It might take a couple of weeks before I start playtesting it against real decks, I was already finishing another deck and don't have much time/money to spend right now on it. With that said, it's gonna be a pretty cheap deck, the most expansive card besides Wasteland (already got that) is Land Equilibrium but it's not that bad (there's one on eBay at $25).
Halimar Depths is kind of slow. I also removed artifact lands, the interaction with Tezz or Trinket isn't worth losing Islands for Extraplanar Lens. Nykthos is back with Oboro (the creature, not the land) gone, and with no way to untap Nykthos, I hardly see how there could be any infinite combo.
The most explosive start I can imagine would be a turn 1 Bubble, turn 2 Surveyor's Scope, Gush, into 3 untapped lands to cast Mind Stone and crack Bubble (probably 9-10 cards in hand, lol).
I try to avoid CipT lands as much as possible but Coral Atoll and Vesuva are both too good. Thawing Glaciers too obviously, even without being able to untap it and totally abuse it, the fact that I put it back into play every turn still makes me ramp a land every turn for nearly free.
Nearly all my creatures have flying.
The whole deck is worth 460 CAD, already got more than 300 CAD of cards for it from Ixidor, so it's not gonna be a big investment.
I think the deck covers up pretty much everything: I got removal for everything and my removal is either sorcery or artifact based, so that I can always tutor something when I need it. A lot of bounce too since the deck can be played a little bit like a stax deck depending on opening hands and my late game plan. I think it's versatile with multiple win conditions.
There might be a couple of changes still before I start playing it but I'm pretty happy with it for now.
Challenge: find any repeatable infinite loop in the deck. Specifically look for Cauldron Storm (bounce lands for free), Patron of the Moon, Riptide Laboratory with Archaeomancer and Sunder... I personally wasn't able to find anything infinite, but who knows.
Also, I have absolutely 0 sac outlet and that hurts. Claws of Gix is easy to tutor and cheap to play and use, it also works well with Land Equilibrium once I'm all set up with mana rocks. With that said, it doesn't exactly do much by itself and that's a problem. I'd like something maybe less versatile but more useful overall, if possible.
I totally forgot about Hedron Crab.
Well, just screw Oboro, I'll play Nykthos and more mana doublers instead, it's not like Oboro has any impact really.
I know it's pretty tricky, but every time I will get Oboro out, I will think how easy it is to get 2 mana doublers in play with this deck (artifacts are really easy to get in my current list) and how I can infinite combo just by playing Patron and have a relevant land (infinite life with Radiant Fountain, infinite mill with Hedron Crab, infinite p/t with Adventuring Gear and so on). So screw Oboro.
This way, we are back to your original equation I think, where I need a land producing 6 mana to get infinite landfall. Sunder, Laboratory and Archaeomancer don't even need to be mentionned since Patron puts lands into play tapped. No combo here. The only reason why it worked with lands tapping for 3 was the Oboro loop that costs 3 to untap a land, bounce one and return it to the battlefield, which is free if the land actually taps for 3.
Storm Cauldron is probably better in non-combo versions, and I will play a lot of mana rocks. This will basically work nearly the same as a stax deck: play a lot of mana rocks and bounce lands.
Tragic Arrogance is our "fixed" Cataclysm. At first glance I'm bummed that it doesn't make anyone sac lands, but then again you get some significant control over how the card plays out so that's nice. Seems pretty good to me, although not being able to get rid of a solitary problematic permanent is a major disadvantage.
Some mix between All is Dust and Planar Cleansing. Doesn't work very well if your opponent only has 1 enchantment if that's what you want to get rid of.
Seems to work with Gods, I think you can choose Gods both as a creature and then an enchantment for extra value, since it doesn't say "different" or "another".
At most, lands can tap for 3 with either Extraplanar Lens or Caged Sun or both. Although I'm planning to play Vesuva (because it's good when you can replay it), so there's a corner case: I could exile Carol Atoll with Extraplanar Lens after having Vesuva copying Coral Atoll and also having Caged Sun on the battlefield, then Vesuva would tap for 1UUU. But the problem is, if I bounce Vesuva, I'm done, I can't copy Coral Atoll again. Saprazzan Skerry has the same problem. I don't consider Vesuva copying Gaea's Cradle, I know it's infinite but I don't play Cradle. Comboing with my opponents' cards is totally valid.
