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  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Detour!

    I think we probably have a definition problem about what a 75% deck is. I think you can play all kinds of crazy stuff and still have your deck be a 75% deck. You're going hard, you're playing powerful cards. You're constrained by gameplan not by budget.

    Playing expensive mana rocks does not intrinsically make a deck competitive, nor does playing expensive cards like Survival of the fittest.

    The fundamental things about competitive decks for me are
    1) Trying their hardest to maximize their win rate
    2) constructed with the appropriate critical turn in mind (this is probably 2 or 3 in CEDH - if you are not interacting or winning by turn 3 you're doing something wrong, right?)
    3) Strong gameplan
    4) No budget constraints

    You can make a deck that is non-competitive but that is not constrained by budget. Both my Ephara and my Gitrog&& decks are excellent examples; I have tons of dumb cards, but I'm usually doing a few things differently than CEDH:

    * Not curving as aggressively as needed for CEDH
    * Not playing a CEDH ready gameplan

    Fundamentally I like playing a really firm foundation of mana from which to build my tower of nonsense so I invest heavily in manabases and efficient enablers.

    In the end I think if we don't agree on what a mid-powered deck is that's probably the heart of our disagreement. At my shop people play all kinds of crazy cards, but also weaker cards, weaker gameplans, and weaker generals. I saw a dude with a Mana Crypt in his Windgrace Tokens deck the other day. Doubling season so he could double his worm havrest tokens.

    I lost to a guy who was playing Paradox Engine in his Urza Voltron deck with some CEDH powerhouse cards as Grappling Hook.


    && I'll cede that the Gitrog deck is going a little harder than typical (85%, say) but it doesn't combo and the gameplan of "cast a bunch of eldrazi" is fairly slow.


    --------------------------------------------------------

    And back to the point at hand. I see all kinds of bad decks playing paradox engine in a way that accidentally wins sometimes. But sometimes these bad decks have mana crypt and mox diamond. But maybe their general sucks and they don't play any tutors. Or maybe their endgame is to flood the board with creatures with crazy PE mana and pass the turn.

    I think PE is the natural focal point for too many deck styles.

    I'm glad it's not the case for your meta Smile
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Gifts Ungiven
    I think the place to look for whether gifts is really a problem is in the upper-mid end of the power spectrum of EDH decks, 75% decks or whatever you want to call them.

    If Protean Hulk and Tooth and Nail haven't ruined those metas I'm not sure Gifts would. It feels like most gifts piles that will win out of hand are things you have to be really designing for.

    In lower powered metas I think gifts is hot garbage. If people wanna gifts for whispersilk cloak, swiftfoot boots, expedition map and strata scythe or whatever they are welcome to :p
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Listen man, you're being a bit too aggro for me to want to continue to engage with you. I feel like we've had this chat before. I have plenty of things to say to your stuff, but I'll do you the courtesy of not taking parting shots.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Buffsam89 »


    (1) You’re also one pretty hypocritical individual. You claim Dunhareow skims your novels, yet you only cherry pick points out of others reply’s. You’ve also resorted to being a bit smug, but whatever.

    (2) And why the hell do you keep bringing up CEDH? What relevance does that have here?

    (3) Actually, let’s go one step further.

    -15 rocks/dorks. Or, 15% of your deck. 50% of your deck is mana sources. Yeah, that definitely sounds like the majority of decks.
    -in my Ojutai deck, I listed 5 rocks. So I’d need to cut 11 cards to fit in a card+enablers. I never had to do that with PoK. 1 for 1 exchange always did the trick.
    -Of the rocks almost required to make P.E worthwhile are freaking eternal format staples, and easily dwarf the price of the enabler. So, take a seat on that price tag comment.



    1) I respond to the points I want to respond to. This is different than responding to straw men arguments I have not made. If you want to grab a couple lines from my post and ask me to clarify by all means.

    2) CEDH is relevant because there is an argument in play that has been regularly been made that Paradox Engine is only played in CEDH. And also because we know from past banning history that the rules committee largely does not care if a card is broken in CEDH. Ergo discussing the degree to which a card gravitates toward CEDH is relevant.

    3) 15 rocks and 30-35 lands is at most 50% of your deck. EDH standard is to play in the vicinity of 45-50 mana sources. If you look at any given deck it'll be 45 +/- 10 for the most part. your Ojutai deck does not seem to be very good with Paradox engine. Cool? I never claimed it was good in every deck, so I don't know where that is coming from.

