It also runs 4 tec edges as opposed to 2. The spell snares and mana leaks could basically be meta calls. If you take those out it is basically Ajani + Sphinx's versus Resto + Clique. The way I see it, the flash deck still doesn't win very quickly. Due to it not winning very quickly, I would much rather have Ajani/Sphinx's in those later scenarios than flyers that can be blocked and only hit for 3 a turn. Obviously the ETB effects are strong, but if you get to mid/late game, the control still overtakes you.
While Geist could be seen as weak in the current meta (which I don't necessarily agree with), he still presents a fast clock to the opponent. Control keeps them from playing the game. The flash version just seems like an awkwardly placed middle man to me. If there were flash creatures that either presented a faster clock or were more resilient, I would be a fan of running those, but in the current meta, Clique is very weak to removal and a 1/1 flyer blocks it (think BB, Lingering Souls, etc.). Resto Angel costs 4 mana for 3 damage, or at best can give you an extra snap on turn 6. I'm just not buying the midrange/control hybrid that is flash atm, but I will start testing it more and see.
The only way I see the flash variety becoming truly successful is if it becomes a good idea to run Aven Mindcensor mainboard. This card is already a great sideboard card, is a 2 power flyer, and can shut off pretty much any deck. As it stands, having 10 flash creatures just isn't enough to me when they beat so slow. If you up that count to 12/13 without losing much of the rest of the deck, then you have something that can kill a bit quicker.
"Ideally, any short-term drop is desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped once more players enter the format."
I wasn't talking about the prices short-term, I meant for the long term Wizards is perfectly happy with expensive modern cards once there are enough people in the format to sustain it.
Here is the quote from Wizards in regards to the comparison between Modern Masters and Chronicles. I have bolded some talking points.
"There will be inevitable comparisons of this set to Chronicles, a much-maligned release from 1995 that flooded the market with reprints of highly sought-after cards from Magic's first few expansions. The outrage from collectors with regards to that set led to the creation of the Reserved List, and our hands are still tied from the effects of those compounded mistakes 17 years later.
Chronicles was brought up internally time and time again as Modern Masters evolved. Our R&D and Brand teams have spent many hours contemplating what Chronicles was trying to accomplish and where it went wrong. I ultimately feel that its biggest sin was that it did not respect people's existing collections—a sin we have no intention of repeating.
A glance at print run numbers available in the public domain shows that Chronicles likely increased the number of some cards in existence by a factor of ten or more! Cards that were rare and highly collectible were suddenly ubiquitous. The error was one of scale, and while I understand what the people working here at the time were trying to accomplish, in retrospect it was handled badly. Granted, they were adding their cards to what was then Type 2 (now Standard) and we are not, but I have to think there was a better way for them to solve the problem.
We won't make that mistake again. We don't want to turn cards from scarce to abundant in the blink of an eye, but we do want to alter the availability by a matter of degrees, all with the goal of growing the reach of the Modern format. Ideally, over time, any short-term drop in desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped as more players enter the format. I can't say it enough: our print run is very small, especially compared to what we're making for our current headliner sets like Return to Ravnica. We're playing in a very delicate space, and we know that, but the promise of the Modern format was that we would address card availability issues, and we are focused on figuring out the best way to do that.
If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road. But for now, our plan is to stick with our small printing and keep a close eye on what happens."
-The first bolded point is talking about them wanting to respect collectors. This is them stating that this isn't just a game, but a COLLECTIBLE game and that is something they want to respect. They want collections to remain valuable.
-Second bolded point says they didn't want to print a bunch. Experiment or no experiment they didn't want to print a bunch intentionally for all the other reasons, and that hasn't changed.
-The third bolded point about desirability dropping and being recouped reflects a desire that Wizards has to not change prices in the long run. Any drop in price they want to be temporary. As more players join modern, they want prices/desirability to go back to normal
-The underlined, bolded, italicized point is the key here. They are trying to deal with card availability not card affordability. While linked, these two are different. More than anything, it stresses their desire to increase quantity without a drastic change in price.
