Land destruction is a key component of a number of decks such as Jhoira of the Ghitu and Norin the Wary. Its not particularly pleasant to deal with, but it's a valid tactic nonetheless. Ramping up and casting Worldspine Wurm on T5-6 is not pleasant for the other players either. Honestly the only thing that I have problems with are decks like Malaren of the Mornsong who just tutor up the same stupid combo every time.
Norin? I've been playing this deck for more than 2 years and don't recall the last time I destroyed a land. All I've got is Goblin Settler to kill that Nykthos, that's about it.
With that said, I'm building a Patron of the Moon based around Sunder and I used to play an Avacyn deck with Worldslayer. I don't see how killing everyone with Avacyn+Worldslayer is any different than playing Tooth and Nail into Mike+Trike. I don't mind stax either. Where I have a problem is when a player plays Strip Mine, Crucible of Worlds and decides to lock out one player and the game basically becomes a 1v1 between the 2 other opponents. I know that some general are being hated right off the bat, but still, we have to remind ourselves that this is a game, and at the end, we are playing this game to have fun.
Ok, so 2 new interesting green cards this morning.
Evolutionary Leap: Not really impressed by this one. Doesn't do anything by itself so it's already card disadvantage, then you have to sac creatures to get a random one from your deck into your hand (not in play). This is a fair Birthing Pod. Not good enough IMO.
Animist's Awakening: Genesis Wave for 2 less mana, but working only for lands and with a condition. It's a good card, but it's not at its best in Hua Tuo with only ~13 instants/sorceries to get the spell mastery condition. In short, Genesis Wave is a million times better than this. It actually competes against Boundless Realms in the decklist, and I think Boundless Realms is far better too.
New self-reanimating creature: Despoiler of Souls. As we would expect, it can't block. The problem is the cost, we need to exile 2 creatures from our own graveyard. Not gonna happen!
Edit: Got to talk about Necromantic Summons too: basically, a worse Beacon of Unrest. It competes with Makeshin Mannequin, which is more aggressively costed, instant speed but can only target cards in my own graveyard (I don't really consider the sac part as a con with Horobi). It obviously comes after Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead and Necromancy too. So it's pretty far on the reanimations spells list. I think I'd play Strands of Night over this if I ever wanted more reanimation spells.
Oboro Breezecaller does go infinite with Nykthos, Patron, and 6 or more devotion. Tap 2 islands and Nykthos, make 6 blue, activate Breezecaller untapping Nykthos and returning an island to your hand. 4 mana floating, use 1 to use Patron to put the island back down, 3 mana floating, use two to activate Nykthos, you're back to a previous state with 1 more mana from the cycle.
You're right. Not sure which of these 2 cards is the best if I had to choose. Untapping Thawing Glaciers, Riptide Laboratory, Academy Ruins or even Mutavault and Soldevi Excavations is fun. Also, I'm playing Nykthos in my 4 other decks.
(I don't play in a meta that uses Eldrazi very often and we never use infinite combos... but okay)
A turn 4 or 5 Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon can suck, but my answer still stands. Mono-green's best way of dealing with flyers it to put people on the defensive as fast as possible. Looking at your deck it feels like there are a handful of solutions for what it probably just a handful of potent flying threats - how many times do you get slapped around with an unsolvable creature?
Spidersilk Armor is useless and you already have 7 cards that can take care of Skithiryx. You also have a bunch of ways to tutor them out. If you water down your deck with answers it doesn't make sense given that the goal of the deck is to put ground pressure on people.
I know that Spidersilk Armor is useless. As is saying that the solution is Craterhoof Behemoth... I already play plenty of these and it doesn't win 4 or 5 player games by itself, believe me.
Creatures are easy to tutor and to recur, Hornet Queen does the job for now, I playtested it after posting this thread and I love it so far, it has great syenrgy with everything in the deck and it's never a dead draw.
