I had planned a theoretical deck around going through the Persist loop as fast as humanly possible and casting Bitter Ordeal to just empty their library and win, but that's not a deck I need to build because my Meta is controlled by me essentially with input.
When I started playing your Anafenza with persist combo I was in love with it. I really wanted to push the combo further myself, but the lack of Murderous Redcap in Abzan colors was holding it back. I came to the thought process that if you wanted to optimize that combo it would have to be in either Jund (sadly you'd be cutting stuff like mono-white Anafenza and Cathar's Crusade,) 5 color, or wait to see what the WGBR commander will be this fall. IMO unless the WGBR commander has some solid graveyard or +1/+1 counter interaction, I think 5 color would be the way to go so you can include Glen Elendra Archmage and River Kelpie.
And boy does Bitter Ordeal look so fun for a win-con.
So do you feel the Living Plane combo is preferable to the persist combo? Are there less feel bads with one over the other? I realize that you took it out to avoid redundancy with your other lists.
I had a friend running Captain Sisay drop it on us a couple weeks ago and it wasn't all that bad, it just meant we were locked out of the game. Do you do anything to make sure it resolves or do the hatebears tend to do that job for you?
I guess my concern is, is Living Plane lock the only way to win other than getting in with 2/2s?
I used to run Action's list with persist combo and living plane both in the deck and the Living Plane combo was much more consistent due to it requiring less cards and the combo pieces are relevant to the deck.
Now that I cut the persist pieces out I can fit more tutors, card draw and answers and its been great. Depending on my opening hand I either try to play into the combo as fast as possible or I try to slow everyone else down and apply pressure with the bears. I personally also run Armageddon as its a great way to seal your or outpace everyone when you've got dorks and tax cards in play.
Shaman of Forgotten Ways is also a decent plan C. Though I haven't played enough games with my new deck to see yet.
@Action I like the idea of cards like Ghostly Prison and Peacekeeper in creature heavy metas. I'll have to try them out myself.
Living Death, Vraska, and Living Plane are the only things Teeg blocks in the deck.
The rest of the cards you are mentioning are only affecting 2-3 cards each. Hardly an issue and easy to work around especially when these hate bears are going to slow down your opponents much more.
Mirari’s wake and 3cmc+ ramp isn’t necessary. This deck’s average cmc is between 2-3.
Edit: Oops Action beat me to it.
Also @Action, how are you liking the tax variant you're running now? Are the swords still pulling their weight with Null Rod and Stony around? I feel like the Living Plane lock isn't enough for a win con in my deck. The deck isn't hardcore stax and feels more midrange-y than anything so I think having an additional win-con is necessary. I'm considering on putting in Iona in as another win-con.
Oops I totally forgot to recommend Mentor! I think Mentor is better for sure. Especially when you are running 30+ creatures like yourself. Sorry about that haha.
I've mostly been playing a build extremely close to your old one (persist loops as a wincon) until recently and just converted over to a more taxing list with Living Plane + Linvala/Norn being a primary wincon. I only have about 10 EDH games under my belt with it and so far I've been enjoying the list a lot so far.
Looks good so far! Obviously the bears you use are all entirely meta-dependent so can't recommend much there, but I do have a few suggestions to improve the deck's consistency.
Bane gives you a tutorable and potentially recurrable version of Gust, though not at instant speed.
Tireless Tracker is just more card draw. I've read Ohran Viper is super good too. I'm going to splash it in my deck and test.
Deluge is just nuts. Merciless Eviction is an amazing board wipe. But you have so much spot removal I don't think its necessary for its cmc.
Birds and Bloom are great color generators especially in a color intensive deck like this. I'd cut the elves of deep shadow because its more important to generate green or white in this deck IMO.
Yisan is amazing in a control deck like this. First Turn it'll grab you a dork or Deathrite. Turns 2+ are instant speed hate bears from your library. With all the tax effects it'll be difficult for players to kill your permanents and it'll allow Yisan to go nuts.
