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  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Ha, Underground River isn't standard.

    How have people liked Appetite in their sideboards? I'm considering going down a Turn//Burn and Evil Twin as a spot for 2x of them.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control


    Ran this at FNM at some weird shop half hour away. I didn't play well.

    1-2

    Round 1: Boros Aggro

    Game 1

    I stabilize game 1 at 16. He then Boros Charms me 3x and Warleader's Helix's me for crit the final two turns. Over by turn 7.

    Game 2

    He has double Silverblade Paladin. The first I hit with Ratchet Bomb. He pairs the 2nd with Tajic. I try to sneak in a Olivia and tap out. He plays Skyknight Legionnaire and Boros Charm double strike and gets in for crit.

    0-1

    Round 2:

    I play against a durdley monoblack Vampire deck with Crypt Ghast, Blood Arist, and Sac effect vampires.

    Game 1: I drop an Olivia. Win game.

    Game 2: I ultimate Ral. Win game.

    1-1

    Round 3: BUG mid-range

    Game 1: He durdles. I burn his creatures. I ultimate Ral and play an Olivia. Game over.

    Game 2: I mull to 6 after see a hand with 2 TTwice and land. I see a hand with Dragonskull and R mana. I stupidly keep because I see Doom Blade and Dreadbore, figuring I would draw another mana because, hey, I was on the draw. I don't for seven turns and lose the game. This one was a dumb one. Shoulda' gone to 5.

    Game 3: I burn, burn, burn and burn his creatures -- we went to turns. I -2 JaceAoT when I should have been +1 him so I could try and get off an ultimate. Eventually I run out of gas and he busts through with Kessig Cage Breakers (What? That's still a card?) which I could've bounced with Far//Away the first attack step but instead tapped out for a Rakdos's Return (whoops). I didn't even know what Cage Breakers did. I now do, unfortunately. Wrong play or what? The deck has Tracker's Instincts, which is like a TTwice for finding creatures, Mindshriek, Wolfir Avenger, Kessig Cage Breakers, and Death Rite Shaman. I don't get an answer. I lose on turn 5. That was a subpar deck. I played bad and should feel bad.

    The shop owner was standing behind me and told me, "You should splash white, play Quicken and Supreme Verdict."

    He wasn't joking.

    #ragequit

    1-2

    Retrospect:

    Well, I made some costly errors, but I'm not sold on Ral. When I ultimate him, he's great. But even that doesn't win games because I need finishers.

    I'm switching to:

    1x Ral
    2x Olivia
    2x Aetherling

    I also found that I had no where near enough card draw or dig.

    I pulled a Ratchet Bomb and a Doom Blade and am going with:

    4x TTwice
    2x Jace AoT
    2x Forbidden Alchemy

    I don't mill people. I need to find my threats and go in for the kill much sooner. I could've had game three of round 3 (I had 13 mana out) easily if I had drawn into a finisher. Foribidden Alchemy would've done the trick easily. I'm going back to 2x. We have so many creature decks outvalueing us, we can't get into a topdeck war because we blew all our steam. Card filtering (and draw if flashed back) is not something I am looking to cut again.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from spiralfire
    Alright, I changed my list. Since this is the first time I'll play Grixis, I decided I'll just go full bananas.




    Goddamn FNM is full of Bant Auras right now, so I plan on going x-0 against them.

    Do I need one more land? Any other suggestions/tune ups without changing the entire deck?


    26 land is plenty. Honestly, I bounce between 25-26. Flood seems so bad for us and our splits let us stabilize at 3-4 land, even though casting the Away part of Far isn't our definition of value city. Somebody is sure to tear this apart though. I'm just greedy and haven't been screwed yet.

    As previously mentioned, 2x Stensia seems bad but is probably fine if your mana is smooth.

