Took a look at your decklist and realized that Knowledge Pool and Possibility Storm are missing. From what i remember, you loved those cards. Might have missed the post, what was our reasoning for eventually removing them?
Here's what I said originially (post 104): I enjoyed the randomness and chaos it created and it was also somewhat helping me digging for better cards. Now that WotC printed a couple of really good top-tier cards for mono-red, I don't think we need any filler anymore, every card is good and powerful on its own. What I said isn't really exact. I should say that Possibility Storm was usually helping my opponents more than me. Knowledge Pool is a really weird card. It's a fun card. I encourage everyone to play both cards if they like chaos, and I could add them back in the list one day, now that I'm playing with a different playgroup. It's just that we don't get to tutor these in Norin, so I prefered at the time to focus more on the other enchantments, all doing a similar thing for Norin and his friends. In short, P-Storm and K-Pool didn't make me win any game by themselves, if not only for the fact that some opponents don't know their own deck and are doing nearly anything in the hope to destroy that kind of effect.
Anyways i'm here to share a game i had a few days ago. I was playing a 1v1 against my friend using my Borborygmous deck. Basically i was having my ass handed to me because i was stupid enough to play Gauntlet of Might + Sculpting Steel that game (who could resist). I'm down to 4 life. My opponent has about 20 life. He has 27 permanents on the battlefield, I have about 14.
I topdeck a Warp World, proceed to play some cards to even the playing field, putting my opponent at 24 Permanents to my 19. I play Warp World.
At this point i tell my friend that i think i've won. He seems skeptical and he says play it through. I look over to his side of the board and i spot what seems to be like 10+ lands, and a...Furnace of Rath. We resolve the Warp World.
Marshal triggers for 2 tokens. Each are 2/2. They deal a total of 8 damage.
I sac Marshall to Goblin Bombardment. 2 Damage
2 Tokens etb. 8 damage.
I sac the 4 tokens. 8 damage.
I tap 5 lands for 10 mana, Bounce and play Ignus 10 times for 6 damage each -> 60 Damage.
Then sac him for 2 damage.
Total Damage: 88 Damage
It really shows how good Warp World can be used in a defensive situation. Thanks for sharing, I'm happy to see that I'm not the only thinking it's one of best card of the deck. Furnace of Rath is crazy though, Norin doesn't need that double-edged sword, even though it won you that game, that was in your opponent's deck and it made him lose. The only general I'd ever consider this with is probably Purphoros.
Okie so what's the morale of the story? I think we need to pay more attention to "etb trigger" density. My take on Norin probably has the highest density among the other lists on the site, and even then I only hit a measly 2 "etb trigger" creatures out of 19 permanents. Cards like Beetleback Chief or Goblin Marshal may not be cards we actively search for when we play Norin. They do still contribute to the consistency and strength of the deck in my opinion. Beetleback is still pretty weak considering and can stay removed (i'll keep mine in till a suitable replacement arrives), but Marshal represents 5 bodies in one card, which is a pretty difficult deal to find in mono red.
5 bodies but not at the same time. Only 4 simultaneously, which is the same as Siege-Gang Commander and less than Battlesphere. My point here is I don't recall ever hardcasting Goblin Marshal. 6 mana is a lot, I prefer casting Wurmcoil any day over this, it's more damage (and lifegain) with Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge, so the tokens really only matters with Warp World, Purphoros and Impact Tremors. It's just that I listed every token producing effects and I feel like I already have a lot and it's already working the way it should. I don't know at what point I have to keep the ETB token generating density that high. And I'm just swapping a creature that produces tokens for another one that does the same thing, with 3 creatures on the battlefield simultaneously instead of 5-1 but a lot of added value. It's a hard decision, but I think Goblin Marshal had to go. If you look closely at my mana curve, I've now got only 4 spells at 6 mana (Chandra, Duplicant, Surge and Wurmcoil), and 2 at 7 mana (Battlesphere and Warp World).
Lastly, i'd like to get your opinion on Chaos Warp and Commune with Lava. How have your experiences been with these cards (post tuck rule for chaos). I'm considering the removal of chaos warp either for another permanent (to reduce non-permanents) or for commune with lava. I still feel as though the deck has enough card draw, but other lists seem to be running more than i do, and commune to lava does seem somewhat appetizing.
