We really just need some good card draw or a good planeswalker we can use as good condition.
I think we actually need a planeswalker. Card draw we can find in many different ways, cruel ultimatum, think twice, shadow of doubt you name it. We don't really lack draw unless it is something special that comes with black (thus we have it exclusively in control decks).
A planeswalker on the other hand will give us flexibility and (hopefully) a winning condition. So we are looking for a good rakdos colors planeswalker to seal the deal imho.
My decklist is currently under work once again but I would like to say that I am trying running one of Anger of the Gods mainboard to go against UWR, voice and other small pesky stuff I need to deal in mass. Exile is relevant with voice as well as deathrite shaman. What do you think? Is it worth a spot mainboard?
I did some heavy testing against aggro decks today and I will share my thoughts:
Against RDW/Red devotion: Highly favorable match up, around 70-30 because if they win the roll then they might pull something insane game 1 and 3. We should definitely win post SB though, and since I am running 4 anger of the gods mainboard even G1 should be no problem.
Against Wx: Well, their creatures don't pose much threat, all can be killed by anger of the gods, post sideboard by ratchet bomb and dragon is amazing.
Against Blue devotion: 60-40 I would say, post sideboard should be no prob, game one could be hard, if they get the roll it might be 55-45 but still we have a ton of ways to stabilize.
Against Rakdos haste: 60-40 actually it is a hard MU cause if you et stack in sorcery speed removals they might be faster than RDW.
Against Selesnya: The hard aggro MU imo, because selesnya charm destroys our demon, brave the elements saves his dude from anger and if we can't resolve anger then Voice is a huge problem. Probablt 55-45 though still.
Rakdos Charm other modes are actually relevant. Especially against mono blue devotion, it can win you a lost game. A resolved Master of waves with 4-5 tokens means ~10 damage to the face for nothing, And by that time he will have probably taken a bunch of damage from a demon or dragon. Additionally, killing a resolved Bident is amazing. So rakdos charm has more versatility than simply an artifact killing machine. Maybe I will actually use the demolish instead of the Wear//tear, your reasoning sounds good.
I think 4 pharika's cure might be a bit excessive but I ll try 2 on friday and see how it goes.
Hello again, I am back with some sideboard discussion. I am attending a PTQ in Amsterdam in Sunday and I still have 2 weekly events in my local store to test out the SB and I'd like your feedback. This is my SB list:
Truth be told, I am not completely satisfied with my SB. Things I am considering are:
2 Shocks vs 2 Pharika's Cure. The 2 life gain is vital against super aggressive decks but being able to kill on turn 1 is also important since it might actually save you 2 points of damage. I am playing guildgates and a couple of scry lands so I can't always secure a turn 1 red source so I wonder what is more worth here. Double black is not hard but could pose some troubles.
1 Rakdos Charm in the place of one of the Wear//Tear s.
I want to add a couple of duresses and another slaughter games but I really can't see what I should cut. Maybe Underworld connections? Although they are amazing against control and Dark Betrayals will definitely come in handy against MBD which is, in my opinion, our weakness.
Also how do you feel about Toil//Trboule. Can it be a possible answer to a huge Sphinx's revelation?
The biggest problem is that I have a hard time actually killing them. Most of my losses from MBD come from either a late mutavault when I am out of instantspeed removals or from a double Underworld Connections + Erebos, God of the Dead. The only solutions to erebos is devour flesh but if they have a mutavault on the board then I am pretty much screwed.
Pack rats is not a problem and most MBD board it out against me.
I can't see how Lightning Strike could be helpful in the situation, since it only kills Nightveil Specter. The only other reason I would use it is some reach but still, I think it is too hard to fit it in the SB.
How the MU usually goes is: both slam threats, take some hits, remove said threats, then gray merchant for him to stabilize, remove gary, he slams a couple of underworld connections, wins with card advantage, erebos, mutavaults.
Hello guys, I have been playing Rakdos Control since almost the beginning of Theros standard. I am posting the list I am currently running but I'd like to say that every minor or major changes I have made so far, all of them had always led me to a 3-1+ result at FNMs. Only once I got a 2-2 with this deck and it was a really bad day. Haven't gotten the time to go to major tournaments yet but this is going to be my go-to deck probably.