With that said, it does mean that I can get infinite landfall triggers if I have 2 mana doublers. But what does it do exactly? Not much. Makes for a infinitely big swing with Windrider Eel, but it's not killing my 3 opponents in one shot like Mike+Trike for example. I can live with that kind of combo where I don't get infinite mana and just infinite ETB/landfall, if it's not an auto-win with anything else in the deck and attackers can be blocked, destroyed, etc. I play both Starfield of Nyx and Parallax Wave in my mono-white deck, it's infinite creature exile, but it's easy to disrupt (Starfield of Nyx isn't a creature) and it doesn't completely ruin the game (it's just like playing Final Judgment, but your opponents have to deal with it).
It is infinite mana with 3 mana doublers (Lens, Caged Sun, Metamorph). I might end up only playing Lens, it works better with Tezz/Fabricate or even Land Equilibrium effects (Ward of Bones). This way, I can't have more than 2 mana doublers, and that requires exiling 2 lands (except if I copy another mana doubler from an opponent, or if someone is nice/stupid enough to name blue with his Gauntlet of Power).
I'll probably play both Wasteland and Tec Edge but not the others. I will rely on these 2 to keep Cradle/Coffers/Sanctum at bay. Storm Cauldron on turn 4 is still amazing (after turn 3 Worn Powerstone), these cards are really good early game, I'll try it for sure.
Your best options have already been mentioned. I believe in descending order they are Hornet Queen, Cloudthresher, Stingerfling Spider, Tornado Elemental, Silklash Spider. But if you are desperate to Kaalia and Avacyn as you mentioned, you are kinda outta luck. Kaalia is already gross no matter how people build her, and Avacyn is one of the dirtiest cards in that deck. If you want to beat that specific scenario, make sure it doesn't come up. Like seriously. Make giant creatures and attack that player. If Kaalia is the main scenario that you are trying to solve, you currently are going to lose every time, because you have a power level difference problem. You can spend time using your mana to do durdly things and be cute, which is great and fun, but a Kaalia deck isn't going to care. It's going to get to four mana and drop gigantic things that kill you faster than spinning Sensei's Top to assist Lurking Predators is going to yield dividends. And make sure everyone knows that Kaalia is the scariest threat on the board. You aren't lying in communicating that. Any competent Kaalia deck is among the scarier things you can see in commander, and the only way to ensure you don't get run over by Avacyn in a monogreen deck is to rely on other people or knock Kaalia out of the game.
I'm usually not playing against tier-1-ish decks to be honest, but since I'm playing in multiple playgroups, it happens from time to time that I encounter Kaalia. And usually when I enter a playgroup with Kaalia at the table, most of the decks are of a much higher power-level than mine, so I'm definitely not ennemy #1, I've usually got time to set a couple of things properly and hopefully get Spike Weaver running quick enough to protect me before I can start having fun with what green does best: big creatures with huge amount of mana available.
I think Hornet Queen does everything I want, but I'll keep an eye on Cloudthresher, because I can easily play it twice in my turn by evoking it on my upkeep, put it on top of my deck with Hua Tuo and then draw it during my draw step, so it can deal with any 4-toughness flying creatures reliably (but that's about it). It also blocks flying creatures, and it's a 7/7 for 6 that works with Fierce Empath as a 4-mana removal.
Is this deck still up to date? Last update from OP is 13 months ago, so I wonder if the deck is still played and if there are any new inclusions in the last couple of sets we got.
Also, Mimic Vat. With a sac outlet in the Command zone, that could be interesting for some more moonfolk fun. Don't know if it's worth it though, since blue doesn't destroy a lot of creatures otherwise.
Speaking of which, I need sac outlets for Shackles and Roil Elemental. I've seen Xenograft mentionned somewhere, it turns on Moonfolk offering. Doesn't work if Patron of the Moon is already on the battlefield though, and it's a card not doing much otherwise. Ashnod's Altar goes infinite with Meloku+Patron, so I'm quite limited in terms of repeatable sac outlets. I need something reliable, probably artifact-based or land-based (which could be tutored with Expedition Map). High Market works fine, but I'd like an artifact even more if it could do something relevant too besides saccing creatures (High Market takes a precious Island spot).
Special note about Storm Cauldron... I'd like some more advice, I don't totally agree with ExpiredRascals here, but he has a point too:
Storm Cauldron — This is one of the most common and ubiquitous choices in Patron decks, and the problem is that it's really just not good. People like it because it has obvious synergy with Patron and goes infinite with Amulet of Vigor, but realistically, everything is broken with Patron and Amulet of Vigor. Storm Cauldron also can severely hamper you when you don't have Amulet, and in a way that is sometimes worse than its effect on your opponents. When the green deck gets to tap their Gaea's Cradle three times in one turn, they really don't care about any imposition that cauldron might represent to the rest of their mana base, and if you try to Sunder after landing Cauldron, your normally back-breaking play suddenly becomes very recoverable for your opponents. Storm Cauldron really is a trap card that you're better off without.
