I think both of you have solid thoughts as they are cheap and relatively low in power. Both sets would help evolve a mana base early on and they could even change up the bad river cycle to maybe some interesting other concepts.
I am still pretty excited about these products. My expectations are a trash mana base, a few cool new cards, with some solid reprints for multicolor. I expect wizards to do what it keeps doing, set up a solid value in the product based on current markets and what they think is playable.
To Fiveod and Bauer
As for the guys arguing the price, do i wish the game was a tad cheaper? Of course. Am I entitled to it? Absolutely not. The stamp collecting is a good point. Why am I paying hundreds thousands even tens of thousands for the postage to send a letter? Why do people pay exorbitant amounts for anything? Paintings, sculpture, anything? It's all a market based economy. Wizards sells BULK products, very rarely do they push into the market of individualized products because THEY DONT CARE. They want a bottom line and if that's reached then woohoo. I'm not making minimum wage but I don't make the kind of money that would make buying most players of 50 plus dollar cards possible. With that said, I own oceans of older cards from when I was a very young kid that are worth a fortune now that allow me to trade for the staples I want in modern standard and commander. If you feel that way about the market, just printed cardboard, then why do you play this game? In all its a COLLECTIBLE card game, being that collecting them plays a part outside of the game itself. If those cards raise in value, than like any other strange hobby ( coins worth more than face value, stamps, paintings, prints, comic books, the list goes on) it's a nice windfall or money maker. Deal with it.
He mentioned similar to phasing, with phasing the cards just don't exist until it's checked again before the into step. Phasing was a terrible mechanic but sheds light to an earlier idea in this thread that is a simple and elegant solution to the problem.
Regardless of how anyone feels on there specific ideas, we as a community should work on making a viable mechanic rather than what we as individuals want. It's clear that no one will change their stance among a few of us, but that inflexibility is why issues arise within the community. When wizards developes a new mechanic there is a great deal of give and take amongst all the design team. Very rarely does one person's idea stay untouched from start to finish.
Now back to the original topic, why not utilize a combination of enablers as well as static ability triggers on cards? For example:
Seek What is Lost 2U
Sorcery
You and your opponents may choose a forbidden spell you own from outside the game. Each player then shuffles the chosen card into their library.
Forgotten Ruby 0
Artifact-Forbidden
If an opponent casts 2 or more blue spells during your turn, you may shuffle this card into your deck from outside the game.
Tap: add R to your mana pool.
I honestly think we can make a serious case to push this and other mechanics we talk and throw around the community into considerations within wizards if we flesh them out enough. Whether they get changed or not at that level is outside the scope but to dev up ways to make this and other mechanics theorized on this site work in a playable way is something a great majority would probably love to see!
Actually I think legend has an incredible idea. Phasing utilized essentially unknown space. Instead of a zone why not just a place? As in a player may have some undecided number of cards outside of the game that these enablers get, and for tournament purposes the sideboard would be that place. It's simplistic enough to make it functional and complex enough to make tournament players pause at utilizing them.
Obvious problems arise with many of these zones, in that "outside the game", is referred to as sideboard except in casual play. The command zone for example is strictly for a players commander in EDH, a Planeswalker emblem ( the flavor perspective being they have decreed their strongest command to you as a fellow mage to help win your battle ), and in very narrow cases the conspiracies, planar deck and arch enemy decks. Again in any way only one of these uses applies to competitive magic, a Planeswalker ultimate ability.
Exile is unique design space and changed how a lot of wish cards and the like worked. Previous wishes read to retrieve a card from outside the game and you could get back cards previously removed from the game with such. Exile allowed things to, in most cases outside if narrow exceptions, to be removed indefinitely and remain untouched by card effects such as wishes.
A new zone IS and always WILL be viable. I'm not saying the "void" is not usable, merely confusing as to the constraints of the card design. If I start with cards in void what happens during my deck construction and how do they fit into my allowable deck size?
What are the upsides to utilizing current design space compared to creating new space? Does it hold viable to our player base as well as our tournament and support structure? Let's as a community weigh the pros and cons. I personally wouldn't want an extra deck as I think it would hurt the game but I am only a single player and if a consensus arises where this sounds like a solid option of course it would be ran with. I'd rather still try to flesh this idea and concept out utilizing current design space or previously thought of design space to avoid the "what if" of newer and currently non existant pieces.
A larger part of this also involves people's views on the comprehensive rules. Any serious change effects the rest of the rules in small but impactful ways. Cards need to be carefully looked at when rules changes occur and it takes time. Wizards will not and never will flippantly change the rules held now to fit a community driven or even R and D driven design without serious information as to the mechanics viability and impact in current game structure.
