You're making me want to try Ad Nauseam in my own list, now. What's your average CMC? Mine's sitting at 2.26 including lands, so it might be worth replacing one of the sorcery speed lose 3 draw 3 spells with AN just for the ability to dig for a specific card. When drawing only five cards, it compares unfavorably with Moonlight Bargain but the ability to dig deeper is certainly worth exploring. I'm just very risk-averse and popping Myojin of Night's Reach or Rune-scarred Demon make me uneasy.
None of them are good enough to actually play, though Mystic & Fiery come close.
From which perspective do you make this claim? In cutthroat tier 0.5 combo decks I could see the cmc being unreasonable but in the average meta that goes beyond turn 7 some of them are very useful. Mystic Confluence is a pseudo Cryptic Command, and Wretched Confluence gives heavy black-based control decks a very versatile modal spell, something those decks tend to lack.
Couldn't speak for the sorcery speed ones as they seem pretty underwhelming.
These are all great suggestions. There's also Wretched Confluence, which I've found to be quite useful. Modal spells are fantastic. There's also the Arena-creatures like Graveborn Muse and Bloodgift Demon
Convince everyone to not play with him. That or proxy a 60 card unrestricted Vintage storm list and tell him you don't respect the deck construction rules.
Gatekeeper of Malakir looks like a decent cut for Crucible. Don't get me wrong, Gatekeeper is a solid card in regular 1v1 60 card formats, but lackluster in EDH.
Oops, missed Scour! It's such an underrated card, I'd run it over Karn in MBC all day every day solely because of the instant speed. All is Dust could replace Ulamog since you run so few colored permanents yourself, and getting rid of pesky enchantments is a bonus for MBC.
Necro may be turn the game into archenemy, but it's totally worth it. It's just that good. I'm not a fan of Silence the Believers since 7 mana to get rid of two creatures is just a bad deal here. Necro should draw you into your sweepers or spot removal on its own.
I'd keep Rapid Hybridization tbh. I used to run a similar list, and a lot of times you need the spell as low as possible. Having the one creature removal that hits everything (the others have a color clause if I recall) is really good. Actually, I guess that's meta dependent.
Moment's Peace may be redundant. Constant Mists is all ya need and by the time you do it'll show up/ you can get it back in time. Abrupt Decay is a personal favorite too, a lot of combo pieces are 3 or less.
Hero's Downfall and Murder lack a color restriction, but 1cmc removal is pretty good considering Tasigur's activation cost.
You may be right about Moment's Peace but I really like being able to dredge into it. I'm actually probably going to cut a counter, I'm just not sure which one. I've never been a big fan of Arcane Denial and only included it because of the praises of others. A 2cmc hard counter is nice but that card draw clause makes me queasy.
Interesting point. I'm a little worried about going all in due to graveyard hate but more controlled self-milling could be worthwhile.
Given how little card draw you're running, you're already pretty all-in against graveyard hate, so you might as well optimize for the case where you don't see it.
Here's a question, that might lead to clarify card choices: Why is this a Tasigur deck, and not a Damia deck?
Hm, good point. The only graveyard hate I really fear would be Rest in Peace and other persistent grave hate, not Relic of Progenitus and the like, due to the fact that I can always restock my 'yard.
I chose Tasigur exclusively because of how interactive he is. I really like forcing my opponents to make decisions, because if they make enoigh of them theyre bound to make mistakes eventually. I feel that Damia primarily lends herself to ramp/goodstuff strategies which I'd rather avoid, whereas Tasigur is either combo or control. So, the question becomes: do I add more card draw to compensate for the weakness to graveyard hate, or double down and pray I can answer them before they wreck me?
Ulamog is nice, but if you're not trying to win with through combat damage I think Scour from Existence fulfills the removal niche at a much lower cost. Exile can be super relevant sometimes, too. On paper it's a garbage card but being able to answer just about everything at instant speed is very nice in MBC.
I dislike Dark Ritual in a multiplayer format. I'd rather see Mana Vault in that slot.
You could probably use more card draw in general, but since your list is so tutor reliant I'm not sure I'd cut them for card draw.
Shadow of Doubt is a powerful card that can act as LD off fetch land, counter tutors, and counter Bitter Ordeal or other deck exile. Plus it's a cantrip. Really easy to get people to give you it back, no one cares to even find out what a person wants to tutor and its a pretty frequent occurence.
I had completely forgotten it existed, but it's definitely worth testing. Doesn't hurt that the art is fantastic.