Thoughts? Ward of Bones might just be better with cards that don't allow opponents to get 2 land drops like Mana Breach and Overburden, but here again, if they already have Cradle in play, they can bounce it and replay it for more value. Same for Coffers. Maybe I need more Wastelands... Crucible of Worlds, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge... but this means less Islands.
Little new toy again: Erebos's Titan
Basically a 5/5 for 4 mana (including 3 of devotion), that guys gets indestructible when opponents don't have any creature (it's kind of tricky, but Horobi can make it happen). And then, if it's in the graveyard, we can return it to hand by discarding a card when a creature leaves an opponent's graveyard. Really weird ability, but it works with exile (targetted exile, delve and so much on), reanimation, or just an opponent activating Elixir of Immortality.
It's close to be playable, that's what I think. If it returned to the battlefield, it would be. But to my hand, and I need to discard... well, it's a discard outlet I guess, but a conditional one. If I have to Reanimate a creature to be able to discard a card, it kills the purpose.
[quote from="dnLL »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/614855-patron-of-the-moon?comment=31"]Guess you might not be able to add Scorched Ruins or Lotus Vale. Or you'll have to cut Oboro...
I wasn't going to anyway. Despite the synergy with Land Equilibrium, returning those 2 lands to my hand is really bad (Storm Cauldron) since I have to sac again.
One thought about Ovimancer: this dude is only good with haste. Play it, respond to its ETB trigger by activating his ability and he's already in your hand when you try to sac him. I don't think he's good otherwise, 3 mana, return 3 Islands, to maybe kill a creature the turn after and you have to start all over again... no.
Here's my most recent decklist right now, still a lot of work to do, I don't have much time these days. Sideboard cards are either considerations or just total junk that I put here to remind me of something. http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/84286
Came to post my new altered cards for my other decks and did a quick Google search for altered Norins, and a lot of people are actually posting the image of my altered Norin on other forums (actually saw someone using it as his G+ profile picture, lol). They naturally don't link to this thread (which doesn't get that much attention compared to Gaka's), but still, I'm pretty proud of getting that altered Norin.
You'll never hear me say you should change your list and run Flameshadow Conjuring. If you interpreted it that way: it's not what I meant, I just used a representative list (Gaka's would be more logical, but it hasn't been updated for a long time) to make some examples - and the only thing I wanted to say with that is that it deserves testing. I still do think so, by the way ;).
I guess our lists, but probably mainly our meta, differs too much to really compare. At least I know that in my own meta, of the seven enchantments you name (which I guess are Genesis Chamber, Impact Tremors, Outpost Siege, Pandemonium, Purphoros, God of the Forge, Confusion in the Ranks, Warstorm Surge), only CitR has been good enough to win me the game with only Norin on the field. All the others give me a fantastic evening, but also draw so much attention that I have a serious problem not to long after I've played it.
So now that we definitely agree that we are down to 12 cards (12% of the deck, not 20%), I will do a card-by-card analysis.
We do not definitely agree on this. Although I won't argue with most of what you stated above, and you might very well be right that it will prove to be a win-more card, I'm convinced that Purphoros, God of the Forge, or Warstorm Surge for that matter, is a better card with Flameshadow Conjuring on the battlefield. I do believe it has the potential to win me "more games", not "games more".
Anyhow, thanks for all the explanation. I've been playing my own list for about 2,5 years now and your plea helps me a great deal. I'll probably never go the gobbo way like you do and I'll never get my hands on a Gauntlet of Might or Imperial Recruiter, but every little bit of information helps me improve my own list just a little bit more :).
I didn't see your reply for some reason.
I play a list completely different from Gaka's. I have to thank him for the inspiration, since this is my first "real" EDH deck I ever built and it's really what got me starting building my own decks. But looking at his list, there are A LOT of cards that I find plain bad. If Purphoros isn't good enough to win in your meta, I wonder how Conjurer's Closet works. People have been playing this card in Norin for decades. I played it almost a full year. And you can't believe how happy I am to not ever run this card ever again. It's like the "win more" card by excellence: hey, it's a good Siege-Gang Commander you have here, let's blink it once a turn because my opponents either don't care or don't have any spot removal preventing me from just winning anyway with Moggcatcher.
