Magic Market Index for Dec 28th, 2018
 
Magic Market Index for Dec 21st, 2018
 
Ultimate Masters: MMI Review
  • posted a message on Super niche cards only designed for one cute interaction
    You might as well give it Changeling!
    Posted in: Custom Card Creation
  • posted a message on Defining the synergies between card abilities.
    When Goblin Tunneler’s ability resolves, its target’s power must be 2 or less to become unblockable. If the Tunneler’s target’s power is greater than 2 when Tunneler’s ability resolves, it will have no affect.
    How I interprete it anyway.

    So if at all possible, let Goblin Tunneler’s ability resolve before boosting Chandra’s Spitfire’s power.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Magic is surprisingly cheap hobby
    @purklefluff, I understand supply and demand and that the cost of producing goods goes beyond the cost of materials. There's labor, R&D, marketing, distribution, rent, etc. And if you think that the metal in your car is only about $200 value, you haven't done any fabrication work or been to a steel yard. You haven't even scratched the surface, there's the electronic components and the engine. If you think "engineering" is a nebulous concept, then you're woefully unaware of the manufacturing procedure for many things. A car engine is an amazing piece of engineering, and even some of the seemingly simplest things require an extraordinary amount of thought to create.
    I also understand that with many higher end versions of a product that you're often paying for that brand name. That still does not detract from the fact that those items require a certain amount of labor to manufacture, and often with luxury goods there really is more to them than the cheaper versions. The work and thought that goes into a high end sports car is vastly superior than that of an economy car. The concept of paying for something I cannot create myself is not lost on me. When it comes to Magic cards there's design and development teams, art and flavor, marketing, distribution, etc. But to say that the artificial scarcity of some of the cards is somehow a conspiracy is disingenuous on your part. WOTC literally decides how large print runs are and how many of each card gets printed. With print items the up front is you largest cost, as you produce more units the cost per unit decreases. This is where profit margins come into play. At a print shop producing more units is fairly simple, add more stock to the machine and hit the button. My stepdad was a die cutter foreman at a print shop in Sacramento for over 30 years at a place much like Cartamundi, so I have some insight into the procedure. With complex physical goods that require hands on tuning it's not so simple. I own a glass studio, my cost per unit is uniform no matter how many units we produce. If an item is just mass produced by machine, usually the cost per unit goes down on the production side, but once you add the need for hand craftsmanship that changes the equation. Even though my cost per unit to make stays the same, with higher volume purchases I can afford to sell for less. Many goods are sold under this model. That $500 bike you mentioned, it sells for that price based upon a series of calculations that involve initial cost and necessary profit margin for both the producer and seller coupled with what the target audience would be willing to pay. The price isn't as arbitrary as an ebay sale. So yes the value of that bike is $500 because that's what it needs to sell for for it to be worth while to get made in the first place. At my business I won't touch projects where the R&D and production costs won't net a certain profit percentage. There's always a little wiggle room for variance but businesses like to reserve that for sales and bulk buyers.
    The only reason Magic cards have such a high secondary market value is because people have bought into WOTC's tournament structure. They could have just made Magic a living cards game, when a set comes out a box is just 4x of every card. WOTC's model is genius, it creates this crack-head mentality of keeping up with the Joneses or I cannot compete. They create invaluable chase mythic rares in low enough quantity that it drives up box sales. Players "need" those mythics to even have a chance at FNM. So ya, "conspiracy". WOTC's biggest problem is how to create the most profit without pissing off their fan base. That's been the biggest complaint since forever. Every decision WOTC has to back track on has been one of trying to milk the cash cow without milking it dry. When it comes to the secondary market prices are set based upon what the dumbest consumers will pay.
    I collect guns and let me tell you, there's a stark difference in reliability and performance between a $300 and a $600 piece. Cheap tennis rackets and golf clubs also don't play as well as higher end ones do. When I shop I never buy the most expensive item, because you are just buying a name at that point, but I do buy in the upper range(when quality is directly correlated to cost). With Magic cards however, each card costs the same to produce, quality is not inherently built in. I know, I know, not all cards are playable, certain cards are more desirable than others for constructed, etc. But that's not intrinsic to the manufacturing process beyond design and development. Where as even a high end competitive bicycle, quality control is necessary from start to finish.(I also understand the vagaries than can happen during printing, but these thing don't truly affect a card's performance)

    To summarize my point; high end luxury cardboard feels like a bigger waste of money to some of us because cards can be mass produced a the flick of a switch, and even if a card is flawed during manufacture, it still functions as a game piece. Compared to all the other mentioned items that require engineering to perform at peak levels. If a tennis racket breaks, you're out of the game. Your bicycle or car breaks you crash and could accrue medical bills. You don't want a budget rope to go mountain climbing do you? I'll wager that people who scuba dive or parachute want the best money can buy.