I totally feel you on Chaos Warp, I noticed that I use it on my own permanents more than ever and it's probably a sign. It's still one of the really rare card to deal with enchantments though, don't you think? I'm really hesitant when considering to remove it. But it's definitely less good with no tuck. What do you do against enchantments, more specifically? We've got Confusion, Warp World, and I also play O-Stone and P-Vault. It's probably not that bad with 4 cards, O-Stone being recurrable too. I really don't know. That spot could be used to add back P-Storm in the deck or just one more Mountain. Or Marshal. I don't know. What do you think?
Commune with Lava: I still appreciate the card every time I draw it, I usually cast it on my main phase for all my mana minus 3 (X must be at least 4, and usually you want 6 or 7, but it depends on the situation). This way, I can usually play all the cards if needed, using 2 land drops, a 4-drop on the turn I played it (18 4-drops in the deck, and only 16 cards over 4-cmc), and whatever else the turn after. I usually do this when it's the last card in my hand. YMMV, obviously, but it's sometimes better than Wheel of Fortune, not giving any cards to your opponents.
How do you feel about the amount of card draw you have? It looks quite light to me.
Crescendo of War is a two-edged sword. I'm not too sure how many tokens the deck manages to produce in a given game. Keep in mind that token decks typically generate between 10-30 tokens each game, so you'll want similar numbers if you plan to use Crescendo.
If you are planning to use Delaying Shield, you could also consider Phyrexian Unlife.
Parallax Wave is an insanely strong card. Moreso with the new Opalescence. You'll love it. You should also give more weight to Dictate of Heliod, considering it'll keep your Heliod tokens alive through Starfield of Nyx, and can also be used as a neat combat trick.
Needless to say, mono-white has a hard time to draw cards. But with Heliod, we always have something to do and we get card advantage, with isn't card draw but still.
We've got Enlightened Tutor to find any of these. I know it's still pretty narrow. If you have suggestions, I wouldn't hate having one or two more cards, that's for sure. I know about Staff of Nin, but it's 6 mana, doesn't draw immediatly. I think we have to consider all the card advantage this deck has, still. Heliod produces enchantment creatures. Crucible + fetch is awesome, really. Scroll Rack does a lot to get any form of card advantage card. Also, boardwipes are sometimes card advantage.
On Crescendo of War, I realize that. I don't want to play it before having 8 mana per turn (2 Heliod per turns). But when I have enough mana to produce multiple tokens, I think it's just a really powerful effect and can win the game on its own. I have to watch for Avenger of Zendikar, that's for sure. It's not a turn-4 play. But played carefully, I'm pretty sure it's one of the most powerful card of the deck.
Phyrexian Unlife works great with Delaying Shield. I totally forgot that one. Still, I'm not it's worth it, because by itself, all Phyrexian Unlife does is adding 10 extra life after you hit 0, and that's if nobody holds Krosan Grip in case you do something crazy. I'm not sure I want to depend on that too much.
Parallax Wave is insane, yeah. Dictate of Heliod has always been a consideration. I will need to start playing the deck first, but it's my sideboard right now, and really near making the cut. I will see what enchantments are underpar and probably try it. It's 5 mana though, would have been awesome at 4 mana (same as Heliod tokens), but we can't have everything I guess.
I don't think there is any scenario where Vesuvan can enter the battlefield as a Caged Sun, lol. Not in the actual decklist at least, and that would be really complicated even using any card BESIDES Song of the Dryads... ;-)
Well I think it shouldn't do anything to the modern format it's been out for a while now and this is just a reprint. But on the off chance that people just kinda forgot bout his existence n wofc wanted to bring it to light. I'd say it could do something... Not the biggest impacting card but I'll put my money on it having its own broken scenero. On a goblin flood it could put players in bad shape. I know I've seen players talking bout rabble master n him recking some maybe control decks? Seeing as there aren't very good answers for early game drops.
