I’m interested in building this deck I think. Any opinions on what’s better: Counter Cat or RUG delver?
CC has a lot of awesome tools at its disposal, and sidesteps grave hate quite well with the SB. The issues with the deck right now IMO are:
- Outclassed threats. Goyf is slow compared to Phoenix and Nacatl is smaller than so much stuff on the ground.
- Consistency. Sometimes you keep a cantrip-heavy one-lander, fetch Steam Vents, eventually draw Scalding Tarn and lose. This deck would benefit immensely from an upgrade to Sleight of Hand (i.e. Preordain).
That being said, Mutagenic is looking to be insane right now with Nacatl. I would recommend this list:
Not me. I have actually gone to 4 Pierce in my UR build. They are amazing. I do think though that in green it's hard to justify Pierce over Denial unless you play lots of one-drops.
Could you post somewhere your updated list (or just write down the changes)?
Your list looks a lot like what those on the shoal plan might run. Just some food for thought, Imo I think we all prefer mana leak over spell pierce. Snapcaster is considered a three+ drop in this deck. You might find that running 4 is a bit overkill especially when pretty much bolt is the only proactive spell we have.(though simic charm is nice.)
Those of us on the looting build enjoy it as this deck doesn't have great answers to resolved spells so digging through our deck for an optimum line is our best line. We desperately need a better removal spell than dismember. We came so close with that new split card but it only hits flyers
Anyway. Enjoy brewing and I hope you have fun!
Not me. I have actually gone to 4 Pierce in my UR build. They are amazing. I do think though that in green it's hard to justify Pierce over Denial unless you play lots of one-drops.
Has anyone thought about putting Sphinx of Foresight into the deck as a Delver flip enabler on turn 2? Granted, you’d want to run probably 2 colors since you wouldn’t want to fetch on turn 1, but I think it’d be interesting. You would want to play 4 obviously to maximize their utility.
Played along side looting and disrupting shoal, it would give you the ability to pitch them after they served their use(since a 4 cmc card isn’t great for a delver deck), but they could also be hard cast as a 4 drop that doesn’t utilize the graveyard in slower games.
We don't actually care so much about Shoaling for 4. Sphinxes on top of the deck don't flip Delvers, so I'd say that effect is a wash. Plus, you have to open Delver and opponents have to not have removal for that plan to work out. And then we're stuck with a 4cmc creature in hand! I don't see it working out. Drake is much more solid as a post-board plan in that curve slot.
I'm not super interested in Drake because unlike Hoots, it dies to Decay and Push. I think the ability to dodge those is pretty big. Also, growing the thing feels pretty tough, although in the article you're saying turn 4, which seems okay. I just don't see enough upside to drop the green guys, personally.
I do like that you're reincluding Shoal in your builds, which has been quite good for me lately. I think Echoing Truth is interesting, too, but would invite you, should you choose to revisit RUG anytime soon, to try out Simic Charm again. It's solid against the delve creatures in two ways and is a clean answer to Thing in the Ice. And it's tons of fun as a combat trick, although you already know that.
I would definitely play SC over Truth if I was in green, but as I said in the article I don't think it's close to worth it to dip into green for graveyard creatures right now. They are just better in other colors, and those colors also offer superior utility. Going Temur = losing to RIP unless you dedicate substantial sideboard space to sidestepping it (i.e. with Huntmaster/Hazoret), but adding insult to injury, Temur also all but locks you out of the best threat for sidestepping it (Crackling).
Push/Decay evasion not really an issue when 4 Snapcaster plus the Crackling package puts those decks away regardless. Biggest draw to Goyf IMO is actually the equity it offers against Burn.
Agreed, also I think mission briefing works in the same way as Jace when it comes to as fortolds and balances which should open up some new possible plays. (Also in theroy works with a gy electrodominace and a in hand balance for instance speed 4 mana balance without as fortolds)
briefing works in the same way as jace which is not the way u think it works
Tried Incubation. We need 4 Snaps to make it work. But still, it's much worse than Stirrings because it can't find lands. It's good against midrange because we want threats nonstop there, and improves our post-board matchups; increases threat density without folding to grave hate, unlike Traverse, and can find sideboard threats that also ignore grave hate, like Hunt and Hazo. Exile side is also only relevant against some matchups, but it does improve those (Tron, Jund, etc.).