No, that is not in their best interest in the slightest. I made a longer post about this in a thread I can't remember. The number one key to Magic's long term success is a healthy secondary market. Companies that can come in and make money off of singles then promote the game with tournaments, merchandise, etc. and advertise like crazy are the reason the game makes sustainable growth. Wizards goal is to get as many people into this game as they can and get them hooked. They actually do very little work towards getting new players. New players are brought in primary via advertising/promoting that is done via companies in the secondary market. A decision that Wizards makes that frustrates SCG, Channel Fireball, etc. is a dangerous move because these are the companies that do the work to popularize this game, NOT Wizards.
Now, I am in favor of reprinting fetches, as are the secondary market guys. While their cards would take a mild hit, the fetchlands are the ONLY cards, and I mean ONLY cards that by being reprinted would get a significant amount of more players into modern. Every other card just prevents people from playing a particular set of decks. Fetchlands pidgeonhole everyone who doesn't have them into 2-3 decks, which deters players from the format. The secondary market wants more modern players in the long term, so they would be ok with this reprint.
Equipment I don't think would be fare with SFM unbanned:
Sword of Kaldra: I don't like this card and its potential interactions... Sunforger: Just does broken, broken things in a control shell which is already the best control in modern... Argentum Armor: You might not see this card as broken with SFM, but it just flat out is. It isn't about the fact that you have to wait until turn 6 to equip, it means that you get to draw it for free, make it uncounterable, and also get to play it early meaning you are free to do other things on other turns. If you make SFM legal, you are risking people finding a way to exploit this in Tron and affinity. Elbrus, the Binding Blade: Being able to search out this card, play it for 5 less mana, and possibly attack on the same turn with a turn 1 play to end the game barring removal is just not fair.
-Affinity Turn 1: Land, Ornithopter, Springleaf, Opal, SFM
-Affinity Turn 2: Tap SFM -> Equip Ornithopter -> Attack -> 13/13 Flying/Intimidate/Trample Unscythe, Killer of Kings: Not that exciting, but you still for 4 mana get +3/+3 first strike that makes blocking very undesirable Necropouncer: The turn it comes in, it can deal 3 damage. From then on, it can give any creature you cast +3/+1 haste for 2 mana.
Oh yeah, and ANY SWORD. Batterskull is great, but being able to tutor swords is absolutely broken. Whatever colors your opponent is playing...doesn't matter. They are through. As fun as it would be to have protection from my opponent's deck no matter what colors it is, I don't think that is exactly fair.
Wizards should stop thinking like bankers and start thinking more like gamers.
They'll definitely print the fetches at rare, not mythic. Utility lands are rare.
They are a company, they are supposed to do what is in their economic best interest. Also, it isn't just a card game. Spades/Hearts/Solitaire...those are card games. This is a collectible card game.
Yeah, I really don't understand at all why people think that MM1 didn't go off pretty much perfectly. Go read Wizard's goals for the set and then tell me if the set didn't accomplish what Wizards wanted, or if it didn't accomplish what YOU wanted. They wanted to increase supply with as minimal effect on prices as possible. I posted in another topic about how the secondary market is probably the most important aspect for the growth and success of this game. To sum it up, if there is a healthy secondary market, there is more advertising and tournaments for Magic. Also, I am of the STRONG opinion that the average price of a competitive modern deck should not be at standard deck levels, but at least 2x that. If they were to reprint fetchlands, that would be about where modern is (if it isn't already). When you make a modern deck, it is good to go potentially forever. Standard decks come and go.
When it comes down to it, MM! dropped prices of its rares by 30%+ and only increased the prices of two of its mythics. I really am sick and tired of hearing the argument about bringing prices down and then seeing people reference Goyf or Bob. Those are 2 cards. There are many competitive decks that don't run Bob or Goyf, so if you are complaining about their prices than either put forth the money or stop complaining. You can't get every card you want if you aren't willing to spend some money. Fetchlands are different, every deck uses them and they are ridiculously expensive. I have 20 atm (playset of each of the 4) and would be TOTALLY cool seeing their prices tank to 20. Makes sense for the game. But stop the talk about a handful of cards that are 50+ dollars when there are still a handful of decks that don't run those cards and are still tier 1. You are not entitled to cheap cards.
The basis of the question is do the 3 types of cards sacrificed/discarded all happen at the same time, or are they ordered, and if so, by who?