    It's good in lots of decks. Lots of decks play 15 or so mana accelerants total.

    From reading hundreds of lists the normal number seems to be about 10, but as a deck skews more toward competitive it gets closer and closer to 12-15.

    Edit: something to remember there is that card draw, cantrips and tutors factor in as well, and of course the commanders that make a butt ton of mana.

    Quote from Dunharrow »


    (1) You misunderstand me. Artifact hate kills the artifacts you need to have in play to go off with Paradox Engine. A turn 4 shatterstorm means that PE is unlikely to do anything should anyone play it. You also have the added benefit of disrupting people's mana.

    (2) Sylvan primordial was banned because by itself it was too much value. Protean Hulk was unbanned. Which card is more powerful?



    1) no, I understand you. Playing removal to solve a problem is the same whether it's denying resources or killing the engine. If your answer to a card that potentially creates too much advantage is "play more removal" then I think there's a problem with your framing o the question. The question is not "can it be answered?" but "does it create too much of an advantage?" Dying to removal or being kept in check by removal is not a thing the banlist is really about, if it was Prophet would still be around as it is even more vulnerable to hate than paradox engine.

    2) SP vs. Hulk is a very complex discussion. My opinion is that the banlist is primarily used to address how much disruption a card causes to medium to high power level games. If you'll pardon some oversimplification and rough analyis--

    Hulk is say, a 9/10 in power in competitive, a 6/10 in 75% metas, and a 4-5/10 in 50% metas
    Sylvan Primordial is a 0/10 in competitive, a 9/10 in 75% and an 8/10 in 50% metas

    So you hit on something I've been talking about with the CEDH stuff, which is that a card's impact has to be assessed in the major realms of EDH but primarily in 50 and 75%.

    In my opinion, Prophet of Kruphix was more of a Sylvan Primordial than a Protean Hulk.

    And what we're arguing about here is largely what category Paradox Engine lives in.

    I would rank Paradox Engine as a 7/10 in competitive, an 8/10 in 75%, and a 2/10 in 50%, maybe even as low as a 0.

    Prophet I would say was a 0/10 in competitive, 9/10 in 75%, and 6/10 in 50%. Maybe higher in 50%.

    Where I think Paradox Engine is a huge problem is in more tuned, but non-CEDH metas, where people have access to high power level cards but tend to have a little bit of restraint. And it continues to get worse and worse the longer it's unbanned because of its overlap with the hyper competitive metas.

    Its very nature is to blur the lines and cause people to start playing Winter Orb because it's good with engine, not because they necessarily want to make a hardcore stax deck.

    And boy do I hate that. I've had more casuals drop Static orb on me since paradox engine was printed than in the last 5 years of EDH.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Is Evolving Wilds worth playing in 2 colour decks // Optimal land base for 2 colour deck
    So in 2 color decks it is very important to differentiate between enemy and allied pairs. There are at least 3 more sets of lands for allied pairs (though I think the gap is shrinking. Also, anything wiht Black in it has an additional land to consider (tainted).

    In general I think most 2 color manabases can support approximately 3 lands that enter the battlefield tapped. So that's my guiding principle. I will do almost anything to avoid playing more than just the temple and then some utility lands like Mistveil Plains or halimar depths.

    But in general when I build a budget 2 color manabase that is not using offcolor fetches, I will do the following - example from a UW deck:



    That gives me 14 lands that tap for both colors. Then I will go to 7 of each basic, which gives you a nice round 21 sources of each color. 21 is a nice round number that gives you about an 80% of seeing 2 of each color in the first 11 cards after mulligans, maybe a hair more.

    From there you can season to taste; add some basics of one color if it's over-represented (say you play lots of 3 pip spells of that color), add some utility lands of different colors.

    If your deck is slow you can consider Thawing Glaciers.

    Tons of other things go into it though. Like if you're in Green, you can think of your green ramp spells that get lands as color fixing, and in white you have stuff like land tax / weathered wayfarer, and so on.

    Sometimes you want to play some stuff that finds basics like Armillary Sphere. And artifacts can fix, etc.

    Re: Rainbow lands
    It's probably just me but I will almost never play rainbow lands in 2 color manabases. The pain ones especially. The damage really can add up when you don't have a colorless mode to not take damage. Pain lands yes, rainbow pain no.

    Reflecting pool is just OK. I tend to not like it a lot in 2 color because it can really screw you up. but it is reasonable I guess. Really depend son the deck and the mana needs.