If your meta is super mana rock heavy, I'd consider going full artifact hate with Null Rod/Stony/Kataki and drop the equipment package and rocks and instead run more 1 cmc dorks and card draw etc. Only activated ability artifacts I run now are Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Skullclamp.
I hate to bump my own posts, but this is a legitimate calling. I am looking to get away from the infinite persist loop and into something more suitable. The reason is well...Prossh kinda does it and now Roon is doing Boonweaver with various sack outlets. Anafenza needs a new gimmick. I am thinking Stax, but a softer version. Lemme know what ya'll think. Should I go more tokens? Equipment? Stax? Keep it the way it is?
Also, Shadows over Innistrad review is up (been up for a little while).
I think soft stax is the way to go. Razzilox has an Anafenza deck as well, but uses stax tools like Thalia, Glowrider, Vryn Wingmare, Trinisphere and Thorn as opposed to ones like smokestacks, winter/static orb etc. Maybe you can get some inspiration from that?
Hypothetically speaking, if a single card in this deck were to become a Protean Hulk for a day... what card should it be?
I'd say just cut out any of your 5+cmc creatures, probably Angel, Nacatl or Baloths? However you don't have any sac outlets in your deck from what I can see. With all the land tutoring you have, I'd swap in a High Market for a day as well.
The way I see it, you'd pack it a lot 2 cmc or less rocks/rituals, some looting effects like anvil of bogardan and faithless looting, large threatening creatures like eldrazis, and some reanimation. Just cheat everything into play via cards like Amulet, Sneak, and the big man himself, Rakdos, and if you have guys like Urabrask or Anger around, more power to ya.
I would expect a typical game with the deck would be:
T1-T2: Ramp/Fix
T3: Play a low cmc damage enabler/Loot/Ramp/Tutor
T4+: Play Rakdos/Cheat dudes into play
For card draw, I'd rely on looting effects like Wheel of Fortune, Magus of the Wheel, Faithless looting and such. But also include the good stuff black draw like Necropotence.
I think all your low drops (3 or less) are going to be all rocks, draw/loot, utility creatures, and damage enablers. You'll probably want anywhere between 10-15 high cmc creatures to cheat out/reanimate.
First off, love this deck. I just built a variation of this deck with more focus on assembling the combo and cutting the swords due to their monetary cost. I've only gotten 5 games under my belt so I have little experience piloting this type of deck. In your experience playing your deck, how detrimental has your equipment package been for you?
Just trying to gauge their importance to see if I need to adopt them into my deck as well.
Felidar is definitely a card that belongs in a control build. He's just is not working out. Every time I draw him I wish he was something to develop my board state. That is why I'm dusting off my copy of Rampaging Baloths. I used to run this card during my big token build, but couldn't get much out of him because I had a less than stellar ramp package. Obviously my ramp is nowhere near as strong as Bob's but I think Baloths will still get a lot of mileage with what I'm piloting now.
Saffi has been amazing with Sun Titan, but Karmic guide will be swapping places with her for the sake of deck synergy. Guide can be tokened which is my main motivation for the swap.
Now that I have a lot more draw options, I think it is time to retest Budoka Gardener to help spit my excess lands into play as well as serve as a threatening token generator.
I feel like the deck is starting to come into its own a bit. I’m really digging all the recursion options available to me and I think I may try to adopt more recurrion elements (Emeria Shepherd, Saffi, Gift of the Immortal, etc) and focus the deck towards all of that.
Yeah, this deck is a lot of fun to play. Might be a bit annoying to play against though, judging by some reactions. =P I just like that it's got a great amount of resilience, and a good amount of threat-answering.
This sounds exactly what I'm looking to do with Trostani! Very excited to pilot this build.
I actually just got a Cradle of Vitality in the mail today, which I think I stole from your list? either way, it seems like a fun card to toss in to open up the Commander damage option if needed, or a different avenue of aggression. I may slide it into a flex slot for tomorrow for fun, though I probably won't get a lot of games in tomorrow as I have a few things that will make me arrive late to the LGS.