I also want to find room for Curse of the Swine, though maybe I won't need mass removal as much as I think I will. Maybe something like:
Pretty much. Most similar lists I've seen/read about describe slow Tasigur beats as being sufficient for closing most games, but I included Runechanter's Pike to speed up that process. The general gameplan is to sit back, let everyone else tear themselves apart while intervening only when necessary before grinding the remaining opponents down.
There's also a Mindslaver lock which is primarily included because of how cute it is.
Hermit Druid and Tunnel Vision might be helpful. Druid draws you lands, and Tunnel Vision tutors, but both give you ramp for recasting Tasigur and fodder for recursion. In general, the more you can self-mill, the fewer, cheaper, and narrower your removal can be.
Interesting point. I'm a little worried about going all in due to graveyard hate but more controlled self-milling could be worthwhile. Tunnel Vision could also double as a win con if I added AEtherspouts, though that trick would rarely work. I'm worried the mass removal suite is too weak to dissuade being targeted by more aggressive strategies.
There is a time for everything,
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
- Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, New International Version
Overall, the gameplan is pretty simple. Ramp, disrupt, politic, win. Note: I am intentionally avoiding infinite mana combos. I know, Tasigur is basically his own win condition with infinite colored mana, but this is 'serious casual' deck meant for 75% tables. Also, I'm trying to go creatureless for aesthetic purposes. I'm likely going to break on this and add in Seedborn Muse and a few others, but for now I'm going to stick to it.
Putting this list back together was very frustrating. I'm not happy with the removal suite, the counter suite, the card draw package, or the ramp package. The win condition(s) might be too compact. I haven't had the time to do much testing outside of 1v1s with my brother, but those were basically worthless. I won't be able to properly test the deck for an indefinite amount of time, either, but I wanted to get a rough draft down for critique.
Removal: This is where I'm almost confident since many cheap removal spells are included, but I'm still running some expensive removal. Since this isn't a cEDH deck, I think it's fair to play slower removal for a slower meta, but still cheap answers are better than expensive ones.
Counters: Yuck. I want to throw in Cryptic Command but 4cmc is a tough sell. Exclude seems like the easiest replacement, and in retrospect I'm not sure why I play the latter over the former. I can't afford Mana Drain or Force of Will, both of which would be incredible inclusions. Mystic Confluence is a powerful card but 5cmc is just a ridiculous price to pay off of Tasigur's ability.
Card draw: I'm pretty all-in on the graveyard plan for card advantage so Rest in Peace is a nightmare when it resolves. Because of that I want to diversify my card draw. Fact or Fiction is plenty good but I need to find more room for stuff like Painful Truths, Notion Rain, and Manifold Insights. My biggest problem is finding cuts for the non-recursive draw.
Ramp: Rocks or spells? I'm almost positive that unless I'm running DramaticScepter that ramp spells are better since they get turned into Tasigur delve fuel when I'm ready to cast him. MLD is all but unheard of in my meta, but artifact removal (and my own Pernicious Deed) are things. Still, the argument could be made that since I can deploy rocks and they stay on the field that they're less dead cards to return with Tasigur's ability.
Win conditions: Well, infinite turns is a better approach than relying solely on commander damage. I like the infinite turn approach because all of the pieces are individually useful, which is great for a control deck. However, that compactness is a double-edged sword if I get Sadistic Sacramented or some other kind of preemptive library exile. As such, I wanted to diversify the win conditions with infinite Mindslavers (either with Academy Ruins or Tasigur's ability) or quick beats with Runechanter's Pike. I think I need something else but I'm not sure what. I started with a reanimation package but quickly cut it since it requires far too much dedication. Any other ideas?
That's about it for now. I'm definitely looking for feedback and criticism since I won't be able to play for the near future.
I like the concept behind this deck a lot. I'm working on a Tasigur list as well and you've given me some food for thought.
Runechanter's Pike for surprise general damage wins? It also turns your recursion/utility creatures into potent blockers that might persuade people to attack elsewhere.
Memory Plunder is excellent. If you're in a wrath-heavy meta, being able to Damnation at instant speed blows fog effects out of the water. The fact that it can be used to steal random other cards is just icing on the cake.
Fact or Fiction is as good as ever and belongs in every blue deck.
I heard the new Vampiric Rites is pretty sweet in Chainer...but I think Death Cloud, Infernal Darkness and Mindslicer are pretty sweet too. Definitely better than Infernal Tribute
Don't knock Infernal Tribute. It's a subtle virtual card advantage engine that doubles as a sac outlet for Gary. My favorite play was saccing Cabal Coffers to Tribute only to replay it with Crucible of Worlds to generate just enough mana to kill the table with Exsanguinate. That said, I'm never happy to see it, so I'll cute it to make room for Wretched Confluence. Also, Blighted Fen is worth a shot. I normally like to keep my Swamp count high but repeatable removal with Crucible is nice.