    ------------------------------------------

    To get to the TL;DR

    I will only play any of the slow fetches if my deck is explicitly budget and usually then only if it needs to have more 5 color lands for some reason (e.g. I play evolving wilds in my budget Atraxa deck).

    They are seriously terrible. I'll make all kinds of concessions before an evolving wilds goes in a deck.

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Buffsam89 »
    So the next time you feel the urge to say "Prophet was played way more than Paradox Engine!" This is almost certainly incorrect.


    Prophet was played more.

    I hate EDHrec. It doesn’t paint anywhere near to a complete picture, and often caters to a higher tier of players than the casuals the format is pointed at.

    Fact: I’ve played EDH for 10+ years. I’ve built hundred of decks, both in paper and online. I have visited EDHrec exactly 1 time, and have never posted a decklist on there. That point, in and of itself, buries any point you are trying to make by using EDHrec. It’s a valuable tool, but hardly paints a complete picture.

    Another fact: I’ve revived my MTGO account to play some jank. My groups haven’t gotten together as much and it helps scratch that itch. I started about the beginning of June again, play about 3-4 games a night, both 1v1 and Multi-player. I have yet to see Paradox engine, even once. So in over 100 matches, this boogeyman, has yet to be played. In a forum that isn’t exactly kind to the social contract.

    Originally, I had played MTGO from M11 thru Amonkhet. I saw PrimeTime, Sylvan Primordial, and Prophet of Kruphix all played significantly more than I have ever seen P.E. The same goes for paper.

    You are really underselling how much PoK was played, and with literally no data to back it up.

    I’ve also reviewed my decks. The deck that would probably make the most use out of P.E is my DragonLord Ojutai. I run Sol Ring, Signet, Mind Stone, Coalition Relic, and Basalt Monolith(with power artifact, to fuel a game ending Stroke of Genius if needed). What’s the reason to run P.E? Untap Ojutai? Make 5 additional mana? I’d have to add a few more expensive($$) rocks, more draw to keep the spells in hand, and all the while tweak the deck as a whole. For what? To make P.E. Do something stupid?

    What I am curious about, though, is what the rock/dork density is in those decks that have P.E. That would be actual relevant information. What does it take for X cards to make P.E work degenerately? Is it 10 rocks/dorks? 10% of your deck, after ~40% of your deck is dedicated to mana-sources that don’t work with P.E? How much draw power is there? Is it confined to a specific color combination? Does it appear more in Blue decks than Green, etc.?


    1. Prophet was played less!! See, how we're equally right. There's some data, EDHRec is mostly all we have. I don't claim to say it's the gospel but it's probably more representative than you think, at least in my experience. Stuff like, Mana crypt being in 1 in 11 decks - that feels fairly close to me. Lots of the randoms I run into have at least one mana crypt.

    Maybe worst case I think I saw Prophet as much as twice as often as I see Paradox engine now. But some of that may be bias because prophet made for much more tedious games of magic and was cloned and such more as well.

    2. I can't really discuss MTGO's metagame intelligently. But if I had to make a guess I would say that the combos with PE have to be quite tedious to click through right? I think I would die if I had to activate staff of domination 70 times on MTGO.

    3. I'm underselling how much PoK was played? I mean, all I can do is guestimate based on limited data. But I know in my personal groups most of us had one PoK deck but no one really had more than one for the most part. We saw it a lot, but a lot of that was related to the meta at the time; the game has changed a LOT since then in terms of enabling spell and artifact strategies.

    I don't even know that paradox engine would have seen much play had it been printed in 2014, because we've seen I would guess a tripling of the pool of generals who can leverage it well. There are probably a dozen generals that are two card combos with PE that have been printed since then.

    4. I think most decks need 15 combined rocks/dorks/tap effects to want to play PE. This makes for a subset of decks that I suspect are between 5 and 10% of the metagame just guessing. It includes every general who will combo with PE though too, and here's a list:



    If those, I would say about a third are green and the rest are blue for the most part, and not all of them PE is an autoinclude.

    There are mainly two (three with urza and selvala 2 :P) categories of PE decks I see:

    1) Paradox engine makes your general make insane mana - cards like Rishkar, Selvala 1, Kudele, etc.

    2) Paradox engine turns your general into a functional infinite draw engine - cards like azami, arcanis, muzzio, thrasios, nin

    3) Paradox engine does both (Urza, Selvala 2, Thrasios + kydele)

    I think each one of those types of decks probably wants to play a different ramp profile. Decks where your general is card advantage can afford to just play crazy tons of mana. Decks where your general makes crazy amounts of mana require less.

