I think the new tiering system is awful and would rather go with Sheridan's data. I don't trust MTGsalvations tiering system whatsoever and will not, I mean---seriously, Bant Company is tier 1 now?
Whoever is in charge is doing a poor job of it
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- Starforger
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May 3, 20179
Spsiegel1987 posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)Posted in: Modern Archives -
May 2, 201712
idSurge posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)We would be remiss, to also not thank KTK for his efforts and time over the years.Posted in: Modern Archives
As plainly evident already it was thankless work.
So thanks Sheridan, hope you are on to good things. -
May 2, 20174
wpgstevo posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, metagame, and more! (3/13 update)Wow, of all the things to read.Posted in: Modern Archives
Ktkenshinx, if anything, was too beholden to data. To accuse him of ignoring data and inserting his own opinion seems ridiculous to me. From every interaction I've ever had with Ktkenshinx, he leans on the metagame metrics he devised to give the most accurate depiction of the metagame available - and even acknowledged any deficiencies he could discern.
My own criticism of the way we think of tiers is based on how players decide decks. It seems to me that prevalence based metrics, such as those used by ktkenshinx, are insufficient given the cost barrier to changing decks. That being said, I have zero solutions for tiering in a way that cuts out the 'deck preference' or 'deck barrier to entry' from the tierings.
But again, to suggest Ktkenshinx ignored data is baffling to me. -
Mar 5, 20172
Shmanka posted a message on State of Modern Thread: bans, format health, reprints, new cards, and more!Posted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from ashtonkutcher »One obvious possibility is that they don't want Modern to be a bluefest like Legacy. Stoddard saying they didn't have other options suggests to me that they did want to kill Twin dead, since Exarch is such an obvious option itself.
Do you believe we are a Preordain or Jace unbanning away from that? Blue can't even answer 3/4's of the formats threats. -
Jan 10, 2017
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Shmanka posted a message on Banlist change for 1/9/2017Posted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from idSurge »What I cannot understand, is if they have this poor testing process, why is it we read about 'FFL' which is where testing happens? Like, we know Design is different from Dev, how is it that testing is possibly so poor?
Multiple people have left Wizards of the Coast, including multiple Pro's over the years. (You would think this was a sign of something wrong internally). I remember specifically on one of MJ's old streams, where he and Gainsay talk for hours about how horrible they are as a company. Not only in idea implementation, but salary, careers, etc. I also believe when GT left years ago, he claimed that he disagreed with development and testing entirely, and the movement they were implementing going forward.
Regarding this announcement though, I feel a complete shake of consumer confidence has happened. I don't believe any of this was overblown, you cannot defend Magic at all with a straight face. They consistently print threats with no answers, the games are so wildly inconsistent in every format, with haymakers for offence and never defensive purposes. Before this announcement I saw the potential for a minimal banned list, not anymore, and I know I'm not alone when I say that I've lost a lot of love for this game in a mere 24 hours.
I want 3 Set Blocks, minimal banned lists, the old MTGO back (with decent rewards), rewards for FNM, ELO Rating, actual PTQ's, and less products thrown in my face every year. These past 7 years have been seriously rough being a Magic player. -
Feb 24, 20163
ktkenshinx posted a message on The Modern Dilemma, a message to the MTGS Community and Wizards of the CoastPosted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from the mouth of gix »some small but vocal % of the community: "ugh I hate that they design sets with limited in mind. more constructed staples for modern please!"
wotc: "okay here are some new eldrazi, perhaps a new deck can come of this."
some small but vocal % of the community: "omg too good gotta ban it, why would you print cards this powerful? #fixmodern"
They didn't test the cards in Modern. People want cards tested for Modern and targeted at Modern, not cards that are tested purely in Standard and end up breaking our format. They screwed this up with TC and DTT as well. This laziness or unwillingness is unsustainable for Modern if the format is to enjoy widespread competitive support for a long time. -
Feb 22, 2016
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Shmanka posted a message on The Modern Dilemma, a message to the MTGS Community and Wizards of the CoastHello everyone,Posted in: Modern Archives
If you don't know who I am, I don't blame you. I've been frequenting the forums less and less since Pro Tour M15, where I personally spoke to Aaron Forsythe. I thought we won that day, I thought the community was heard in a clear and concise manner. Since the latest banning announcement I feel on many cases most of us were steered wrong. So this is going to be exactly what it sounds like; a public cry. I hope this gets received as well as my previous message. I won't be talking numbers, yet I may give examples. I do hope WotC sees this message and understands that the Modern community is now lost, scared, and most importantly; becoming suppressed. The handling of the Modern format through social media and unclear articles provided by the mothership has led this sub-community astray without any proper vision for the future.