    No offence purklefluff, but your response to me leads me to believe you've never been on the supply side of life. But as someone who has, you learn what goes into the manufacture of things, and you acquire an appreciation for the processes. Your comment about engineering being a vague factor shows a lack of knowledge for what is truly involved with design.
    Another thing, many of the high end products that have been discussed have low profit margins, take guns for instance, there's about a 10% to 15% mark up from wholesale. When WOTC releases a product with an MSRP they've already calculated what percentage they need for it to be profitable for both them and the retailer, yet often times those products sell for far above the MSRP. If a gun shop tried to jack up prices the same way nobody but the rich could afford them.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Magic is surprisingly cheap hobby
    I think what makes Magic “feel” expensive compared to other hobbies is that the money you spend on Magic is just going to cardboard. All the other activities mentioned in this thread have gear and components that are tangible objects. A $500 bicycle has parts and engineering that match the cost. If you’re an outdoors person that gear gets real world use and abuse. Boats, cars, motorcycles, guns and other such items feel acceptable for the costs. For Magic, you’re buying a printed item that is produced in such mass quantities that any scarcity seems contrived. The price of Magic cards is a manufactured illiusion compared to the prices of the other items I mentioned. Another aspect of those other things I listed have physical tolerances with real world implications.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Could Fastbond be Unrestricted?
    I forgot Gush is a thing.
    Posted in: Vintage (Type 1)
  • posted a message on Could Fastbond be Unrestricted?
    Is there any real reason that Fastbond is still restricted? Are there any back breaking strategies with it that warrant it still being on the list?
    And yes, I am aware of what it does with Crucible of Worlds and Zuran Orb, but is that it? In the current state of Vintage, is this truly worrisome? I'd like to here what Vintage players think(if any actually read these forums).
    Posted in: Vintage (Type 1)
  • posted a message on How do I start a collection/get into different formats?
    What formats are being played in your area? That’s a huge consideration when collecting. There are different strategies for collecting cards in the different formmats. You also don’t want to build decks in formats that no one’s playing.
    Next is your budget. Knowing this and what formats you’d like to get into will help others guide better.(Not a critique of the above advice, which is good).
    Commander can be easier than it looks to aquire cards for. Buy getting preconstructed decks. Things like Deckbuilders Toolkits, a random box of Conspiracy or Battlebond, Explorers of Ixalan, Planechase, and Archenemy can net you plenty of bulk playable rares and other stuff.
    Buying singles is truly the only way to get exactly what you want/need. You get less cardboard for your money this way, but you get what you need.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on +1/+1 Counters, Tokens... Again...
    Many of the newer mechanics are just reworkings of older mechanics. Yes, often times it does feel like beating a dead horse. After 25 years they've pretty much mined the game of all the playable mechanics available. Magic is a complex game in its totality, more complex than any board game I've ever encountered, and MTG designers have come up against a wall. New mechanics usually are a new take on an older mechanic or they're an oddball mechanic from a singular card expanded into a set mechanic. Anything truly novel is rare these days. After 25 years coming up with novel ideas that don't derail the game is quite a task. Also, new mechanics not only have to try and be "new", they have to be fun to play.

    It's not quite fair to compare an entire genre of games(board games) to one card game. Magic has done quite a job of exploring within design constraints, balancing novelty with familiarity, after all if the game changes too much would it still be Magic. They also have to keep power creep to a minimum as well.
    If you only play Standard, Magic can be tired, but a foray through the various formats and time periods can give you a wider view of the game's complexity and beauty.

    There'e only so much design space in any game, and at some point every game will become repetitive. Given MTG's length of time and volume of sets, they've done an alright job. Full disclosure, I don't play Standard or even buy new product anymore, but still enjoy the game immensely.
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Ordinary Pony infinite combo questions
    jamis, replace Ordinary Pony with Felidar Guardian. That should net you the affect you’re looking for.

    Spam warning issued for posting only to give strategy advice. -MadMage
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Song on New Holiday Promo
    So the new holiday promo, Bog Humbuds has a tune as the flavor text. I don’t read music very well, so I’m curious if any musicians out there know what it is. I have a suspicion that it’s “Jingle Bells”, but not sure.

    Edit: nevermind, confirmed it is “Jingle Bells”
    Posted in: Magic General
  • posted a message on Mishra's Toy Workshop
    Are marbles considered toys? LOL

    There's always Legos.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Your definition of Casual-
    Quote from RabidVacin »
    I think one's perception of casual can be very different depending on whether they play casual. I think a good number of non-casual players think of casual as an excuse to make a deck with 4 Sol Ring, 4 Demonic Tutor, etc. But from what I've seen, the vast majority of the decks posted on this forum are vintage or legacy legal.