Actually the card I've been using in my flex slot has been Sunbond. It goes infinite when attached to Spike Feeder and theoretically (I haven't used it in a game yet) would give Trostani a venue to kill an opponent via commander damage. I once used Cradle during my Big Token build days but didn't really get anything out of of it because I didn't have sufficient ramp back then and too high of an average cmc. I'm sure it'll be more successful in your landfall variant with all the mana it ramps into.
Bob, I gotta say I think I may need to copy almost your entire deck. I've been playing with my new variant as of late and have been having a lot of trouble with it. I've been having a streak where I make myself a threat, get neutered, then another player gets out of hand and I can't stop them. The only thing I'm really digging from my build that is different from yours is Archangel of Thune interactions I want to try to make a strong Trostani EDH, but I feel like I'm taking the deck in the wrong the direction. Trostani Landfall may be the best possible variant to experiment with.
I'll proxy your list and try it in my meta this weekend and see what I find works and doesn't work on my end then post a revised list over here.
If you like Nissa as a card draw machine, then she's likely fine. A kind of green Phyrexian Arena. She can at least also be brought back with sun titan, lark, and guide as well. I wouldn't try to jump hoops with Elvish Visionary (although he'd probably be fun with Blade of Selves).
Likewise, if you like Ajani, you could always leave him in. Decks don't always have to be 100% crazy optimized, you need to leave a little room for fun, =).
You make some great points, bob. I've had a lot of success with Nissa so far as a green phyrexian arena, and I do love me some 120/120 avatar tokens.
Do you have a Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam? I haven't played my trostani vs MLD, but in past decks those have been shining all stars in recovery when powered by a few rocks. My Trostani also runs Tilling Treefolk and Titania, Protector of Argoth. Of course, I use them to power up some cycling lands and my fetches, but you can easily ignore the cyclers and use them to power up the land ramp, making room to replace the land search spells/dudes for better manarocks. Fellwar stone, Darksteel Ingot, and Coalition Relic are probably all good for those situations.
Oh man I wish I had a crucible. It would be an auto-include in here.
So I played a lot of games over the last weekend. Most of the games was Trostani, Deretti-stax, Ayli-cleric tribal, and Narset-superfriends. That pod didn't go so well as every game the Narset player ran train and took over every game with things like Omniscience, The Chain Veil into Ral Zarek and Narset Transcendent and other shenanigans like that.
After that player changed out his Narset for Zozu and Krenko, games were a lot more stable. I won 1 game with Spike Feeder + Thune after taking 20 commander damage from a Gisela with Aurelia backing her up. Every other game I drew Test of Endurance and it just kept feeling like a dead card to me. I've realized I've never won a game with it. Felidar not only has a much more lenient win-con, but I can still play it when I'm at less than 40 life to as a beater. I think I'll cut Test, but keep Felidar in a bit longer, but it is still on notice.
Another that has bothered me is my lack of answers. I have several creature tutors, but outside of Slime, I don't really have any valid targets to break my way through a win. I'm thinking of testing Reclamation Sage, Terastodon, Bane of Progress and any other creature with ETB removal traits.
I noticed without any direct replacements for Kodama's and Cultivate I was hurting a bit more in the ramp department. I think I may either put them back in, or find some suitable 2-3 cmc rocks to allow me to ramp while alleviating some of the damage of MLD in my meta.
When I started playing your Anafenza with persist combo I was in love with it. I really wanted to push the combo further myself, but the lack of Murderous Redcap in Abzan colors was holding it back. I came to the thought process that if you wanted to optimize that combo it would have to be in either Jund (sadly you'd be cutting stuff like mono-white Anafenza and Cathar's Crusade,) 5 color, or wait to see what the WGBR commander will be this fall. IMO unless the WGBR commander has some solid graveyard or +1/+1 counter interaction, I think 5 color would be the way to go so you can include Glen Elendra Archmage and River Kelpie.
And boy does Bitter Ordeal look so fun for a win-con.
Mind sharing your list? It is always good comparing to what we all have to inspire new ideas.