But that's my own vision of the format, I've been playing a lot, although I'm playing a lot less since I moved to Quebec City (still having troubles to find a decent playgroup). I will do anything and everything for flavor, synergies, and to avoid bad cards in any situation. When I build a deck, I always think of it like this: what's the main theme, what's the subtheme? Then, do I have something to deal with every permanent type in Magic (Gods are considered too, since we have 15 Gods and they see a lot of play)? Are my ways to deal with a specific problems tutorable or recurrable? Then, going card by card and thinking of each cards in the deck, is there a card I mostly don't want to draw?
It's a complicated process. I have the application on my iPhone (Decked) and I'm looking at my decklists while sitting on my #2. That helps. I can find a lot of situations where Mogg War Marshal will do something. It's just because the whole deck is based around getting creatures on the battlefield. Half of the creatures on my side of the field are usually tokens. Which do remove half of the purpose of cards like Conjurer's Closet and Flameshadow Conjuring.
I never said these cards were utterly bad. Well, maybe I did. What I mean is that these cards don't fullfil any specific purpose in the deck. It's good if I have Myr Battlesphere, but if my opponent doesn't have Day of Judgment, Battlesphere is going to all the job by itself, because I also have Welder, Darreti, Kiki-Jiki, Warp World and so on... they all work great with it already. Conjurer's Closet will never replace Kiki-Jiki, which is one of the best red creature we ever got printed with Welder. That's my opinion and I stand by it.
Also, please excuse me if at any time I'm rude or anything. I'm a French Canadian and the language barrier is still here although it doesn't always look like so. Doing my best ;p
Also: all my decks work in both banlists and are certified comboless (speaking of infinite combos here, not strong synergies like tapping 10 mana to re-play 10 times Grinning Ignus when I already have Purphoros, this is not infinite and stupid, and both cards are really good in this deck ;-)).
A turn 3-4 Armageddon is a perfectly valid strategy. Lots of players mulligan into 3 landers and start shipping lands, paying life for shocks and fetches, ramping early. Armageddon essentially sets those decks back very far, allow you to set up a pillowfort or just 2 for 1 all of their ramp spells.
I'm really with you on this. Turn 1 Sol Ring, turn 2 Thran Dynamo, turn 3 Gilded Lotus into Armageddon. Or just Armageddon after Land Tax / Endless Horizons. What's wrong with that? It's a viable strategy, you will have 3 players against you and if your deck is well built, you should still be able to win.
My meta doesn't mind it much, as long as you aren't like this one player we used to play with. When he knew he could not win, he'd Armageddon and concede.
To me, it's as valid as Divine Intervention. You can't win: just start another game. Why not?
It might take a couple of weeks before I start playtesting it against real decks, I was already finishing another deck and don't have much time/money to spend right now on it. With that said, it's gonna be a pretty cheap deck, the most expansive card besides Wasteland (already got that) is Land Equilibrium but it's not that bad (there's one on eBay at $25).
Here's the updated list with 100 cards this time:
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/84538
Halimar Depths is kind of slow. I also removed artifact lands, the interaction with Tezz or Trinket isn't worth losing Islands for Extraplanar Lens. Nykthos is back with Oboro (the creature, not the land) gone, and with no way to untap Nykthos, I hardly see how there could be any infinite combo.
The most explosive start I can imagine would be a turn 1 Bubble, turn 2 Surveyor's Scope, Gush, into 3 untapped lands to cast Mind Stone and crack Bubble (probably 9-10 cards in hand, lol).
I try to avoid CipT lands as much as possible but Coral Atoll and Vesuva are both too good. Thawing Glaciers too obviously, even without being able to untap it and totally abuse it, the fact that I put it back into play every turn still makes me ramp a land every turn for nearly free.
Nearly all my creatures have flying.
The whole deck is worth 460 CAD, already got more than 300 CAD of cards for it from Ixidor, so it's not gonna be a big investment.
I think the deck covers up pretty much everything: I got removal for everything and my removal is either sorcery or artifact based, so that I can always tutor something when I need it. A lot of bounce too since the deck can be played a little bit like a stax deck depending on opening hands and my late game plan. I think it's versatile with multiple win conditions.
There might be a couple of changes still before I start playing it but I'm pretty happy with it for now.
