@Wallabe: Disallow has benefit of stopping eldrazi trigger, which would suck dealing with I'd imagine. I've compiled a stack of cards as I've gone through collection and I'm excited to sleeve and test it. Good work here, looks really fun.
You have the drum, have you thought about Paradise Mantle as well? Looks like you could use some more rocks.
I hadn't even considered countering the eldrazi shuffle! That's awesome!
Thanks for the idea on paradise mantle. Not sure the deck needs it though. It feels pretty good on mana rocks already. Plus, one of the biggest reasons for springleaf drum is that it allows you to tap a creature a turn early.
In other news, i'm like 99% sure i'll be running the new bike land when it comes out.
Ok, so Expeditions were lands, Inventions were artifacts, and Invications are just a hodgepodge of sought after cards? I can understand them being different card types, but - maybe I'm missing something - what do the Invocations have in common?
It's weird. Some of them, like the commands, worship, and entomb feel super on-flavor. But then...FoW?
Disallow: It's a little more expensive than other options, but I'm loving the range of targets it can stop. I'm planning to test it. Perilous Predicament: It's fun removal, but I'm not sure we really need it. Reverse Engineer: It's decent card draw. The cost isn't terrible either. But it's not enough to take the place of a recurring draw engine. Fatal Push: Obviously this card is great. But without reliable revolt triggers, I don't see it going far in this format. Paradox Engine: As we've discussed, it's got potential, but it needs testing. Walking Ballista: It's a mana sink that can be used to make a pretty big miller. On top of that, it can be used for spot removal, even against planeswalkers. But with its costs, I'm not sure this deck can really make the best use of it. Crackdown Construct: This card was so disappointing. Its ability is so on flavor. It gets pumped up to mill when other creatures mill, and even pumps itself. But two toughness (technically three) for four mana is pretty expensive by itself compared to the walls we have available. In most scenarios, it won't build up enough toughness to make up for it. The few cases were it will get really big are generally either too niche or winmore.
Hey! This post is a bit old, but I am looking for ways to improve my Phenax deck and was wondering why you don't run Mind Grind?
It may mill a large amount of cards over multiple players. But even investing a large amount of mana in it, it will only mill a single player for a relatively small amount for the cost. Combined with being single use, and it just doesn't go very far. When I was running it, there was really never an amount of mana I could spend on it that would be big enough.
I think that with creatures like Ætherling, Intruder Alarm could be more broken than Paradox Engine. I already run Ætherling (and Morphling) since I can indefinitely raise their toughness. So blinking Ætherling with Intruder Alarm gives me a fresh set of untapped creatures in order to mill once more.
Intruder Alarm is definitely a powerful card in Phenax mill. There are some cards that create tokens that not only trigger Alarm, but additional creatures help you toward the goal of winning. Bloodline Keeper goes infinite and Undead Alchemist has the potential. Thousand-Year Elixir helps a lot. Curse of the Swine can trigger Alarm quite a lot.
Sorry it's been so long everyone. Unfortunately I haven't been able to make much time at my LGS, and finding games on Cockatrice has gotten surprisingly difficult. In the next day or so though I'll do a writeup on Aether Revolt.
Been really enjoying Phenax as a commander lately - he's been kicking butt and taking names at several multi-player games with a list using this as a foundation along with EDHrec. Here's what I've noticed.
Targeted Mill spells aren't great. Similar to the OP's list, I've avoided instants and sorceries that only target one player. It tends to earn you an enemy at the table and frankly they just don't do enough. One of Phenax's greatest strengths is that you get to benefit from a beefy creature defense AND the gifted mill effect.
The creatures that get bigger based on enemy graveyards are very effective. They nombo with all the graveyard hate that I run, but I have found it's pretty reasonable to play around it based on board state.
