I really like Ratchet Bombs in the main though, it's just so flexible. It can get you so many 2 for 1s (if not 3-1s and more!), it can deal with Lingering Souls tokens and annoying permanents such as Assemble the Legion (I would say Detention Spehere on our Planeswalkers too, but kinda can't run any since we need Magmaquakes)
You've got Staticasters in the sideboard. Just move them over if you want to kill x/1s. Ratchet Bomb doesn't deal with Assemble the Legion unless you tick it up to 5. Ratchet Bomb steals an extra turn or two. Staticaster keeps it permanently locked down unless they have removal or Intagible Virtue.
If I were to experiment, I'd experiment maybe with my draw engine but right now I'm still happy with Forbidden. It gets what I need. Opportunity could be interesting but gets in the way of Think Twice/Forbidden flashbacks. It nets you more cards but whatever, it should be moot at that point.
If you don't have 5 mana, you need Keyrune to kill Thragtusk. Most decks running him are running him out early (see: Farseek) anyway.
2x Glaring Spotlight in the side because I would have to side out something like 10 of my removal spells. My sideboard is only 15.
1x Homicidal Seclusion because I just traded for it and I want to use it against control. Lemme be.
Replace Snapcaster with Staticaster. Max out on Turn/Burn and Far/Away. Jace/Ral
Congratulations you're now competitive against most of the meta.
Not particularly new information. Believe it or not, Staticaster is dead against some decks so more than 2x can be occasionally not great. Again, the amount of Staticasters depends on how many Boros Aggro, Aristocrats, x/1 creature decks you see in your meta. Snapcaster + Turn//Burn is slower and not great against x/1 decks but can house Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity decks. It's a give take. You can't pack 4x everything because, well, the trunk of the car isn't that big.
I think a lot of guys in the thread do reasonably well with Grixis Control, yet we usually just argue about semantics of the deck (Divination vs. Think Twice/Forbidden). The point that was made earlier is that this deck (decks) doesn't build itself and it doesn't play itself.
Build your removal around your meta and not around this thread. If you walk into an event early, poke around and get information. What are people playing in the area? What are people expecting in the area?
Control is about information, not how quickly you can kill your opponent. Contributors (that are successful with the deck) have differing approaches to Grixis Control not because some like to lose, but because they play in different metas.
There are good guidelines in this thread and good routes of play for different styles of players. Grixis is strong in a number of different ways, but you can't take each.
But there are a few things that I believe we should keep in mind:
1) Sweepers may not always be relevant. Far//Away does ok as long as tokens exist.
2) Our creatures aren't lightning fast. Be patient with your kills but that means you should win game 1 so game 3 doesn't result in a tie.
3) Use keyrunes. Note Chapin's comment that he would dump Gilded Lotus in favor of another Rakdos Keyrune. It ramps and kills multiple Thragtusks (assuming they don't have Abrupt Decay or Putrefy). In my opinion that's better than a Turn//Burn. This doesn't mean that I think you should cut Turn//Burn (I updated my list from 1x to 2x), it just means that Wizards likes us to fight creatures with creatures and we might as well adapt to an extent.
4) Cute cards can work at FNM. Elsewhere.....? Use your judgement and let us know how things turn out, we'll be here.
5) Your sideboard is as important as your maindeck.
I forget this way too often.
If you already have the grasp of Grixis Control then this post is worthless.
If you don't, Grixis Control plays like a deck that makes you think and you should appreciate that. The contributors to this thread have laid out a ton of different options for you to take. Innovate off of the work that has already been done.
We won't be able to assess M14 for Grixis until Theros. Many of the cards in the set appear to be standard sideboard cards. Outside of maybe some green fatties and this new Archangel of Thune, I don't see many threats that could really rip us up.
Right now, for 3RRRU for 4 dmg to all creatures to be relevant, the format needs to slow just a tad (Naya Blitz and R/G aggro are loling at your board wipe that is two turns slower than Esper or U/W/R).
This could occur in Theros, we just don't know.