First of all I think this is one of the most powerful and underrated deck in the format. I would like to discuss some of my choices and I hope for some constructive criticism.
Stormbreath dragon and Sire of Insanity. The thing is, you can't run both of em. I kept playing Sire for a couple of weeks and it just ended up in a tense topdeck race. I was mostly winning but it was pretty rough and so draw depended that I wouldn't want to coin toss my important games. Stormbreath dragons on the other hand are more stable in that regard, less mana intensive and almost always guaranteed damage. The pro white also makes them good againt azorius control or esper control.
Rakdos keyrune is simply amazing. The deck is generally mana hungry and it will help you ramp as well as be a constant beater in the end.
Whip is up for discussion. As an one of it can be great for finisher and stabilizing. Not having the ability to run any other life gain is really bad for a control deck and whip allows for at least some life gain.
Running 4 Anger of the gods in a format with so many aggro decks is absolutely valid. Can also be good against early pack rats.
1 of Magma jet smooths your draws.
Generally, as I said I have been winning with this deck. All of my aggro match ups are really good. Some times rakdos haste poses some issues but the deck is not really popular. Esper control and azorius control are also decent matchups if you manage to resolve rakdos's return and a couple of thoughtseizes. The biggest issue and where I badly need suggestions is monoblack devotion. I have only won once against it. It always has enough removals for my threats and he manages to play more threats than me. I can't find proper SB cards for it. So please, if you could discuss some solutions it would be very helpful.
I was thinking maybe anger of the gods could be a good sideboard option. It is 2 red which is pretty hard to cast but it could work wonders against voice decks, wiping out their board without any drawbacks from voice.Maybe even an early tarmogoyf if we get lucky
I have to disagree.
Scion and Mistbind ARE the cards that make the deck "Fae" (back in the days and now) and not delver. Every delver deck has SSS/Muta/Vendilion now, so from your point of view delver is only a "good" fae deck while the ones that run Scion and Mistbind are the "bad" ones.
The Delver list that is putting result, on MTGO at least, is a merge of old delver lists with the young pyromancer and fae lists with a low curve, into a more tempo oriented and "better" deck.
My suggestion is to call the solid deck that is being played on MTGO something like UR Tempo or UR wizards, as i see it as the centre of a spectrum with several variations that goes from pyromancer built to midrangy built with mistbind and cryptic command.
- L
See, but that's exactly the problem. Let's see what kind of decks we have and how they can be categorized:
UR delver with lavamancer - it is a UR tempo deck, can even be considered UR wizards
UR wizards/fae - it has delver but the deck is not defined by delver. Hoogland named it wizards but he still considers it a fae deck
UR wizards/fae - with scion instead of delvers. has 1/2 of what is considered a "must" for a tribal fae deck and is obviously not a delver deck
UR fae - more midrange, with scion and mistbind and cryptic, possibly vendalken, easily defined as a Ux Fae variations.
and then you have all the others Ux Fae variations with black or green or white or mono blue, well everything basically. So now we need to draw the line somewhere. You said that UR tempo/wizards can go up to mistbind clique, but then it is also a Fae deck. From what I see the problem is the distinction between UR tempo with delver and UR tempo with Scion - both with a core of SSS/Mutavault/V. Clique.
So if we don't have the core then its obviously UR tempo/wizards. If you do have that core, at least in the current meta in modern, you are flirting more with Fae than with the classic UR delver, imho at least.
And since the deck is played with both scion (making it more fae) or delver (more wizards but still a sort of Fae core) it will be more reliable for searching purposes to categorize it as a Fae deck. Otherwise you would have to keep this thread as Ux Fae (not red) and another thread with UR tempo/wizards (but also UR fae).
Imho they should remain distinct. Scion is not the only card the puts the deck into the Fae category. Mistbind clique isn't really being used anyway in UR Fae decks (for the most part at least) but people still say they are playing Fae, making it a bad card to judge the category of a deck.