I'm intentionally avoiding a stax/resource denial strategy because of how my playgroup dislikes that strategy, but a big Death Cloud makes me reminisce about Onslaught/Mirrodin Standard.
@ MrCoupon: Don't sweat it. As it turns out my meta is fairly moderate (let's say somewhere in between Legacy and Modern, to continue your metaphor) so while my deck is a bit on the strong side it doesn't completely dominate.
Anyway, time to update the list with changes I've made. I'm pretty satisfied with the list overall. The only things really missing are money cards (Karn Liberated, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Mana Crypt, fetches, etc) that enter the area of diminishing returns for me, so I probably won't be buying them. The following are on the chopping block:
Crucible of Worlds: Currently primarily in the list to provide a way to get back Cabal Coffers, which can also be done with Yawgmoth's Will. If I had fetches it would be an autoinclude but there's no MLD in my meta so it's a dead draw 90% of the time. I have used the Strip Mine recursion to win a few games though so it's still in for now. I've also thought about cutting a Swamp for Blighted Fen.
Various 2cmc mana rocks that ETB tapped: These are mostly relics from when the commander was Erebos, God of the Dead and getting him out turn 3 was the focus. I've been thinking of cutting them all for Thran Dynamo, Worn Powerstone, Mana Vault, Hedron Archive, etc.
I'm wanting to find room for Wretched Confluence. It looks legit, as versatility from cards is always useful for MBC. The most obvious thing to cut would be Ambition's Cost, but there are still times I find the deck is lacking in card draw, particularly late game. Maybe Infernal Tribute? It's the worst sac outlet in the deck, though it's enabled a few wins and is a fantastic devotion enabler.
The only card sort of interesting to me so far is the new Ob planeswalker. He is a bit awkward for me in my decks as he sits at the same cmc as Bloodgift Demon. While Ob does offer better flexibility in his Murder neg ability, Bloodgift Demon is easier to recur and can attack/block. Therefore its going to come down to price. If I can get the new Ob for $5-$8, then I would add him to decks. But if he is going to be rocking a $30+ price tag, I'll just spend the 50 cents on a Bloodgift Demon.
I think a better comparison is Liliana of the Dark Realms. Both of their +1 abilities are effectively card draw, their -3 is removal, and their ultimates who cares how often do walkers ult in non-superfriends lists. I'd say run both Ob Nix and Bloodgift Demon. At least, in my deck I would since I can never draw enough cards.
Also, high fives for liking Scour.
From which perspective do you make this claim? In cutthroat tier 0.5 combo decks I could see the cmc being unreasonable but in the average meta that goes beyond turn 7 some of them are very useful. Mystic Confluence is a pseudo Cryptic Command, and Wretched Confluence gives heavy black-based control decks a very versatile modal spell, something those decks tend to lack.
Couldn't speak for the sorcery speed ones as they seem pretty underwhelming.
These are all great suggestions. There's also Wretched Confluence, which I've found to be quite useful. Modal spells are fantastic. There's also the Arena-creatures like Graveborn Muse and Bloodgift Demon
Oops, missed Scour! It's such an underrated card, I'd run it over Karn in MBC all day every day solely because of the instant speed. All is Dust could replace Ulamog since you run so few colored permanents yourself, and getting rid of pesky enchantments is a bonus for MBC.
Necro may be turn the game into archenemy, but it's totally worth it. It's just that good. I'm not a fan of Silence the Believers since 7 mana to get rid of two creatures is just a bad deal here. Necro should draw you into your sweepers or spot removal on its own.
Hero's Downfall and Murder lack a color restriction, but 1cmc removal is pretty good considering Tasigur's activation cost.
You may be right about Moment's Peace but I really like being able to dredge into it. I'm actually probably going to cut a counter, I'm just not sure which one. I've never been a big fan of Arcane Denial and only included it because of the praises of others. A 2cmc hard counter is nice but that card draw clause makes me queasy.
Hm, good point. The only graveyard hate I really fear would be Rest in Peace and other persistent grave hate, not Relic of Progenitus and the like, due to the fact that I can always restock my 'yard.
I chose Tasigur exclusively because of how interactive he is. I really like forcing my opponents to make decisions, because if they make enoigh of them theyre bound to make mistakes eventually. I feel that Damia primarily lends herself to ramp/goodstuff strategies which I'd rather avoid, whereas Tasigur is either combo or control. So, the question becomes: do I add more card draw to compensate for the weakness to graveyard hate, or double down and pray I can answer them before they wreck me?
