SOFTW4RE may be on to something with the Vapor Snags. I'm considering a split with Path to Exile as BGx and Pod continue their steep decline, but Path still has it in grindier matchups. Anyone still on Feed the Clan, drop it; Hallow is way better right now. Kudos to David on that Eidolon interaction, very sweet.
Got to grind (paper!) against a UR Delver player today on a typical aggressive list (no Snaps, Cruise over Dig). Highly favorable for us. We swing late-games way better than they do, and White gives us all kinds of tools to win with (Helix, Hallow, etc.). That they can't easily deal with Goyf or even Wild Nacatl is just icing on the cake. One game he Cruised 3 times to my one and resolved two Blood Moons, and I still grinded him to 0 cards (to my seven) and crashed in with a 6/7 Goyf three times for the win. I board out Delvers and Spell Pierce on the draw here and play a control game. Pyroclasm's our best card. I'll write up a section on UR Delver soon enough for the Primer since the deck still seems really popular everywhere.
I'll also implore everyone to run a MD Faithless Looting. In any remotely controlling matchup, you just cast it when you have two dead cards to cycle (fetches, expired Spell Pierce, etc.). I can't stress enough how important it is to WAIT with this card until you HAVE TWO DEAD CARDS TO CYCLE. Don't expect to draw into one. For those familiar with Canadian Thresh, treat Looting like Brainstorm. Exactly like Brainstorm. The only time I wouldn't wait to cast it is turn 2 after keeping a one-lander after having cast turn 1 Serum Visionsif I still can't find a second mana source. It's also better to pay an extra mana for Cruise and to leave Looting in your graveyard when that comes up (which it does), even if it means waiting an extra turn (unless you're tremendously behind). The card generates so much value late-game it's not even funny.
( On a related note, your own swiftspear can survive your own pyroclasms thanks to prowess, maybe thats something that we can take advantage of ? )
Fun fact : Hallow does wonders against Pyroclasm effects, netting you 2-3 life per creature on the board. Drawback : no creature dies.
Well, you obviously don't cast Hallow on your own Pyroclasm since you're two-for-one-ing yourself. But casting it on an opponent's Anger of the Gods seems good. And yeah, Pyroclasm is bonkers in our sideboard from my testing. Card's so good right now.
Too far for me. Medium-sized Modern event at Face2Face today. Lost in Top8 to Burn.
Round 1 vs. UWR Control (1-2) G1 manascrew, he wins with a fast Geist. G2 I stomp him, he can't keep up with my cards. G3 same thing, I end up with a Goyf and a Cat on the field, about 5 cards in hand, all my lands. He's got a bunch of lands (no Colonnade) and goes to topdeck mode. I Serum, Treasure Cruise, attack him down to 2, and pass the turn. He Bolts me at EOT and I go to 3, and then he topdecks Bolt for the win. I reveal my own top card: Lightning Bolt. Better luck next time!
Round 2 vs. Kiki-Pod (2-0) G1 I bolt his dork and he gets the T3 Pod. I keep pressuring him with Nacatl and Remanding/Pathing his guys for the win. G2 I have Ancient Grudge for his Birthing Pod and resolve 4 Path to Exile via Snapcaster Mage/Treasure Cruise; he can't keep up.
Round 3 vs. Blue Zoo (2-0) I just out-value him both games. He's on the Goyf-less Geist plan so my creatures are cheaper and better, plus I resolve more Helixes and draw into gas with Cruise. I stomp him both games and Hallow a Lightning Bolt for euphoria. The highlight: turn 3 Pyroclasm with Wild Nacatl in play; Cat survives and Pyro eats my opponent's board of double Hierarch and Pridemage.
Round 4 vs. All-In Red (2-0) G1 I'm not sure what he's on; beautiful, foil, German, Onslaught Wooded Foothills and Alpha Mountains grow my respect for the guy, though. He casts a T2 double Burning-Tree Emissary and Priest of Urabrask, but my Lightning Helix keeps his army in check. I end up crashing in with Goyfs for lethal while he looks for a third land. G2 he gets an early Relic of Progenitus, but I dump so many cards in the grave anyway that my Goyfs are 2/3 most of the time. He pops Relic to make my attacking Goyf 0/2 and double blocks it with two Burning-Trees; I Helix one for the blowout and take the game away from there. Pyroclasm wipes his board after he semi-recovers. Turns out he wasn't on MD Blood Moon, which is a mistake IMO; he did bring them in G2, just didn't see any (I had Revelry anyway).