    Rewind is only good if you're casting something off your mana EoT. For example, INS casts Inspiration. UWR casts Resto. Unless you have an extra mana to cast Thoughtflare or one of your split cards, Rewind is just an expensive Counterflux or Dissipate. I guess you could sink it into a flashbacked TTwice but that seems suboptimal. (edit: In retrospect, this seems incorrect. You can sink it into a graveyard for TT and have the same card advantage (not dig) as if you played Inspiration [lose Rewind, gain a card or lose Rewind and Inspiration and gain two cards]. However, this does not account for the TT you sunk into the graveyard earlier. TTwice makes it difficult to assess these things since the second card can come whenever you want it and you don't lose a card for activation, you just cycle for the first half. But I still hold onto my original assessment that with Rewind, you want to do something good with the mana you get back.)

    I presume Pillar is in side?

    If it doesn't kill Voice, it does kill Zombie decks that have been floating around FNMs since forever. 4x is a bit unnecessary because of Snapcaster.


    Lifeband Zombie


    Probably has the best home in Golgari Aggro or Jund Aggro.

    Hoogland ran him in The Rock last weekend. It worked well for him until he reached Top 8, and then there were a couple instances where Messenger would've been better. LZ only seemed good where Hoogland wanted to put pressure on. It puts up a clock and cuts off fatties. But it needs help from other dudes like Thrag or Demon. We don't have much help outside of removal, which he doesn't need to get through. We just don't run enough threats for LZ to be a good card.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Evil Twin is for Angel of Serenity and other hard to beat fatties.

    Bonfire is super slow. I run it because I run planeswalkers, but it can be really terrible in hand. I have hard cast it for 33R and 22R which hasn't been awful but it really doesn't fit in our deck well.

    However, I do like Bonfire in that I can sweep both halves of Lingering Souls. Players tend not to expect a hardcast sweeper so they will overextend against us.

    Though, in all honesty, Olivia will do that as well.

    GQ is pretty necessary right now depending on your meta. It's also a way that you don't have to waste a spell or a Snapcaster on a Mutavault.

    3x Ral Zarek seems like a bit much. The only good thing he has to twiddle is Drownyard and Aetherling. Otherwise it just becomes an expensive Lightning Bolt.

    I run 2x Ral with 2x Ratchet Bomb, 2x Keyrune, and 3 more creatures than that list. Ral helps my attackers stay vigilant, which can be a problem when we're against the ropes. Aetherling is awful as a defender but becomes much better with Ral in play. Ral's +1 is no Tamiyo impression, that's for sure.

    Outside of Hexproof (not sure how many x/1s are in that build currently), I don't know why he's got 2x Electrickery and not one more Staticaster. I think fresh ownership's call is the correct one.

    @INS

    I'm still sort of blown away on how you went 4-2 with that list. I don't have anywhere near the patience to pilot something like that. Kudos.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from Sting


    Stensia Bloodhall is a bad card.
    I test Stensia Bloodhall month ago and i find this card disappointing.
    Probably I'm wrong (because we have different game style), but i prefer play Drownyard alongside GQ or Lighthouse (usually 2-1)



    I won't disagree that Stensia Bloodhall is a bad card (it is), but it can have some function in Grixis decks. I find myself in positions where I just need to burn my opponent to the face to close the game out (I've found that I Rakdos's Return for burn more often than for discard). Stensia is a fine way to do this. However, 2x Stensia seems pretty terrible. Once in a full moon will you find that you have 12 mana open to activate both Stensia Bloodhalls. GQ definitely serves more purpose since there are so many problem lands in the format right now (Mutavault, Cavern, Gavony, Kessig, Vault etc.).

    Drownyard seems to find more place in the draw-go rather than tapout/superfriends, since EoT is where things happen for that deck.

    Lighthouse is likely the best of our 3 function lands since we can dig with it. Although, it isn't an alternate win-con which Drownyard is and Stensia is not.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from Jazenn
    Keyrune also helps late game right? It dodges the boardwipe and can slowly chip an opponent down, like an alternate wincon.