Yeah, a reprint of what was a non-legal Modern card before. People didn't forgot about his existence!! You forgot about what the Modern format is lol
The more I think about it, the more I don't think I will play it. I'll stick with the goblin theme as much as possible, even if Norin is a non-goblin general. Goblins are plan B, and I always like to have a plan B.
as long as you run goblin chieftain, that makes all the more sense i suppose.
Well... as they say... only fools don't change their minds.
As tribal support, I currently run 14 goblins with Moggcatcher. I can break them into 5 categories: powerful goblins (Welder, Kiki-Jiki), toolbox cards (Sharpshooter, Stinscourger, Scrapper, Settler, Assassin), token generators (Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander, Krenko), tutors (Matron, Moggcatcher) and tribal goodstuff (Chieftain, then Assassin and Krenko are also considered in this category). The only one I didn't mention is Squee, he is probably in his own category all by himself.
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: this is by far better than Beetleback Chief. Strictly better if we don't take into account the goblin tribe. But I never played that one, because I always played Goblin Marshal instead, because it's 5 goblins instead of 3, which is more than Siege-Gang Commander, and I sometimes need it with Moggcatcher to win if Siege-Gang Commander is already gone for an alpha strike with Chieftain and Krenko (both Marshal and Siege-Gang represents 4 attackers at the end, since Marshal has to be sacrificed). Now, if I don't have Goblin Marshal, what's next best? Mogg War Marshal. It represents 3 cards in the lovely 1R cost, but only 2 attackers. Will it make a huge difference if I remove either the big or the small Marshal to add Pia and Kiran? No, not really. This is like plan C... after Siege-Gang is gone... and this is just when winning with Moggcatcher, because let's face it, 6 mana for Goblin Marshal is a lot, it's not a card I want to see in my opening hand. Mogg War Marshal is totally fine because it's 2 mana, it can block a couple of times or give me extra cards with Skullclamp really early game when I dig for more lands.
With all these considerations... I will give a try to Mr. and Ms. Nalaar and remove Goblin Marshal. Flying tokens are better. Artifact tokens are better. Add to this the ability of Siege-Gang Commander, even at 2R, and this is just too good to pass. It can sac Wurmcoil, or even Duplicant for recursion with Welder (well, anything with Welder is gonna be extra value). I can sac Myr tokens, and I can sac my opponents' artifacts that I stole with Confusion in the Ranks. It's repeatable and doesn't need haste. It's just really great. I was skeptical when they spoiled it, like I was with Daretti a couple of months ago, but after a couple of good nights of sleep and the excitation building up with the imminent release of Origins... here we go.
And good catch! I think your on to something here... For DNLL's code of honor opponents cards are allowed to contribute to a combo. They're much too much trouble to work over, and if an opponent gives you the means to win that's their own loss.
At worse this is a "pay 2 life: trigger landfall" which is definitely useful.
That's infinite mill for all my opponents with Radiant Fountain and Hedron Crab, so I still want to be careful with that, but according to osieorb18's maths, I need one more mana to make it work (0 life if I have Radiant Fountain, let's suppose), and it seems that I can't get that extra mana with the cards I'm currently playing (need the help of my opponents).
Code of honor... it's more that I can't prevent my opponents from giving me the cards to win. If they Donate me Zealous Conscripts, I will get Kiki-Jiki, and if they play Mycosynth Lattice, I will cast Vandalblast. This is just me, trying to win the game, with the cards I play. Always trying to do the most optimal play. This is why I don't want to play infinite combos: the deck will get quickly boring, because the best play to win the game will almost always be to get the same combo, and the best way to build the deck will be to focus on that combo. It's just something I don't like, so I do all my best to avoid it. I did it in Norin when I removed Zealous Conscripts. I used to play a Zedruu deck and won every game by Forking Enduring Ideal, getting Paradox Haze, Enchanted Evening and Opalescence on the next turn. It was somehow fun because of how complicated that was to win the game that way, but every game ended the same way, until my opponents decided to kill me first every game for playing such an horrible lock/combo. So here I am, saying every time I enter a new playgroup: I don't play any infinite repeatable combo that would ruin an otherwise great multiplayer game. The infinite interaction with Opalescence and Parallax Wave is easy to stop and doesn't win a game, it just kills (exiles) creatures while it's there. It's not any worse than Confusion in the Ranks with Norin: deal with it, or don't play creatures. Soft-lock, non-infinite and non-deterministic combo. This is also what stax is: a soft-lock. Sunder is the nearest I will ever get to play a card that could be an auto-scoop for my opponents, but it's also a good card by itself, with 2 or 3 mana-rocks and Reliquary Tower, that just makes the game interesting and gives me an edge with some extra-mana although I'm not playing a mono-green ramp deck (mono-green will hate me).