The problem with flying creatures is mostly when they are in the command zone and get in play fast. Being able to block or destroy Khaalia can make the difference between winning and losing. I'm just happy to have at least one answer, although it won't always work, it's there when I need it mid-game.
I actually like the direction it's going right now, even without Amulet. Land Equilibrium is totally awesome with lands like Coral Atoll or artifacts like Khalni Gem. Sunder gets good by itself with all the mana rocks too. Saprazzan Skerry works surprisingly good here too. A turn 3 Mana Breach is totally good, especially after I played a mana rock, I can play Thran Dynamo the next turn and Land Equilibrium with only 1-2 lands in play. It's just awesome.
Multiple win conditions, I'm happy about that. This deck can drop 6-8 lands easily in 1 turn, which turns Hedron Crab into a 2-3 turns clock and both Windrider Eel and Adventuring Gear into lethal weapons. Even with landfall, I don't want fetchlands, because I don't need it, it would just remove lands from my deck, which is not something I want except if I go to a way higher land count. I don't really need to shuffle either.
Lots of recursion with Time Reversal and the always underrated Elixir of Immortality to gain tons of life when needed (Riptide Laboratory and Trinket Mage are doing a great job there, thank you). Shapesharer is another great find, although it loses changeling while activating its ability. It works with Mutavault too, and both are moonfolks.
So this deck basically just plays mana rocks and use lands as ressources that can be returned to hand.
How to win: mill (Hedron Crab), draw 80+ (BSZ for 20 with Uyo), Mana Leak soft lock (Soratami Savant), Land Equilibrium soft lock, Sunder with or without Cyclonic Rift 1-sided reset, tokens army with Meloku, steal creatures with Shackles and Roil Elemental, Tezzeret's ultimate (never ult Tezz in any deck, but with ~20+ artifacts, I can safely say that it's a win condition too).
Does Oboro Breezecaller go infinite without Amulet of Vigor? I don't think it does, so that thing would be good too with Nykthos or even Thawing Glaciers for free card advantage. Is there any other land in mono-blue that taps for more than 2? Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins but it's pretty risky, so apart from these 2?
This gets asked about every 6 months here and my answer is always the same....
Craterhoof Behemoth
Avenger of Zendikar
Kamahl, Fist of Krosa
Kozilek, Butcher of Truths
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Ant Queen
Hornet Queen
Etc etc.
He should be playing that 7/7 Flying Dragon and thinking, "****, I can't attack because I need to use it to block." You are the creature threat and people should be responding to YOUR creatures. Not the other way around. It's like you are driving a tank and there's a guy with gun in front of you and you want to figure out how to take his gun away. Run his ass over.
Yeah, I read your answer when the question was asked 6 months ago, and since you are always giving this answer, it's getting asked every 6 months.
Man... not everyone plays in the same meta, we don't all want to win with Eldrazis or infinite combos. I totally fail to understand how Behemoth + Avenger of Zendikar will help me against a turn 4 or turn 5 Skittle. Let's say that I manage to cast both before turn 5 through Tooth and Nail (which is non-tutorable in mono-green)... then what? I have 4 opponents, 120 damage to do with a haste Behemoth? Oh well...
I play a deck that cheats creatures into play, in a format where creatures tend to die the turn they're played. I asked for solutions against flyers, creature more specifically because it's tutorable and recurrable in the case it gets destroyed. Avenger of Zendikar totally fails, but thanks for the suggestion anyway.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Spidersilk Armor, it is really easy to tutor in mono-green (obviously) and it's as much reactive as Avenger of Zendikar.
The Great Aurora
Exciting new spoil for EDH players this morning BUT I don't think it is really useful in Hua Tuo. I know that you can tap 20 mana, pay 9, get ~20 new lands and replay lots of stuff for 29 mana until passing the turn, but your opponents get to keep their Cyclonic Rifts and friends. Warp World is better in that way.
