I've noticed a worrying thing that might be a trend of people trying to shut down ban discussion with phrases like, even in SCD threads:
"this has been discussed to death"
"I'm sick of hearing about this"
"can we just stop talking about this?"
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
The last thing we need is people going around shutting down discussions with things other than strong counterarguments. There's content police out there called the moderation team. Let them do their job
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Jun 24, 2019Pokken posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer BanlistPosted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
Jun 24, 2019yeah brought back is definitely good. I am sure there are a ton of things I am not thinking of it can do.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Being so accessible with muddle/seeker is strong. There're ways you can start derpy loops with mistveil plains too.
It even lets you double ramp with fetchlands - fetch twice, pop this and you ramp 2.
Very powerful effect. Being able to protect your walkers is good, being able to protect blasting station is good.
Interestingly I am also borderline on whether Tale's end is strong enough to play. That is a lot of effect for 1U - counter target walker, paradox engine, fetchland, etc. I think it would be a very good choice for a 4th counterspell for decks wanting more than I play.
Jun 23, 2019I think you misunderstood what I was saying about prevalence in terms of 'deck types that want it' -Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
UG Creature decks with a high volume of ETBs were the ones that played Prophet.
Decks with a high volume of creatures or artifacts with tap effects are the ones that play Paradox Engine.
My opinion based on how I remember playing through the meta, is that Paradox engines are as common in the types of decks that they belong in as Prophet of Kruphix was in decks that it belonged in. I played a lot then and while Prophet was quite present, it was not being played in every UG deck - usually a deck wanted 30+ creatures and a high percentage of them to generate value.
I think people regularly overstate just how common it was; I would be very surprised if it approached 10% prevalence in UGx decks during its reign.
At the time PoK was popular it also happened that UGx creature value decks were pretty popular, as the variety of commanders in general was quite low. Wizards has seriously changed the meta of commander over the years. Creature value toolbox is not nearly as common or as powerful as it used to be.
And finally, Paradox engine being in 1 in 18 decks is far different than Prophet being in even 1 in 10 decks it could be in; Paradox Engine can be in *any* deck, not just the 25% or so of decks that are UGx (which are already skewed hard toward creature value decks). The fact that Paradox engine is in 6% of all decks is frigging mind blowing to me. How does that not alarm you that a colorless card that people decry as "just a CEDH combo derp" is in 6% of the decks posted on Edhrec?
I feel the need to add a clarifying point here which is that I do not think that the fairly high prevalence is the sole factor impacting a ban decision. It mostly relates to the "omnipresence" part of "problematic casual omnipresence."
I do think that being as commonly played as cards like Aetherflux Reservoir and Panharmonicon which are unarguably very popular cards puts paradox engine in the running for omnipresence.
It is high on both measures of omnipresence
* Gameplan-aligned omnipresence - Where the card is good in your deck. From the measures on Edhrec, this card has an absurd level of gameplan aligned omnipresence. Decks where it is very good are going to play it over half the time.
* General omnipresence - The card's position as a part of the metagame at large. Card is half as common as Sensei's Divining Top, more common than Chrome Mox and in as many decks total as cards like necropotence and worldy tutor - It is definitely out there.
Through years of discussion we've established that this is only a small sliver of what goes into banning a card. But I think this makes a case that pardaox engine
1) Has a rating on the problematic casual omnipresence scale that is >0
2) Is demonstrably increasing
Reminder on the problematic casual omnipresence verbiage in case--
Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect. This does not include cards which are part of a specific two-card combination — there are too many of those available in the format to usefully preclude — but may include cards which have numerous combinations with other commonly-played cards.
I would hope it goes without saying that I completely reject your attempt to moderate me (and this thread in general) - but apparently it doesn't, so consider it said. If a mod needs me to stop posting in this thread they can tell me. If I feel like I have something new to say I will say it.
Jun 23, 2019This deck is like a who's who of golgari goodstuff.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Savra is basically Grave Pact in the command zone in this deck and I think that's probably the most BG rock midrange thing you can play in the command zone short of Deathrite or Pernicious Deed.
There's a lot of overlap conceptually with the previous deck (karador) we reviewed so some of what I have to say will probably overlap:
* Green Sun's Zenith plus Varolz, the Scar Striped plus Dryad Arbor would be a pretty solid set of changes that would improve consistency and functionally give you +2 sac outlets. I think Varolz's ability actually coincides with the gameplan even more than Karador, since you're probably fine to go ahead and eat some of your own dudes to make a 15/15 or something.
* Any deck that plays Genesis and Life from the Loam should consider playing entomb, and only not be playing it for a very good reason (e.g. desire to minimize tutors). As a side note, I think this deck would benefit from buried Alive enough to play it -- the combination of getting 3 dredge pieces, or genesis + plaguecrafter + etc. is very good. If it were my deck I most likely would just play Entomb.
* I'm not sure Yawgmoth, Thran Physician has enough support. I might be missing something. Maybe he's strong enough on his own too.
* I am not sure I would play Ostone in this deck. It's absolutely fine but it's not particularly strong. This feels like a deck where you can get by with just ench/artifact sweepers and then beat their planeswalkers to death, but I might be wrong.