Scenario: I have no creatures. Opponent has one creature equipped with skullclamp. I have 1 card in hand (balance) and opponent has 2 in hand. Lands are equal. I cast balance. Does it go:
Creatures first (opponent sacs) -> opponent draws two cards -> therefore, opponent discards 4 cards
OR
All at the same time -> opponent sacs creature and discards 2 -> opponent draws two
I thought that was the best build for Junk, but truthfully there just isn't a great build for Junk at all in my opinion. You can say its my bias, but you are CLEARLY biased yourself. Playing a card like Eidolon of Countless Battles that is only really good when your hexproof creature gets answers is a total trap to me. It isn't the purpose of this deck. If you want to run it, that's ok, and we can agree to disagree. Naya makes your guys the biggest and baddest and gives you the best chance to win quickly, something this deck wants to do. Why don't you post your full decklist again after tweaks and I'll post mine. I'll go test the two against my mono-blue, Selesnya aggro, Mono black, esper/azorius control, and gruul. Maybe you will be right, but I'm pretty sure there is a reason one of those decks went top 8 at an open. I don't think you can just dismiss that fact.
I think you are missing the point. YES this deck is predictable. The awesomeness of this deck is game 1, same with GW auras in modern. This deck is meant to be a glass cannon, and when people move away from that they are losing deck synergy. The reason I kill mono-black devotion the best with naya is because I win game 1 75% of the time, and then either get lucky game 2, or rely on game 3 where I'm on the play. I know standard and modern are different, but if you are going to run a hexproof aura deck, then you are playing a glass cannon meant to dominate game 1, or you playing a non-optimized deck. Are there cold streaks? Sure... But at least hot streaks exist. With other version of this deck, you just flat out can't beat quite a few decks. At least Naya provides a shell that gives you the opportunity to be explosive enough to win matches.
O yeah, and duress/thoughtseize brutalizes this deck period. If they are on the play and they take your 1 creature GG. If you have 2 creatures, then they are taking the enablers.
As far as the top 8 comment...I'm pretty sure that getting 7th in an event with 580 players or whatever says a whole heck of a lot about which deck is the best. I'm pretty sure top 8's is the way in which decks are judged.
Yeah, as someone said above, Voice is amazing...They can't really counter your auras unless they have verdict planned, and it provides production from sacrifice x 2. Essentially what it boils down to is that you need a REALLY good reason not to run voice in any deck playing green and white in standard. The only way I think he comes out is if they give us another cheap, hexproof creature.
Woah dude, didn't mean to frustrate you. First off, the guy I play against the MOST, by far, is mono black, so my testing is skewed towards mono-black and unquestionably Naya > Bant > Selesnya > Junk. There is a reason that one of these decks has made the top 8 at a major event and the others have not. Like some have already posted, your points about Naya versus mono-black would be the same with any iteration of the hexproof deck.
I can understand WHY you would want the ability to draw cards, but there is a reason that Erebos isn't showing up in more decks that have black. Paying 6 mana/2 life for 1 card, 8 mana/4 life for 2 cards, 10 mana/6 life for 3 cards is NOT WORTH IT. It is like a reverse Sphinx's revelation. He is barely ever getting turned on as a creature, and even if he does it isn't until turn 5 and the plays that are required to get him there by turn 5 are not optimal.
And before you knock me on hexproof, I play GW auras extensively in modern. The strengths of a hexproof deck in non-eternal formats are NOT card draw, inevitability, midrange, etc. A hexproof aura deck says "Hey! I have this 1 creature that you can never remove and is going to get enough auras on it to completely wreck you. Say hello to a turn 4 10/10 first strike trample lifelink machine." Are there ways to deal with that? Of course... Is the deck weak to not having turn 1 creature plays? Of course... But if you start moving away from that idea, you are losing the strengths of the deck.
My "Magic Christmasland" situation is just one example in Naya. Essentially, all Naya requires is Gladecover + Madcap + Any other Aura. Does madcap make your creature unblockable 100% of the time on turn 2/3? No... But it does MOST of the time, especially since mono black can't even play a second creature until turn 3, control can't even come close, mono red's will be unleashed, and green's will be tapped. Aggressive strategies will attack with their turn 1 play, and non-aggressive strategies won't have enough creatures to block. When you are playing a hexproof aura deck in standard and you are happier to see madcap skills than ethereal armor, that says ALOT. So even if I don't draw the charm or ghor-clan, I've got my opponent most likely down to 10 or less by turn 3, something the Junk deck cannot boast reliably.