Challenge: find any repeatable infinite loop in the deck. Specifically look for Cauldron Storm (bounce lands for free), Patron of the Moon, Riptide Laboratory with Archaeomancer and Sunder... I personally wasn't able to find anything infinite, but who knows.
Also, I have absolutely 0 sac outlet and that hurts. Claws of Gix is easy to tutor and cheap to play and use, it also works well with Land Equilibrium once I'm all set up with mana rocks. With that said, it doesn't exactly do much by itself and that's a problem. I'd like something maybe less versatile but more useful overall, if possible.
I don't remember picking Khans ever, also playing Norin. But I like having the option to do so if something like Staff of Nin is here.
Well, just screw Oboro, I'll play Nykthos and more mana doublers instead, it's not like Oboro has any impact really.
I know it's pretty tricky, but every time I will get Oboro out, I will think how easy it is to get 2 mana doublers in play with this deck (artifacts are really easy to get in my current list) and how I can infinite combo just by playing Patron and have a relevant land (infinite life with Radiant Fountain, infinite mill with Hedron Crab, infinite p/t with Adventuring Gear and so on). So screw Oboro.
This way, we are back to your original equation I think, where I need a land producing 6 mana to get infinite landfall. Sunder, Laboratory and Archaeomancer don't even need to be mentionned since Patron puts lands into play tapped. No combo here. The only reason why it worked with lands tapping for 3 was the Oboro loop that costs 3 to untap a land, bounce one and return it to the battlefield, which is free if the land actually taps for 3.
Storm Cauldron is probably better in non-combo versions, and I will play a lot of mana rocks. This will basically work nearly the same as a stax deck: play a lot of mana rocks and bounce lands.
Some mix between All is Dust and Planar Cleansing. Doesn't work very well if your opponent only has 1 enchantment if that's what you want to get rid of.
Seems to work with Gods, I think you can choose Gods both as a creature and then an enchantment for extra value, since it doesn't say "different" or "another".
With that said, it does mean that I can get infinite landfall triggers if I have 2 mana doublers. But what does it do exactly? Not much. Makes for a infinitely big swing with Windrider Eel, but it's not killing my 3 opponents in one shot like Mike+Trike for example. I can live with that kind of combo where I don't get infinite mana and just infinite ETB/landfall, if it's not an auto-win with anything else in the deck and attackers can be blocked, destroyed, etc. I play both Starfield of Nyx and Parallax Wave in my mono-white deck, it's infinite creature exile, but it's easy to disrupt (Starfield of Nyx isn't a creature) and it doesn't completely ruin the game (it's just like playing Final Judgment, but your opponents have to deal with it).
It is infinite mana with 3 mana doublers (Lens, Caged Sun, Metamorph). I might end up only playing Lens, it works better with Tezz/Fabricate or even Land Equilibrium effects (Ward of Bones). This way, I can't have more than 2 mana doublers, and that requires exiling 2 lands (except if I copy another mana doubler from an opponent, or if someone is nice/stupid enough to name blue with his Gauntlet of Power).
I'll probably play both Wasteland and Tec Edge but not the others. I will rely on these 2 to keep Cradle/Coffers/Sanctum at bay. Storm Cauldron on turn 4 is still amazing (after turn 3 Worn Powerstone), these cards are really good early game, I'll try it for sure.
I'm usually not playing against tier-1-ish decks to be honest, but since I'm playing in multiple playgroups, it happens from time to time that I encounter Kaalia. And usually when I enter a playgroup with Kaalia at the table, most of the decks are of a much higher power-level than mine, so I'm definitely not ennemy #1, I've usually got time to set a couple of things properly and hopefully get Spike Weaver running quick enough to protect me before I can start having fun with what green does best: big creatures with huge amount of mana available.
I think Hornet Queen does everything I want, but I'll keep an eye on Cloudthresher, because I can easily play it twice in my turn by evoking it on my upkeep, put it on top of my deck with Hua Tuo and then draw it during my draw step, so it can deal with any 4-toughness flying creatures reliably (but that's about it). It also blocks flying creatures, and it's a 7/7 for 6 that works with Fierce Empath as a 4-mana removal.
Speaking of which, I need sac outlets for Shackles and Roil Elemental. I've seen Xenograft mentionned somewhere, it turns on Moonfolk offering. Doesn't work if Patron of the Moon is already on the battlefield though, and it's a card not doing much otherwise. Ashnod's Altar goes infinite with Meloku+Patron, so I'm quite limited in terms of repeatable sac outlets. I need something reliable, probably artifact-based or land-based (which could be tutored with Expedition Map). High Market works fine, but I'd like an artifact even more if it could do something relevant too besides saccing creatures (High Market takes a precious Island spot).