    The interesting thing about the "all I play is mana" approach is that you can really just keep chaining all the rocks in your deck since every time you cast a rock you draw cards.


    Quote from MRHblue »
    A lot of people not seeing Paradox Engine seems pretty easy to point to : Its price.

    Now it could also be that people get/got tired of it, and its use in '75% metas' trickled down.

    I certainly am not saying its in every deck, or that it ruins every game night I get to. Its just been enough I think it hits the marks.


    PE being a 40 dollar card from a 2 year old set purely on the basis of EDH demand is pretty telling. There's no way it's just CEDH driving this.

    The closest analogue we have is probably Expropriate - though it not being a standard set is confounding.

    When a recent set mythic is 40 bucks and only played in EDH you can bet damned good money that it is seeing a ton of play in semi-competitive (75%) decks. Can anyone think of a CEDH staple analogue?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Dunharrow »


    Much of your argument has been that PE is abusable in most decks most of the time - that most decks have enough mana rocks to take advantage of PE. I just went through the 21 decks 'random deck of the week' thread. None had PE. 3-4 of them had enough mana rocks to take advantage of PE should it have been in the list.



    1) Hopefully this will explain why I am not going point by point with your response, and I meant his in the most polite possible way -- this statement of yours is evidence that you are either skimming of making serious assumptions that are not in what I posted at all. I have never claimed PE is abusable by "most decks." I'll even quote myself from this very page to hopefully drive that home.

    There are many decks. Not most.


    The biggest difference is that we don't see the same level of cloning/bribing as we saw with prophet, and of course the reason for that is that PE is a somewhat narrower card. But not narrow enough in my opinion:) Its power level ceiling is much higher but it's not quite busted enough to join dramatic scepter in CEDH only town.

    I'm at the point I don't want to make an artifact deck or a mana dork deck anymore because they seem to demand paradox engine almost. It's so absurdly good in those shells it's hard to eschew. Without making your deck much worse anyway.

    Point is that if you watch the prevalence, PE is rapidly becoming accepted as the engine of choice for its decks in a very similar (but slower) way than Prophet of Kruphix did.

    Decks with a high volume of creatures or artifacts with tap effects are the ones that play Paradox Engine.



    2) Second point, you said:

    Quote from Dunharrow »

    If I had PE showing up as often as you do, I would be playing a lot more artifact hate. Cleansing Nova, Vandalblast, Shatterstorm, even more ETB creatures that break artifacts. If everyone has 10+ artifacts these cards will always be good.


    Please review the discussion in the Prophet of Kruphix thread on why "play more removal" is not the answer to every problem.

    Your statement is a variant of "git gud scrub" combined with "dies to removal." You are welcome to peruse my decks but you'll find I probably play more removal than most people (with an exception for my Gitrog deck which runs just enough and my MW deck which is in the tuning phase).

    When I see a Paradox engine the odds I have a piece of removal are quite high. Unfortunately, much like Prophet of Kruphix, removal is often moot against it. You can go read the various Prophet of Kruphix threads for explanations on this if you like.

    ANECDOTE ALERT

    Vague anecdote about removal;

    One time I tried to remove my opponent's paradox engine, he floated mana, pacted my removal, and cast soulscour. Said "Thanks, I needed the mana from the free untap off pact!" It was weird sequencing where I did it in his main phase because I wanted to prevent him from untapping his creatures second main or something? or I had to float extra mana? I can't remember. But I surely do remember the pact getting him to the necessary mana :p

    PE has some similar issues with prophet of kruphix in that respect. if your removal isn't countermagic, the game is often over once they get the first untap trigger (since the first spell they cast gives them mana to defend it - so you had best remove it right then during the narrow window).

    It's kinda the reverse though in some ways in that you have to proactively attack their board state to keep them from keeping critical mass of rocks and tap effects -- vs. Prophet you have to stop all the instant speed bullcrap they do after they drop it. So it's easier to attack in some ways, but harder in others.

    -----------------------------------

    Oh hey, I found another doozy in there I wanted to respond to:

    Quote from Dunharrow »

    - PE does absolutely nothing by itself. You need to follow-up with a spell to do anything with it. Meaning, it is not a good play if you have 5 mana. You need more mana or you give your opponents a whole turn cycle to deal with it. Next, if you have no mana dorks or mana rocks, PE is not broken. As creatures and artifacts are the two easiest permanents to destroy, I do not believe that, on average, people have enough of these permanents to go off. Finally, you play PE specifically to combo off. It is like High Tide. The percentage of EDH players who want to combo off is relatively low. This is why most of us do not see PE very often.