It's better in a UG shell with Time Warps. Anyway, interesting option. Wave of Vitriol on steroids dealing with creatures. Still, I will stick to the more conventional and tutorable Ulvenwald Tracker and Duplicant for now.
Now, getting to the creatures. I want to add Skullmulcher, because this card is so awesome. A replacement effect to sac creatures and draw cards, all that on a 3/3 body that gets bigger for all the spells caring about creatures' power in my deck (there are a couple actually). It's also a 5-drop, something I've been missing a lot in terms of creatures. With these additions, I need to remove 2 cards and those are 2 creatures. Solemn Simulacrum is an easy cut for me, it doesn't work with Green Sun's Zenith and as I said earlier, Oracle of Mul Daya is better at 4 mana in terms of card advantage and ramp and deck synergy, and if I just want a cheap ramp, I got plenty of those at 2 and 3 mana, and I finally have both the new Nissa and Yavimaya Elder to draw cards at 3 mana (and both totally destroy Solemn Simulacrum in terms of synergy and flavor for this deck IMO). The second cut is harder, especially in mono-green, but it has to be Genesis. Hua Tuo is sitting in my Command zone and does a similar job without taking a spot in the decklist. Yes, Genesis provides some sort of card advantage by not cancelling your draw step, but if I don't play it, I'm drawing something else than Genesis too, and let's face it, drawing Genesis sucks. I need to return at least 2 creatures with it (a 6-mana investment and generally a little bit more to put Genesis in the yard) to start really getting any card advantage over Hua Tuo. The synergy with Fauna Shaman and Survival of the Fittest is there, but I rarely tutor Genesis anyway, because I've got plenty of better plays to do and don't want to waste 3 precious mana when I can pretty much do the same thing with Eternal Witness right away, without waiting a full turn.
As for Concordant Crossroads and Putrefax, I'm always getting to the same conclusion about how narrow these cards actually are. Blightsteel Colossus is bigger and indestructible, and both Chord of Calling and Call of the Wild sort of give it haste. Besides, infect is totally stupid in EDH, I hate it. Giving my opponents a whole turn to answer that monster is totally ok with me, especially since it's still a little bit complicated to answer. It still synergizes well with the rest of the deck, drawing 11 off Momentous Fall is great. It also can't be reanimated and I always have Homeward Path (although hard to tutor) if I get Bribery'ed.
I liked sticking it on mimic vat when I had it unlike Sidisi or grey merchant your not risking a key card to disenchant but the sac stick was pretty awesome. I think that was your best option for how you like to play has lots if synergy with the deck and complements Horobi quite well. Body's that do stuff on etb are always good options with reanimate spells as well.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a great upgrade compared to the underwhelming Sudden Spoiling (goodstuff card).
Well, Ulvenwald Tracker already won me a game I would have lost otherwise, so there we go. The interaction with Scryb Ranger is cute.
Meta shift... I need to add back Bane of Progress. Also considering Surrak, the Hunt Caller if I keep Blightsteel, or Concordant Crossroads if I swap Blightsteel with Putrefax (another old consideration, that card works nicely with Hua Tuo and can kill an opponent in 2 quick swings, or sometimes only 1 with Behemoth).
Cutting cards is the harder part. I don't know how bad I need Genesis, it's basically a second (and most of the time better) Hua Tuo. Courser of Kruphix is in a weird spot too, it doesn't win me enough life (I have Scavenging Ooze and Momentous Fall for that, or High Market) and I always end up tutoring Oracle of Mul Daya. Courser is 3 mana too, like me general. I like the cute interactions with Boundless Realms and Genesis Wave but, is that enough? Garruk's Horde is really expensive. Solemn Simulacrum is something I never tutor for, I always end up getting Oracle at 4 mana, since it's just better in this deck.
I really don't know exactly what I will end up cutting, but changes are imminent.