I've gotten a bit closer (or farther). What if you cast Phyrexian Metamorph without using it's ETB (while having Caged Sun on the battlefield). Then made Mutavault into a creature and used Shapeshifter to make it a copy of Metamorph. Then played Vesuva as a copy of Mutavault/Metamorph which uses metamorph's ETB to become another Caged Sun, of course this would deprive us of Vesuva itself, which is a necessary piece of the puzzle elsewhere...
Still it's an idea.
I thought of this too. But it doesn't work; Vesuva would enter as a copy of Mutavault/Metamorph, as a Mutavault, because of timestamps...
Timestamps aren't really considered here, only this: 706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
So, for all intented purposes, the copy becomes the card it copies with whatever is written on that card initially (copying an animated Mutavault makes an unanimated Mutavault). Timestamps are involved if multiple effects make an object copy something else, like Shapesharer's ability activated multiple times targetting the same creature (this is quite obvious in this case).
Wow, this is great, thank you for the in-depth analysis. I don't mind combo with my opponent's cards as previously stated, if I steal Zealous Conscript from player B and player C plays Kiki-Jiki while I have Roil Elemental in hand... well, just too bad, game over!
Having Metamorph enters the battlefield as a land is interesting, it's not something I considered at all with Mutavault (or even with the artifact lands I dropped lately). I guess not playing the Medallion is important here, since it would go infinite more easily if so (still complicated and narrow though).
Thank you for reformatting the list, I just didn't have time to do it yet and since I'm editing it on Decked every day, it was complicated to stay up-to-date on MTGS.
Barrin seems strong for more staxy plays, he's good by himself and being able to sac Storm Cauldron when it hinders me more than my opponents could be relevant too. I should probably make a spot for him, he's even a Wizard and doesn't care about summoning sickness.
Don't forget that lands could tap for 4 mana (5 for Coral Atoll with Vesuva, but only once?) with Lens, Caged Sun and Metamorph. But Metamorph is also the only way to play continuously untapped lands.
2 activations of Jar mean you put aside your hand, draw 7, do what you want, put aside what's left of it and draw 7 again, do whatever you want, go to the end step, both Jar triggering to make you discard your hand and take back one pile set aside. The only difference is that you can stack the triggers to either make every player get back their original hand, or to get back the second hand set aside.
So I really don't see how my opponents get any advantage of this, besides the fact that I'm milling them for 14 assuming they don't play anything during my turn.
Barrin is really interesting though, good suggestion. Tutorable and never a dead draw, really. Sac outlet for any permanent.
Flameshadow Conjuring could be potentially good, yet i feel that it has a better home in Kresh or some other "creature matters" deck.
I don't feel that this is really the case; it's another one of those cards that when the dust settles, gives us a lot more output of useful triggers to work with.
Well the rule has always been when they cost that much they should be winning by themselves. That clearly does not meet that requirement. At minimum it requires something with etb triggers in play so you can duplicate Norin. And extra red mana every time you want to use it. And probably playing other creatures as well to duplicate them too.
All in all feels very win more to me. But gaka seems to like it so I'm sure he'll test the hell out of it and give us a full report.
Gaka still plays Conjurer's Closet according to the front page. This is a win-more card.
Each players have their own preferences when playing a deck. I can play Jareth in my mono-white only because it's the first rare I opened in a pack, even if it's not really good. It all comes down to personal choices and this is what defines the format. This is why EDH is so cool. If you like abusing Myr Battlesphere, then you will like the interaction with Closet and Flameshadow, especially with Ogre Battledriver and Kiki-Jiki.