If you are going to play to this deck's strengths, an uncounterable +4/+4 trample boost for 2 mana that can also serve as a creature late game is they somehow deal with yours is JUST what this deck wants.
If you are going to play to this deck's strengths, the ability to make your creature indestructible, deal that last 4 to the face, or give your massive unblockable dude double strike for just 2 mana is JUST what this deck wants.
Sure, if you don't hit the cards at all or they make you sac your guy, you barely ever have a way to come back aside from throwing down a second and getting massive amounts of lifelink, but no matter what version of this deck you are playing, if you are playing against mono-black, mono-blue, control, mono-red, gruul, Orzhov and your guy dies, you are probably going to lose. All those decks have better individual cards than ours. They run creatures that get out of control. They have a board that actually grows in number instead of 1 guy getting really big. No amount of card draw is going to get you back in once they deal with your guy and kill you with the swingback.
And about the turn 4 deal again, there is a strict reason I brought that up. If your deck CAN'T kill on turn 4, then you are in deep deep trouble.
You need to be in a position with a downhill deck like this to either win on turn 4, or assure a turn 5 victory (which boros charm, again, helps with). If you want to go a different route with this deck, that is totally fine. However, if you are trying to move this deck towards winning in the middle of the game, you are missing the purpose of this deck.
Yeah, you are right that it does mulligan well, but that was just an awful keep in a deck that does mulligan well. I think after 7 hours I was just not thinking straight lol
If you are running black lands, run far//away in the side, PERIOD. In my opinion, the biggest issue for azorius post-board against selesnya is that it has SOOOO many issues, meaning if possible, you really don't want to use the wrong answer for each threat or you will just flat run out:
-Experiement One: Selesnya will side in D-sphere hate, and he gets around verdict...
-Answer: Azorius Charm to get those tokens off and make your verdict more likely
-Solider of the Pantheon: Pro-charm, Pro-D-sphere, and you can last breath, but there is one target you really want to save that for...
-Answer: Mutavault. Totally worth losing a vault, and even better if you can Jace beforehand meaning he either won't attack or will lose him and you keep mutavault.
-Voice of Resurgence: We all know what this guy does...
-Answer: Pretty obviously last breath, but the other solid option is Mutavault -> Azorius charm for the token
-Fleecemane Lion: If you answer him before turn 3, you are killing a vanilla 3/3. If you wait, no real answer.
-Answer: Flare or, nice trick is Jace + Last Breath before monstrous. Honestly, some may disagree, but without those this guy is almost worth verdict by himself before turn 5.
-Brimaz: Board can get out of hand very quickly.
-Answer: Jace + Last Breath trick, but really verdict blows this card out for investment. You should have had counter up anyways so thats on you.
-Boon Satyr: If you have to verdict without keeping counter up and they have 3 mana up, be ready for this guy.
-Answer: If they actually bestow this guy, good luck unless you already Rev'd. Otherwise, if you verdict with 6 mana, that leaves enough for mutavault block.
-Advent: 5/5 creature, with trample being pretty irrelevant that comes down after verdict.
-Answer: Azorius Charm, period...
-God's Willing: Turns off Charm/D-sphere/Doom Blade
-Answer: Honestly, aside from spell + negate/dispel up, you don't have one. If they have one white up, you should be thinking about God's Willing
-Rootborn Defenses: Leads to absolute blowouts, since they are ONLY going to use this for verdict unless they can present lethal or have game clearly in hand.
-Answer: If you verdict w/o counter mana up and they have 3 mana, you better be using it as a last resort. If they rootborn in response to verdict with no counter, you WILL lose.
-Mistcutter Hydra: Potentially, your worst nightmare. Mistcutter plays around counter, and also OWNS after verdict.
-If you use verdict, know this guy can be crippling after. Drawing him out of your opponent's hand pre-verdict is great. Otherwise DOOM BLADE.
Truthfully, a good selesnya player will dominate. They won't overextend. They know that with just a turn 1 and turn 2 play they are putting you on quite a clock. If they overextend the board, it generally means they have rootborn, which means you can't verdict until turn 5/6, and thats IF you hit all your land drops and the last land isn't a temple (which it shouldn't be in azorius). If you do verdict without counter and he has 4 mana up, you can expect advent/boon satyr to get in for 5 or 4. Also, a smart guy will use mistcutter as the "Deal 5 damage to target player" that it should be. Although, you did say this guy misplays, so there is that.