    Now see these quotes from the PoK thread and see why I think there's a lot of alignment here :p


    This is a 5 mana card that produces no mana draws no cards doesn't tutor has no etb litteraly does nothing

    Prophet by itself is not a must answer. With a board and a card advantage engine it needs to die the turn it was played. A T2 PoK from Land, Manavault, Land isn't a threat, yet. A T5 PoK with Mystic Remora or Survival out is a different story, the game will end.

    Its super powerful.. but its only an enabler. It doesn't do a huge amount alone it requires something else for it to abuse.

    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Yeah, so I think the issue with PE is fundamentally is that it's not so good that casuals don't play it and ruin games with accidental combos. That plus it being a really strong and fairly accessible combo enabler in a lot of decks means you see it in a lot of 75% decks. And then it's also playable in CEDH.

    Being both competitive and casual makes it even worse than POK for me, when you combine in how much more annoying it is to remove at instant speed in comparison (and how much less punishing it is when you do so in most cases).

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    And for a little more exegesis on my favorite quote from the Prophet thread:

    If we look at a statistical breakdown of the commander metagame we can see that PoK is in the top 20 creatures of all commander beating out many monocolor bombs that are considered staples, such as Deadeye Navigator, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastadon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Woodfall Primus. You are more likely to see a PoK in a random opponents deck then any of the cards listed.


    I did some more prevalence research by the way. At the time PoK was running rampant, it was in the vicinity of the 20th most played creature in EDH and it was the only multicolored creature to be there.

    I give you the 20th most played creature in EDH today:
    Xenagos, God of Revels https://edhrec.com/cards/xenagos-god-of-revels

    It is in 13% of decks it can go in and a total of 5600 decks out of 44878 decks.

    The closest comparison to it (the next most common UG creature) is Prime Speaker Zegana) in 6561 of 53567 decks (at 23rd).

    So for all of you "prophet was in every UG decK!!!" people it is extremely likely that Prophet was in around 7000-10000 of 54000 decks.

    It was probably in fewer decks than Paradox Engine is in now, though its prevalence rate is higher because it's UG specific vs. being able to be played in any deck.

    So the next time you feel the urge to say "Prophet was played way more than Paradox Engine!" This is almost certainly incorrect.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on The State of Modern Thread (B&R 20/05/2019)
    Wizards almost always bans the older card. See: every ban forever, no matter how dumb

    (Treasure Cruise/Dig the only examples I can think of)
    Posted in: Modern
  • posted a message on I need a mediocre commander/deck
    Kind of a meta note about the thread but:

    Casuals do not like it when you steal and play their cards, by and large, and doing that as a theme is a damn good way to annoy people Smile

    I would seriously stay away from that type of theme. It's not something people want to play with multiple times for sure.

    (Speaking from experience here btw:))
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Thanks. Here's the only SCD I can find for PoK:
    https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/607230-prophet-of-kruphix


    Such gems as:


    Quit being a crybaby and kill it. Yes it's strong but it's really no different than Deadeye Navigator, another highly complained about card. Just kill it. If you can't then you need to consider your deckbuilding strategy. (With mod note for flaming)

    Whenever I play Prophet, nothing really changes much. Sure, I get extra mana and my stuff untaps, but my opponents are usually more solitaire-like with their decks, so it mostly acts as just "And untap" each turn.

    Prophet isn't particularly durable. In fact, there's no color that can't take care of it.

    PoK in EDH reminds me a little of Tarmogoyf in that removal dies to it. It's a card that forces your opponents to react instead of playing pro-actively, which is phenomenal against decks that have low levels of interaction. Also, forcing out removal for a 2/3 is great when you are sitting on a wincon in your hand that you're afraid will get blown up

    At this point I have accepted that it rarely survives the turn and is more removal bait than useful card. Having said this the one time it lands and sticks you're on to a winner.

    because i run a full suite of spot removal and play magic both proactively and reactively. I realize that I'm not playing solitaire and need to interact with my opponent's deck.

    If a table cant band together to kill a measley 2/3 with no built in protection, then they were destined to lose anyways. If your deck doesnt have answers to a measley 2/3 with no built in protection, then it was destined to lose anyways. There are MUCH scarier threats that can hit the battlefield than a Prophet of Kruphix. You need to build your decks accordingly or risk being blown out by them.