1. Communication
The communication is the most lackluster attribute that has gotten tremendously worse over the course of two years. This doesn't just end with Modern either. In general, I am tremendously disappointed that I see articles on the Mothership that contradict Twitter and other social media tools. I understand some social media needs to be used personally, but when questioned by an individual on Twitter, getting unclear messages in return only leaves the community grasping at straws to determine conclusions. You do have some benefits WotC, but the level of clarity you post in your messages and articles completely shadows your highlights.
Your quality you deliver in your product reflects this as well, Modern Masters 2015 features Splinter Twin, a card that has no utility within the limited environment you created. It is(was) a beloved card of the Modern format, and it's departure is still being felt. If this banning was planned based on time, in order to shake up a Pro Tour, why would you sell this product to us?
Why would you deceive hundreds of players investing into a deck? Why would you not give us any notification? Do you not understand the reason so many communities are so bitter? Whether that was unintentional or not, we got a bait-n-switch played on us.
Your lack of communication hurts us. It still hurts us. It shows in the quality and the consistency of your communication. It doesn't begin and end with an article or a tweet, communication is everflowing.
2. The "Modern" Management
As time has continued, you have taken a new approach to the Modern banned list compared to any other format. The consistent removal of cards from legal play has frustrated sub-communities time and time again. Yes, we understand that the format is growing, yet your level of investment has not changed. WotC, you treat this format like a red-headed stepchild, along with MTGO. These portions of your game have this constant yearning for growth and proper management, and we see next to no improvements on the weekly articles we read.
Do you not understand how frustrating it is for us, to read articles from our favorite players, about how X, Y, and Z needs improvement? When we are all fully aware ourselves each time we reflect our opinions on the professional community? The professional community, can summarize our thoughts, and feelings more effectively than your entire company. Although this borders on communication, what bothers me and hundreds of other players is how you choose to handle such issues; we have the image you simply ignore them.
Don't like MTGO? We won't do anything.
Don't like the Modern banned list? We won't do anything.
Don't like the availability of our products? We might do it for Commander.
Writers are desperate, players are desperate. This is why people are taking action against you in ways that have accelerated over the past. People are finding spoilers (somehow) and ruining your company. Why crack down on levels of privacy when you should know it's a problem about respect? The community can see it, how do you not?
3. The Modern Banned List, and the Pro Tour
This is the most controversial time of this entire community every year. You have banned cards form archetypes without any justice, you are "trimming" decks. You have started to treat our game like League of Legends. Stop nerfing decks with your bans, they are confusing to new players and professionals alike. Right now as I write this, approximately 500 people are viewing this forum, watching the debate amongst ourselves about the current "Eldrazi Disaster". This section will be the longest, so please read carefully.
There are quite a few "ideologies" we (the community) notice from WotC about the Modern format;
3a. You don't like the Modern Pro Tour
This confuses the community in many ways. Isn't this your second largest format? The one that is rapidly growing? Which supports many local stores, and can hold venue for people rotating out of Standard? From a business standpoint, I have no idea what goes on behind your scenes, but publicly declaring that this is your second largest format. I feel it to be sustainable to give it your second largest amount of support. One Pro Tour a year is not just a Pro Tour to us, it's a PPTQ Season, a PTQ Season, it's an FNM. Having Modern on the Pro Tour Stage, makes us want to be the next Modern Pro. You have huge high profile players that are experts in the Modern format, we want to become those people. You are taking the limelight away from them if you remove this Pro Tour. Why remove something potentially amazing from us and them? Why not help breed a new generation of professional players?
This new generation of professional players is how we relate, there is a Jon Finkel generation we all admire, but why can't we promote a Patrick Dickmann generation? There are so many aficionado, that you have already banned out of the format. Why are you continuing down this path? These are upcoming professional players with a key talent within the game, they are professional players that us newcomers can relate to.
Without a Modern Pro Tour, you wash all the support, and that untapped potential away. Not just from them, but from us.
3b. You feel banning and the Pro Tour are synergistic with each other for success
While this may or may not be true, the fact that you are in the camp of aggressively banning for a format in which you do no investment feels like a poor decision. It is also beginning to reflect among the dissent in the community. What business model, attempts to progressively degrade something that consistently grows? It seems like you have the intention to remove the thorns from a rose, but the way you are executing the situation feels like cutting down the rainforest. There have been 5 large announcements where you have banned cards and given nothing off the list back to us. It's very problematic for us as a sub-community to have top archetypes consistently banned, with no level of compensation. The printing of new powerful cards help, but they do not acknowledge or redeem the level of damage caused.
Also, you have an ideal where the Pro Tour "solves" a format. a radio podcast on Goldfish had a very strong and intelligent opinion on the matter,
I paraphrase "The community knew about the Eldrazi deck way back in December, and was a Mono Black Variant, if anything this Pro Tour held the progression of that deck into the top winning lists. Testing in secret compared to publicly held the process back."