Now, with you already running black lands in your deck and if this guy really is the thorn in your side, you should REALLY consider switching to Esper control. While it may seem like all the shocking is bad against an aggro deck, that deck has a much easier time stabilizing than azorius. Thoughtseize, doom blade, devour flesh, hero's downfall, ultimate price...all GREAT cards versus selesnya. For selesnya, instant speed removal essentially is the same as counter magic and then you can use your counters to protect D-sphere or answer rootborn. Also, again, Far//Away is already a great card, but it just DESTROYS selesnya. You have already removed threats, so when you return that voice token to hand and make them sacrifice a monstrous fleecemane, you will feel sooooo good. Finally, as good as Aetherling is, he doesn't help you when you are near death and they have multiple creatures or Mistcutter. Blood Baron of Vizkopa on the other hand does EVERYTHING you want. It blocks everything but Soldier, a 4/4 experiment one, Advent token, or Boon Satyr extremely well, and also just lets you swing away unless they have unflinching courage up. And again, especially with more shocks, thoughtseize may seem expensive with the 2 life, but you are saving yourself life against selesnya when compared to a 4/4 uncounterable pro-blue hydra, 5/5 flash trampler, or 4/2 flash enchant creature.
If you must stick with Azorius, Run essence scatter, more last breath, and dispel in the side. Dissolve is crap against them, you don't want 3 mana up for that spell. Essence scatter = removal, and all of their non-creature spells are instant, so dispel lets you verdict a turn sooner.
3x Restoration Angel
2x Vendillion Clique
2x Spell Snare
1x Remand
for:
2x Mana Leak
2x Sphinx's Revelation
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Ajani Vengeant
1 extra land
It also runs 4 tec edges as opposed to 2. The spell snares and mana leaks could basically be meta calls. If you take those out it is basically Ajani + Sphinx's versus Resto + Clique. The way I see it, the flash deck still doesn't win very quickly. Due to it not winning very quickly, I would much rather have Ajani/Sphinx's in those later scenarios than flyers that can be blocked and only hit for 3 a turn. Obviously the ETB effects are strong, but if you get to mid/late game, the control still overtakes you.
While Geist could be seen as weak in the current meta (which I don't necessarily agree with), he still presents a fast clock to the opponent. Control keeps them from playing the game. The flash version just seems like an awkwardly placed middle man to me. If there were flash creatures that either presented a faster clock or were more resilient, I would be a fan of running those, but in the current meta, Clique is very weak to removal and a 1/1 flyer blocks it (think BB, Lingering Souls, etc.). Resto Angel costs 4 mana for 3 damage, or at best can give you an extra snap on turn 6. I'm just not buying the midrange/control hybrid that is flash atm, but I will start testing it more and see.
The only way I see the flash variety becoming truly successful is if it becomes a good idea to run Aven Mindcensor mainboard. This card is already a great sideboard card, is a 2 power flyer, and can shut off pretty much any deck. As it stands, having 10 flash creatures just isn't enough to me when they beat so slow. If you up that count to 12/13 without losing much of the rest of the deck, then you have something that can kill a bit quicker.
"Ideally, any short-term drop is desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped once more players enter the format."
I wasn't talking about the prices short-term, I meant for the long term Wizards is perfectly happy with expensive modern cards once there are enough people in the format to sustain it.
"There will be inevitable comparisons of this set to Chronicles, a much-maligned release from 1995 that flooded the market with reprints of highly sought-after cards from Magic's first few expansions. The outrage from collectors with regards to that set led to the creation of the Reserved List, and our hands are still tied from the effects of those compounded mistakes 17 years later.
Chronicles was brought up internally time and time again as Modern Masters evolved. Our R&D and Brand teams have spent many hours contemplating what Chronicles was trying to accomplish and where it went wrong. I ultimately feel that its biggest sin was that it did not respect people's existing collections—a sin we have no intention of repeating.