Pia and Kiran is the only interesting card in this set in my opinion. It's a really good card, it's just a matter of theme/flavour at that point, because it's definitely superior to the 4-CMC goblin alternative, and it can give serious competition to Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander too. I'm really starting to consider it, flying creatures are just good in this format, and I probably don't need to have that many tutorable goblins doing nearly all the same thing. It also generates artifacts, which is also a good thing in this deck. Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter and Gamble, and the activated ability is just a really good and relevant bonus too. This could make Ugin's Nexus more playable you know, having Welder and Daretti already.
Yeah, Time Spiral untaps lands. Not sure why I didn't think about it earlier.
To be honest, I wasn't sure about keeping that card in the list, I'm not fond of giving 7 cards to my opponents. Actually, what do you think of Memory Jar instead? With Academy Ruins, we can do it twice if we have the mana in the same turn, or just once a turn which is good too. With Patron, we can get all the lands in play. And this is usually really one-sided overall, depending on opponents keeping mana or not and playing lots of instant spells. This could be a suitable replacement for Time Spiral, although I always have Seer's Sundial as a tutorable artifact for card draw. Jar is a little faster.
And it's cheaper (in price) than Time Spiral, and it's not like I want to find any reasons to buy a Timetwister. Still got Elixir for overall recursion in the deck.
For the Medallion, I'm playing 32 compatible cards for it (I don't count Vedalken AEthermage). I know it can ramp into Patron faster, but with 20+ artifacts, I feel this deck wants mana rocks. I will see when I start playtesting it but no plans to include it in the original list. I feel it's like Dream Chisel in Ixidor: working with 25-30 cards but a dead draw in some opening hand compared to Mind Stone and other tapped 2-CMC mana rocks allowing a turn 3 Thran Dynamo.
I got myself 80+ cards right now and playtested with some proxy.
I am considering removing Sigil of the Empty Throne... Heliod's token do not trigger it, which means that it gives me at most 1 token every turn... It is not very performing at 5cmc in my opinion...
Yeah, I look forward to test it. With 35 enchantments, if it's not good enough, I can't imagine another deck playing it. 4/4s are good but it would be better if it triggered for itself (for enchantments ETB instead of being casted, now that would be great).
Got my hands on 90 cards for the deck, only 10 missing. I'll be ready to start playing the deck as soon as I get my hands on Starfield of Nyx, which should be July 17th (except if someone gets 1 on prerelease and wants to trade it).
Kutheon's Tactics is disappointing. It's exactly the kind of card a white weenie blitz deck wants, but too weak.
That werewolf throwback card wins all the fvavor points.
Isn't it better than Righteous Charge, or comparable to Marshaling Cry? I have a white token pauper deck and I'm strongly considering replacing Righteous Charge (which was uncommon in its last print, btw).
Kytheon's Tactics1WW
Sorcery
Creatures you control get +2/+1 until end of turn.
Spell Mastery — If there are two or more instant and/or sorcery cards in your graveyard, those creatures also gain vigilance until end of turn. (Attacking doesn't cause them to tap.)
Well, this is likely to replace Righteous Charge. +2/+1 instead of +2/+2 but spell mastery is really easy to get in this deck, and vigilance should be more useful than the additional toughness in most situations, whether it's for a post-combat Triplicate Spirits or just to have blockers. Could take Marshaling Cry spot too, but I think the cycling and flashback really offer a lot of value in slower matchups.
It really shows how good Warp World can be used in a defensive situation. Thanks for sharing, I'm happy to see that I'm not the only thinking it's one of best card of the deck. Furnace of Rath is crazy though, Norin doesn't need that double-edged sword, even though it won you that game, that was in your opponent's deck and it made him lose. The only general I'd ever consider this with is probably Purphoros.