Link to the primer: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/527500-patron-of-the-moon
Special note about Storm Cauldron... I'd like some more advice, I don't totally agree with ExpiredRascals here, but he has a point too:
Thoughts? Ward of Bones might just be better with cards that don't allow opponents to get 2 land drops like Mana Breach and Overburden, but here again, if they already have Cradle in play, they can bounce it and replay it for more value. Same for Coffers. Maybe I need more Wastelands... Crucible of Worlds, Ghost Quarter, Tectonic Edge... but this means less Islands.
Basically a 5/5 for 4 mana (including 3 of devotion), that guys gets indestructible when opponents don't have any creature (it's kind of tricky, but Horobi can make it happen). And then, if it's in the graveyard, we can return it to hand by discarding a card when a creature leaves an opponent's graveyard. Really weird ability, but it works with exile (targetted exile, delve and so much on), reanimation, or just an opponent activating Elixir of Immortality.
It's close to be playable, that's what I think. If it returned to the battlefield, it would be. But to my hand, and I need to discard... well, it's a discard outlet I guess, but a conditional one. If I have to Reanimate a creature to be able to discard a card, it kills the purpose.
One thought about Ovimancer: this dude is only good with haste. Play it, respond to its ETB trigger by activating his ability and he's already in your hand when you try to sac him. I don't think he's good otherwise, 3 mana, return 3 Islands, to maybe kill a creature the turn after and you have to start all over again... no.
Here's my most recent decklist right now, still a lot of work to do, I don't have much time these days. Sideboard cards are either considerations or just total junk that I put here to remind me of something.
http://decks.deckedbuilder.com/d/84286
I didn't see your reply for some reason.
I play a list completely different from Gaka's. I have to thank him for the inspiration, since this is my first "real" EDH deck I ever built and it's really what got me starting building my own decks. But looking at his list, there are A LOT of cards that I find plain bad. If Purphoros isn't good enough to win in your meta, I wonder how Conjurer's Closet works. People have been playing this card in Norin for decades. I played it almost a full year. And you can't believe how happy I am to not ever run this card ever again. It's like the "win more" card by excellence: hey, it's a good Siege-Gang Commander you have here, let's blink it once a turn because my opponents either don't care or don't have any spot removal preventing me from just winning anyway with Moggcatcher.
But that's my own vision of the format, I've been playing a lot, although I'm playing a lot less since I moved to Quebec City (still having troubles to find a decent playgroup). I will do anything and everything for flavor, synergies, and to avoid bad cards in any situation. When I build a deck, I always think of it like this: what's the main theme, what's the subtheme? Then, do I have something to deal with every permanent type in Magic (Gods are considered too, since we have 15 Gods and they see a lot of play)? Are my ways to deal with a specific problems tutorable or recurrable? Then, going card by card and thinking of each cards in the deck, is there a card I mostly don't want to draw?
It's a complicated process. I have the application on my iPhone (Decked) and I'm looking at my decklists while sitting on my #2. That helps. I can find a lot of situations where Mogg War Marshal will do something. It's just because the whole deck is based around getting creatures on the battlefield. Half of the creatures on my side of the field are usually tokens. Which do remove half of the purpose of cards like Conjurer's Closet and Flameshadow Conjuring.
I never said these cards were utterly bad. Well, maybe I did. What I mean is that these cards don't fullfil any specific purpose in the deck. It's good if I have Myr Battlesphere, but if my opponent doesn't have Day of Judgment, Battlesphere is going to all the job by itself, because I also have Welder, Darreti, Kiki-Jiki, Warp World and so on... they all work great with it already. Conjurer's Closet will never replace Kiki-Jiki, which is one of the best red creature we ever got printed with Welder. That's my opinion and I stand by it.
Also, please excuse me if at any time I'm rude or anything. I'm a French Canadian and the language barrier is still here although it doesn't always look like so. Doing my best ;p
Also: all my decks work in both banlists and are certified comboless (speaking of infinite combos here, not strong synergies like tapping 10 mana to re-play 10 times Grinning Ignus when I already have Purphoros, this is not infinite and stupid, and both cards are really good in this deck ;-)).
Heliod is coming right from space to Earth for the battle!
He should not go unnoticed lol
To me, it's as valid as Divine Intervention. You can't win: just start another game. Why not?