With all the above said I have a feeling a big part of forbidden as a mechanic ended up being what forged expeditions and now the "masterpiece" series.
I find serious issues when implementing it as a separate "deck". We already have serious confusion to new players and the intricacies involved in learning the game.
Along with this, the new zone with only these unique new cards creates tournament issues and current formatting issues.
We also take into account that magic on its own has a unique "feel". Introducing the extra deck model is already done in other TCG systems and isn't very effective for limiting power creep and such.
While I am not against a new zone, implementing it shouldn't be as an extra deck of any kind and should be a part of sideboard construction to limit the changes to tournament structure
So, please correct me if I'm wrong, fractured would work something like having g the card remand, and then having a card with the same name but a new function.
Remand
Instant
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand, that permanenant may not be put it play and spells sharing a name with the returned card may not be cast until your next turn.
So let's theorize here. It would provide us with new options for viable cards already, and to have them in the same view with forbidden maybe have it set up in the type line. So :
Remand
Instant- Fracture
Combining this with forbidden seems like a good idea as it would allow you to work the game in two ways, both limiting the number of cards as only 4 with the same name is a thing, and applying the flavor of fracturing the fabric of reality to reach for these long banned and highly taboo spells and artifacts.
I'm not sure how it would word precisely, again I'm no genius with rules text for a card, but here is another thought on that take:
Manipulated Future 2U
Forbidden Sorcery
(This card must start the game in the exile zone and is not included in the library.)
Each player shuffles their hand and graveyard into their library and draws seven cards.
Accumulated Knowledge 1U
Instant-Fractured
Your opponent draws a card, then you both draw cards equal to the number of Accumulated Knowledge cards in your graveyard.
If your opponent drew more than 4 cards this turn you may shuffle Manipulated Future into your library from exile.
Probably not the best wording but you get the idea. It was just what I took away from possibly joining the 2 mechanics, and I'd love to see someone more versed take a crack at it!
Here is my two cents on the topic whether warranted or not.
From a flavor perspective, forbidden cards should be just that. They were massively powerful or battle changing events in the mtg universe and as such were forbidden to be used, thus being cast into exile. The exile zone makes perfect sense for them, but they should be unable to be touched in any way. Here is an example I have thought up after reading these posts:
Forgotten Flower (0)
Forbidden Artifact
(This card starts the game in exile. It may only leave exile due to this cards ability)
If you control one of each basic land type during your end step, shuffle this into your deck.
Exile Forgotten Flower: add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool.
It's not very elegant, but you get the idea. Regardless of how the speed or permanent or anything would happen, once played the spell would again return to exile. The triggers for each card would obviously be different, and the cards themselves could use the lower left corner of the card with a number designating how many you are allowed to even have in exile.
To me this is the only elegant solution to the problem. I agree with the command zone ideas, even new zones, they just don't fit the feel or flavor or current interactions of current design.
With all that said, I would love to see the design of forbidden to be implemented as I think it's a huge creative loophole. They could do things like they did with suspend bringing back powerful spells at much lower power levels than their first iterations. I'm excited for this and for how we as a community think a solid way to flesh it out would develop
I imagine it will be the oath planeswalkers. What else could they possibly do for it to be fair? You have the 4 main cards of the oathgroup and maybethats how they will reveal the new lili. I'm grasping at straws just my bit on it.
I think that one of the issues with removing these angels within the coming set was to show the destruction of even the most pure minds.
Keep in mind that in magic, Angels do not naturally exist anywhere in the multiverse. they are strictly constructed biological or mechanical entities to serve a purpose, though always embodying some form of their creators will. From the introduction of Serra's angel within the story up until now not a single instance of an angel was one born or incarnated originally as an angel. This includes Akroma ( who later became phage, then again transforms into Korona) amongst many legendary angels. I agree, it is a bit depressing seeing an entire being warped and distorted in probably one of the most loved archetypes in magic, but it fits the story line from avacyn being driven insane, sigarda becoming almost bloodthirsty, and now the utter corruption of the remaining quasi divine beings of the plane.
With that said, I look forward to the future design space opening up in this set with eldrazi flip cards and what have you. I also look forward to the creation of new and exciting angels to potentially replace what was lost on Innistrad in the years to come. If we keep revisiting beloved planes, we will get more insight into that planes mechanics but also more depth of story. People complain about continuing storylines over 2 blocks but lets be fair, Dominaria was damn near the entire first 10 years of magic as one continuous (though differing) storylines lol
My take on the new Eldrazi flip mechanic will be losing a portion of your game state as the loss of ones will to Emrakul. I assume they will be something like this:
Exile 4 cards from your hand: Flip Card
or
Exile x number of permanents: Put x madness counters on card. When x or more are on this card, transform it.