A glance at print run numbers available in the public domain shows that Chronicles likely increased the number of some cards in existence by a factor of ten or more! Cards that were rare and highly collectible were suddenly ubiquitous. The error was one of scale, and while I understand what the people working here at the time were trying to accomplish, in retrospect it was handled badly. Granted, they were adding their cards to what was then Type 2 (now Standard) and we are not, but I have to think there was a better way for them to solve the problem.
We won't make that mistake again. We don't want to turn cards from scarce to abundant in the blink of an eye, but we do want to alter the availability by a matter of degrees, all with the goal of growing the reach of the Modern format. Ideally, over time, any short-term drop in desirability of older cards you may own will be recouped as more players enter the format. I can't say it enough: our print run is very small, especially compared to what we're making for our current headliner sets like Return to Ravnica. We're playing in a very delicate space, and we know that, but the promise of the Modern format was that we would address card availability issues, and we are focused on figuring out the best way to do that.
If the set works and accomplishes what we want—more Modern players—we'll contemplate making another set like it some time down the road. But for now, our plan is to stick with our small printing and keep a close eye on what happens."
-The first bolded point is talking about them wanting to respect collectors. This is them stating that this isn't just a game, but a COLLECTIBLE game and that is something they want to respect. They want collections to remain valuable.
-Second bolded point says they didn't want to print a bunch. Experiment or no experiment they didn't want to print a bunch intentionally for all the other reasons, and that hasn't changed.
-The third bolded point about desirability dropping and being recouped reflects a desire that Wizards has to not change prices in the long run. Any drop in price they want to be temporary. As more players join modern, they want prices/desirability to go back to normal
-The underlined, bolded, italicized point is the key here. They are trying to deal with card availability not card affordability. While linked, these two are different. More than anything, it stresses their desire to increase quantity without a drastic change in price.
Now, I am in favor of reprinting fetches, as are the secondary market guys. While their cards would take a mild hit, the fetchlands are the ONLY cards, and I mean ONLY cards that by being reprinted would get a significant amount of more players into modern. Every other card just prevents people from playing a particular set of decks. Fetchlands pidgeonhole everyone who doesn't have them into 2-3 decks, which deters players from the format. The secondary market wants more modern players in the long term, so they would be ok with this reprint.
Sword of Kaldra: I don't like this card and its potential interactions...
Sunforger: Just does broken, broken things in a control shell which is already the best control in modern...
Argentum Armor: You might not see this card as broken with SFM, but it just flat out is. It isn't about the fact that you have to wait until turn 6 to equip, it means that you get to draw it for free, make it uncounterable, and also get to play it early meaning you are free to do other things on other turns. If you make SFM legal, you are risking people finding a way to exploit this in Tron and affinity.
Elbrus, the Binding Blade: Being able to search out this card, play it for 5 less mana, and possibly attack on the same turn with a turn 1 play to end the game barring removal is just not fair.
-Affinity Turn 1: Land, Ornithopter, Springleaf, Opal, SFM
-Affinity Turn 2: Tap SFM -> Equip Ornithopter -> Attack -> 13/13 Flying/Intimidate/Trample
Unscythe, Killer of Kings: Not that exciting, but you still for 4 mana get +3/+3 first strike that makes blocking very undesirable
Necropouncer: The turn it comes in, it can deal 3 damage. From then on, it can give any creature you cast +3/+1 haste for 2 mana.
Oh yeah, and ANY SWORD. Batterskull is great, but being able to tutor swords is absolutely broken. Whatever colors your opponent is playing...doesn't matter. They are through. As fun as it would be to have protection from my opponent's deck no matter what colors it is, I don't think that is exactly fair.
They are a company, they are supposed to do what is in their economic best interest. Also, it isn't just a card game. Spades/Hearts/Solitaire...those are card games. This is a collectible card game.
When it comes down to it, MM! dropped prices of its rares by 30%+ and only increased the prices of two of its mythics. I really am sick and tired of hearing the argument about bringing prices down and then seeing people reference Goyf or Bob. Those are 2 cards. There are many competitive decks that don't run Bob or Goyf, so if you are complaining about their prices than either put forth the money or stop complaining. You can't get every card you want if you aren't willing to spend some money. Fetchlands are different, every deck uses them and they are ridiculously expensive. I have 20 atm (playset of each of the 4) and would be TOTALLY cool seeing their prices tank to 20. Makes sense for the game. But stop the talk about a handful of cards that are 50+ dollars when there are still a handful of decks that don't run those cards and are still tier 1. You are not entitled to cheap cards.