The core of a Fae deck is the combo SSS/Mutavault and v. Clique. Scion and Delver are 2 variations of the same kind of deck (the Fae deck) and they don't define it. Thus, decks with this kind of core should be labeled as Fae.
Since we are talking UB Fae I'd like to post my latest UB list. While I do agree that red gives us more ways to win and its a better way to sustain ourselves into the game I think black has its own potential with Fae, not so much as additional creatures but more like the splash color we need. Feedback on that list, before I go UR myself, would be much appreciated.
The 4 removals provide sustain against all sorts of giant threats, which red sometimes cant provide, and the 5 hand destruction cards allow for early threat removal when you can't or prefer not to counter. What black actually provides is more utility, at least the way I see it. It might not give you the extra winning condition but it gives you the utility to win with your fae kit.
I am afraid we can't go with any less than 4 Mutatvault, these bad boys make Spellstutter the great counter it is in the deck. Also if you chose to play Mistbind cliques they allow for a turn 5 mistbind on an empty board.
4 Cascade Bluffs are decent but not great because they might limit your possibilities if you get the wrong land comp, say 3 islands and 1 Cas. Bluffs. then you wont be able to cast vendilion and Lightining bolt on another phase of a turn, or you ll get to start with 2 Cascade Bluffs in your hand which is terrible (these are just random examples, I can think even more). I have encountered these problems with the Sunken Ruins on my UB Faeries and I have decided to limit them on 2.
Looks sweet generally. I find the lack of Vendalken shackles a good thing but I am not feeling 100% sure about the delvers. Ofcourse we have to w8 for the complete article but I was not satisfied with his justification of delver on the reddit thread.
So I played on an FNM with the UB list I posted above. Went 2-2:
Game one against a Zur the Enchantress deck, lost 1-2, all 3 games extremely close but with his sideboards and him being on the play on G3 and with all 4 Zurs in his hand couldnt remove everything. If the Zur hitted the board things went extremely bad. Also being able to negate my lands by playing Spread the Seas on them was devastating.
Game 2 was against a UB fae deck with Dark Confidants. I had a long discussion with him before and after the games for his choice to lpay Dark Confidants. Personally I don't like it at all in the Fae deck. Your life total is too important to risk it with a possible bad draw with the Confidant. As many have stated above, you should treat your life total as a resource. Playin fetchland->water grave->thoughtseize-> dark confidant is not really efficient. However we both had at least 1 mana screwed game which didnt make for a very good test. 2-1.
Game three against a USA deck and got 2 lands in game 1 and 3 lands in game 2. Don't have much to say about it, I could survive on low mana counters but that's it. WIthout getting ever to your 4rth land it is not possible to play. 0-2.
Game four against a Melira Pod which was an easy win. Both games were pretty much from my ability to go in with lands while keeping his hand destroyed and constant countering. I find Pod to be a good muchup for me if I play UB. You early hand destruction into countering 1-2 combo pieces and you are set to go. Especially Melira Pod is rather week against Fae.
I was not happy with my results but I figured I could have done better by avoiding mistakes here and there and having to deal with the mana screw on Game 3. I want to try the far//away now instead of the Go for the Throat and see how this goes.
I think we actually need a planeswalker. Card draw we can find in many different ways, cruel ultimatum, think twice, shadow of doubt you name it. We don't really lack draw unless it is something special that comes with black (thus we have it exclusively in control decks).
A planeswalker on the other hand will give us flexibility and (hopefully) a winning condition. So we are looking for a good rakdos colors planeswalker to seal the deal imho.
Against RDW/Red devotion: Highly favorable match up, around 70-30 because if they win the roll then they might pull something insane game 1 and 3. We should definitely win post SB though, and since I am running 4 anger of the gods mainboard even G1 should be no problem.
Against Wx: Well, their creatures don't pose much threat, all can be killed by anger of the gods, post sideboard by ratchet bomb and dragon is amazing.
Against Blue devotion: 60-40 I would say, post sideboard should be no prob, game one could be hard, if they get the roll it might be 55-45 but still we have a ton of ways to stabilize.
Against Rakdos haste: 60-40 actually it is a hard MU cause if you et stack in sorcery speed removals they might be faster than RDW.