I assume exile over sacrifice as they don't want the mechanic too easily manipulated with delirium and graveyard matters effects, while keeping the blue card which was spoiled, coax from the blind eternities, relevant. Another take on that could be:
Exile 2 Eldrazi cards from your hand, Flip card.
or
Exile 2 non-token Eldrazi permanents you control: flip card.
My biggest issue with this angel is that we already have the spoiled big baddy. We have the hype train legendary werewolf that again I wanted as badly as everyone else. I just will be very disappointed if wizards does decide to run with financial goals over player goals. Would it be better marketing wise? Most definitely. It would allow a 4 color Eldrazi commander. Think about that for a second, the sales would be insanity. Yet the inner pack ripper in me so desperately wants this to be a card I can open and bomb with at the Pre-Release or get some crazy Russian foil copy of it for my cube.
I thought the name was both artistic and yet quite blunt about what this horror, probably from some anime I can't watch without feeling dirty or hiding from polite society, came from hahahahah
To Fiveod and Bauer
As for the guys arguing the price, do i wish the game was a tad cheaper? Of course. Am I entitled to it? Absolutely not. The stamp collecting is a good point. Why am I paying hundreds thousands even tens of thousands for the postage to send a letter? Why do people pay exorbitant amounts for anything? Paintings, sculpture, anything? It's all a market based economy. Wizards sells BULK products, very rarely do they push into the market of individualized products because THEY DONT CARE. They want a bottom line and if that's reached then woohoo. I'm not making minimum wage but I don't make the kind of money that would make buying most players of 50 plus dollar cards possible. With that said, I own oceans of older cards from when I was a very young kid that are worth a fortune now that allow me to trade for the staples I want in modern standard and commander. If you feel that way about the market, just printed cardboard, then why do you play this game? In all its a COLLECTIBLE card game, being that collecting them plays a part outside of the game itself. If those cards raise in value, than like any other strange hobby ( coins worth more than face value, stamps, paintings, prints, comic books, the list goes on) it's a nice windfall or money maker. Deal with it.
Regardless of how anyone feels on there specific ideas, we as a community should work on making a viable mechanic rather than what we as individuals want. It's clear that no one will change their stance among a few of us, but that inflexibility is why issues arise within the community. When wizards developes a new mechanic there is a great deal of give and take amongst all the design team. Very rarely does one person's idea stay untouched from start to finish.
Now back to the original topic, why not utilize a combination of enablers as well as static ability triggers on cards? For example:
Seek What is Lost 2U
Sorcery
You and your opponents may choose a forbidden spell you own from outside the game. Each player then shuffles the chosen card into their library.
Forgotten Ruby 0
Artifact-Forbidden
If an opponent casts 2 or more blue spells during your turn, you may shuffle this card into your deck from outside the game.
Tap: add R to your mana pool.
I honestly think we can make a serious case to push this and other mechanics we talk and throw around the community into considerations within wizards if we flesh them out enough. Whether they get changed or not at that level is outside the scope but to dev up ways to make this and other mechanics theorized on this site work in a playable way is something a great majority would probably love to see!
Legend, I applaud you lol
Exile is unique design space and changed how a lot of wish cards and the like worked. Previous wishes read to retrieve a card from outside the game and you could get back cards previously removed from the game with such. Exile allowed things to, in most cases outside if narrow exceptions, to be removed indefinitely and remain untouched by card effects such as wishes.
A new zone IS and always WILL be viable. I'm not saying the "void" is not usable, merely confusing as to the constraints of the card design. If I start with cards in void what happens during my deck construction and how do they fit into my allowable deck size?
What are the upsides to utilizing current design space compared to creating new space? Does it hold viable to our player base as well as our tournament and support structure? Let's as a community weigh the pros and cons. I personally wouldn't want an extra deck as I think it would hurt the game but I am only a single player and if a consensus arises where this sounds like a solid option of course it would be ran with. I'd rather still try to flesh this idea and concept out utilizing current design space or previously thought of design space to avoid the "what if" of newer and currently non existant pieces.
A larger part of this also involves people's views on the comprehensive rules. Any serious change effects the rest of the rules in small but impactful ways. Cards need to be carefully looked at when rules changes occur and it takes time. Wizards will not and never will flippantly change the rules held now to fit a community driven or even R and D driven design without serious information as to the mechanics viability and impact in current game structure.