I understand that this isn't our typical notion of control. But Young Pyromancer + Syncopates, could be a relevant option when we lose Snapcaster Mage. However, we don't have access to Boros Charm or Golgari Charm, making that threat not quite as good in our colors. An option, but likely not the most efficient build for that card.
I'm not sure how relevant Blood Baron is right now. Each time I've seen him, I've been able to kill him easily. But my sample size is small so I could've just been lucky.
You don't play Quicken and replace a removal spot. You play Quicken and replace Augur since Augur has always been awful for me.
1/3 where you may pick a card in the top 3 vs 1 mana cycler that draws you a card at worse.
I can't tell you how many times I played Augur, only to hit 2 our of 3 lands and then temporarily land stall myself or hit 3 spells only to pick 1 and then flood out. Or just whiff completely. Augur has never been game winning and is only justifiable with Restoration Angel. Everything is bigger than a 2/2 nowadays besides Voice.
Augur has been awful for everyone and people who have been playing Grixis control for months generally have moved him out or still have an odd crush on the guy (see Fabiano).
I don't play him so I'm not sure why that was your route of objection.
4x Quicken takes up removal space. It appears to be a gimmick/cute card. It definitely can work in some builds but it makes a complex deck much more complex. I'd rather play more Izzet Charms because of the flexibility and general awesomeness against aggro.
Think Twice gives you flash back targets with Forbidden Alchemy. Saying that Divination is better than Think Twice doesn't tell the whole story. The real question is, "is Divination better than Think Twice + Forbidden Alchemy?"
If you think that Divination is better for your Grixis build, then by all means.
To divert the conversation back, I would like to point out that most builds have a "cute" finisher (Consuming, Cruelties, etc.). I find them acceptable, as long as paired with Aetherling as the long-game plan, although they're never great because they die to removal.
I would suggest, after a few FNMs of trying this, when you win Game 1 with your "cute" finisher, always side him out. Inexperienced players (and some experienced players) will always over-react to threats like Cruelties and do something unneccessary like side in Slaughter Games to get it or pack specific removal. Let either Aetherling or Olivia win your games with appropriate removal.
If they're aggro or mid-range and take out creatures to pack removal you are golden. Bait-and-switch has worked roughly 5 out of the last 10 games I've played. 3 players said they took out creatures to pack more removal (I didn't ask all). This is ideal and is why playing a "cute" finisher that is faster than Olivia or Aetherling isn't horrendous.
However, this might not be the best plan of action for a local IQ. Especially if they know your deck. Something to consider.
It's not about the extra mana. It's the fact that late game we don't crap our pants against an Obzedat if we don't have a Far//Away, Snapcaster, or Olivia. The fact that we can EOT Mortars a Blood Baron of V or wipe their board with 7 mana.
Erm, I mean I'll try it for kicks. However, there's a ton of games where you'll have Quicken and try to draw into a removal spell. I do this all the time with Think Twice but if I brick I get get another with 2U. Quicken kind of works like an Aura, in that sense.
I get that we have INCREDIBLE instant speed removal in Far//Away, Turn//Burn, and now Doom Blade. But it's about the new rules change with legendaries, primarily planeswalkers. I want an instant speed solution to them, not create a duplicate. Would you not play Dreadbore if it were an instant @ UBR in Grixis?
The only difference between playing Dreadbore your turn vs. their turn is that at instant speed you can have the "don't tap out until opponent does stuff" hand. If they resolve a planeswalker they can +X or -X in response to your Dreadbore during their turn. I believe this is how this rule works but I could be wrong.
Yeah, well Doomblade kills a Thragtusk just like Dreadbore + Quicken and for one mana less. Yet, it still is a terrible play. Plus Voice.
Doomblade is a 2x in my build. Rakdos Keyrune is getting packed in. I'm now running 3x after a rough Thragtusk encounter last week. It's a reactive inclusion but I'm already so good against early game Red decks and Naya Blitz.