    Im a newer standard player looking to get into Grixis. My current "meta" runs a lot of U/W/x control decks. Any particular cards that help Grixis in these matchups? I can think of Slaughter Games, Ghost Quarter, maybe Keyrune when using it like I said? Anything else?

    Also have a question on draw package, how is 4 Think Twice and 1 Opportunity sound? Is Jace necessary for draws?


    UWR is really easy for us because we kill their creatures pretty easily. Maybe if they resolve a massive Revelation things might be tough, but if you get an Aetherling in, they can't get him (duh). They don't know how to play against other control decks with UWR, typically. Ratchet Bomb is good for Detention Sphere and Geist. Rolling Temblor isn't good but might be good enough for that matchup. Cute cards can do the trick sometimes (i.e. Homicidal Seclusion) from the sideboard. You can side in more expensive spells, such as more Opportunities, because as long as you kill their first Geist, you should be able to get to plenty of mana for your more expensive spells.

    Jace isn't necessary. I run him but plenty of others don't. If you run Magmaquake, consensus is that you can't run planeswalkers.

    You might be a tad light on card draw. We'd have to see your list.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from jxx
    Don't Keyrune... seriously I've never understood why people think it's good to run that card. You don't need ramp. Are you really going to cast a Keyrune turn 3 or leave mana up for counters?


    Well, with most aggro decks, t3 (when we're playing Dissipate -- the list above plays 4x? --) they've already established a serious board.

    B/W Humans: t1 Champ of Parish t2 Gather Townsfolk t3 Necromancer

    On the draw, counters can kinda' suck. Aggro decks t2 are playing Burning Tree Emmissary into something half decent (if they have a clue about how to mulligan). If you're on the draw, those counters do nothing.

    If you're playing tapout, Keyrune is fine. If you're playing the draw-go counter version, I can understand leaving Keyrune to the side. But acting like Keyrune is a card that should never be considered is to leave a lot out of the picture. Keyrune is a fine stopgap. It gives you time if you screwed up the early game (I don't know about you, but I do this all the time). Counters do the same thing but only if you're ahead of them. Let's also not act like aggro runs a bunch of removal. Because they don't.

    I'm somewhere in the middle between tapout and draw-go because I dislike having a Dissipate in hand against an aggro deck. I prefer to play removal end step and uptap into hopefully overpowering spells t5 on up. But on the other hand, Essence Scattering whatever wipe resilient fatty they're dropping is so much easier than fusing a Turn//Burn. It's preference.

    Of course, preference has to be backed up by sound reasoning, but I think Keyrune has legitimate reason for being in some people's builds due to it's qualities previously mentioned.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control


    2-0-1 at an 8 man FNM, which is a horrible sample size.

    Round 1: UWR Flash

    G1: Wiped up his Boros Reckoner, Geist, and Resto with Doomblade, Away, and Snap into Doomblade. Killed some other dudes in the process but really can't remember. Finished it out Cruelties.

    G2: Stuck at 4 lands. He counters my Away, hardcast Bonfire, and 2nd Away in 3 consecutive turns. I Snap into an Away finally killing it, leaving me at 2. He plops an Assemble the Legion. I lose.

    G3: Counter war. I land an Aetherling Turn 1 after time. He's at 19 life unfortunately. We tie.

    0-0-1

    Round 2: Naya Humans

    G1: Hose with Izzet Charm and Burn. Then double Keyrune for the kill.

    G2: Same thing. Exactly the same thing. Keyrunes are fun.

    1-0-1

    Round 3: BW Necromancer Humans (Necromancer, Blood Artist, Cartel Aristocrat)

    G1: He loads up. I hose as well as I can. I drop Cruelties t5. He swings out except with Necromancer. I Dreadbore Necromancer. Get in with Cruelties. I get the game.

    G2: He gets a ton of value out of his cards. I don't Dreadbore Sorin early enough. Double emblem is a blow out. He Tragic Slips my Staticaster. Grixis Control Faceplant.