Probably need to go up to 18 lands at least to support Snap though, and increase the creature count in general. Incubation still whiffs sometimes either way if we're on Delver. Significantly worse than something like Sleight of Hand in most game 1s. Our deck is still bad. Here is my very rough first draft.
It being 'dead' is the point of this thread. Bringing back 'midrange' as we intrinsically as Modern players understand it to be, is the point. Calling Humans Midrange, is not it.
You're the only person in the thread arguing that midrange specifically means BGx. I don't think many others would agree that the two terms are as equal as you feel. BGx, as its referred to in modern (Jund, Junk, Rock) is certainly midrange, but not at all midrange is going to be BGx.
But debating this seems pointless since you've defined midrange as only lists with spell-based interaction. I personally disagree and don't care to take the discussion further.
We can have creature-based midrange. I was specifically referring to BGx spell-based midrange earlier when discussing cantrips, but sure, creature-based midrange is a real thing. Humans just isn't that deck. I define "midrange" more how Jordan Boisvert would refer to "Rock" decks (http://modernnexus.com/pigeonholing-for-profit-modern-era-archetypes/). Specifically, when I refer to midrange, I don't mean ramp or creature-based disruptive strategies. I specifically mean Rock decks that disrupt the hand/board prior to deploying threats. Humans is not midrange/Rock. Humans is a Fish deck, like Merfolk before it, i.e. a type of disruptive tempo deck. As Jordan described them, "Fish decks play a large number of synergistic or disruptive creatures and some light permission."
The article lists the problems with midrange as I see them, and the directions the archetype would have to head in to address them. It also proposes a decklist utilizing those principles.
I think turn one Chalice will always be relevant in Modern, and I doubt another shell for it emerges any time soon so gracefully incorporates early aggression (Temple/Mimic), heavy-duty hand disruption (Seer), an anti-attrition plan (Relic/Scourge), and built-in consistency on this level (Powder/Void).
Hey everyone! I've been playing Colorless Eldrazi for more than one year now. The deck is great but I'm seriously worried about its future longevity.
The main reason is that most of its power comes from the card eldrazi temple, which allows us to only play colorless eldrazi spells, and while every other deck in the format is more likely to get upgrades as new cards are released, we are basically staring at a static pool which will not evolve over time.
What do you think about this?
Nah. They will always release great utility upgrades to colorless. Smuggler's Copter and Zhalfirin Void were awesome for us, for instance. I think we are likely to get upgrades at a faster rate than many highly streamlined Modern decks, such as Hollow One (discard methods/payoffs).
I always love Chandra when she resolved. She's great (the best option available imho) against UW too. Against BGx Hazoret is great but it is legendary so I think one copy is ok. Huntmaster does die to everything. But it is great at clogging the board, making chumpblocker and gaining life so I'd keep one or two copies in side.
And if it lives... you win! And if you play four... one eventually lives!
Just picking up the deck. Why aren't 4x Bedlam Reveler an integral part of the core instead of the Mandrills? Still turns on Stubborn Denial thanks to it's prowess and lets you refuel gas when you're out of cards. Also plays well with Delver of Secrets wanting Instants and Sorceries, and has synergy with Faithless Looting which is one of the best cards atm. It's also impervious to the same removal Mandrills are (Push, Bolt) while still sharing it's "weakness" to graveyard hate in that opponents have to nuke your yard before you get to cast it. One less power is trivial when it has prowess and you can beat a Tarmogoyf on combat with an instant or two. Is it because of the double Red requirement? Anyways, here's my inital list:
Sideboard is hastily thrown. Haven't taken the deck to a tournament yet, but performed well in testing. Reveler does us something powerful to do and mitigates the card disadvantage from both Shoal and Looting. I'm down to 3 Shoal since the average CMC in modern has increased a lot thanks to Delve threats, powerful planeswalkers, miracles, Tron, or high CMC cards entering directly from the Graveyard.