This is what I have right now: http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/83577
The little changeling dudes can surprisingly do some work by being moonfolks (even Mutavault). 40 lands but Thawing Glaciers and Glacial Chasm don't produce mana, so it's more like 38. Not sure if Boseiju is worth it.
I could add Phantasmal Image, it's a good clone. Copying a Moonfolk for instant speed Patron isn't that bad either.
Any notable omission? Ovinomancer seems really slow to me, and the artifacts copying activated abilities might be a little win-more, I'm not sure. I got plenty of mana accelerators.
I should probably add Foil or Pact of Negation, I don't know. I'm not a fan of countermagic, but Thwart has an obvious synergy late game. I forgot the depletion land but it will be there. I think there is room for improvement.
Sudden Spoiling is basically a 3-mana Darkness. Got it in my opening hand today and after drawing Corpse Dance, I thought about how good would be Fleshbag Marauder/Merciless Executioner instead. Besides Grave Pact, which is complicated to setup from an empty board position, I don't have any way to easily make my opponents sac a creature, so I think this is it.
Obviously I will play the zombie over the new orc, just for flavour. Also note the great synergy with Mikaeus there. It's a good sac outlet with bonus, cheaper to play than Sidisi or Disciple and sometimes with a better reward (killing my opponents' creatures).
I correctly tagged Urborg, which is the card in the same cycle as Hammerheim that we are talking about. There are tons of cards with similar names, I can't really answer as to why, but it is what it is. ;-)
Norin? I've been playing this deck for more than 2 years and don't recall the last time I destroyed a land. All I've got is Goblin Settler to kill that Nykthos, that's about it.
With that said, I'm building a Patron of the Moon based around Sunder and I used to play an Avacyn deck with Worldslayer. I don't see how killing everyone with Avacyn+Worldslayer is any different than playing Tooth and Nail into Mike+Trike. I don't mind stax either. Where I have a problem is when a player plays Strip Mine, Crucible of Worlds and decides to lock out one player and the game basically becomes a 1v1 between the 2 other opponents. I know that some general are being hated right off the bat, but still, we have to remind ourselves that this is a game, and at the end, we are playing this game to have fun.
Evolutionary Leap: Not really impressed by this one. Doesn't do anything by itself so it's already card disadvantage, then you have to sac creatures to get a random one from your deck into your hand (not in play). This is a fair Birthing Pod. Not good enough IMO.
Animist's Awakening: Genesis Wave for 2 less mana, but working only for lands and with a condition. It's a good card, but it's not at its best in Hua Tuo with only ~13 instants/sorceries to get the spell mastery condition. In short, Genesis Wave is a million times better than this. It actually competes against Boundless Realms in the decklist, and I think Boundless Realms is far better too.
Edit: Got to talk about Necromantic Summons too: basically, a worse Beacon of Unrest. It competes with Makeshin Mannequin, which is more aggressively costed, instant speed but can only target cards in my own graveyard (I don't really consider the sac part as a con with Horobi). It obviously comes after Reanimate, Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead and Necromancy too. So it's pretty far on the reanimations spells list. I think I'd play Strands of Night over this if I ever wanted more reanimation spells.
You're right. Not sure which of these 2 cards is the best if I had to choose. Untapping Thawing Glaciers, Riptide Laboratory, Academy Ruins or even Mutavault and Soldevi Excavations is fun. Also, I'm playing Nykthos in my 4 other decks.
I know that Spidersilk Armor is useless. As is saying that the solution is Craterhoof Behemoth... I already play plenty of these and it doesn't win 4 or 5 player games by itself, believe me.
Creatures are easy to tutor and to recur, Hornet Queen does the job for now, I playtested it after posting this thread and I love it so far, it has great syenrgy with everything in the deck and it's never a dead draw.
The problem with flying creatures is mostly when they are in the command zone and get in play fast. Being able to block or destroy Khaalia can make the difference between winning and losing. I'm just happy to have at least one answer, although it won't always work, it's there when I need it mid-game.
