and Twin due to these discussions alone). Secondly, it can slowly spread to other outlets like Reddit and Twitter and eventually influence the greater general "thought" of the people playing Modern, which can influence Wotc.

    At the end of the day, thats not he reason we discuss things like unbannings on this sub. Its mainly for fun
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    I really think the "Solitare Format" idea is super disingenuous and was much worse earlier in Modern's lifespan than it is now.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from Skitzafreak »
    Quote from Arkmer »
    I've never played Twin, never played Kiki-combo, but why is the difference of R that huge of a difference? I can understand the difference between T4 and T5, I get the creature vs aura, but was that enough to really pigeon hole the deck? I'm sure the answer is "Yes, that really screwed the deck", but is Kiki-combo being basically nonexistent not a sign that Twin would also not be an overbearing deck?

    Again... Pretty neutral about Twin, never played it, never played kiki.


    The difference is more than just the addition of a red mana. Kiki-Jiki is also a creature, making him susceptible to more removal that Twin would be open to. Additionally, the 5th mana does make a huge difference as there are a lot of ways to stop the combo, and progress your own board when you have 4 mana. For example you could play a Taromogoyf and hold up Abrupt Decay, however you could not do that on 3 mana, so you would effectively have to play your third land and pass, basically letting your opponent make your turn 3 useless just from the sheer threat of having the Twin combo.

    Quote from pierrebai »


    I'd be okay to unban twin if you ban the exarch *and* the faerie. Remove the flash element, make the combo entirely sorcery speed, and it would be fine. Having a two-cards combos with one-half being instant-speed, EOT, makes it a bit too good. I don't think there is another combo deck that is so lean and has one half be EOT in the top two tiers of modern.


    Well, technically even if you ban Exarch and Pestermite the combo can still be done with an instant speed creature on turn 3 in the form of Village Bell-Ringer or Bounding Krasis. However I think the important thing about these two creatures is they don't let you tap your opponents lands, meaning you can't cut your opponent off of the removal spell they were holding up.

    Quote from Pistallion »
    15% of the format is still probably double what the #1 deck, Humans, is right now. If a deck must pass the "Twin Test" then that is the very definition of format warping. That is why Pod and Twin were banned. I agree very much so with pierrebai when he says Twin is just a more oppressive Storm. Most non tiered decks can't beat Storm. However, Storm has so much easier hate cards to play so that "new" decks can have game against it. Twin does not have this problem at all.


    I think Pod was banned not for format warping reasons, but because it's mere existence limited what kind of creatures WotC could print in the future. It's kind of like how if Stoneforge was unbanned WotC would have to be mindful of any potentially powerful Equipment they may want to print in the future. Yet creatures are a lot more prevalent and pushed than Equipment, so Pod had to get the axe.

    As for the format warping bit, while I do agree that the "Twin Test" is 100% the definition of format warping, I do not necessarily believe that is a bad thing. Not in a broad sense anyway. If the way Twin would warp the format would be that of the 75 most played decks, 15 of them are now worse because they have a new really bad match-up, well how is that any different from a new archtype emerging from a new set and pushing a deck out of the meta? Not everything should be allowed to exist for high competitive play. If however the warping of Twin's existence pushed out say, all but 15 decks, well yeah that is definitely too much and Twin is a mistake that needs to be fixed.

    I don't really care about fringe decks being pushed out of the meta due to Twin. My main problem is of the question "Why play any other deck than Twin?" Coming from a spike perspective, its not fun when theres other interesting decks around but when a deck can have such a good machup spread then its hard to justify not playing Twin.



    Quote from The Fluff »


    I guess you have a point there, being able to tap lands is a strong effect. Speaking of versions of Twin with W.. from vague memories, I remember a RW version of twin was also tested somewhere .. whether it had a thread of it's own or it's buried somewhere in the twin thread I can't remember exactly. In addition to the Bellringer, the RW version used a second white creature that can untap, don't know the name but it looks like a human holding a torch at night.

    EDIT: remembered, it's Midnight Guard

    The White splash was played but never really did that well. The only version other than the UR version that did really good was the G version with Tarmo that played much ore of a tempo gameplan with good beatdown .

    Being able to tap down lands is big because you cannot hold up 2 mana for a counter spell, or you must just counter a Pestermite or Exarch. If bolt is your only option, then you gotta hope its a Pestermite or you lose. Pathing a 1/4 feels pretty bed especially since they untap with that extra land, and hope you have a fetch land that turn to enable Fatal Push

    With Twin in the format, it will push out Control decks even more than right now.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Bounding Krasis taps only creatures. Pestermite and Deceiver Exarch's ability to tap lands is HUGE. That's why we don't see Village Bell-Ringer ever, despite being W
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    15% of the format is still probably double what the #1 deck, Humans, is right now. If a deck must pass the "Twin Test" then that is the very definition of format warping. That is why Pod and Twin were banned. I agree very much so with pierrebai when he says Twin is just a more oppressive Storm. Most non tiered decks can't beat Storm. However, Storm has so much easier hate cards to play so that "new" decks can have game against it. Twin does not have this problem at all.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from rogue_LOVE »
    I'm always hesitant to bring custom card creation into this thread, but I've been testing a lot lately and I honestly feel like giving Control some teeth is as simple as stapling a Bolt-A-Creature mode onto Negate. (Like this.)