5 bodies but not at the same time. Only 4 simultaneously, which is the same as Siege-Gang Commander and less than Battlesphere. My point here is I don't recall ever hardcasting Goblin Marshal. 6 mana is a lot, I prefer casting Wurmcoil any day over this, it's more damage (and lifegain) with Pandemonium/Warstorm Surge, so the tokens really only matters with Warp World, Purphoros and Impact Tremors. It's just that I listed every token producing effects and I feel like I already have a lot and it's already working the way it should. I don't know at what point I have to keep the ETB token generating density that high. And I'm just swapping a creature that produces tokens for another one that does the same thing, with 3 creatures on the battlefield simultaneously instead of 5-1 but a lot of added value. It's a hard decision, but I think Goblin Marshal had to go. If you look closely at my mana curve, I've now got only 4 spells at 6 mana (Chandra, Duplicant, Surge and Wurmcoil), and 2 at 7 mana (Battlesphere and Warp World).
I totally feel you on Chaos Warp, I noticed that I use it on my own permanents more than ever and it's probably a sign. It's still one of the really rare card to deal with enchantments though, don't you think? I'm really hesitant when considering to remove it. But it's definitely less good with no tuck. What do you do against enchantments, more specifically? We've got Confusion, Warp World, and I also play O-Stone and P-Vault. It's probably not that bad with 4 cards, O-Stone being recurrable too. I really don't know. That spot could be used to add back P-Storm in the deck or just one more Mountain. Or Marshal. I don't know. What do you think?
Commune with Lava: I still appreciate the card every time I draw it, I usually cast it on my main phase for all my mana minus 3 (X must be at least 4, and usually you want 6 or 7, but it depends on the situation). This way, I can usually play all the cards if needed, using 2 land drops, a 4-drop on the turn I played it (18 4-drops in the deck, and only 16 cards over 4-cmc), and whatever else the turn after. I usually do this when it's the last card in my hand. YMMV, obviously, but it's sometimes better than Wheel of Fortune, not giving any cards to your opponents.
Currently: Skullclamp and Seer's Sundial, Mind's Eye
Card advantage: Tithe, Gift of Estates, Land Tax, Replenish, Open the Vaults, Plea for Guidance, Mobilization, Heliod, Sacred Mesa, both Elspeths, Crucible of Worlds, Endless Horizons
We've got Enlightened Tutor to find any of these. I know it's still pretty narrow. If you have suggestions, I wouldn't hate having one or two more cards, that's for sure. I know about Staff of Nin, but it's 6 mana, doesn't draw immediatly. I think we have to consider all the card advantage this deck has, still. Heliod produces enchantment creatures. Crucible + fetch is awesome, really. Scroll Rack does a lot to get any form of card advantage card. Also, boardwipes are sometimes card advantage.
On Crescendo of War, I realize that. I don't want to play it before having 8 mana per turn (2 Heliod per turns). But when I have enough mana to produce multiple tokens, I think it's just a really powerful effect and can win the game on its own. I have to watch for Avenger of Zendikar, that's for sure. It's not a turn-4 play. But played carefully, I'm pretty sure it's one of the most powerful card of the deck.
Phyrexian Unlife works great with Delaying Shield. I totally forgot that one. Still, I'm not it's worth it, because by itself, all Phyrexian Unlife does is adding 10 extra life after you hit 0, and that's if nobody holds Krosan Grip in case you do something crazy. I'm not sure I want to depend on that too much.
Parallax Wave is insane, yeah. Dictate of Heliod has always been a consideration. I will need to start playing the deck first, but it's my sideboard right now, and really near making the cut. I will see what enchantments are underpar and probably try it. It's 5 mana though, would have been awesome at 4 mana (same as Heliod tokens), but we can't have everything I guess.
Yeah, a reprint of what was a non-legal Modern card before. People didn't forgot about his existence!! You forgot about what the Modern format is lol
As tribal support, I currently run 14 goblins with Moggcatcher. I can break them into 5 categories: powerful goblins (Welder, Kiki-Jiki), toolbox cards (Sharpshooter, Stinscourger, Scrapper, Settler, Assassin), token generators (Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal, Siege-Gang Commander, Krenko), tutors (Matron, Moggcatcher) and tribal goodstuff (Chieftain, then Assassin and Krenko are also considered in this category). The only one I didn't mention is Squee, he is probably in his own category all by himself.