Kind of also want to try Traverse the Ulvenwald but can't fit it right now, and it would also require Baubles
You can check out my articles on Modern Nexus for plenty of content on Reveler in Temur shells, Delver and otherwise. Right now, my feeling about a Looting + Reveler shell is that BR/UR are both well-equipped for the package. As splashes, white offers Souls, and black offers interaction. Green just doesn't do anything. It offers Traverse or Goyf, both of which prove redundant with Reveler in the mix and, most damningly, also rely on the graveyard. So does Arclight Phoenix, which is also on-color with Reveler and more resilient to grave hate than either of those cards.
The most success I had with RUG Reveler was with Monkey Grow while Probe was legal. That deck was insane, as Dredge was not a quantity yet and so nobody had a compelling reason to run graveyard hate. I think it's up there with Colorless Eldrazi Stompy pre-Hollow One as the best-positioned deck I've ever brewed. http://modernnexus.com/visions-pptq-monkey-grow/
- Outclassed threats. Goyf is slow compared to Phoenix and Nacatl is smaller than so much stuff on the ground.
- Consistency. Sometimes you keep a cantrip-heavy one-lander, fetch Steam Vents, eventually draw Scalding Tarn and lose. This deck would benefit immensely from an upgrade to Sleight of Hand (i.e. Preordain).
That being said, Mutagenic is looking to be insane right now with Nacatl. I would recommend this list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants 19
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
2 Thought Scour
4 Mutagenic Growth
1 Spell Snare
Sorceries 7
4 Serum Visions
2 Sleight of Hand
1 Chart a Course
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Island
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Pyroclasm
2 Damping Sphere
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Destructive Revelry
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
Here is my latest build, updated slightly since the article. Give that a read if you have any questions before asking, as it covers a lot.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Salamander Drake
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Crackling Drake
Instants (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
4 Opt
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
4 Serum Visions
Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Steam Vents
4 Island
1 Mountain
3 Damping Sphere
2 Blood Moon
3 Crackling Drake
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrade
1 Izzet Staticaster
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Salamander Drake
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Crackling Drake
Instants (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
4 Opt
4 Disrupting Shoal
4 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
4 Serum Visions
Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Steam Vents
4 Island
1 Mountain
3 Damping Sphere
2 Blood Moon
3 Crackling Drake
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Abrade
1 Izzet Staticaster
Push/Decay evasion not really an issue when 4 Snapcaster plus the Crackling package puts those decks away regardless. Biggest draw to Goyf IMO is actually the equity it offers against Burn.
http://modernnexus.com/ur-it-rebuilding-delver-salamander-drake/
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Salamander Drake
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Crackling Drake
Instants (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thought Scour
4 Opt
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Spell Pierce
2 Mana Leak
1 Abrade
1 Dismember
1 Echoing Truth
4 Serum Visions
Lands (18)
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Spirebluff Canal
3 Steam Vents
4 Island
1 Mountain
3 Damping Sphere
2 Blood Moon
3 Crackling Drake
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrade
2 Anger of the Gods
Probably need to go up to 18 lands at least to support Snap though, and increase the creature count in general. Incubation still whiffs sometimes either way if we're on Delver. Significantly worse than something like Sleight of Hand in most game 1s. Our deck is still bad. Here is my very rough first draft.
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Hooting Mandrills
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts (4)
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instants
2 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Tarfire
3 Mana Leak
2 Stubborn Denial
Sorceries (10)
4 Serum Visions
2 Faithless Looting
4 incubation // incongruity
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
2 Island
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Spirebluff Canal
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Nullhide Ferox
2 Blood Moon
1 Alpine Moon
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroclasm
And here's his freshly-published response to DeFish's thorough and insightful post on page 1 of this very thread!
http://modernnexus.com/guild-faith-building-better-midrange/
The article lists the problems with midrange as I see them, and the directions the archetype would have to head in to address them. It also proposes a decklist utilizing those principles.
The most success I had with RUG Reveler was with Monkey Grow while Probe was legal. That deck was insane, as Dredge was not a quantity yet and so nobody had a compelling reason to run graveyard hate. I think it's up there with Colorless Eldrazi Stompy pre-Hollow One as the best-positioned deck I've ever brewed. http://modernnexus.com/visions-pptq-monkey-grow/
4 Hooting Mandrills
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
Instants (22)
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Tarfire
2 Vapor Snag
3 Thought Scour
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Mana Leak
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
Lands (17)
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Bedlam Reveler
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
2 Destructive Revelry
2 Spite of Mogis