    Power level aside, I find the play pattern it creates to be very annoying. You can't just say "I'm done. You're turn." You say that and then you and the players who has the next turn have to look at the player with PoK and be like "Well, Can I go now or do you have stuff?" and this happens at the end of every turn as long as the card is out. It's tedious and annoying on a Chaos Moon level and it's in ever single Simic/x deck, at least nobody plays Chaos Moon.

    I despise this card. Sometimes it will be answered immediately - but when its not, it capitalizes the majority of the time available for everyone in the game.

    PoK is a card that completely centralizes the game because it is either "steal/clone it" or "kill it before I get buried in advantage" for every player.

    Its super powerful.. but its only an enabler. It doesn't do a huge amount alone it requires something else for it to abuse.

    Maybe the solution is to unban other tempting Bribery targets? The recurring theme of Commander seems to be that green gets a card that all the blue players want to steal, and the green card gets banned so they can't. Ban bribery so that once PoK is banned, we don't have threads on how all the metas have warped into three blue players racing to bribery the green player's Courser of Kruphix or something.

    To me its most impressive power has been its ability to avoid the banlist. Like what's up with that?

    There are so many broken things in this format. This has a fragile body, requires two colors to be played, and doesn't actually win the game.

    I hate Dead-Eye much more. It is monocolor, wins the game and is quite hard to remove once it's soulbonded.

    As has been said multiple times, Prophet is the enabler, not the killer. It was the Momir Vig that got out of hand. It was the cards drawn from Zegana that swung the game in that player's favor.

    I'm a bit sick of hearing people complain about this card, TBH. (Editorial comment: I died at this one, deja vu much?)

    Find a group that wants to play the same kind of games you do, and understand that if you play with someone new, you have to be prepared for anything.

    (this is me) I'm kinda 60/40 in favor of banning Prophet at this point but not because of power primarily, more the undesirable board state that it tends to create. It's really not fun to play with or against.

    (And someone telling me I'm a whiner for not liking the board states): The phrase "unfun board state" is going to be the death of the format. House rules are one of the supposed cores of the format, and house rules should weed out house problems. (Editorial comment: Dead enough for ya yet chief?)

    Prophet, in my meta, is strong, sure, but certainly nothing like the other two [Sylvan Primordial and primeval titan]. Prophet requires me to have a hand to be useful. The others did not.

    I commonly cast PoK and fail to win - even if it doesn't immediately eat removal.

    At least until people decide Seedborn Muse needs to be banned, too, because people are never going to stop being douchebags with cards, and for some reason, a large number of the casual Magic base derives fun at the lack of fun they can force others to have, thus causing the vocal minority to be even louder. Turn 2-4 Iona when you're playing monocolor is so much more unfun, IMO.


    If we look at a statistical breakdown of the commander metagame we can see that PoK is in the top 20 creatures of all commander beating out many monocolor bombs that are considered staples, such as Deadeye Navigator, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastadon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Woodfall Primus. You are more likely to see a PoK in a random opponents deck then any of the cards listed. (Editorial comment: I really found this one interesting because it shows that my prevalence estimates are fairly close to correct - PoK was only in the top 20 creatures, and the few creatures referenced such as Hoofdaddy and Deadeye are both hovering around 10% today; so it's unlikely PoK was much higher than 10%)

    if prophet resolves and the person playing it is even remotely competent at magic, the game is over. Prophet is hands down the most broken card in the format, it is essentially the equivalent of taking four turns to each other player's single turn, the card should not have been printed (editorial: Mmmm, hyperbole)

    I'm guessing people on the committee play the card, that's why it's never been touched. Probably tooth and nail too. (Editorial comment: Wow, the more things change Smile

    Oh man...mods can we please get this thread either locked or merged with the ban list thread. This isn't even a conversation anymore.

    This is a 5 mana card that produces no mana draws no cards doesn't tutor has no etb litteraly does nothing before being open to any instant removal for god sakes it dies to a lightning bolt.. If you don't have the counter to stop a prophet be glad your not aginst a real broken card like doomsday doomsday + any cmc 1 cabtrip kills the table for the same mana cost as this slow creature based enabler.

    Prophet by itself is not a must answer. With a board and a card advantage engine it needs to die the turn it was played. A T2 PoK from Land, Manavault, Land isn't a threat, yet. A T5 PoK with Mystic Remora or Survival out is a different story, the game will end. PoK is one among many 'must answer' cards. I don't feel like it sits that high on the list. Hermit Druid, Ad Nauseam, Necro, Doomsday, Tooth and Nail, and C Sphinx are all higher up in my book

    I play at more than just my own table. FNM, etc., gives me legitimate cause for concern regarding a card's legality.