* The lands matter package overall feels a little constrained in this deck. Like you'd maybe want to have a few more extra land drop effects or something - burgeoning, exploration type stuff, but there's not a lot of room for them. I don't know have any actual advice there just a comment.
* This is actually a weird deck that I think might benefit from *more* non-sweeper removal for enchantments and artifacts especially. Maybe like Pir's whim or Broken Bond or something? Whim has been exceptional for me so far. The way this deck looks to play out it feels like your edict spam will keep creatures in check. I could see going down a sweeper or two and up on stuff like Acidic Slime or Thrashing Brontodon.
Speaking of Brontodon, I think it is really a clutch card in this deck. triggers edicts, doesn't require a sac outlet to reuse with Volrath's + genesis, and has a more respectable body than rec sage. It has been reallllly good in my gitrog deck. I have made more than one person scoop to Volrath's+Brontodon. Build your own really crappy aura shards
Hope some of that helps. I really like the deck and have played a number of iterations with a lot of similar cards (including skullbriar and gitrog).
Jun 23, 2019I think if you want to stay away from 5c "play out the same way" decks you're going to need to have most of your strategy be separate from the commander. Najeela might be boring on that account as her main design space is to cast her and attack as many times as possible with herPosted in: Commander (EDH)
That's one thing I do like about Ramos very much as he's more of a ramp commander than a tutor/draw commander.
Jun 23, 2019I have seen a few cool 5 color decks over the years:Posted in: Commander (EDH)
* Ramos Enchantress - guy just used Ramos as a mana engine, you cast a couple enchantments and draw a bunch of cards then pull ramos' counters and windmill slam a few more
* Najeela warrior tribal - It's pretty cool. you can focus on the infinite attack step combos if you like, or not, she's just super strong.
* Child of Alara counter lands deck - he just played child as a sweeper in the command zone and made the game go long with every single mana battery land he could play and then played huge bombs.
* Scion of the Ur Dragon dragon tribals Lands - played all the extra land drop and land tutor effects, played huge dragons but also had the alternate Scion voltron kill option
Jun 23, 2019So I have one floating around but my thought was more to try to focus on stuff that lets me derp with lands, but it might be better now that I have more +1/+1 counter theme going on.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I might also try to fit a Gavony Township in here now that I'm doing that too.
Jun 23, 2019Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion ForumQuote from Onering »
Mox Diamond and Grim Monolith are on the Reserve List, so that probably has something to do with it, especially grim mono.
Sure, although I think you got your pricing backwards as Mox Diamond is like 2x the price of Grim's (well more like 50% now, nuuuuuuuts).
Point is that if you watch the prevalence, PE is rapidly becoming accepted as the engine of choice for its decks in a very similar (but slower) way than Prophet of Kruphix did.
I would bet, actually, if you compared "Deck types that want it" that PE is close to Prophet from a prevalence perspective -- and if it's even close it's only because PE requires a very expensive manabase to be extra broken (~700 bucks of crypt, mox, chrome, metalworker, grim, mana vault). But that analysis would be quite difficult to perform unfortunately.
Jun 23, 2019Yeah it's definitely a reasonably strong card, nice at having another way to get miracles back in your deck if you're into that too.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
I could see a more beatdown aggro-control version of this deck with nothing but good creatures - get rid of all the support junk like Mesa, swords, anthems of any sort, and just play strong beaters and a control package.
Even if you started from my list you could cut:
- Sword of feast and famine
- oblivion stone
- blasting station
- umezawa's jitte
- trophy mage
- sacred mesa
- body double
- leonin relic-warder
- Containment priest
- supreme verdict
And add some stuff like
- eerie interlude
- arcane denial
- settle the wreckage
- draining whelk
- God-eternal Kefnet
- avacyn, angel of hope
- emeria shepherd
- emeria angel
And start focusing more on the beaters and instant interaction I guess.
I don't think it's for me personally but I could see it.
- Sword of feast and famine
Jun 23, 2019It's really more about how you build it. My atraxa build is surely not top tier, and Marchesa is absolutely not top tier at anything. Not being blue or green kinda rules that outPosted in: Commander (EDH)
Basically any general built to win is going to crush casuals though so you've gotta constrain your spikey impulses to build something tamer.
I'd suggest that you might have more fun building a decent commander with bad colors or weaker cards.
Playing in casual metas you usually need to play lots of creatures if you want to play at their pace because otherwise they'll beat you down with their craw wurms and stuff while you durdle.
Jun 23, 2019Thanks for the response!Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
Hydra's not bad, I decided to try out realmseekers since i needed my weathered wayfarer for another deck anywho - little more bomby. My thought is mostly on the land front that what I'll try adjusting first is the number of draw effects.
Treasure mage was mostly the only way I could think of to get contagion engine while keeping the body count up, so that's what it's doing. I put the other two expensive artifacts in there so there's always something for it to get if I already have engine. But even with probably 10 sources of proliferate other than Atraxa including treasure mage, I often don't get one - so if I cut TM it'd probably need to be for another proliferating target.