    G3: He gets me down to 4. He's at 22. I've been extracting his Necromancers and Blood Artists with spot and 2 Ral Zareks (only time I saw him all event and I just used him to lightning bolt some 0/1 Artists and 2/2 Necromancers) and then doing my best board wipe impression of his lingering souls and townsfolk. I Dreadbored his Lilliana (he sided her in, not entirely sure why) and then Snapcastered it into Sorin. He only gets 1 emblem. He Tragic Slips my first Staticaster. We get into top deck mode which I should win because of Think Twice. I lock him down with another. I get in there with 2 Snapcasters until I Rakdos's Return him for 8. Whew.

    2-0-1. 2nd place out of 8. I got two Biovisionaries in my 4 prize packs. *looks around game shop to donate to casual players*

    Observations:

    U/W/R flash is easy if they are light on counters. Glaring Spotlight is very very not necessary. Typical me overreacting to a previous experience. I'd probably just run Devour Flesh main over Doom Blade, which is useless against way too many decks (though I would also consider Ultimate Price as well since human decks with sac outlets or Aristocrats need spot removal for their trigger dudes).

    Dreadbore sucks. Until you see a planeswalker. I'm glad it's maindeck.

    I'm going up to 3x Staticaster in SB.

    I'll playtest Ratchet Bomb a bit since I'm running Ral main but have nothing good to twiddle in the main. I'm sure Staticaster is awesome but people still like mid-range and it's pretty dead in that matchup unless you get 3x or 2x and a Ral on board.

    I'm going to 2x GQ. People like their cute lands.

    I used to be under the impression that I had to run Forbidden Alchemy with Think Twice. I'm not sure this is the case. Forbidden Alchemy is cool and all but I'd rather just run more removal (or, heh, go to 26 lands). Dig isn't as much as a problem for me as it was 6 months ago when I first started running Grixis Control. Jace is fine because you have the option of +1ing. I understand I'll usually just -2 him but the card flexibility is cool.

    Aetherling is so slow. I love him but it's like waiting on Santa Claus some times, especially if they throw removal at him which just extends the game.

    I'm mostly just sad that I didn't see Reanimator so I could've Crypt Incursioned or Evil Twinned them.

    Gotta' play so much standard before our perfect mana rotates.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    SG is sideboarding for dummies. I may not see it at a PTQ but I know I'll see it at any standard shop event.

    One win con seems super dependent on predicting your meta.

    On the other hand, acting like Grixis Control can take care of everything would seem to be folly. Development did a good job of keeping things balanced for the past year.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on I do not like Bonfire of the Damned.
    Blue no longer has Ponder, thus making Bonfire not as good. Some Grixis builds currently run Magmaquake because of the instant speed. Jund runs it because it doesn't care if it gets stuck in hand (not really an issue though because of Farseek which makes a hard cast feasible), it just wants to top deck it often and blow the way open for its creatures.

    Not a lot to complain about this card.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from i-never-smile
    If you're going to play Inspiration, just play Inspiration.


    This.

    Also, since a lot of us have started adding Ral to our lists due to his success in block, and since Olivia will soon be leaving -- and since Opportunity is only good in slow formats -- what's the concensus on Mercurial Chemister + Ral? Obviously, as card draw, this is just as slow as Opportunity. However, it would appear as though he functions as a recurring Blast of Genius to creatures. He dies easily to removal but a lot of builds are light on that right now.

    Obviously, Olivia is a lot better right now, but I'm definitely going to try to pick up a few to give him a spin.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [MCD] Illnes in the Ranks and Curse of Death's Hold
    Quote from i-never-smile


    Granted, if you're fully in Grixis, then you want 4 Staticasters first and then probably the Illness, and then Curse(s) after that--depending on how much space you have. Cabal Aristocrat+Lingering Souls is one of the most defining archetypes of the format, so boarding heavily against it is acceptable. Especially if you're using the Staticasters against aggro decks as well (it's nuts against Naya Blitz and the mono-white and mono-green decks), it's perfectly reasonable to just play a couple extra lockdown tools in the board to supplement 4 Staticasters.