    Probably wouldn't put anything to Perma-Tier-1-Format-Pillar status, but it would make fair UR decks a lot less *****ty.


    That sort of card with an entwine cost would be outstanding and possibly more the kind of thing modern needs. Flexible maindeckable cards! Nice idea Smile

    Still can't get on board with burn being combo.
    The way I like to think about the difference is would I rather have selection or card draw and burn is definitely card draw. Obviously I'm not going to go pick a fight with Chapin though :p

    Here's what Chapin says in the book
    Like Storm Combo, the Lava Spike deck is about chaining together many cards towards a specific point (generally the opponent's life total) — and as you know, the Lava Spike deck simply looks like a Red Deck.

    The Lava Spike deck closes the loop, bringing us all the way back around to Red Aggro — an archetype it shares many cards with. While its mother may be Red Aggro, its father is definitely Storm Combo, an archetype that it shares much functionality with. The Lava Spike deck rides much more closely to The Philosophy of Fire than Red Aggro. While its burn spells can technically interact with the opponent's cards (specifically creatures), meaningful interaction is generally costly and painful.


    THE LAVA SPIKE DECK VS. RED AGGRO SPECIFICALLY
    The Lava Spike deck is not a particularly important archetype, and it’s certainly less influential than its close neighbor Red Aggro.
    In fact, it is — more than maybe any other macro archetype, except opposite neighbor Storm Combo — reliant on specific card availabilities and redundancies to exist, let alone thrive. As such, while Red Aggro can be found in almost every format, the Lava Spike deck is most commonly found in Extended, Modern, and Legacy formats, where red mages can exploit a critical mass of cheap burn spells (and, subtly, their opponents' mana bases) for free damage and free wins.




    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    No Frown
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    He goes into all 16 and gives examples of them in the book

    Aggro-Control and Fish are in fact often mistaken for one
    another — and in the context of a particular format, the decks will often share many individual cards. In addition, especially when comparing Fish or Aggro-Control to traditional control decks, they both tend to play the beatdown, run out a threat (whether it is a Bitterblossom or a Master of the Pearl Trident), and then use their permission to hold a lead they already have.
    The distinction between them is that Fish / Suicide Black plays out its threats and then plays out its Time Walks, whereas Aggro- Control generally plays out its Time Walks before getting in with its threats.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from Pokken »
    Understanding ramp decks is a big gap in the traditional archetypes; I've seen them referred to as midrange, combo, control and even aggro.

    In modern we lump them together because they generally stomp midrange and control by playing unanswerable threats with an overwhelming mana advantage; they break the various pyramids/circles, by beating control and midrange but losing to aggro and combo (whereas control beats combo, and midrange beats aggro, generally). If you start calling some of them combo decks it's confusing because they're invariably slower than other combo decks, and also way more resilient and better against midrange. The relationship to midrange that big mana "combo" decks have is very peculiar as well.

    Chapin seems to classify most of these decks as some degree of "Big Spell Combo" though E-tron kinda reaches over to the midrange area quite a bit. It's tough.

    My inclination would be to use Chapin's definitions I guess, but you'll find some disagreements there too.

    We need to then define the reasons/purpose or goals of such a classification.
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 16/04/2018)
    Quote from Pokken »
    So in legacy, Death and Taxes is classed as a control deck despite being awfully close to what we consider aggro in Humans.

    In my opinion, we should consider refining the classifications in modern. The distinction between midrange and control is very blurry in particular -- how many restoration angels do you have to play before your UW control deck is a midrange deck, for example?

    We should also probably be thinking about aggro-control decks like Humans/Merfolk as quite different than true aggro decks, and also probably think about which ones have combo elements (e.g. Hollow One has some substantial comboish turns).

    In particular, Hollow One functions more like a combo deck than an aggro deck in many ways (in that it beats aggro decks and is faster than them).

    TL;DR I think a lot of what the perceived problems in modern are is based on a classification problem. People with an agenda are aggressively classifying everything as aggro.

    I HATE the "big mana" lump. Titanshift and Amulet are combo decks, Tron has its many variants, E-Tron is very different than the other Tron variants, and Tooth & Nail is very different than them!

    If we take Patrick Chapin's book, Next Level Deckbuilding, he categorizes each deck into 4 Major archetypes:

    • Control
    • Aggro
    • Combo
    • Midrange

    and 16 minor archetypes that fall beneath a major archetypes:

    Aggro
    • Red Aggro
    • Linear Aggro
    • Swarm
    • Fish/Suicide Black

    Control
    • Tap-Out
    • Draw-Go
    • Lock
    • Combo-Control

    Midrange
    • Rock/Junk
    • True Midrange
    • Non-Blue Control
    • Aggro-Control

    Combo
    • Big Spell
    • Traditional Combo
    • Storm
    • Lava Spike (Burn)

    If we use this as a baseline, I think its the best way to go about categorizing them
    Posted in: Modern Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Amulet Titan
    What do you guys think about Shalai, Voice of Plenty?
    Posted in: Big Mana
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