Forced draw is important. Been a few games where a nuisance shuffle creature like Serra's Avatar or an oddball like Necropotence has caused problems. I've been running Jace Beleren, Jace's Archivist, and Geir-Reach Sanitarium to help with this. I've been extremely happy with the results. Sometimes you just need a player out of the game NOW.
Disagree with cutting Keening Stone. I find that in a multiplayer game I tend to mill evenly to avoid the hate, then sucker punch somebody out of the game. Mill your deck effects are important, and this provides one.
Really been liking running Swan's Song and Annul. Keeping things like Nevermore off the board is very important. If they lock you out of Phenax this deck just doesn't win.
Been running saboteur creatures like Shadowmage Infiltrator and been enjoying them. On the odd chance you can't find a player to connect against they still mill for a few.
Untap effects are pretty brutal in this deck. Intruder Alarm I'm inclined to think is a must-have. Really looking forward to adding Paradox Engine.
Thanks for the feedback. In the metas I've played, I'm pretty happy with where the deck is at in terms of things like answers. But if the choices you've made help with yours, I'm glad to hear it! And I may have to give Keening Stone another shot.
I'm assuming Paradox Engine is 1,000,000% gonna be included in the deck, right?
Yes, Yes, Yes.
I've been building a Phenax deck for a long old time now. I'm not building it to be competitive as much as enjoying my game of commander by spoiling everyone else's fun, but I've been really enjoying playing it so far. I'll go back into this thread in a bit more detail later, but the amount of times I've won games by ultimating Jace with Sphynx's Tutelage....what fun...
I really appreciate this approach to the deck. I've tried to not make it something that will lock other people out. As it's gotten better, it's obviously gotten more competitive, and there are some mean combos that are just way to on-flavor to leave out. It's not perfect, but I do what I can with it.
Is their a specific reason for not using Mystical Tutor?
If we're looking to add tutors from my current list, we've got better options. Like I could swap in Vampiric Tutor, which in this format is about as close to strictly better as you can get without going over. Plus this deck is more creature heavy than instants/sorceries. But if you end up needing another tutor, and you'll get the use out of it, then go for it.
Do you think it would be ok to add in a little more counterspells? I currently run more than you (Pact of Negation, Cryptic Command, Counterspell, and Insidious Will) however I still wanted to try and run Disallow and Summary Dismissal. My meta is kind of full with "bomb" decks (basically decks that don't do much of anything, then explode with a win from nowhere because of 2-3 cards), and I needed a few more counterspells.
I prefer not to run them, but that's a personal preference. It's a UB deck; it'll do well with extra control.
Torrential Gearhulk: It's basically Memory Plunder with a body and an exile close. The latter isn't a big concern for the deck, while the former is fantastic. On a quick spell like this, though, I'd rather not see an increase in cmc. I will keep it in mind though, as the four generic could prove easier to cast than 4x U/B. Insidious Will: I love all of the different modes on this thing. It's pretty strong, and would be at home with the deck's small control package. The CMC is a deal-breaker though. The only place it wouldn't be a sharp increase is Glen Elendra Archmage, but I still prefer the latter. Thriving Turtle: It's got a great toughness for it's cmc, but that alone is pretty underwhelming. It's ability is combat focused, so it's basically a worse Hedron Crab in this deck. Gonti, Lord of Luxury: I like that he has a higher toughness, and the deathtouch is great for pillowfort. His ETB is neat too, but I'm not sure it does enough for us. Midnight Oil: This is a wicked powerful draw engine, and I wish it fit better in the deck. Without Reliquary Tower, though, it's either going to be win more or hurt more than it helps. Janjeet Sentry: At first I was kind of excited about this. But then I realized it's basically a worse Fatestitcher. Master of Inquiries: This guy is way too slow. I'd take the turtle over him. Experimental Aviator: While the tokens are nice, ultimately this only gives us five toughness for five mana. Dramatic Reversal: This card represents why I love EDH. The best card for this deck from this set is a common. This will go to the list of cards I'm considering. It seems like a no-brainer for this deck, I'm just not sure where it should go. Aether Theorist: Sure it's cheaper, but it's basically a weaker Geist of the Archives in this deck. Contraband Kingpin: The toughness is nice for the cost, and lifelink is a bonus. But the make or break is the triggered ability. Frankly, I don't see it happening enough in this deck to be worth a slot. Multiform Wonder: This card is so close to a perfect fit for this deck. It's pumps and the abilities it can gain could almost make it as good as Aetherling when you consider that they don't cost mana. But I would need to add multiple energy generators to the deck to really make it worthwhile. Consulate Skygate: It's a well-priced wall for what it is. It just doesn't do enough overall.