    3BB is prohibitive for Grixis since many are already running the split removal cards (Far//Away and Turn//Burn).


    Having run Illness in the Ranks, I can say that it's only good against decks that resolve a bunch of souls and throw them at your head (and Assemble the Legion, I guess). And then if they resolve an Intangible Virtue you're kinda' out of luck.

    Izzet Staticaster does what Illness does but generally (yes, I know it isn't turn 1) better because with Ral Zarek, you can hit Burning Tree Emissary and other aggro duders. However, if you're not running Ral Zarek or other sorts of things that make Staticaster awesome, the superiority of the card is not as obvious. You can also try Electrickery since Red decks tend to run a lot of x/1s. It's more versatile but worse against, say, Assemble the Legion.

    Ultimately, Illness and CoDH are so meta dependent that much of what we say is only guesswork.

    But yeah, I run 3x Staticaster mainboard and 1x Illness sideboard. Like others suggested, it's fine in the meta.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Quote from bacepi
    How the heck is game 1 hard besides 2 caverns on Acidic Slime and Restoration Angel? We gained Doom Blade against AoS. We have Olivia and what seems like inf removal. We have some amount of counterspells. Reanimator literally cannot beat a resolved Aetherling. I don't get it ...

    Games 2 and 3 are a joke if it gets to it.

    Reanimator isn't what it used to be.


    Spot removal decks loses out against a deck that gets creatures more than once. You can't 1 for 1 a deck like rites.

    A resolved Olivia would do the trick because it's removal in itself. Duh. But not everyone runs her.

    Reanimator can beat a resolved Aetherling if the clock is in their favor. I mean, you're playing Aetherling t7 and they should be at least 8 mana due to Farseek, consistent land drops due to Mulch, and dorks . Thrags and Serenities etc. Like us, they have access to the graveyard giving them card advantage. If they develop a graveyard game 1, you'd be surprised how far they can go.

    If you have a mid-range that beats Thragtusks (see Olivia or Rakdos Keyrune) then I would say that Game 1 is a blow out. However, if you're draw-go, racing to an Aetherling can put you behind on the clock. Oh, yeah. And most builds are dumping Acidic Slime on your head, making your mana hungry deck severly lacking.

    But regardless of which style you play, you should come out 2-1 or 2-0 due to the fact that either your mid-range beats them or your sideboarding results in a blowout.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Game 1 against rites can be difficult for us, simply because getting more than 4x Thragtusk or multiple uses from a single Angel of Serenity is a pain. Game 2 and 3 should be blowouts in our favor. If it's in your meta, commit 4-5 sideboard cards. Crypt Incursion can be a bit of an awkward sideboard card because it's really only awesome (though some do mill with drownyard and life gain with this card but that seems like a lot of bother) against rites. Rakdos Charm does a lot more than just kill the snot out of rites.

    Everyone hit on Slaughter Games, so 4x SG may have more utility than Crypt Incursion and Rakdos Charm, since it sides in against control matchups as well.
    Posted in: Standard Archives
  • posted a message on [Primer] Grixis Control
    Haunted Mail Plate?

    Probably too slow, the equip cost is prohibitive, but at least an entertaining thought for when Olivia rotates. It's flexibility as a blocker and then pumper for your Snapcasters is interesting. Outside of lacking lifelink and having a painful equip cost, it's likely better than Homicidal Seclusion.

    But in all likelihood Theros will give us something better.

    When Selesnya/Simic starts going ham with rotation, Ratchet Bomb could be, well, the bomb. Outside of Doomblade, Essence Scatter, or an awkward Think Twice, t2 doesn't have a lot for us. I suppose siding out for control matchups would have to happen, but whatever, who plays control anymore?
    Posted in: Standard Archives
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