With all the above said I have a feeling a big part of forbidden as a mechanic ended up being what forged expeditions and now the "masterpiece" series.
Along with this, the new zone with only these unique new cards creates tournament issues and current formatting issues.
We also take into account that magic on its own has a unique "feel". Introducing the extra deck model is already done in other TCG systems and isn't very effective for limiting power creep and such.
While I am not against a new zone, implementing it shouldn't be as an extra deck of any kind and should be a part of sideboard construction to limit the changes to tournament structure
Remand
Instant
Return target nonland permanent to its owner's hand, that permanenant may not be put it play and spells sharing a name with the returned card may not be cast until your next turn.
So let's theorize here. It would provide us with new options for viable cards already, and to have them in the same view with forbidden maybe have it set up in the type line. So :
Remand
Instant- Fracture
Combining this with forbidden seems like a good idea as it would allow you to work the game in two ways, both limiting the number of cards as only 4 with the same name is a thing, and applying the flavor of fracturing the fabric of reality to reach for these long banned and highly taboo spells and artifacts.
I'm not sure how it would word precisely, again I'm no genius with rules text for a card, but here is another thought on that take:
Manipulated Future 2U
Forbidden Sorcery
(This card must start the game in the exile zone and is not included in the library.)
Each player shuffles their hand and graveyard into their library and draws seven cards.
Accumulated Knowledge 1U
Instant-Fractured
Your opponent draws a card, then you both draw cards equal to the number of Accumulated Knowledge cards in your graveyard.
If your opponent drew more than 4 cards this turn you may shuffle Manipulated Future into your library from exile.
Probably not the best wording but you get the idea. It was just what I took away from possibly joining the 2 mechanics, and I'd love to see someone more versed take a crack at it!
From a flavor perspective, forbidden cards should be just that. They were massively powerful or battle changing events in the mtg universe and as such were forbidden to be used, thus being cast into exile. The exile zone makes perfect sense for them, but they should be unable to be touched in any way. Here is an example I have thought up after reading these posts:
Forgotten Flower (0)
Forbidden Artifact
(This card starts the game in exile. It may only leave exile due to this cards ability)
If you control one of each basic land type during your end step, shuffle this into your deck.
Exile Forgotten Flower: add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool.
It's not very elegant, but you get the idea. Regardless of how the speed or permanent or anything would happen, once played the spell would again return to exile. The triggers for each card would obviously be different, and the cards themselves could use the lower left corner of the card with a number designating how many you are allowed to even have in exile.
To me this is the only elegant solution to the problem. I agree with the command zone ideas, even new zones, they just don't fit the feel or flavor or current interactions of current design.
With all that said, I would love to see the design of forbidden to be implemented as I think it's a huge creative loophole. They could do things like they did with suspend bringing back powerful spells at much lower power levels than their first iterations. I'm excited for this and for how we as a community think a solid way to flesh it out would develop
Keep in mind that in magic, Angels do not naturally exist anywhere in the multiverse. they are strictly constructed biological or mechanical entities to serve a purpose, though always embodying some form of their creators will. From the introduction of Serra's angel within the story up until now not a single instance of an angel was one born or incarnated originally as an angel. This includes Akroma ( who later became phage, then again transforms into Korona) amongst many legendary angels. I agree, it is a bit depressing seeing an entire being warped and distorted in probably one of the most loved archetypes in magic, but it fits the story line from avacyn being driven insane, sigarda becoming almost bloodthirsty, and now the utter corruption of the remaining quasi divine beings of the plane.
With that said, I look forward to the future design space opening up in this set with eldrazi flip cards and what have you. I also look forward to the creation of new and exciting angels to potentially replace what was lost on Innistrad in the years to come. If we keep revisiting beloved planes, we will get more insight into that planes mechanics but also more depth of story. People complain about continuing storylines over 2 blocks but lets be fair, Dominaria was damn near the entire first 10 years of magic as one continuous (though differing) storylines lol
Exile 4 cards from your hand: Flip Card
or
Exile x number of permanents: Put x madness counters on card. When x or more are on this card, transform it.
I assume exile over sacrifice as they don't want the mechanic too easily manipulated with delirium and graveyard matters effects, while keeping the blue card which was spoiled, coax from the blind eternities, relevant. Another take on that could be:
Exile 2 Eldrazi cards from your hand, Flip card.
or
Exile 2 non-token Eldrazi permanents you control: flip card.
What can I say, I'm a spoiled foil kid.