Ulamog is nice, but if you're not trying to win with through combat damage I think Scour from Existence fulfills the removal niche at a much lower cost. Exile can be super relevant sometimes, too. On paper it's a garbage card but being able to answer just about everything at instant speed is very nice in MBC.
I dislike Dark Ritual in a multiplayer format. I'd rather see Mana Vault in that slot.
You could probably use more card draw in general, but since your list is so tutor reliant I'm not sure I'd cut them for card draw.
No Necropotence in a monoblack list? Shame!
I had completely forgotten it existed, but it's definitely worth testing. Doesn't hurt that the art is fantastic.
I also want to find room for Curse of the Swine, though maybe I won't need mass removal as much as I think I will. Maybe something like:
- Rapid Hybridization
- Dismember
+ Shadow of Doubt
+ Curse of the Swine
Pretty much. Most similar lists I've seen/read about describe slow Tasigur beats as being sufficient for closing most games, but I included Runechanter's Pike to speed up that process. The general gameplan is to sit back, let everyone else tear themselves apart while intervening only when necessary before grinding the remaining opponents down.
There's also a Mindslaver lock which is primarily included because of how cute it is.
Interesting point. I'm a little worried about going all in due to graveyard hate but more controlled self-milling could be worthwhile. Tunnel Vision could also double as a win con if I added AEtherspouts, though that trick would rarely work. I'm worried the mass removal suite is too weak to dissuade being targeted by more aggressive strategies.
and a season for every activity under the heavens:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain from embracing,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.
- Ecclesiastes 3:1-8, New International Version
As part of my ongoing series of revisiting my old decks and giving them a facelift, inspired by the cEDH deck Seasons Pastigur I present Tasigur, the Golden Fang Seasons Past Turns.
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Lands: 38
1 Academy Ruins
1 Barren Moor
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Breeding Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Fetid Pools
1 Flooded Grove
4 Forest
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Hinterland Harbor
5 Island
1 Llanowar Wastes
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Mana Confluence
1 Maze of Ith
1 Opulent Palace
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Strip Mine
1 Sunken Ruins
2 Swamp
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Twilight Mire
1 Underground River
1 Watery Grave
1 Woodland Cemetery
1 Yavimaya Coast
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Arcane Denial
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Beast Within
1 Capsize
1 Constant Mists
1 Counterspell
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Disallow
1 Entomb
1 Evacuation
1 Exclude
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Far // Away
1 Forbid
1 Harrow
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Moment's Peace
1 Muddle the Mixture
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Nature's Claim
1 Negate
1 Noxious Revival
1 Pongify
1 Putrefy
1 Rapid Hybridization
1 Reality Shift
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Sultai Charm
1 Swan Song
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Voidslime
1 Cultivate
1 Damnation
1 Dark Petition
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Farseek
1 Kodama's Reach
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nature's Lore
1 Nostalgic Dreams
1 Rampant Growth
1 Regrowth
1 Seasons Past
1 Splendid Reclamation
1 Time Warp
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Treasured Find
1 Walk the Aeons
Artifacts: 4
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 Runechanter's Pike
1 Sol Ring
Enchantments: 7
1 As Foretold
1 Exploration
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Sylvan Library
The deck is fundamentally the same with the added win condition of infinite turns with Seasons Past + Time Warp/Walk the Aeons + a tutor.
Overall, the gameplan is pretty simple. Ramp, disrupt, politic, win. Note: I am intentionally avoiding infinite mana combos. I know, Tasigur is basically his own win condition with infinite colored mana, but this is 'serious casual' deck meant for 75% tables. Also, I'm trying to go creatureless for aesthetic purposes. I'm likely going to break on this and add in Seedborn Muse and a few others, but for now I'm going to stick to it.
Putting this list back together was very frustrating. I'm not happy with the removal suite, the counter suite, the card draw package, or the ramp package. The win condition(s) might be too compact. I haven't had the time to do much testing outside of 1v1s with my brother, but those were basically worthless. I won't be able to properly test the deck for an indefinite amount of time, either, but I wanted to get a rough draft down for critique.
Removal: This is where I'm almost confident since many cheap removal spells are included, but I'm still running some expensive removal. Since this isn't a cEDH deck, I think it's fair to play slower removal for a slower meta, but still cheap answers are better than expensive ones.
Counters: Yuck. I want to throw in Cryptic Command but 4cmc is a tough sell. Exclude seems like the easiest replacement, and in retrospect I'm not sure why I play the latter over the former. I can't afford Mana Drain or Force of Will, both of which would be incredible inclusions. Mystic Confluence is a powerful card but 5cmc is just a ridiculous price to pay off of Tasigur's ability.