Round 5 vs. ??? (0-0) We draw into Top 8.
Top 8 Round 1 vs. UWR Burn (1-2) G1 he's way too fast for me and Searing Blazes two guys. G2 I Negate his Cruise and keep him off resolving burn spells long enough to make it. I end up Bolting an Eidolon at his end step, going to 2, and hitting for lethal with a huge Tarmogoyf. G3 I mulligan to 4 off manaless hands and hold off his guys with Path to Exile, but he ends up burning me down from 20 before a Delver can finish him off. Didn't resolve a single Helix, Skite, or Hallow games 1 or 3, which cinched it for him I think. Very important to draw some hate in this matchup.
Travel included, I broke even $-wise. Attributing my game losses to bad draws here, I wouldn't change the 75 other than maybe another Hallow in such a Bolt-heavy meta. Very happy with my list. Here's what I played:
Where do you guys play? Will you be at the f2f super series in calgary this november? If so, would love to meet up with you guys (and maybe buy you a beer)
No Standard for me, but I'm headed to GP New Jersey in November. We play in Montreal.
Good Evening everyone,
Just 3-0'ed tonight's FNM with this list. (Ashton was here too, got 1-2 ed, lost to two ppl who were playing the decks I lent them ;-D Better luck next time !)
Actually I smashed your second deck (the "Anti-Delver" one), only lost to Dredgevine I never anticipate that deck since it just gets dominated by T1 Modern strategies, so I don't pack any SB hate. If it starts Dredging, whatever, I lose. You should come to Face to Face Monday, the players/decks are much more serious.
BUT because of their price they lock players out of decks in Modern and keep new players out of the game for as long as BGx is the 'best' deck in the format.
Further - Goyf's splashability and presence in significant numbers of decks pushes certain tier decks away from being playable by many.
My reason for not owning the cards is that I don't see the value in them - I don't think $200 is worth it for a vanilla beater so I'm happy to not have the card for now (and I own Rishadan Ports, Karakas, Wastelands, Liliana of the Veil, most fetchs and shocks etc etc - just so you realise my issue isn't purely cost).
I'm not saying they should be banned, they're not ban-worthy at all - but they should not be the entry ticket to Modern.
So your argument is:
Bob and Goyf are in a large variety of decks
Bob and Goyf are very expensive
BGx is the best deck in the format so a large amount of new people will want to play it
Therefore Bob and Goyf are a large barrier to modern
Will all due respect, the premises of your argument are completely wrong.
Bob is in almost no other deck except BGx.
Goyf isn't in many decks either. He's not in: UR Delver, Burn, Melira Pod, Kiki Pod, UR Twin, UWR control/midrange, Scapeshift, Affinity, Death & Taxes, GW Hatebeards, Merfolk, Amulet of Vigor, Bogles, Soul Sisters, Storm, Ascendancy Combo, 8 Rack. In fact it's much easier to say what few decks goyf is in: BGx, Zoo, and uh... RUG Twin. That's literally it. Goyf is in 9.1% of decks right now according to mtggoldfish, a small minority.
BGx decks haven't been "the best" deck since Deathrite Shaman and Bloodbraid Elf were legal, almost two years ago, and their absolute peak only lasted for a few months. Why do people still hate them so much?
Actually, Goyf has been in UR Delver, UR Twin, Scapeshift, and Affinity. Those decks just change their names when they splash for the beater (i.e. RUG Delver, RUG Twin).
Primer update. Added UWR Control to the Matchups section, bumped BGx to Favorable, and acknowledged Burn and Tempo in Sideboarding. An insane card I've recently discovered for the Burn matchup, discussed in detail in the Primer:
This same conversation got so out of hand a few pages back that DrWorm made an entire thread to help some of the posters here (i.e. those claiming Delver is "Control" and Affinity is "Combo") understand these archetypes. I suggest anyone who's even on the fence about these categories click here and read the whole thread, it's not very long.