This is Larsson's deck from Wooster. Fabiano built it. I am unsure of the build. I'm not sure if I like the Augurs. I took mine out about a month ago. and 1x Snap doesn't seem amazing. I like to get a ton of value out of my removal.
However, only having 1x Snap would make sense if graveyard hate is heavy given rites.
I think Syncopate stinks. I'd run Dissipate over it but my meta is bomb heavy. I would imaging Syncopating a Farseek is a blowout but I wouldn't know.
After last nights FNM, I'd say 1x Aetherling is probably right. He wins when he resolves but he's not resolving until t7, which is super late if you're backpedaling.
Land: After playing 23-24 for a few months I think 24 is probably better than what I have right now. However, we should consider basics on occasion. While being obviously cheaper (for budget nerds) they also mean that we can play our third land untapped without taking 2 damage. This is not huge, but it is a consideration. I need 3 land for a fair amount of my removal and a t3 removal spell is huge against aggro/mid-rangers. Hanging out at 3-4 lands since I'm light on lands is fine. Card draw and good removal often takes care of me. Stensia Bloodhall looks really dumb and it is. However, games where I don't see finishers but most of my removal and a Vampire Nighthawk, this will close the last few points out after getting most of the way with the hawk. This card has won me a number of games. I don't understand how or why, but it does.
Creatures:Vampire Nighthawk stinks in a resonable amount of match-ups. I'm switching to Olivia. Snapcaster Mage is not a 4-of in this build. More than one in opening hand is a disaster. Aetherling does what he does. He's straightforward.
Play Far//Away, duh. Dreadbore is fine. Pillar of Flame is pretty bad in games where Voice doesn't make an appearance. I don't play in an area where kids are throwing $200 for a playset so I don't need to be overly concerned about exiling for 2 damage.
Mizzium Mortars is underrated. If you haven't tried it recently you really should because it kills a ton.
Rakdos's Return is so good. Fighting against anysort of deck that draws a ton of cards at once (Garruk, tapping out for Revelation) this makes you a bajillion times better. Often I've found myself realizing that if I play return before I play my removal, then I could have won games that I lost. It's really tempting to just burn stuff off the board given our life issues but shoving mid-range decks into top-deck at 6 life is so much better than being at 15 life and staring down a mid-range deck that's holding onto 5 cards.
Having run Blast of Genius, I can say that it doesn't really do anything great. The games that I've used it to win were games I was already winning. I have since then have taken it out for more removal. But it is funny and worth an FNM inclusion.
I get the whole Divination thing. Pilfered Plans flips stuff you might not want to flip (most are not running the full 4 Snaps so really?), so just I'd stick with Draw Two. In a Voice-filled format, I think this is a fair draw spell. Otherwise, Forbidden Alchemy and Think Twice are much better draw engine. I happen to run 4x Think Twice and 3x Forbidden and am very happy. Jace Aot is my finishing draw. He digs as well as any.
Essence Scatter is a house against mid-range decks and UWR. Bad against Voice (on the draw) and Re-animator. A lot of people don't expect it and only look for Syncopate and Dissipate mana. Snycopate is very frustrating and I've cut it for Essence Scatter. Dissipate can be dead when you get behind early.
Any spell 5 mana or over (other than 1-2x Aetherling and split cards) I am wary of in this deck. Having cards you can't cast for a number of turns is very difficult outside of a deck not running Farseek.
I think the reason Chapin's deck got as far as it did was due to the jockey and not the horse.
I will post deck-list when I figure the website out.
You've got Staticasters in the sideboard. Just move them over if you want to kill x/1s. Ratchet Bomb doesn't deal with Assemble the Legion unless you tick it up to 5. Ratchet Bomb steals an extra turn or two. Staticaster keeps it permanently locked down unless they have removal or Intagible Virtue.