Looking at token generators, I've got 4 goblins. To this list, I add Genesis Chamber, Myr Battlesphere, Wurmcoil Engine, Trading Post, Kher Keep and Springjack Pasture. Mogg Infestation also considered. I always said Norin was played really differently than Purphoros as a general, because Purphoros will focus more sorceries to generate their tokens (Firecat Blitz effects: faster, more efficient, but also doesn't do much without Purphoros).
Pia and Kiran Nalaar: this is by far better than Beetleback Chief. Strictly better if we don't take into account the goblin tribe. But I never played that one, because I always played Goblin Marshal instead, because it's 5 goblins instead of 3, which is more than Siege-Gang Commander, and I sometimes need it with Moggcatcher to win if Siege-Gang Commander is already gone for an alpha strike with Chieftain and Krenko (both Marshal and Siege-Gang represents 4 attackers at the end, since Marshal has to be sacrificed). Now, if I don't have Goblin Marshal, what's next best? Mogg War Marshal. It represents 3 cards in the lovely 1R cost, but only 2 attackers. Will it make a huge difference if I remove either the big or the small Marshal to add Pia and Kiran? No, not really. This is like plan C... after Siege-Gang is gone... and this is just when winning with Moggcatcher, because let's face it, 6 mana for Goblin Marshal is a lot, it's not a card I want to see in my opening hand. Mogg War Marshal is totally fine because it's 2 mana, it can block a couple of times or give me extra cards with Skullclamp really early game when I dig for more lands.
With all these considerations... I will give a try to Mr. and Ms. Nalaar and remove Goblin Marshal. Flying tokens are better. Artifact tokens are better. Add to this the ability of Siege-Gang Commander, even at 2R, and this is just too good to pass. It can sac Wurmcoil, or even Duplicant for recursion with Welder (well, anything with Welder is gonna be extra value). I can sac Myr tokens, and I can sac my opponents' artifacts that I stole with Confusion in the Ranks. It's repeatable and doesn't need haste. It's just really great. I was skeptical when they spoiled it, like I was with Daretti a couple of months ago, but after a couple of good nights of sleep and the excitation building up with the imminent release of Origins... here we go.
tl;dr:
- Goblin Marshal
- Shivan Gorge
+ Pia and Kiran Nalaar
+ Mountain
13 goblins instead of 14, but Moggcatcher is still awesome and Goblin Chieftain is still worth it.
On Shivan Gorge: the effect is just not worth it.
Code of honor... it's more that I can't prevent my opponents from giving me the cards to win. If they Donate me Zealous Conscripts, I will get Kiki-Jiki, and if they play Mycosynth Lattice, I will cast Vandalblast. This is just me, trying to win the game, with the cards I play. Always trying to do the most optimal play. This is why I don't want to play infinite combos: the deck will get quickly boring, because the best play to win the game will almost always be to get the same combo, and the best way to build the deck will be to focus on that combo. It's just something I don't like, so I do all my best to avoid it. I did it in Norin when I removed Zealous Conscripts. I used to play a Zedruu deck and won every game by Forking Enduring Ideal, getting Paradox Haze, Enchanted Evening and Opalescence on the next turn. It was somehow fun because of how complicated that was to win the game that way, but every game ended the same way, until my opponents decided to kill me first every game for playing such an horrible lock/combo. So here I am, saying every time I enter a new playgroup: I don't play any infinite repeatable combo that would ruin an otherwise great multiplayer game. The infinite interaction with Opalescence and Parallax Wave is easy to stop and doesn't win a game, it just kills (exiles) creatures while it's there. It's not any worse than Confusion in the Ranks with Norin: deal with it, or don't play creatures. Soft-lock, non-infinite and non-deterministic combo. This is also what stax is: a soft-lock. Sunder is the nearest I will ever get to play a card that could be an auto-scoop for my opponents, but it's also a good card by itself, with 2 or 3 mana-rocks and Reliquary Tower, that just makes the game interesting and gives me an edge with some extra-mana although I'm not playing a mono-green ramp deck (mono-green will hate me).
If Metamorph is a 0/0 creature that doesn't die due to Caged Sun, and you turn Mutavault into a Phyrexian Metamorph through Shapeshifter's ability, Mutavault becomes a Phyrexian Metamorph and isn't a land anymore. If you play Vesuva at that moment, you can't choose Mutavault, because it's not a land anymore. Just keep that in mind.