I used to run Action's list with persist combo and living plane both in the deck and the Living Plane combo was much more consistent due to it requiring less cards and the combo pieces are relevant to the deck.
Now that I cut the persist pieces out I can fit more tutors, card draw and answers and its been great. Depending on my opening hand I either try to play into the combo as fast as possible or I try to slow everyone else down and apply pressure with the bears. I personally also run Armageddon as its a great way to seal your or outpace everyone when you've got dorks and tax cards in play.
Shaman of Forgotten Ways is also a decent plan C. Though I haven't played enough games with my new deck to see yet.
@Action I like the idea of cards like Ghostly Prison and Peacekeeper in creature heavy metas. I'll have to try them out myself.
I also want to try out Ohran Viper as a wannabe 2nd Phyrexian Arena
The rest of the cards you are mentioning are only affecting 2-3 cards each. Hardly an issue and easy to work around especially when these hate bears are going to slow down your opponents much more.
Mirari’s wake and 3cmc+ ramp isn’t necessary. This deck’s average cmc is between 2-3.
Edit: Oops Action beat me to it.
Also @Action, how are you liking the tax variant you're running now? Are the swords still pulling their weight with Null Rod and Stony around? I feel like the Living Plane lock isn't enough for a win con in my deck. The deck isn't hardcore stax and feels more midrange-y than anything so I think having an additional win-con is necessary. I'm considering on putting in Iona in as another win-con.
Oops I totally forgot to recommend Mentor! I think Mentor is better for sure. Especially when you are running 30+ creatures like yourself. Sorry about that haha.
Here is my Anafenza deck http://deckstats.net/decks/9126/453406-anafenza?saved=1&lng=en
I've mostly been playing a build extremely close to your old one (persist loops as a wincon) until recently and just converted over to a more taxing list with Living Plane + Linvala/Norn being a primary wincon. I only have about 10 EDH games under my belt with it and so far I've been enjoying the list a lot so far.
Some suggested cuts and adds:
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Merciless Eviction
1 Chromatic Lantern
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
1 Aether Vial
1 Bane of Progress
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Bloom Tender
1 Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
Bane gives you a tutorable and potentially recurrable version of Gust, though not at instant speed.
Tireless Tracker is just more card draw. I've read Ohran Viper is super good too. I'm going to splash it in my deck and test.
Deluge is just nuts. Merciless Eviction is an amazing board wipe. But you have so much spot removal I don't think its necessary for its cmc.
Birds and Bloom are great color generators especially in a color intensive deck like this. I'd cut the elves of deep shadow because its more important to generate green or white in this deck IMO.
Yisan is amazing in a control deck like this. First Turn it'll grab you a dork or Deathrite. Turns 2+ are instant speed hate bears from your library. With all the tax effects it'll be difficult for players to kill your permanents and it'll allow Yisan to go nuts.
If your meta is super mana rock heavy, I'd consider going full artifact hate with Null Rod/Stony/Kataki and drop the equipment package and rocks and instead run more 1 cmc dorks and card draw etc. Only activated ability artifacts I run now are Sol Ring, Mana Vault and Skullclamp.
I think soft stax is the way to go. Razzilox has an Anafenza deck as well, but uses stax tools like Thalia, Glowrider, Vryn Wingmare, Trinisphere and Thorn as opposed to ones like smokestacks, winter/static orb etc. Maybe you can get some inspiration from that?
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/anafenza-staxhatebears/#c2709650
I'd say just cut out any of your 5+cmc creatures, probably Angel, Nacatl or Baloths? However you don't have any sac outlets in your deck from what I can see. With all the land tutoring you have, I'd swap in a High Market for a day as well.
The way I see it, you'd pack it a lot 2 cmc or less rocks/rituals, some looting effects like anvil of bogardan and faithless looting, large threatening creatures like eldrazis, and some reanimation. Just cheat everything into play via cards like Amulet, Sneak, and the big man himself, Rakdos, and if you have guys like Urabrask or Anger around, more power to ya.