Against Selesnya: The hard aggro MU imo, because selesnya charm destroys our demon, brave the elements saves his dude from anger and if we can't resolve anger then Voice is a huge problem. Probablt 55-45 though still.
I think 4 pharika's cure might be a bit excessive but I ll try 2 on friday and see how it goes.
2x Lifebane Zombie
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Shock
1x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
2x Underworld Connections
2x Wear//Tear
Truth be told, I am not completely satisfied with my SB. Things I am considering are:
2 Shocks vs 2 Pharika's Cure. The 2 life gain is vital against super aggressive decks but being able to kill on turn 1 is also important since it might actually save you 2 points of damage. I am playing guildgates and a couple of scry lands so I can't always secure a turn 1 red source so I wonder what is more worth here. Double black is not hard but could pose some troubles.
1 Rakdos Charm in the place of one of the Wear//Tear s.
I want to add a couple of duresses and another slaughter games but I really can't see what I should cut. Maybe Underworld connections? Although they are amazing against control and Dark Betrayals will definitely come in handy against MBD which is, in my opinion, our weakness.
Also how do you feel about Toil//Trboule. Can it be a possible answer to a huge Sphinx's revelation?
Pack rats is not a problem and most MBD board it out against me.
I can't see how Lightning Strike could be helpful in the situation, since it only kills Nightveil Specter. The only other reason I would use it is some reach but still, I think it is too hard to fit it in the SB.
How the MU usually goes is: both slam threats, take some hits, remove said threats, then gray merchant for him to stabilize, remove gary, he slams a couple of underworld connections, wins with card advantage, erebos, mutavaults.
4x Desecration Demon
3x Stormbreath Dragon
Planeswaklers (1)
2x Chandra, Pyromaster
Artifacts (4)
3x Rakdos Keyrune
1x Whip of Erebos
Sorceries (15)
4x Anger of the Gods
2x Dreadbore
2x Rakdos's Return
3x Read the Bones
3x Thoughtseize
3x Devour Flesh
1x Doom Blade
3x Hero's Downfall
1x Magma Jet
Lands (25)
4x Blood Crypt
7x Mountain
1x Mutavault
4x Rakdos Guildgate
7x Swamp
2x Temple of Triumph
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Lifebane Zombie
1x Rakdos's Return
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Shock
1x Slaughter Games
1x Thoughtseize
2x Underworld Connections
2x Wear//Tear
First of all I think this is one of the most powerful and underrated deck in the format. I would like to discuss some of my choices and I hope for some constructive criticism.
Stormbreath dragon and Sire of Insanity. The thing is, you can't run both of em. I kept playing Sire for a couple of weeks and it just ended up in a tense topdeck race. I was mostly winning but it was pretty rough and so draw depended that I wouldn't want to coin toss my important games. Stormbreath dragons on the other hand are more stable in that regard, less mana intensive and almost always guaranteed damage. The pro white also makes them good againt azorius control or esper control.
Rakdos keyrune is simply amazing. The deck is generally mana hungry and it will help you ramp as well as be a constant beater in the end.
Whip is up for discussion. As an one of it can be great for finisher and stabilizing. Not having the ability to run any other life gain is really bad for a control deck and whip allows for at least some life gain.
Running 4 Anger of the gods in a format with so many aggro decks is absolutely valid. Can also be good against early pack rats.
1 of Magma jet smooths your draws.
Generally, as I said I have been winning with this deck. All of my aggro match ups are really good. Some times rakdos haste poses some issues but the deck is not really popular. Esper control and azorius control are also decent matchups if you manage to resolve rakdos's return and a couple of thoughtseizes. The biggest issue and where I badly need suggestions is monoblack devotion. I have only won once against it. It always has enough removals for my threats and he manages to play more threats than me. I can't find proper SB cards for it. So please, if you could discuss some solutions it would be very helpful.