Timestamps aren't really considered here, only this:
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The "copiable values" are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and "as . . . is turned face up" abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
So, for all intented purposes, the copy becomes the card it copies with whatever is written on that card initially (copying an animated Mutavault makes an unanimated Mutavault). Timestamps are involved if multiple effects make an object copy something else, like Shapesharer's ability activated multiple times targetting the same creature (this is quite obvious in this case).
Having Metamorph enters the battlefield as a land is interesting, it's not something I considered at all with Mutavault (or even with the artifact lands I dropped lately). I guess not playing the Medallion is important here, since it would go infinite more easily if so (still complicated and narrow though).
Thank you for reformatting the list, I just didn't have time to do it yet and since I'm editing it on Decked every day, it was complicated to stay up-to-date on MTGS.
Barrin seems strong for more staxy plays, he's good by himself and being able to sac Storm Cauldron when it hinders me more than my opponents could be relevant too. I should probably make a spot for him, he's even a Wizard and doesn't care about summoning sickness.
Don't forget that lands could tap for 4 mana (5 for Coral Atoll with Vesuva, but only once?) with Lens, Caged Sun and Metamorph. But Metamorph is also the only way to play continuously untapped lands.
So I really don't see how my opponents get any advantage of this, besides the fact that I'm milling them for 14 assuming they don't play anything during my turn.
Barrin is really interesting though, good suggestion. Tutorable and never a dead draw, really. Sac outlet for any permanent.
Each players have their own preferences when playing a deck. I can play Jareth in my mono-white only because it's the first rare I opened in a pack, even if it's not really good. It all comes down to personal choices and this is what defines the format. This is why EDH is so cool. If you like abusing Myr Battlesphere, then you will like the interaction with Closet and Flameshadow, especially with Ogre Battledriver and Kiki-Jiki.
Pia and Kiran is the only interesting card in this set in my opinion. It's a really good card, it's just a matter of theme/flavour at that point, because it's definitely superior to the 4-CMC goblin alternative, and it can give serious competition to Mogg War Marshal, Goblin Marshal and Siege-Gang Commander too. I'm really starting to consider it, flying creatures are just good in this format, and I probably don't need to have that many tutorable goblins doing nearly all the same thing. It also generates artifacts, which is also a good thing in this deck. Tutorable with Imperial Recruiter and Gamble, and the activated ability is just a really good and relevant bonus too. This could make Ugin's Nexus more playable you know, having Welder and Daretti already.
To be honest, I wasn't sure about keeping that card in the list, I'm not fond of giving 7 cards to my opponents. Actually, what do you think of Memory Jar instead? With Academy Ruins, we can do it twice if we have the mana in the same turn, or just once a turn which is good too. With Patron, we can get all the lands in play. And this is usually really one-sided overall, depending on opponents keeping mana or not and playing lots of instant spells. This could be a suitable replacement for Time Spiral, although I always have Seer's Sundial as a tutorable artifact for card draw. Jar is a little faster.
And it's cheaper (in price) than Time Spiral, and it's not like I want to find any reasons to buy a Timetwister. Still got Elixir for overall recursion in the deck.
For the Medallion, I'm playing 32 compatible cards for it (I don't count Vedalken AEthermage). I know it can ramp into Patron faster, but with 20+ artifacts, I feel this deck wants mana rocks. I will see when I start playtesting it but no plans to include it in the original list. I feel it's like Dream Chisel in Ixidor: working with 25-30 cards but a dead draw in some opening hand compared to Mind Stone and other tapped 2-CMC mana rocks allowing a turn 3 Thran Dynamo.
Yeah, I look forward to test it. With 35 enchantments, if it's not good enough, I can't imagine another deck playing it. 4/4s are good but it would be better if it triggered for itself (for enchantments ETB instead of being casted, now that would be great).
Isn't it better than Righteous Charge, or comparable to Marshaling Cry? I have a white token pauper deck and I'm strongly considering replacing Righteous Charge (which was uncommon in its last print, btw).