Multiple win conditions, I'm happy about that. This deck can drop 6-8 lands easily in 1 turn, which turns Hedron Crab into a 2-3 turns clock and both Windrider Eel and Adventuring Gear into lethal weapons. Even with landfall, I don't want fetchlands, because I don't need it, it would just remove lands from my deck, which is not something I want except if I go to a way higher land count. I don't really need to shuffle either.
Another weapon is Roil Elemental.
Lots of recursion with Time Reversal and the always underrated Elixir of Immortality to gain tons of life when needed (Riptide Laboratory and Trinket Mage are doing a great job there, thank you). Shapesharer is another great find, although it loses changeling while activating its ability. It works with Mutavault too, and both are moonfolks.
Stormtide Leviathan is another win condition, that thing works great with Caged Sun too (not Gauntlet of Power nonbo, too many people are playing basic Islands around the table). Seer's Sundial is better than Azami and this is fine, especially paired with Ghost Town and Patron of the Moon.
So this deck basically just plays mana rocks and use lands as ressources that can be returned to hand.
How to win: mill (Hedron Crab), draw 80+ (BSZ for 20 with Uyo), Mana Leak soft lock (Soratami Savant), Land Equilibrium soft lock, Sunder with or without Cyclonic Rift 1-sided reset, tokens army with Meloku, steal creatures with Shackles and Roil Elemental, Tezzeret's ultimate (never ult Tezz in any deck, but with ~20+ artifacts, I can safely say that it's a win condition too).
Does Oboro Breezecaller go infinite without Amulet of Vigor? I don't think it does, so that thing would be good too with Nykthos or even Thawing Glaciers for free card advantage. Is there any other land in mono-blue that taps for more than 2? Lotus Vale and Scorched Ruins but it's pretty risky, so apart from these 2?
Man... not everyone plays in the same meta, we don't all want to win with Eldrazis or infinite combos. I totally fail to understand how Behemoth + Avenger of Zendikar will help me against a turn 4 or turn 5 Skittle. Let's say that I manage to cast both before turn 5 through Tooth and Nail (which is non-tutorable in mono-green)... then what? I have 4 opponents, 120 damage to do with a haste Behemoth? Oh well...
I play a deck that cheats creatures into play, in a format where creatures tend to die the turn they're played. I asked for solutions against flyers, creature more specifically because it's tutorable and recurrable in the case it gets destroyed. Avenger of Zendikar totally fails, but thanks for the suggestion anyway.
I'm surprised you didn't mention Spidersilk Armor, it is really easy to tutor in mono-green (obviously) and it's as much reactive as Avenger of Zendikar.
Exciting new spoil for EDH players this morning BUT I don't think it is really useful in Hua Tuo. I know that you can tap 20 mana, pay 9, get ~20 new lands and replay lots of stuff for 29 mana until passing the turn, but your opponents get to keep their Cyclonic Rifts and friends. Warp World is better in that way.
It's better in a UG shell with Time Warps. Anyway, interesting option. Wave of Vitriol on steroids dealing with creatures. Still, I will stick to the more conventional and tutorable Ulvenwald Tracker and Duplicant for now.