Card draw: I'm pretty all-in on the graveyard plan for card advantage so Rest in Peace is a nightmare when it resolves. Because of that I want to diversify my card draw. Fact or Fiction is plenty good but I need to find more room for stuff like Painful Truths, Notion Rain, and Manifold Insights. My biggest problem is finding cuts for the non-recursive draw.
Ramp: Rocks or spells? I'm almost positive that unless I'm running Dramatic Scepter that ramp spells are better since they get turned into Tasigur delve fuel when I'm ready to cast him. MLD is all but unheard of in my meta, but artifact removal (and my own Pernicious Deed) are things. Still, the argument could be made that since I can deploy rocks and they stay on the field that they're less dead cards to return with Tasigur's ability.
Win conditions: Well, infinite turns is a better approach than relying solely on commander damage. I like the infinite turn approach because all of the pieces are individually useful, which is great for a control deck. However, that compactness is a double-edged sword if I get Sadistic Sacramented or some other kind of preemptive library exile. As such, I wanted to diversify the win conditions with infinite Mindslavers (either with Academy Ruins or Tasigur's ability) or quick beats with Runechanter's Pike. I think I need something else but I'm not sure what. I started with a reanimation package but quickly cut it since it requires far too much dedication. Any other ideas?
That's about it for now. I'm definitely looking for feedback and criticism since I won't be able to play for the near future.
Runechanter's Pike for surprise general damage wins? It also turns your recursion/utility creatures into potent blockers that might persuade people to attack elsewhere.
Memory Plunder is excellent. If you're in a wrath-heavy meta, being able to Damnation at instant speed blows fog effects out of the water. The fact that it can be used to steal random other cards is just icing on the cake.
Fact or Fiction is as good as ever and belongs in every blue deck.
Don't knock Infernal Tribute. It's a subtle virtual card advantage engine that doubles as a sac outlet for Gary. My favorite play was saccing Cabal Coffers to Tribute only to replay it with Crucible of Worlds to generate just enough mana to kill the table with Exsanguinate. That said, I'm never happy to see it, so I'll cute it to make room for Wretched Confluence. Also, Blighted Fen is worth a shot. I normally like to keep my Swamp count high but repeatable removal with Crucible is nice.
I'm intentionally avoiding a stax/resource denial strategy because of how my playgroup dislikes that strategy, but a big Death Cloud makes me reminisce about Onslaught/Mirrodin Standard.
So:
- Infernal Tribute
- Swamp
+ Wretched Confluence
+ Blighted Fen
Still on the fence about cutting ETB tapped rocks. Hedron Archive, Worn Powerstone, Thran Dynamo, and Mana Vault are pretty good I hear.
Anyway, time to update the list with changes I've made. I'm pretty satisfied with the list overall. The only things really missing are money cards (Karn Liberated, Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Mana Crypt, fetches, etc) that enter the area of diminishing returns for me, so I probably won't be buying them. The following are on the chopping block:
Crucible of Worlds: Currently primarily in the list to provide a way to get back Cabal Coffers, which can also be done with Yawgmoth's Will. If I had fetches it would be an autoinclude but there's no MLD in my meta so it's a dead draw 90% of the time. I have used the Strip Mine recursion to win a few games though so it's still in for now. I've also thought about cutting a Swamp for Blighted Fen.
Various 2cmc mana rocks that ETB tapped: These are mostly relics from when the commander was Erebos, God of the Dead and getting him out turn 3 was the focus. I've been thinking of cutting them all for Thran Dynamo, Worn Powerstone, Mana Vault, Hedron Archive, etc.
I'm wanting to find room for Wretched Confluence. It looks legit, as versatility from cards is always useful for MBC. The most obvious thing to cut would be Ambition's Cost, but there are still times I find the deck is lacking in card draw, particularly late game. Maybe Infernal Tribute? It's the worst sac outlet in the deck, though it's enabled a few wins and is a fantastic devotion enabler.
EDIT: Oh yeah, previous cuts and additions.
- Karn Liberated ($$$)
- Polluted Delta ($$$)
- Bloodstained Mire ($$$)
- Sangromancer (cute with wraths or Myojin but pretty worthless most of the time)
+2 Swamp
+ Ob Nixilis Reignited (draws cards, kills creatures, boring but good)
+ Scour from Existence (significantly better than it looks)
I think a better comparison is Liliana of the Dark Realms. Both of their +1 abilities are effectively card draw, their -3 is removal, and their ultimates who cares how often do walkers ult in non-superfriends lists. I'd say run both Ob Nix and Bloodgift Demon. At least, in my deck I would since I can never draw enough cards.