On the topic at hand: the Modern metagame has, indeed, changed significantly. I'd say warped. My personal definition of "format-warping:" changing the format in a way drastic enough to force close to every other deck to acknowledge in some way the presence of newer strategies. I don't see anything wrong with this sort of warping, and I actually think it's healthy for the format. Legacy Dredge is format-warping, since it forces decks to run some graveyard hate in their 75 or to lose to Dredge decks. Modern Twin is format-warping, since it forces most decks to run unconditional, instant-speed removal if they don't want to lose to it. And now it seems like Burn is format-warping, forcing players to run some lifegain in their decks to offset its efficiency. Should we also ban Splinter Twin and Birthing Pod? No? Then there's no reason to hurt Burn. Yes, it's linear. This linearity also makes it that much easier to disrupt - just run Feed the Clan (or something equally janky/backbreaking).
Some people here have a different definition of "format-warping:" changing the format in an oppressive way that significantly limits the performance of many other strategies and reduces overall deck variety. If that's the definition we're going by, no, Burn is by no means format-warping. Neither is Delver. I'll concede that they're both Tier 1 right now, but IMO that's something to be thrilled about. Wizards did what we asked them to: they shook it up!
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Combust
SB: 3 Shatterstorm
SB: 2 Anger of the Gods
SB: 3 Pyroclasm
SB: 2 Blood Moon
Blood moon is less good right now with Burn and U/R Delver at the top of the heap. So I'm bringing in a card that isn't normally played in modern but will slow those tow decks down. Trinisphere. Instead of looking to T2 Bloodmoon, I'm looking to T2 TSphere. Also helps against one of the meta choices that is good against delver and burn, boogles. It isn't so bad against affinity either.
I cut the Boros Reckoners down to three. This was a hard decision for me as it is one of our beaters and a got ya win condition. There have been too many instances where I've had a hard time casting him on turn three because of a scrying sheets. So I made the call and cut him by one.
I also moved Pyroclasm to the board as if Trinisphere is on board, then fallout is just better. Relic is money right now as well.
What do you think?
I like this. We definitely need a good plan against Burn, that seems like a nigh-impossible matchup to me. But just for the record, Skred Red absolutely stomps UR Delver.
TC is a better card than DRS as legacy is showing. Its a farce if TC stays unbanned with cards like DRS/BBE/GGT/Visions and such banned. TC alone made all of the 1 cmc cantrips the best cards in the format, with swiftspear.
Haha? They do totally different things. That's like saying, "Pod is better than Preordain, so Pod should be banned." They do totally different things.
(They do totally different things.)
"Delver," the archetype, has never been easy to pilot, but I'll concede that this UR Aggro variant (yeah, the one we're all talking about) isn't so tough. That's not because of Treasure Cruise, it's because it's not Delver: it's aggro. Since when is Aggro the most skill-intensive archetype? Since never. Tempo (or "Delver"), on the other hand, highly skill-intensive. But UR Delver as the format currently knows it shares a much closer affinity with Burn (as Kt helpfully pointed out) than it does with Modern's Delver decks (RUG Delver, and less recently UWR Delver).
Thoughtseize has been trending up at Cardkingdom ($35) and Channel Fireball ($30).
That's odd. It is getting less Modern play and the amount of Standard play hasn't changed.
It's a staple in every format, the best card of its kind (one-mana discard), and I don't smell another reprint (so soon) after Theros. Thoughtseize was a steal at 20$ and it's a safe long-term buy even now.
I'm considering taking this deck to a tournament and I'm almost guaranteed to play 1-2 matches against UWR control or midrange. I playtested this deck in this matchup and it seemed to be a bit struggling against UWR. Any suggestions how could I tweak MD or SB to fight such decks?
Any snapcaster path to exile deck is going to be tough. One of the better ways to beat them is with non creature permanents (planeswalkers). Geist would probably be a good answer too, but you have to leave in some burn to remove snapcaster blocking.