And on the topic of deck changes, I think I can confidently change Hover Barrier for Geist of the Archives. The need for earlier fliers is looking pretty niche at the moment. And so the scry is making it more useful.
If you haven't already, I suggest you check my primer (link in sig). It may be more commander dependent than you're going for, but it's a really fun list and should hopefully give you some ideas.
If we were to take out 1 card for Sire of Stagnation, what would it be?
Personally I'm not a fan of Sire of Stagnation, but as long as your meta isn't too heavy on old-school eldrazi titans and colossi, I'd say the best swap would be for Praetor's Grasp.
Just made the following change. The rest I'm still testing.
Glacial Wall >> Tree of Perdition: The tree is a fantastic win con, and better in almost every way. I'm not crazy about the increase in CMC, but it's proven to be well worth it.
Let's take a look at Conspiracy 2. I should note that I'll be referring to some reprints as if they were brand new. This is because it's the first I'm hearing about them.
Expropriate: It's a fun, powerful card for sure. But it's super expensive and not on-flavor. Covenant of Minds: Seems like it could be really strong. I'm not huge on single use card draw for this deck though. Followed Footsteps: This seems super strong. But its cost is going to make it too slow. It has the same CMC as Phenax and a number of wincons for the deck. Getting it out would either mean ultimately delaying ourselves or that its target will likely have already won us the game or been removed by the time it starts providing a return. Stunt Double: This is a fantastic clone card. But there are others that I feel give us better utility than flash. Capitol Punishment: This card scales amazingly into multiplayer. I'm not sure this deck is quite the right fit for it though. I'd prefer it more for the board wipe. The discard is really strong too, but this deck doesn't really have any way to capitalize on it. Deceiver Exarch: The toughness on it is decent for the price, and the abilities are pretty nice too. My big issue with it is that it can't really be used as an early-game creature. It's not going to be useful until later, at which point it's own milling abilities become pretty lackluster. Marchesa's Decree: It's pillowforty and gives card advantage. What's not to love? Well the loss of life a single life is pretty underwhelming in EDH. And this would allow other players to become the monarch. As a pillowfort deck, it would be tough to reclaim, so we'd basically be giving our opponents card advantage. Vertigo Spawn: I really want to love this card. The toughness combined with the ability make it fantastic for its cost. The problem is that, unlike Wall of Frost, it's a card that we want as a blocker but won't survive most hits in this format. Jeering Homunculus: This card has great toughness for its cost, and Goad is fantastic for pillowfort. The fact that the latter is etb, though, really hinders it for this deck. It's only single use, and it won't really become useful until mid-late game, giving it the same downside as Deceiver Exarch.
Ultimately, I thought this set was a blast. And it has a weirdly high number of relevant cards to this deck. Sadly, none of them do enough to earn a spot.
With regards to the whole Hover Barrier etc debate, how often would you hit devotion for Thassa? Having an indestructible 5/5 is pretty nice from a fort point of view, assuming you could reliably get her online.
I tested devotion for Erebos, God of the Dead waaaayyy back when. Ultimately, this deck has a harder time getting five devotion of a single color than seven of two. Which means that I wouldn't reliably be able to turn Thassa, God of the Sea into a creature. And so while she's generally a far superior card, I would expect the geist to be better more consistently for this deck.