The community has accelerated the Eldrazi deck in two weeks, into so many different varieties with no counter within the metagame, the disease is spreading. It seems insane that a company can make what is being commonly called an "artificial banning", yet there is a real problem happening right now, and you sit by without any action. The professional players did not solve the format, the community did. Stop blaming the Pro Tour for your woes.
Conclusion
We need you to step in Wizards of the Coast, we don't want to play this format anymore. We want to play a better format, a format where we can invest, perfect, and become identified with. Please make an announcement, of any kind, upgrade your levels and quality of communication. Once you have done that regulate the modern banned list to have minimal cards necessary, and take less aggressive approaches to our Pro Tours.
Until then....
#FixModern -
Feb 8, 201631
Teysa_Karlov posted a message on More SOI leaksReturn to Ravnica: Jace investigates something, stuff goes down, fans get pissedPosted in: The Rumor Mill
BfZ: Jace investigates something, stuff goes down, fans get pissed
SoI: Jace investigates something...
I'm noticing a pattern... -
Feb 6, 2016
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ktkenshinx posted a message on Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch Modern DiscussionPosted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from RDSRedemption »I honestly think an Inkmoth or Glistener Elf ban and an Eye of Ugin ban would be perfect for the format. We wouldnt see Affinity, Infect, or Eldrazi in the top 8 next year.
Seriously. No more bans. We've had bans for the past three years and every ban has led to a format with yet another problem and yet another ban. Either Wizards just bans something every year for the rest of Modern, or we start a new strategy: unbanning meaningful cards, pushing relevant new cards, and inserting helpful reprints. -
Jan 22, 2016
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ktkenshinx posted a message on Current Modern Banlist Discussion (1/18/2016 update - Summer Bloom/Splinter Twin Banned)Posted in: Modern ArchivesQuote from idSurge »Cant stop the laughing, I need to log out...
If anything good has come from this, lines have been drawn, we know where everyone stands, and I'm loving Naya Burn (no Nacatl).
EDIT: Oh and for laughs kt, care to post up Affinity over those periods?
Affinity wasn't quite as bad as Twin.
AFFINITY DAY 2 GP/PT/SCG OPEN 2015-16
PT FRF 6.6%
GP Van 10.9%
GP Char 9.7%
GP Cop 7.3%
GP Sing 9.9%
GP OKC 15.1%
GP PA 9.5%
GP Pitt 10.5%
SCG Balt 3.1%
SCG Char 5.0%
SCG Cinc 14.5%
SCG Dall 7.5%
SCG Cinc2 9.9%
SCG Char2 7.4%
Average in GPs/PT: 9.9%
Average in SCGs: 7.9%
Average in Day 2s: 9.1%
AFFINITY MTGO 2015-16
October 6.5%
November 8.2%
December 6.8%
January 7.3%
Average MTGO in range: 7.2%
Affinity is enough under the Twin stats that it appears to legitimately dodge even the opaque Wizards ban criteria. - To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
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And while I'm glad Aaron Forscythe gave his opinion, I'm also glad he doesn't alone decide what is best for the format because 3 of the cards he named could help out the format. I'll also say, let's not forget that the last time Aaron Forscythe named a card that would never be unbanned (Bitterblossom) and the discussion that caused. And then less then 3 months later it was unbanned and...nothing happened in the format. No big shake up. No crazy Tier 0 deck. It was not slotted into B/G/x as many thought it might be. So not discussing cards simply because A.F. has deemed them unsafe would be a mistake, at least in my view.
Finally, on the topic of B/G/x, ktkenshinx is right. More bans would be a mistake for the format, even if B/G/x is once again over represented in the format. That would make 3 bans, trying to depower what amounts to a goodstuff.deck. If other colors had stronger cards, the format would even itself out color wise and B/G/x wouldn't be so played (theoretically). Also, can we please stop arguing over whether card X is not a good idea to unban because it can be slotted into B/G/x? Please? Because here's a news flash: every card in U, W, and R can be slotted in. It's not helping to create a productive discussion.
Edit: Also, Sheepz, they are actively watching B/G cards. The card based around Persephone that was supposed to be in BNG or JIN (I forget offhand) was B/G and was removed due to possible Modern implications. Also, Pharika was changed last second as she was seen as too strong, though if it was in Modern or Standard I don't know.
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On the topic of Jace, I don't believe he'd be too strong. 4 mana Walkers aren't exactly making a splash in Modern, and as I said I'd enjoy more unbans. He seems the safest choice right now with the amount of Twin in the format also.
Finally, we are a week away from the next banlist update correct? Does anyone want to start speculating on it or should we start a new thread for that?
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