You guys must be playing this wrong. UWR Control is practically a bye. I'll write up a section on it for the primer in the next couple days, but here's what you want to be doing:
- Play your threats one at a time. Force the UWR pilot to out-tempo himself dealing with your clocks. Getting all your guys killed at once sucks, but an opponent sinking 4 mana into an uncounterable Wrath of God to kill a single Delver of Secrets shouldn't upset you in the slightest. So play them one at a time! More threats will come. So will Treasure Cruise, and most UWR lists haven't exactly adapted to the Delve meta and find themselves tremendously vulnerable to that kind of card advantage from Tempo. Steady, one-creature pressure wins the game against this deck.
- Play around their disruption. Gitaxian Probe obviously helps worlds here, but if you don't have it, UWR isn't that hard to read. If you know you can slide a threat in next turn, but not this one, save it. If you don't see an opportunity in the near future when you can slide your Goyf in under countermagic, and have no pressure on the table, just play it. UWR will draw lands forever as you draw one-mana Russet Wolves and Concentrate. Generally you'll have a hand full of gas and they'll have a grip of lands, and after you make them sub-optimally play all their cards, you'll be way up on advantage and can just roll over them.
- Maximize your own disruption. In other words, have a plan. Know (this knowledge best achieved by grinding) when you need to hold up mana to protect your threat, and when it's more important to save that Spell Snare for a Snapcaster Mage. If you have another threat in hand, let them deal with your guy. Let them tap out to counter your next threat if you can Treasure Cruise. I've won many games against UWR Control on just two or three lands to their 10. You're gaining 4 mana worth of tempo by Spell Piercing a Batterskull (not to mention a Sphinx's Revelation), and that particular interaction should stand for the whole matchup. Another good example: Path to Exile on Celestial Colonnade (which, incidentally, leaves you with a window for Tarmogoyf/Treasure Cruise). If they're throwing Electrolyze at you on your End Step, just take two damage. Save your countermagic for the cards that really matter, like those that remove your guys or put UWR up on cards. Be patient, and all those fancy cantrips will draw them a whole lot of Flooded Strand.
UWR Control gets a bit trickier if they have an intimate knowledge of your manabase, in which case you should hover around 3 perfect lands (i.e. complimentary Core Shocks and basic Island) to avoid getting cut off White or Red via Tectonic Edge. Luckily, the UWR pilot has no idea what the hell he's playing against most of the time.
In case that's what you meant by "UWR Midrange," the Restoration Angel-Blade Splicer deck poses much more of a threat. Against them, slam a threat very quickly and try to get in for as much damage as you can before they stabilize the board; after that, pour your resources into burning their face, but it's one of Counter-Cat's tougher matchups.
Got to grind (paper!) against a UR Delver player today on a typical aggressive list (no Snaps, Cruise over Dig). Highly favorable for us. We swing late-games way better than they do, and White gives us all kinds of tools to win with (Helix, Hallow, etc.). That they can't easily deal with Goyf or even Wild Nacatl is just icing on the cake. One game he Cruised 3 times to my one and resolved two Blood Moons, and I still grinded him to 0 cards (to my seven) and crashed in with a 6/7 Goyf three times for the win. I board out Delvers and Spell Pierce on the draw here and play a control game. Pyroclasm's our best card. I'll write up a section on UR Delver soon enough for the Primer since the deck still seems really popular everywhere.
I'll also implore everyone to run a MD Faithless Looting. In any remotely controlling matchup, you just cast it when you have two dead cards to cycle (fetches, expired Spell Pierce, etc.). I can't stress enough how important it is to WAIT with this card until you HAVE TWO DEAD CARDS TO CYCLE. Don't expect to draw into one. For those familiar with Canadian Thresh, treat Looting like Brainstorm. Exactly like Brainstorm. The only time I wouldn't wait to cast it is turn 2 after keeping a one-lander after having cast turn 1 Serum Visions if I still can't find a second mana source. It's also better to pay an extra mana for Cruise and to leave Looting in your graveyard when that comes up (which it does), even if it means waiting an extra turn (unless you're tremendously behind). The card generates so much value late-game it's not even funny.