I've swapped Fetid Pools for Creeping Tar Pit. I feel like it just gives more utility.
I'm also testing Disallow for Counterspell instead of Memory Lapse.
I hope to have a full review for Amonkhet soon.
I hadn't even considered countering the eldrazi shuffle! That's awesome!
Thanks for the idea on paradise mantle. Not sure the deck needs it though. It feels pretty good on mana rocks already. Plus, one of the biggest reasons for springleaf drum is that it allows you to tap a creature a turn early.
In other news, i'm like 99% sure i'll be running the new bike land when it comes out.
Disallow: It's a little more expensive than other options, but I'm loving the range of targets it can stop. I'm planning to test it.
Perilous Predicament: It's fun removal, but I'm not sure we really need it.
Reverse Engineer: It's decent card draw. The cost isn't terrible either. But it's not enough to take the place of a recurring draw engine.
Fatal Push: Obviously this card is great. But without reliable revolt triggers, I don't see it going far in this format.
Paradox Engine: As we've discussed, it's got potential, but it needs testing.
Walking Ballista: It's a mana sink that can be used to make a pretty big miller. On top of that, it can be used for spot removal, even against planeswalkers. But with its costs, I'm not sure this deck can really make the best use of it.
Crackdown Construct: This card was so disappointing. Its ability is so on flavor. It gets pumped up to mill when other creatures mill, and even pumps itself. But two toughness (technically three) for four mana is pretty expensive by itself compared to the walls we have available. In most scenarios, it won't build up enough toughness to make up for it. The few cases were it will get really big are generally either too niche or winmore.
It may mill a large amount of cards over multiple players. But even investing a large amount of mana in it, it will only mill a single player for a relatively small amount for the cost. Combined with being single use, and it just doesn't go very far. When I was running it, there was really never an amount of mana I could spend on it that would be big enough.
It's worth testing, but ultimately I agree with you.
I'd never considered Bloodline Keeper, that could be fun.
And yeah. There are definitely builds that could make great use of Paradox Engine. I'm just not sure it's this one.
Thanks for the feedback. In the metas I've played, I'm pretty happy with where the deck is at in terms of things like answers. But if the choices you've made help with yours, I'm glad to hear it! And I may have to give Keening Stone another shot.
I'll be testing it. The question is how often I can get the trigger off. With Intruder Alarm, by comparison, opponents do a lot of the work for you.
I really appreciate this approach to the deck. I've tried to not make it something that will lock other people out. As it's gotten better, it's obviously gotten more competitive, and there are some mean combos that are just way to on-flavor to leave out. It's not perfect, but I do what I can with it.
Thanks!
If we're looking to add tutors from my current list, we've got better options. Like I could swap in Vampiric Tutor, which in this format is about as close to strictly better as you can get without going over. Plus this deck is more creature heavy than instants/sorceries. But if you end up needing another tutor, and you'll get the use out of it, then go for it.
I prefer not to run them, but that's a personal preference. It's a UB deck; it'll do well with extra control.
I haven't, and it's lower on my list. It's really powerful, but I'm not sure how far it'll go being single use.
Torrential Gearhulk: It's basically Memory Plunder with a body and an exile close. The latter isn't a big concern for the deck, while the former is fantastic. On a quick spell like this, though, I'd rather not see an increase in cmc. I will keep it in mind though, as the four generic could prove easier to cast than 4x U/B.
Insidious Will: I love all of the different modes on this thing. It's pretty strong, and would be at home with the deck's small control package. The CMC is a deal-breaker though. The only place it wouldn't be a sharp increase is Glen Elendra Archmage, but I still prefer the latter.
Thriving Turtle: It's got a great toughness for it's cmc, but that alone is pretty underwhelming. It's ability is combat focused, so it's basically a worse Hedron Crab in this deck.