    That's one of the issues I'm trying to address. Those that do not play casually see "casual" in that light, then shrink away from joining casual groups.
    The vast majority of seasoned casual players have respect for the rules and don't want to be seen as scrubs that are clueless. Showing up with four Sol Rings and four Demonic Tutors in your deck shows a lack of understanding power and balance. Many casual groups even ban Vintage restricted cards altogether for that very reason.

    I've come across this attitude in the non-casual community that somehow casual players don't take the game seriously or something. That attitude borders on condescending at times. I know a lot of casuals that are as heavily vested in the game as any grinder. I always say that I don't play Standard because I can't afford it. The truth is that I choose not to afford it. I spend more a month on Magic than many a Standard player, I just have peculiar and expensive tastes, LOL.

    Anyway, thanks for the input folks. Hope the responses keep coming.
    Posted in: Casual & Multiplayer Formats
  • posted a message on Godsend vs multiplayer EDH
    @peteroupc, if a non-commander creature is exiled by Godsend and another player happens to be using that creature as their commander, that player will not be able to then cast their commander, correct?

    Say player A has Omnath in their deck and they play it. I send in a creature equipped with Godsend, player A uses Omnath to block and it gets exiled.
    Now player C has Omnath as their commander, they're just TSOL as they will not be able to cast their commander until Godsend is destroyed.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Godsend vs multiplayer EDH
    Godsend's third line states "Opponents", plural. So no your other opponents will not be able to cast cards that have the same name as cards exiled by Godsend.
    Posted in: Magic Rulings
  • posted a message on Your definition of Casual-
    I'm curious to see how the community views Casual Magic. At most of the LGSs I frequent the concept of multiplayer, non-formated FFA is nonexistent. And whenever I do mention multiplayer games everyone assumes you want to play Commander. Also, the players I play casual FFA with never venture into card shops to play. So there's this weird divide that's happened over the past decade or so. Along with this divide, the concept of Casual has changed. For the longest time casual games were played using the Type 1/Vintage restricted list as a guideline just to avoid anything too busted. With that people tended to not run P9 cards. Nowadays however, Casual has branch off and become many things to many people.

    In the casual groups I play, we have a rule to either follow the Vintage restricted list or your deck must be legal in any one format. Except when we allow silver boardered cards. We also will include Planechace, Archenemy, Vanguard, Challenge Decks, and whole bevy of other weirdness, occasionally.
    But I've encountered other people seeing things differently.

    IMHO I see several different views on Casual, here's the one's I've encountered:
    1. People playing janky decks. Two subgroups here, first, janky on purpose. People sick of net decks, just rolling casually for more relaxed game play.
    The second group are people with limited collections just playing within their limited card pools.

    2. Anything that's not a typical format. So things like Two-Headed Giant, Multiplayer, Planechase, Archenemy, Emperor, Un-cards, and homemade formats like Stack and Cube.

    3. Playing formated decks in a non-tournament setting. These folks tend to only want to play matched format decks in their games.

    4. Commander. For another subset, Commander is the only casual option.

    5. Some casual players don't like multiplayer, go figure.

    I'm curious to see what different people do and feel about the idea of "Casual". Also where do you draw the line with power level? In some of my groups the power levels can get pretty disgusting, in others I have to tone it down. I mean no one wants to see Magical Hacker paired with Planeswalkers, and your less serious friends will hate you for Eldrazi decks.
    Are your friends cool with infinite combos, prison locks, or glass cannons? And if so, for how long?(In one group, you get one win with that crap then change decks, LOL) I've been made to dismantle my Shahrazad/Time Machine deck, probably, rightfully so.

    Bring on your thoughts and experiences.

    Couple of parting notes.
    One thing I see stated on many forums and discussions about casual is the notion of "just proxy up and play whatever, no constructed rules, because it's casual you know." The vast majority of people I've met that only play casual, are fiercely proud of their collections and view proxies as cheating(except for deck testing). They see it as play with what you have or acquire what you need. Following some kind of constructed rules is also important, rules are what define a game after all.

    Secondly Un set rules. Even people playing UnMagic want some direction on how these cards interact. I always hate it in rules forums when questions about Un cards are answered with "they're Un cards, play it however you think is correct." WOTC printed the damn cards, they should at least have something to say about rulings. If I'm going to be playing Calvin-ball, I don't need to spend money on your product to do so.
    Posted in: Casual & Multiplayer Formats
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