    The prophet isn't the most broken card in the format however, I believe it is the most commonly broken card in the format. What I mean by that is, it is the card that is ruining the largest number of games. It seems like everybody and their grandmother has a copy of PoK and a large number of them think it's a good idea to put it into their decks.



    Mods - apologies if this summary of the previous thread is too much C&P for this topic, but I think it's really salient stuff. Prophet is a stellar example of a card where people were very divided (even me, with my very balanced commentary if I do say so myself).

    People made literally the exact same arguments against it and for it in a lot of cases.

    The biggest difference is that we don't see the same level of cloning/bribing as we saw with prophet, and of course the reason for that is that PE is a somewhat narrower card. But not narrow enough in my opinion:) Its power level ceiling is much higher but it's not quite busted enough to join dramatic scepter in CEDH only town.

    The other major parallel I see with PE and Prophet is the kind of line of thinking of:

    ~"it's just a broken enabler that enables what you choose to do with it"

    How that plays out is quite a bit different. PE is far more likely to straight up combo out, and far less likely to durdle out during other people's turns. But that is a major parallel; there's kind of a venn diagram happening where PE and Prophet both overlap with ruining the game and comboing like this:

    Too many circles to also add "And a fun time was had by someone other than just the guy playing it" but suffice it to say it's a small sad circle for both :p

    EDIT:

    For some prevalence numbers, I went through the comparison of EDhrec numbers similar to this quote from the previous thread on Prophet


    If we look at a statistical breakdown of the commander metagame we can see that PoK is in the top 20 creatures of all commander beating out many monocolor bombs that are considered staples, such as Deadeye Navigator, Craterhoof Behemoth, Terastadon, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, and Woodfall Primus. You are more likely to see a PoK in a random opponents deck then any of the cards listed.


    On the list of artifacts in the last 2 years, Paradox Engine is 59th on the top 100. That is insaaaane. Prophet broke top 20 on creatures, but let's remember that creatures are way worse in EDH than spells and artifacts almost invariably. The threshold for a creature to be played is pretty huge, and at that time most of the creature decks were UGx - these days most decks will be playing a ton of artifacts with or without paradox engine.

    The artifacts list is rather skewed as well because things like Fist of the Suns sit at 18th or so on the back of being in 18% of 5-color decks (derp) and Sunforger being in 12% of WRx decks. If you correct for purely actually mono colored artifacts, PE comes in:


    1. sol ring
    2. lightning greaves
    3. swiftfoot boots
    4. commander's sphere
    5. solemn simulacrum
    6. skullclamp
    7. chromatic lantern
    8. mind stone
    9. darksteel ingot
    10. gilded lotus
    11. fellwar stone
    12. thought vessel
    13. sensei's divining top
    14. thran dynamo
    15. ashnod's altar
    16. burnished hart
    17. worn powerstone
    18. hedron archive
    19. mana crypt
    20. caged sun
    21. mana vault
    22. whispersilk cloak
    23. expedition map
    24. everflowing chalice
    25. sword of the animist
    26. nevinyrral's disk
    27. panharmonicon
    28. wayfarer's bauble
    29. steel hellkite
    30. paradox engine

    A fairly respectable 30th.




    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Buffsam89 »
    UG Creature decks with a high volume of ETBs were the ones that played Prophet.


    No real horse in this race, but this is not correct. People played UGx decks because prophet existed. Full stop. If your deck wasn’t built to abuse Prophet, you changed your deck. I did, and many, many other decks that I encountered did too.

    That was the problem. If you were playing UGx, and you weren’t playing prophet, it was wrong. Much like not playing PrimeTime with G. I could probably dig it up, but I’m fairly certain the RC even stayed as such in the ban announcement or just before.

    That is certainly not the case with Paradox Engine, you’ve even said so yourself.

    On a side note, the problem with “discussions” like these, much like that in the Coalition Victory thread, is that personal anecdotes often get paraded as facts, which in turn spreads misinformation. That’s my problem with these threads. Healthy discussion is fine, but until something actually changes, and not new cards being printed, then there isn’t much to discuss that hasn’t already been discussed ad nauseam. There are actual sources of real information out there that is relevant here, bringing personal anecdotes into the matter usually means you are in the minority and trying to sway others, which really just Missy’s the waters.