Now, getting to the creatures. I want to add Skullmulcher, because this card is so awesome. A replacement effect to sac creatures and draw cards, all that on a 3/3 body that gets bigger for all the spells caring about creatures' power in my deck (there are a couple actually). It's also a 5-drop, something I've been missing a lot in terms of creatures. With these additions, I need to remove 2 cards and those are 2 creatures. Solemn Simulacrum is an easy cut for me, it doesn't work with Green Sun's Zenith and as I said earlier, Oracle of Mul Daya is better at 4 mana in terms of card advantage and ramp and deck synergy, and if I just want a cheap ramp, I got plenty of those at 2 and 3 mana, and I finally have both the new Nissa and Yavimaya Elder to draw cards at 3 mana (and both totally destroy Solemn Simulacrum in terms of synergy and flavor for this deck IMO). The second cut is harder, especially in mono-green, but it has to be Genesis. Hua Tuo is sitting in my Command zone and does a similar job without taking a spot in the decklist. Yes, Genesis provides some sort of card advantage by not cancelling your draw step, but if I don't play it, I'm drawing something else than Genesis too, and let's face it, drawing Genesis sucks. I need to return at least 2 creatures with it (a 6-mana investment and generally a little bit more to put Genesis in the yard) to start really getting any card advantage over Hua Tuo. The synergy with Fauna Shaman and Survival of the Fittest is there, but I rarely tutor Genesis anyway, because I've got plenty of better plays to do and don't want to waste 3 precious mana when I can pretty much do the same thing with Eternal Witness right away, without waiting a full turn.
As for Concordant Crossroads and Putrefax, I'm always getting to the same conclusion about how narrow these cards actually are. Blightsteel Colossus is bigger and indestructible, and both Chord of Calling and Call of the Wild sort of give it haste. Besides, infect is totally stupid in EDH, I hate it. Giving my opponents a whole turn to answer that monster is totally ok with me, especially since it's still a little bit complicated to answer. It still synergizes well with the rest of the deck, drawing 11 off Momentous Fall is great. It also can't be reanimated and I always have Homeward Path (although hard to tutor) if I get Bribery'ed.
TL;DR:
- Genesis
- Solemn Simulacrum
- High Market
- Winding Canyons
+ Snow-Covered Forest
+ Snow-Covered Forest
+ Skullmulcher
+ Bane of Progress
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's a great upgrade compared to the underwhelming Sudden Spoiling (goodstuff card).
Meta shift... I need to add back Bane of Progress. Also considering Surrak, the Hunt Caller if I keep Blightsteel, or Concordant Crossroads if I swap Blightsteel with Putrefax (another old consideration, that card works nicely with Hua Tuo and can kill an opponent in 2 quick swings, or sometimes only 1 with Behemoth).
Cutting cards is the harder part. I don't know how bad I need Genesis, it's basically a second (and most of the time better) Hua Tuo. Courser of Kruphix is in a weird spot too, it doesn't win me enough life (I have Scavenging Ooze and Momentous Fall for that, or High Market) and I always end up tutoring Oracle of Mul Daya. Courser is 3 mana too, like me general. I like the cute interactions with Boundless Realms and Genesis Wave but, is that enough? Garruk's Horde is really expensive. Solemn Simulacrum is something I never tutor for, I always end up getting Oracle at 4 mana, since it's just better in this deck.
I really don't know exactly what I will end up cutting, but changes are imminent.
The little changeling dudes can surprisingly do some work by being moonfolks (even Mutavault). 40 lands but Thawing Glaciers and Glacial Chasm don't produce mana, so it's more like 38. Not sure if Boseiju is worth it.
I could add Phantasmal Image, it's a good clone. Copying a Moonfolk for instant speed Patron isn't that bad either.
Any notable omission? Ovinomancer seems really slow to me, and the artifacts copying activated abilities might be a little win-more, I'm not sure. I got plenty of mana accelerators.
I should probably add Foil or Pact of Negation, I don't know. I'm not a fan of countermagic, but Thwart has an obvious synergy late game. I forgot the depletion land but it will be there. I think there is room for improvement.
- Sudden Spoiling
+ Fleshbag Marauder
Obviously I will play the zombie over the new orc, just for flavour. Also note the great synergy with Mikaeus there. It's a good sac outlet with bonus, cheaper to play than Sidisi or Disciple and sometimes with a better reward (killing my opponents' creatures).
I correctly tagged Urborg, which is the card in the same cycle as Hammerheim that we are talking about. There are tons of cards with similar names, I can't really answer as to why, but it is what it is. ;-)