2x Aetherling
1x Master of Cruelties
1x Olivia Voldaren
Instants and Sorceries: 23
2x Doomblade
4x Far//Away
4x Think Twice
2x Forbidden Alchemy
1x Mizzium Mortars
1x Essence Scatter
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Dreadbore
1x Bonfire of the Damned
1x Pillar of Flame
2x Turn//Burn
2x Dissipate
3x Rakdos Keyrune
Planeswalkers: 2
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 25
2x Island
3x Swamp
2x Mountain
2x Blood Crypt
2x Sulphur Falls
1x Dragonskull Summit
4x Steam Vents
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
1x Rogue's Passage
1x Evil Twin
3x Izzet Staticaster
2x Crypt Incursion
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Glaring Spotlight
1x Dispel
1x Rolling Temblor
1x Bonfire of the Damned
1x Turn//Burn
1x Homicidal Seclusion
If I were to experiment, I'd experiment maybe with my draw engine but right now I'm still happy with Forbidden. It gets what I need. Opportunity could be interesting but gets in the way of Think Twice/Forbidden flashbacks. It nets you more cards but whatever, it should be moot at that point.
If you don't have 5 mana, you need Keyrune to kill Thragtusk. Most decks running him are running him out early (see: Farseek) anyway.
2x Glaring Spotlight in the side because I would have to side out something like 10 of my removal spells. My sideboard is only 15.
1x Homicidal Seclusion because I just traded for it and I want to use it against control. Lemme be.
Not particularly new information. Believe it or not, Staticaster is dead against some decks so more than 2x can be occasionally not great. Again, the amount of Staticasters depends on how many Boros Aggro, Aristocrats, x/1 creature decks you see in your meta. Snapcaster + Turn//Burn is slower and not great against x/1 decks but can house Thragtusk, Angel of Serenity decks. It's a give take. You can't pack 4x everything because, well, the trunk of the car isn't that big.
I think a lot of guys in the thread do reasonably well with Grixis Control, yet we usually just argue about semantics of the deck (Divination vs. Think Twice/Forbidden). The point that was made earlier is that this deck (decks) doesn't build itself and it doesn't play itself.
Build your removal around your meta and not around this thread. If you walk into an event early, poke around and get information. What are people playing in the area? What are people expecting in the area?
Control is about information, not how quickly you can kill your opponent. Contributors (that are successful with the deck) have differing approaches to Grixis Control not because some like to lose, but because they play in different metas.
There are good guidelines in this thread and good routes of play for different styles of players. Grixis is strong in a number of different ways, but you can't take each.
But there are a few things that I believe we should keep in mind:
1) Sweepers may not always be relevant. Far//Away does ok as long as tokens exist.
2) Our creatures aren't lightning fast. Be patient with your kills but that means you should win game 1 so game 3 doesn't result in a tie.
3) Use keyrunes. Note Chapin's comment that he would dump Gilded Lotus in favor of another Rakdos Keyrune. It ramps and kills multiple Thragtusks (assuming they don't have Abrupt Decay or Putrefy). In my opinion that's better than a Turn//Burn. This doesn't mean that I think you should cut Turn//Burn (I updated my list from 1x to 2x), it just means that Wizards likes us to fight creatures with creatures and we might as well adapt to an extent.
4) Cute cards can work at FNM. Elsewhere.....? Use your judgement and let us know how things turn out, we'll be here.
5) Your sideboard is as important as your maindeck.
I forget this way too often.
If you already have the grasp of Grixis Control then this post is worthless.
If you don't, Grixis Control plays like a deck that makes you think and you should appreciate that. The contributors to this thread have laid out a ton of different options for you to take. Innovate off of the work that has already been done.
Right now, for 3RRRU for 4 dmg to all creatures to be relevant, the format needs to slow just a tad (Naya Blitz and R/G aggro are loling at your board wipe that is two turns slower than Esper or U/W/R).
This could occur in Theros, we just don't know.
I understand that this isn't our typical notion of control. But Young Pyromancer + Syncopates, could be a relevant option when we lose Snapcaster Mage. However, we don't have access to Boros Charm or Golgari Charm, making that threat not quite as good in our colors. An option, but likely not the most efficient build for that card.
I'm not sure how relevant Blood Baron is right now. Each time I've seen him, I've been able to kill him easily. But my sample size is small so I could've just been lucky.