I would expect a typical game with the deck would be:
T1-T2: Ramp/Fix
T3: Play a low cmc damage enabler/Loot/Ramp/Tutor
T4+: Play Rakdos/Cheat dudes into play
For card draw, I'd rely on looting effects like Wheel of Fortune, Magus of the Wheel, Faithless looting and such. But also include the good stuff black draw like Necropotence.
I think all your low drops (3 or less) are going to be all rocks, draw/loot, utility creatures, and damage enablers. You'll probably want anywhere between 10-15 high cmc creatures to cheat out/reanimate.
Hope this helps!
First off, love this deck. I just built a variation of this deck with more focus on assembling the combo and cutting the swords due to their monetary cost. I've only gotten 5 games under my belt so I have little experience piloting this type of deck. In your experience playing your deck, how detrimental has your equipment package been for you?
Just trying to gauge their importance to see if I need to adopt them into my deck as well.
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Karmic Guide
1 Budoka Gardener
1 Rampaging Baloths
1 Selesnya Signet
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Felidar Sovereign
1 Elvish Visionary
Felidar is definitely a card that belongs in a control build. He's just is not working out. Every time I draw him I wish he was something to develop my board state. That is why I'm dusting off my copy of Rampaging Baloths. I used to run this card during my big token build, but couldn't get much out of him because I had a less than stellar ramp package. Obviously my ramp is nowhere near as strong as Bob's but I think Baloths will still get a lot of mileage with what I'm piloting now.
Saffi has been amazing with Sun Titan, but Karmic guide will be swapping places with her for the sake of deck synergy. Guide can be tokened which is my main motivation for the swap.
Now that I have a lot more draw options, I think it is time to retest Budoka Gardener to help spit my excess lands into play as well as serve as a threatening token generator.
I feel like the deck is starting to come into its own a bit. I’m really digging all the recursion options available to me and I think I may try to adopt more recurrion elements (Emeria Shepherd, Saffi, Gift of the Immortal, etc) and focus the deck towards all of that.
This sounds exactly what I'm looking to do with Trostani! Very excited to pilot this build.
Actually the card I've been using in my flex slot has been Sunbond. It goes infinite when attached to Spike Feeder and theoretically (I haven't used it in a game yet) would give Trostani a venue to kill an opponent via commander damage. I once used Cradle during my Big Token build days but didn't really get anything out of of it because I didn't have sufficient ramp back then and too high of an average cmc. I'm sure it'll be more successful in your landfall variant with all the mana it ramps into.
I'll proxy your list and try it in my meta this weekend and see what I find works and doesn't work on my end then post a revised list over here.
Thanks again and keep up the great deckbuilding!
You make some great points, bob. I've had a lot of success with Nissa so far as a green phyrexian arena, and I do love me some 120/120 avatar tokens.
Oh man I wish I had a crucible. It would be an auto-include in here.
So I played a lot of games over the last weekend. Most of the games was Trostani, Deretti-stax, Ayli-cleric tribal, and Narset-superfriends. That pod didn't go so well as every game the Narset player ran train and took over every game with things like Omniscience, The Chain Veil into Ral Zarek and Narset Transcendent and other shenanigans like that.
After that player changed out his Narset for Zozu and Krenko, games were a lot more stable. I won 1 game with Spike Feeder + Thune after taking 20 commander damage from a Gisela with Aurelia backing her up. Every other game I drew Test of Endurance and it just kept feeling like a dead card to me. I've realized I've never won a game with it. Felidar not only has a much more lenient win-con, but I can still play it when I'm at less than 40 life to as a beater. I think I'll cut Test, but keep Felidar in a bit longer, but it is still on notice.
Another that has bothered me is my lack of answers. I have several creature tutors, but outside of Slime, I don't really have any valid targets to break my way through a win. I'm thinking of testing Reclamation Sage, Terastodon, Bane of Progress and any other creature with ETB removal traits.
I noticed without any direct replacements for Kodama's and Cultivate I was hurting a bit more in the ramp department. I think I may either put them back in, or find some suitable 2-3 cmc rocks to allow me to ramp while alleviating some of the damage of MLD in my meta.