Round 1 vs. UWR Control (1-2) G1 manascrew, he wins with a fast Geist. G2 I stomp him, he can't keep up with my cards. G3 same thing, I end up with a Goyf and a Cat on the field, about 5 cards in hand, all my lands. He's got a bunch of lands (no Colonnade) and goes to topdeck mode. I Serum, Treasure Cruise, attack him down to 2, and pass the turn. He Bolts me at EOT and I go to 3, and then he topdecks Bolt for the win. I reveal my own top card: Lightning Bolt. Better luck next time!
Round 2 vs. Kiki-Pod (2-0) G1 I bolt his dork and he gets the T3 Pod. I keep pressuring him with Nacatl and Remanding/Pathing his guys for the win. G2 I have Ancient Grudge for his Birthing Pod and resolve 4 Path to Exile via Snapcaster Mage/Treasure Cruise; he can't keep up.
Round 3 vs. Blue Zoo (2-0) I just out-value him both games. He's on the Goyf-less Geist plan so my creatures are cheaper and better, plus I resolve more Helixes and draw into gas with Cruise. I stomp him both games and Hallow a Lightning Bolt for euphoria. The highlight: turn 3 Pyroclasm with Wild Nacatl in play; Cat survives and Pyro eats my opponent's board of double Hierarch and Pridemage.
Round 4 vs. All-In Red (2-0) G1 I'm not sure what he's on; beautiful, foil, German, Onslaught Wooded Foothills and Alpha Mountains grow my respect for the guy, though. He casts a T2 double Burning-Tree Emissary and Priest of Urabrask, but my Lightning Helix keeps his army in check. I end up crashing in with Goyfs for lethal while he looks for a third land. G2 he gets an early Relic of Progenitus, but I dump so many cards in the grave anyway that my Goyfs are 2/3 most of the time. He pops Relic to make my attacking Goyf 0/2 and double blocks it with two Burning-Trees; I Helix one for the blowout and take the game away from there. Pyroclasm wipes his board after he semi-recovers. Turns out he wasn't on MD Blood Moon, which is a mistake IMO; he did bring them in G2, just didn't see any (I had Revelry anyway).
Round 5 vs. ??? (0-0) We draw into Top 8.
Top 8 Round 1 vs. UWR Burn (1-2) G1 he's way too fast for me and Searing Blazes two guys. G2 I Negate his Cruise and keep him off resolving burn spells long enough to make it. I end up Bolting an Eidolon at his end step, going to 2, and hitting for lethal with a huge Tarmogoyf. G3 I mulligan to 4 off manaless hands and hold off his guys with Path to Exile, but he ends up burning me down from 20 before a Delver can finish him off. Didn't resolve a single Helix, Skite, or Hallow games 1 or 3, which cinched it for him I think. Very important to draw some hate in this matchup.
Travel included, I broke even $-wise. Attributing my game losses to bad draws here, I wouldn't change the 75 other than maybe another Hallow in such a Bolt-heavy meta. Very happy with my list. Here's what I played:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Forest
1 Island
Creature (15)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Thought Scour
2 Remand
2 Mana Leak
3 Lightning Helix
Sorcery (8)
3 Serum Visions
1 Faithless Looting
4 Treasure Cruise
2 Spellskite
2 Boros Charm
2 Negate
2 Destructive Revelry
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pyroclasm
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hallow
1 Spell Pierce
1 Isochron Scepter
1 Engineered Explosives
This same conversation got so out of hand a few pages back that DrWorm made an entire thread to help some of the posters here (i.e. those claiming Delver is "Control" and Affinity is "Combo") understand these archetypes. I suggest anyone who's even on the fence about these categories click here and read the whole thread, it's not very long.