Augur has been awful for everyone and people who have been playing Grixis control for months generally have moved him out or still have an odd crush on the guy (see Fabiano).
I don't play him so I'm not sure why that was your route of objection.
4x Quicken takes up removal space. It appears to be a gimmick/cute card. It definitely can work in some builds but it makes a complex deck much more complex. I'd rather play more Izzet Charms because of the flexibility and general awesomeness against aggro.
Think Twice gives you flash back targets with Forbidden Alchemy. Saying that Divination is better than Think Twice doesn't tell the whole story. The real question is, "is Divination better than Think Twice + Forbidden Alchemy?"
If you think that Divination is better for your Grixis build, then by all means.
To divert the conversation back, I would like to point out that most builds have a "cute" finisher (Consuming, Cruelties, etc.). I find them acceptable, as long as paired with Aetherling as the long-game plan, although they're never great because they die to removal.
I would suggest, after a few FNMs of trying this, when you win Game 1 with your "cute" finisher, always side him out. Inexperienced players (and some experienced players) will always over-react to threats like Cruelties and do something unneccessary like side in Slaughter Games to get it or pack specific removal. Let either Aetherling or Olivia win your games with appropriate removal.
If they're aggro or mid-range and take out creatures to pack removal you are golden. Bait-and-switch has worked roughly 5 out of the last 10 games I've played. 3 players said they took out creatures to pack more removal (I didn't ask all). This is ideal and is why playing a "cute" finisher that is faster than Olivia or Aetherling isn't horrendous.
However, this might not be the best plan of action for a local IQ. Especially if they know your deck. Something to consider.
Erm, I mean I'll try it for kicks. However, there's a ton of games where you'll have Quicken and try to draw into a removal spell. I do this all the time with Think Twice but if I brick I get get another with 2U. Quicken kind of works like an Aura, in that sense.
The only difference between playing Dreadbore your turn vs. their turn is that at instant speed you can have the "don't tap out until opponent does stuff" hand. If they resolve a planeswalker they can +X or -X in response to your Dreadbore during their turn. I believe this is how this rule works but I could be wrong.
It just makes Orzhov bombs better. Reckoner will be even easier to kill.
"Oh, Quicken cycles though."
Yeah, well Doomblade kills a Thragtusk just like Dreadbore + Quicken and for one mana less. Yet, it still is a terrible play. Plus Voice.
Doomblade is a 2x in my build. Rakdos Keyrune is getting packed in. I'm now running 3x after a rough Thragtusk encounter last week. It's a reactive inclusion but I'm already so good against early game Red decks and Naya Blitz.
1 Aetherling
3 Augur of Bolas
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Olivia Voldaren
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands (26)
3 Blood Crypt
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Drowned Catacomb
2 Nephalia Drownyard
4 Steam Vents
4 Sulfur Falls
4 Watery Grave
2 Rakdos Keyrune
1 Essence Scatter
4 Far
1 Izzet Charm
3 Syncopate
4 Think Twice
1 Turn
1 Ultimate Price
2 Dreadbore
3 Pillar of Flame
2 Rakdos's Return
2 Evil Twin
1 Sire of Insanity
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Aetherize
1 Negate
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Appetite for Brains
2 Duress
1 Slaughter Games
This is Larsson's deck from Wooster. Fabiano built it. I am unsure of the build. I'm not sure if I like the Augurs. I took mine out about a month ago. and 1x Snap doesn't seem amazing. I like to get a ton of value out of my removal.
However, only having 1x Snap would make sense if graveyard hate is heavy given rites.
I think Syncopate stinks. I'd run Dissipate over it but my meta is bomb heavy. I would imaging Syncopating a Farseek is a blowout but I wouldn't know.
After last nights FNM, I'd say 1x Aetherling is probably right. He wins when he resolves but he's not resolving until t7, which is super late if you're backpedaling.