Scenario: I have no creatures. Opponent has one creature equipped with skullclamp. I have 1 card in hand (balance) and opponent has 2 in hand. Lands are equal. I cast balance. Does it go:
Creatures first (opponent sacs) -> opponent draws two cards -> therefore, opponent discards 4 cards
OR
All at the same time -> opponent sacs creature and discards 2 -> opponent draws two
Thank you!
O yeah, and duress/thoughtseize brutalizes this deck period. If they are on the play and they take your 1 creature GG. If you have 2 creatures, then they are taking the enablers.
As far as the top 8 comment...I'm pretty sure that getting 7th in an event with 580 players or whatever says a whole heck of a lot about which deck is the best. I'm pretty sure top 8's is the way in which decks are judged.
Woah dude, didn't mean to frustrate you. First off, the guy I play against the MOST, by far, is mono black, so my testing is skewed towards mono-black and unquestionably Naya > Bant > Selesnya > Junk. There is a reason that one of these decks has made the top 8 at a major event and the others have not. Like some have already posted, your points about Naya versus mono-black would be the same with any iteration of the hexproof deck.
I can understand WHY you would want the ability to draw cards, but there is a reason that Erebos isn't showing up in more decks that have black. Paying 6 mana/2 life for 1 card, 8 mana/4 life for 2 cards, 10 mana/6 life for 3 cards is NOT WORTH IT. It is like a reverse Sphinx's revelation. He is barely ever getting turned on as a creature, and even if he does it isn't until turn 5 and the plays that are required to get him there by turn 5 are not optimal.
And before you knock me on hexproof, I play GW auras extensively in modern. The strengths of a hexproof deck in non-eternal formats are NOT card draw, inevitability, midrange, etc. A hexproof aura deck says "Hey! I have this 1 creature that you can never remove and is going to get enough auras on it to completely wreck you. Say hello to a turn 4 10/10 first strike trample lifelink machine." Are there ways to deal with that? Of course... Is the deck weak to not having turn 1 creature plays? Of course... But if you start moving away from that idea, you are losing the strengths of the deck.
My "Magic Christmasland" situation is just one example in Naya. Essentially, all Naya requires is Gladecover + Madcap + Any other Aura. Does madcap make your creature unblockable 100% of the time on turn 2/3? No... But it does MOST of the time, especially since mono black can't even play a second creature until turn 3, control can't even come close, mono red's will be unleashed, and green's will be tapped. Aggressive strategies will attack with their turn 1 play, and non-aggressive strategies won't have enough creatures to block. When you are playing a hexproof aura deck in standard and you are happier to see madcap skills than ethereal armor, that says ALOT. So even if I don't draw the charm or ghor-clan, I've got my opponent most likely down to 10 or less by turn 3, something the Junk deck cannot boast reliably.
If you are going to play to this deck's strengths, an uncounterable +4/+4 trample boost for 2 mana that can also serve as a creature late game is they somehow deal with yours is JUST what this deck wants.
If you are going to play to this deck's strengths, the ability to make your creature indestructible, deal that last 4 to the face, or give your massive unblockable dude double strike for just 2 mana is JUST what this deck wants.
Sure, if you don't hit the cards at all or they make you sac your guy, you barely ever have a way to come back aside from throwing down a second and getting massive amounts of lifelink, but no matter what version of this deck you are playing, if you are playing against mono-black, mono-blue, control, mono-red, gruul, Orzhov and your guy dies, you are probably going to lose. All those decks have better individual cards than ours. They run creatures that get out of control. They have a board that actually grows in number instead of 1 guy getting really big. No amount of card draw is going to get you back in once they deal with your guy and kill you with the swingback.
And about the turn 4 deal again, there is a strict reason I brought that up. If your deck CAN'T kill on turn 4, then you are in deep deep trouble.
Azorius/Esper Control: Supreme Verdict
Mono Blue: Master of Waves
Gruul: Xenagos
Red: Fanatic
You need to be in a position with a downhill deck like this to either win on turn 4, or assure a turn 5 victory (which boros charm, again, helps with). If you want to go a different route with this deck, that is totally fine. However, if you are trying to move this deck towards winning in the middle of the game, you are missing the purpose of this deck.