    Strong card? Sure is. Does it belong in every deck? Heck no.


    So I'm not 100% sure what you're saying here, but people played UGx creature decks long before Prophet and continued to do so long after prophet.

    There were were plenty of UGx decks that didn't want to play a lot of creatures. And Seedborn Muse was significantly stronger in those decks if they even wanted that effect. I'm trying to think back to those days, but in general the metagame was quite a bit less refined. But there were plenty of BUG control decks and have been for most of Magic's history, and they didn't really want Prophet because they wanted clean boards.

    The case in retrospect against Prophet is often somewhat hyperbolic. But it made a specific subset of UG decks abominable, not all UG decks. It did tend to centralize UG creature based strategies but it was not an autoinclude except in creature decks.

    Paradox Engine is rapidly becoming the same way, which is that it's an autoinclude in a certain subset of decks - large volume of mana rocks or mana creatures, and you should probably be playing Paradox engine.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I take issue with your comments about anecdotes. No one in this thread has ever said:
    "Here is my anecdote, therefore Paradox Engine is broken." That is a literal strawman you're setting up here with statements like:

    There are actual sources of real information out there that is relevant here, bringing personal anecdotes into the matter usually means you are in the minority and trying to sway others, which really just Missy’s the waters.


    I believe that anecdotes about how a card is actually affecting games is important. But I have said myself that this is a small part of the story. There is a mammoth case for bannning Paradox Engine independently of anecdotes. No one thinks me having a couple bad games with PE is justification for banning.

    With Prophet of Kruphix, I believe that the stories of how it actually saw play factored into a good understanding of just why it was not fun as a card. It becomes a lot more real when you see what it's actually doing -- someone dropped PoK, then someone cloned it, then someone stole the original one, then everyone took turns taking extra sub-turns in everyone else's upkeep until no one gave a ***** anymore, etc. etc. Someone cast Prophet, untapped and answered everything until they combo'd off on the last end step, sometimes winning a game of archenemy by being able to play as much mana as everyone else combined.

    Stories have value in discussions as long as we aren't trying to make them the argument. When I tell you a story about PE, my point is for you to understand just how centralizing it is when I see it -- whenever someone casts a PE in games I have seen it in, the game immediately becomes 100% about that resolved PE.

    Far from muddying the waters, I think understanding what the card actually does is important, on both sides. No one threw a fit about Cryogen saying he saw it once at SCGCon and it did nothing - I certainly welcome hearing that, because I'm open to the idea that my experience is not the same as everyone else's.

    Edit: What I would love to do is review the old SCD threads about Prophet of Kruphix. Does anyone have access to these? I feel like the arguments back and forth are almost identical in some ways. There were tons of anecdotes on both sides, mostly with stuff like:


    FOR
    -Prophet took over the whole game and guy won a game of archenemy
    -Prophet was cloned by 3 of 4 players and then someone combo'd out

    AGAINST
    -I saw it, I killed it, the tempo blowout won the game
    -Saw it, everyone ganged up on the prophet player and he lost


    Edit 2: for historical reference here is the Prophet of Kruphix ban thread from the MTGcommander forums:

    http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16793&p=181084&hilit=prophet#p181084


    (I would really recommend skimming that entire thread - it is pure gold).



    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Random Deck Discussion: Zahrim - Savra [6/23]
    My first instinct was to say "noooo" to the depths combo since it's historically been so bad for me, but I haven't ever had a depths deck quite as controlling as this. My suspicion is that by the time you're ready to start dropping depths you will have Loam online and you'll likely have ground your opponents out of resources, so Depths could wind up being an efficient finisher for you. I'll bookmark your thread so I can hear how it all goes Smile

    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Yarok, Panharmonicon on a Stick (Let's Brew!)
    There are a bunch of enchantments with ETB effects other than constellation, or that would benefit from blinking, or both.



    And there are tons of great enchantments w Yarok.


    Not 100% sure how cloudform works but I think it probably does hehe :p
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Sell me on a probably UGx goodstuffish commander that asks questions instead of answering until it combos
    Yeah, I've liked it so far. Got pretty much the reactions I expected which is "Well, yeah, we didn't stop you from cloning avenger and playing 7 lands so we get what we get."

    Here's what I built in case anyone who helpfully posted was interested in the outcome Smile

    https://deckbox.org/sets/2383669

    And unfortunately I need to get another copy of Intuition. Bleh.

    I'll probably make a post in the decklist forum I guess after I get done testing. Really appreciate everyone's input.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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