See, but that's exactly the problem. Let's see what kind of decks we have and how they can be categorized:
UR delver with lavamancer - it is a UR tempo deck, can even be considered UR wizards
UR wizards/fae - it has delver but the deck is not defined by delver. Hoogland named it wizards but he still considers it a fae deck
UR wizards/fae - with scion instead of delvers. has 1/2 of what is considered a "must" for a tribal fae deck and is obviously not a delver deck
UR fae - more midrange, with scion and mistbind and cryptic, possibly vendalken, easily defined as a Ux Fae variations.
and then you have all the others Ux Fae variations with black or green or white or mono blue, well everything basically. So now we need to draw the line somewhere. You said that UR tempo/wizards can go up to mistbind clique, but then it is also a Fae deck. From what I see the problem is the distinction between UR tempo with delver and UR tempo with Scion - both with a core of SSS/Mutavault/V. Clique.
So if we don't have the core then its obviously UR tempo/wizards. If you do have that core, at least in the current meta in modern, you are flirting more with Fae than with the classic UR delver, imho at least.
And since the deck is played with both scion (making it more fae) or delver (more wizards but still a sort of Fae core) it will be more reliable for searching purposes to categorize it as a Fae deck. Otherwise you would have to keep this thread as Ux Fae (not red) and another thread with UR tempo/wizards (but also UR fae).
The core of a Fae deck is the combo SSS/Mutavault and v. Clique. Scion and Delver are 2 variations of the same kind of deck (the Fae deck) and they don't define it. Thus, decks with this kind of core should be labeled as Fae.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Scion of Oona
4 Mistbind Clique
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
2 Spell Snare
4 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
2 Dismember
2 Go for the Throat
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Secluded Glen
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Sunken Ruins
1 Faerie Conclave
4 Mutavault
2 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Clone
1 Damnation
2 Dispel
2 Engineered Explosinves
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Spellskite
1 Thoughtseize
The 4 removals provide sustain against all sorts of giant threats, which red sometimes cant provide, and the 5 hand destruction cards allow for early threat removal when you can't or prefer not to counter. What black actually provides is more utility, at least the way I see it. It might not give you the extra winning condition but it gives you the utility to win with your fae kit.
I am afraid we can't go with any less than 4 Mutatvault, these bad boys make Spellstutter the great counter it is in the deck. Also if you chose to play Mistbind cliques they allow for a turn 5 mistbind on an empty board.
4 Cascade Bluffs are decent but not great because they might limit your possibilities if you get the wrong land comp, say 3 islands and 1 Cas. Bluffs. then you wont be able to cast vendilion and Lightining bolt on another phase of a turn, or you ll get to start with 2 Cascade Bluffs in your hand which is terrible (these are just random examples, I can think even more). I have encountered these problems with the Sunken Ruins on my UB Faeries and I have decided to limit them on 2.
Game one against a Zur the Enchantress deck, lost 1-2, all 3 games extremely close but with his sideboards and him being on the play on G3 and with all 4 Zurs in his hand couldnt remove everything. If the Zur hitted the board things went extremely bad. Also being able to negate my lands by playing Spread the Seas on them was devastating.
Game 2 was against a UB fae deck with Dark Confidants. I had a long discussion with him before and after the games for his choice to lpay Dark Confidants. Personally I don't like it at all in the Fae deck. Your life total is too important to risk it with a possible bad draw with the Confidant. As many have stated above, you should treat your life total as a resource. Playin fetchland->water grave->thoughtseize-> dark confidant is not really efficient. However we both had at least 1 mana screwed game which didnt make for a very good test. 2-1.
Game three against a USA deck and got 2 lands in game 1 and 3 lands in game 2. Don't have much to say about it, I could survive on low mana counters but that's it. WIthout getting ever to your 4rth land it is not possible to play. 0-2.
Game four against a Melira Pod which was an easy win. Both games were pretty much from my ability to go in with lands while keeping his hand destroyed and constant countering. I find Pod to be a good muchup for me if I play UB. You early hand destruction into countering 1-2 combo pieces and you are set to go. Especially Melira Pod is rather week against Fae.
I was not happy with my results but I figured I could have done better by avoiding mistakes here and there and having to deal with the mana screw on Game 3. I want to try the far//away now instead of the Go for the Throat and see how this goes.