-Experiement One: Selesnya will side in D-sphere hate, and he gets around verdict...
-Answer: Azorius Charm to get those tokens off and make your verdict more likely
-Solider of the Pantheon: Pro-charm, Pro-D-sphere, and you can last breath, but there is one target you really want to save that for...
-Answer: Mutavault. Totally worth losing a vault, and even better if you can Jace beforehand meaning he either won't attack or will lose him and you keep mutavault.
-Voice of Resurgence: We all know what this guy does...
-Answer: Pretty obviously last breath, but the other solid option is Mutavault -> Azorius charm for the token
-Fleecemane Lion: If you answer him before turn 3, you are killing a vanilla 3/3. If you wait, no real answer.
-Answer: Flare or, nice trick is Jace + Last Breath before monstrous. Honestly, some may disagree, but without those this guy is almost worth verdict by himself before turn 5.
-Brimaz: Board can get out of hand very quickly.
-Answer: Jace + Last Breath trick, but really verdict blows this card out for investment. You should have had counter up anyways so thats on you.
-Boon Satyr: If you have to verdict without keeping counter up and they have 3 mana up, be ready for this guy.
-Answer: If they actually bestow this guy, good luck unless you already Rev'd. Otherwise, if you verdict with 6 mana, that leaves enough for mutavault block.
-Advent: 5/5 creature, with trample being pretty irrelevant that comes down after verdict.
-Answer: Azorius Charm, period...
-God's Willing: Turns off Charm/D-sphere/Doom Blade
-Answer: Honestly, aside from spell + negate/dispel up, you don't have one. If they have one white up, you should be thinking about God's Willing
-Rootborn Defenses: Leads to absolute blowouts, since they are ONLY going to use this for verdict unless they can present lethal or have game clearly in hand.
-Answer: If you verdict w/o counter mana up and they have 3 mana, you better be using it as a last resort. If they rootborn in response to verdict with no counter, you WILL lose.
-Mistcutter Hydra: Potentially, your worst nightmare. Mistcutter plays around counter, and also OWNS after verdict.
-If you use verdict, know this guy can be crippling after. Drawing him out of your opponent's hand pre-verdict is great. Otherwise DOOM BLADE.
Truthfully, a good selesnya player will dominate. They won't overextend. They know that with just a turn 1 and turn 2 play they are putting you on quite a clock. If they overextend the board, it generally means they have rootborn, which means you can't verdict until turn 5/6, and thats IF you hit all your land drops and the last land isn't a temple (which it shouldn't be in azorius). If you do verdict without counter and he has 4 mana up, you can expect advent/boon satyr to get in for 5 or 4. Also, a smart guy will use mistcutter as the "Deal 5 damage to target player" that it should be. Although, you did say this guy misplays, so there is that.
Now, with you already running black lands in your deck and if this guy really is the thorn in your side, you should REALLY consider switching to Esper control. While it may seem like all the shocking is bad against an aggro deck, that deck has a much easier time stabilizing than azorius. Thoughtseize, doom blade, devour flesh, hero's downfall, ultimate price...all GREAT cards versus selesnya. For selesnya, instant speed removal essentially is the same as counter magic and then you can use your counters to protect D-sphere or answer rootborn. Also, again, Far//Away is already a great card, but it just DESTROYS selesnya. You have already removed threats, so when you return that voice token to hand and make them sacrifice a monstrous fleecemane, you will feel sooooo good. Finally, as good as Aetherling is, he doesn't help you when you are near death and they have multiple creatures or Mistcutter. Blood Baron of Vizkopa on the other hand does EVERYTHING you want. It blocks everything but Soldier, a 4/4 experiment one, Advent token, or Boon Satyr extremely well, and also just lets you swing away unless they have unflinching courage up. And again, especially with more shocks, thoughtseize may seem expensive with the 2 life, but you are saving yourself life against selesnya when compared to a 4/4 uncounterable pro-blue hydra, 5/5 flash trampler, or 4/2 flash enchant creature.
If you must stick with Azorius, Run essence scatter, more last breath, and dispel in the side. Dissolve is crap against them, you don't want 3 mana up for that spell. Essence scatter = removal, and all of their non-creature spells are instant, so dispel lets you verdict a turn sooner.