Gonti, Lord of Luxury: I like that he has a higher toughness, and the deathtouch is great for pillowfort. His ETB is neat too, but I'm not sure it does enough for us.
Midnight Oil: This is a wicked powerful draw engine, and I wish it fit better in the deck. Without Reliquary Tower, though, it's either going to be win more or hurt more than it helps.
Janjeet Sentry: At first I was kind of excited about this. But then I realized it's basically a worse Fatestitcher.
Master of Inquiries: This guy is way too slow. I'd take the turtle over him.
Experimental Aviator: While the tokens are nice, ultimately this only gives us five toughness for five mana.
Dramatic Reversal: This card represents why I love EDH. The best card for this deck from this set is a common. This will go to the list of cards I'm considering. It seems like a no-brainer for this deck, I'm just not sure where it should go.
Aether Theorist: Sure it's cheaper, but it's basically a weaker Geist of the Archives in this deck.
Contraband Kingpin: The toughness is nice for the cost, and lifelink is a bonus. But the make or break is the triggered ability. Frankly, I don't see it happening enough in this deck to be worth a slot.
Multiform Wonder: This card is so close to a perfect fit for this deck. It's pumps and the abilities it can gain could almost make it as good as Aetherling when you consider that they don't cost mana. But I would need to add multiple energy generators to the deck to really make it worthwhile.
Consulate Skygate: It's a well-priced wall for what it is. It just doesn't do enough overall.
And on the topic of deck changes, I think I can confidently change Hover Barrier for Geist of the Archives. The need for earlier fliers is looking pretty niche at the moment. And so the scry is making it more useful.
Personally I'm not a fan of Sire of Stagnation, but as long as your meta isn't too heavy on old-school eldrazi titans and colossi, I'd say the best swap would be for Praetor's Grasp.
Glacial Wall >> Tree of Perdition: The tree is a fantastic win con, and better in almost every way. I'm not crazy about the increase in CMC, but it's proven to be well worth it.
Expropriate: It's a fun, powerful card for sure. But it's super expensive and not on-flavor.
Covenant of Minds: Seems like it could be really strong. I'm not huge on single use card draw for this deck though.
Followed Footsteps: This seems super strong. But its cost is going to make it too slow. It has the same CMC as Phenax and a number of wincons for the deck. Getting it out would either mean ultimately delaying ourselves or that its target will likely have already won us the game or been removed by the time it starts providing a return.
Stunt Double: This is a fantastic clone card. But there are others that I feel give us better utility than flash.
Capitol Punishment: This card scales amazingly into multiplayer. I'm not sure this deck is quite the right fit for it though. I'd prefer it more for the board wipe. The discard is really strong too, but this deck doesn't really have any way to capitalize on it.
Deceiver Exarch: The toughness on it is decent for the price, and the abilities are pretty nice too. My big issue with it is that it can't really be used as an early-game creature. It's not going to be useful until later, at which point it's own milling abilities become pretty lackluster.
Marchesa's Decree: It's pillowforty and gives card advantage. What's not to love? Well the loss of life a single life is pretty underwhelming in EDH. And this would allow other players to become the monarch. As a pillowfort deck, it would be tough to reclaim, so we'd basically be giving our opponents card advantage.
Vertigo Spawn: I really want to love this card. The toughness combined with the ability make it fantastic for its cost. The problem is that, unlike Wall of Frost, it's a card that we want as a blocker but won't survive most hits in this format.
Jeering Homunculus: This card has great toughness for its cost, and Goad is fantastic for pillowfort. The fact that the latter is etb, though, really hinders it for this deck. It's only single use, and it won't really become useful until mid-late game, giving it the same downside as Deceiver Exarch.
Ultimately, I thought this set was a blast. And it has a weirdly high number of relevant cards to this deck. Sadly, none of them do enough to earn a spot.
Yeah, if it had flying, this choice would be no contest. As it is though, the geist is holding up well so far in testing.