Graft creatures seem like a pretty reasonable inclusion; there're quite a few good ones, esp. the one that steals dudes. But I don't think the deck can absorb any more ETB tapped lands like Llanowar Reborn. It's horrid enough already hehe.
Trinket mage is actually actively stupidly good in this deck. It has a lto of targets:
I don't think i would ever want to use it to get an artifact land and a not one of those - if I have 3 mana I can cast a cornucopia on 1 so not even really needed for fixing.
Jun 23, 2019Pokken posted a message on [[Official]] General Discussion of the Official Multiplayer BanlistPalinchron dies to getting removed while his ability is on the stack as long as the player has <11 mana, or two removal spells with 11. Enter the infinite dies to less (though I did see it get notion thief'd once), but it also costs a lot more than CV -- and has more deckbuilding consequences in the sense that you have to be able to win from library after spending 11 mana on a spell.Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
That said I don't think coalition victory is a big deal and don't understand the arguments against it from the existing banlist criteria perspective.
But the unbanning threshold is completely different from the banning threshold;
The banning criteria asks - does it do some, many or all of these things and to what degree, because those things are against our stated goals for the format.
The *unbanning* criteria is emphatically not - do we think it will still do the same things that caused it to get banned to the degree it did before?
The unbanning criteria surely includes at the very least one additional criteria of:
Is there a risk that we have to ban this again?
And I feel quite strongly there is another hidden unban criteria of:
Do we think this card adds anything to the format, and what does it add?
It's the latter one that I think is why coalition victory will likely never be unbanned. Who is this card catering to? No one who wants it unbanned even is like "Maan I am so excited to play that card, it's so cool!"
It's almost the same for me as for some of the dumb bombs we have now, like Enter the Infinite and Expropriate. If those cards were banned, I don't think they would ever get unbanned because they don't really add anything.
The two most recent unbans of Metalworker and Protean Hulk (to a lesser extent than Metalworker perhaps) both have seen quite a lot of play in not unreasonable ways to my estimation.
Metalworker especially I think was a pretty cool unban. It's unfortunate it's on the RL so it got expensive, but I think it has a neat place in medium-fair artifact goodstuff decks, which is certainly what I did with mine when I played it.
Exactly no one would ever be excited to see Coalition Victory. Winning on the stack for 8 mana is just annoying.
Jun 22, 2019I have two Casual decks I am currently brewing, one is my Atraxa counter lands +1/+1 counters deck (which you can see in my sig) and the other is Queen Marchesa human tribal.Posted in: Commander (EDH)
Playing weak color combos is another way to go about it; stuff like Brion Stoutarm or whatever. Most Boros decks are gonna be fairly fair just because the color combo sucks.
You gotta be careful not to play too much good stuff because weaker decks will often just auto lose to a Consecrated Sphinx.
Jun 22, 2019I made this deck born out of a challenge to myself to play a non-traditional manabase with no fetchlands and also to use counter lands with Atraxa's ability.Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
This deck is bad.
But I like it. It's fun, fairly strong, and can win games even at decent tables with a little bit of luck. It has a good number of mana sinks and can make a truly comical amount of mana without needing any real gimmicks like mana Reflection or similar.
I mostly wanted to write about it a bit in case someone else had a similar derpy desire with Atraxa, as a resource.
The goal of the deck is to cast Atraxa on turn 3 or 4 every game and immediately start proliferating stuff. It's...faaaairly consistent at that, but the mana is quite iffy and you have to mulligan if that's not going to happen. But with all the rocks and lands that can make any color, it's fairly consistent at making UBWG on turn 4 and will do it on 3 sometimes.
I don't play it regularly to have it hyper tuned, basically just a pile of cards I wanted to play at this point with a few that really don't belong (looking at you Throne of Geth and Weathered wayfarer). But there's a lot of neat tech that is pretty fun to play with and a metric ton of cards I do not normally play like Lux Cannon and Orochi Hatchery and Iceberg and Wickerbough Elder.
There's a lot of things I am looking to re-think in the deck, along the lines of:
* The removal balance needs a lot of work - probably need about 2-3 more instant speed removal spells and/or counterspells
* The mana really is soft for playing Hour and Cleansing Nova
* The land package in general is something I think might need some more support, ways to get more lands into play that are novel. I might try to slot a few budgety things like Realm seekers in there.
* Deck sometimes floods out so I think the balance of bombs and card draw may be too low
That's it. I'd love to hear of card ideas you have that I haven't considered, or any general thoughts you have on the deck. So far the only real issue I've had is that sometimes Atraxa herself is just too powerful, but overall it feels pretty decently matched against most actual casual decks.
From an aesthetic standpoint, I am trying to do some general things here that influence the overall design:
* Play as many things as can take advantage of Atraxa meaningfully as I can
* Minimize excessive tutoring
* Avoid playing traditional goodstuff cards like hoofdad and tooth and nail and stuff like that
* make sure I still have a decent gameplan if atraxa bites it
* play a lot of creatures so I'm not getting randomly beat to death early for not having dudes
* no planeswalkers
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