On the topic at hand: the Modern metagame has, indeed, changed significantly. I'd say warped. My personal definition of "format-warping:" changing the format in a way drastic enough to force close to every other deck to acknowledge in some way the presence of newer strategies. I don't see anything wrong with this sort of warping, and I actually think it's healthy for the format. Legacy Dredge is format-warping, since it forces decks to run some graveyard hate in their 75 or to lose to Dredge decks. Modern Twin is format-warping, since it forces most decks to run unconditional, instant-speed removal if they don't want to lose to it. And now it seems like Burn is format-warping, forcing players to run some lifegain in their decks to offset its efficiency. Should we also ban Splinter Twin and Birthing Pod? No? Then there's no reason to hurt Burn. Yes, it's linear. This linearity also makes it that much easier to disrupt - just run Feed the Clan (or something equally janky/backbreaking).
Some people here have a different definition of "format-warping:" changing the format in an oppressive way that significantly limits the performance of many other strategies and reduces overall deck variety. If that's the definition we're going by, no, Burn is by no means format-warping. Neither is Delver. I'll concede that they're both Tier 1 right now, but IMO that's something to be thrilled about. Wizards did what we asked them to: they shook it up!
(They do totally different things.)
"Delver," the archetype, has never been easy to pilot, but I'll concede that this UR Aggro variant (yeah, the one we're all talking about) isn't so tough. That's not because of Treasure Cruise, it's because it's not Delver: it's aggro. Since when is Aggro the most skill-intensive archetype? Since never. Tempo (or "Delver"), on the other hand, highly skill-intensive. But UR Delver as the format currently knows it shares a much closer affinity with Burn (as Kt helpfully pointed out) than it does with Modern's Delver decks (RUG Delver, and less recently UWR Delver).
In that case, can't we all agree not to theorize about the consequences of such a ban?
- Play your threats one at a time. Force the UWR pilot to out-tempo himself dealing with your clocks. Getting all your guys killed at once sucks, but an opponent sinking 4 mana into an uncounterable Wrath of God to kill a single Delver of Secrets shouldn't upset you in the slightest. So play them one at a time! More threats will come. So will Treasure Cruise, and most UWR lists haven't exactly adapted to the Delve meta and find themselves tremendously vulnerable to that kind of card advantage from Tempo. Steady, one-creature pressure wins the game against this deck.
- Play around their disruption. Gitaxian Probe obviously helps worlds here, but if you don't have it, UWR isn't that hard to read. If you know you can slide a threat in next turn, but not this one, save it. If you don't see an opportunity in the near future when you can slide your Goyf in under countermagic, and have no pressure on the table, just play it. UWR will draw lands forever as you draw one-mana Russet Wolves and Concentrate. Generally you'll have a hand full of gas and they'll have a grip of lands, and after you make them sub-optimally play all their cards, you'll be way up on advantage and can just roll over them.
- Maximize your own disruption. In other words, have a plan. Know (this knowledge best achieved by grinding) when you need to hold up mana to protect your threat, and when it's more important to save that Spell Snare for a Snapcaster Mage. If you have another threat in hand, let them deal with your guy. Let them tap out to counter your next threat if you can Treasure Cruise. I've won many games against UWR Control on just two or three lands to their 10. You're gaining 4 mana worth of tempo by Spell Piercing a Batterskull (not to mention a Sphinx's Revelation), and that particular interaction should stand for the whole matchup. Another good example: Path to Exile on Celestial Colonnade (which, incidentally, leaves you with a window for Tarmogoyf/Treasure Cruise). If they're throwing Electrolyze at you on your End Step, just take two damage. Save your countermagic for the cards that really matter, like those that remove your guys or put UWR up on cards. Be patient, and all those fancy cantrips will draw them a whole lot of Flooded Strand.
UWR Control gets a bit trickier if they have an intimate knowledge of your manabase, in which case you should hover around 3 perfect lands (i.e. complimentary Core Shocks and basic Island) to avoid getting cut off White or Red via Tectonic Edge. Luckily, the UWR pilot has no idea what the hell he's playing against most of the time.
In case that's what you meant by "UWR Midrange," the Restoration Angel-Blade Splicer deck poses much more of a threat. Against them, slam a threat very quickly and try to get in for as much damage as you can before they stabilize the board; after that, pour your resources into burning their face, but it's one of Counter-Cat's tougher matchups.