3x Swamp
2x Island
2x Mountain
1x Sulphur Falls
1x Dragonskull Summit
1x Stensia Bloodhall
4x Watery Grave
4x Drowned Catacomb
4x Steam Vents
2x Blood Crypt
Creatures:
2x Aetherling
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Master of Cruelties
4x Think Twice
2x Dissipate
2x Jace, Architect of Thought
2x Bonfire of the Damned
2x Dreadbore
4x Far//Away
1x Essence Scatter
1x Turn//Burn
1x Izzet Charm
1x Pillar of Flame
1x Mizzium Mortars
3x Forbidden Alchemy
3x Searing Spear
1x Rakdos's Return
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Slaughter Games
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Crypt Incursion
2x Illness in the Ranks
1x Electrickery
1x Rakdos Keyrune
1x Rolling Temblor
2x Sever the Bloodline
1x Appetite for Brains
Some observations:
Land: After playing 23-24 for a few months I think 24 is probably better than what I have right now. However, we should consider basics on occasion. While being obviously cheaper (for budget nerds) they also mean that we can play our third land untapped without taking 2 damage. This is not huge, but it is a consideration. I need 3 land for a fair amount of my removal and a t3 removal spell is huge against aggro/mid-rangers. Hanging out at 3-4 lands since I'm light on lands is fine. Card draw and good removal often takes care of me. Stensia Bloodhall looks really dumb and it is. However, games where I don't see finishers but most of my removal and a Vampire Nighthawk, this will close the last few points out after getting most of the way with the hawk. This card has won me a number of games. I don't understand how or why, but it does.
Creatures: Vampire Nighthawk stinks in a resonable amount of match-ups. I'm switching to Olivia. Snapcaster Mage is not a 4-of in this build. More than one in opening hand is a disaster. Aetherling does what he does. He's straightforward.
Instants, Sorceries, and Planeswalkers: Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy are great. However, because of graveyard hate, Divination could be better. You can concede games where they resolve a Rest in Peace with Think Twice and Forbidden Alchemy. Divination means that you won't have dead cards when they pull their RIPs.
Play Far//Away, duh. Dreadbore is fine. Pillar of Flame is pretty bad in games where Voice doesn't make an appearance. I don't play in an area where kids are throwing $200 for a playset so I don't need to be overly concerned about exiling for 2 damage.
Mizzium Mortars is underrated. If you haven't tried it recently you really should because it kills a ton.
Rakdos's Return is so good. Fighting against anysort of deck that draws a ton of cards at once (Garruk, tapping out for Revelation) this makes you a bajillion times better. Often I've found myself realizing that if I play return before I play my removal, then I could have won games that I lost. It's really tempting to just burn stuff off the board given our life issues but shoving mid-range decks into top-deck at 6 life is so much better than being at 15 life and staring down a mid-range deck that's holding onto 5 cards.
Jace, Aot. I'm a believer.
The sideboard will always be a work in progress.
I get the whole Divination thing. Pilfered Plans flips stuff you might not want to flip (most are not running the full 4 Snaps so really?), so just I'd stick with Draw Two. In a Voice-filled format, I think this is a fair draw spell. Otherwise, Forbidden Alchemy and Think Twice are much better draw engine. I happen to run 4x Think Twice and 3x Forbidden and am very happy. Jace Aot is my finishing draw. He digs as well as any.
Essence Scatter is a house against mid-range decks and UWR. Bad against Voice (on the draw) and Re-animator. A lot of people don't expect it and only look for Syncopate and Dissipate mana. Snycopate is very frustrating and I've cut it for Essence Scatter. Dissipate can be dead when you get behind early.
Any spell 5 mana or over (other than 1-2x Aetherling and split cards) I am wary of in this deck. Having cards you can't cast for a number of turns is very difficult outside of a deck not running Farseek.
I think the reason Chapin's deck got as far as it did was due to the jockey and not the horse.
I will post deck-list when I figure the website out.
Have been playing on and off since Time Spiral.
Playing Grixis Control and B/G Control in Standard right now.
Playing Esperblade in Modern.
Thanks for having me.