@Eternaldragon09 - I tested a black splash myself a while ago, though I wasn't running Cranial Extraction, I did run Extirpate, which is clearly a bit different but similar.
Here's the issue I had with the black splash:
1. Thoughtseize was worse than Spell Pierce, so may as well keep Pierce. No biggy
2. Assassin's Trophy isn't that great
That sounds a bit dumb, but the issue is that it's average in every match, but never great. Like if Trophy is taking out Damping Sphere or Aether Vial, or anything bolt-able, Abrade is actually better because it doesn't give them a land. If it takes out an artifact/enchantment, then rec sage is better because its easier to cast and leaves a body behind.
The beauty with assassin's trophy is the flexibility, obviously. But, it is harder to cast than even Abrade, though that's pretty marginal. But, when Trophy was just being average for me every single turn, no matter what - I started thinking about other "destroy whatever you want" cards. I went to a basically mono-green deck (dropping red and black) and ran Beast Within. Although it costs 1 more and leaves a 3/3 behind, it's significantly easier to cast, to the point where you can run a 4th and possibly 5th basic forest. That gives you extra game vs moon, path and field of ruin for a start.
Secondly, its just a castable card. I felt Beast Within was very comparable in power level, with occasions where I'd prefer Trophy and occasions where it was significantly better.
Once I figured out all that, I just came to the conclusion that I don't want trophy or beast within. Once/if you decide that you don't want Trophy OR Thoughtseize, you're now saying "do I want to drop my splash colour JUST for cranial extraction". I think the answer is no.
That's not to say you can't run black or that even Edgar was wrong (brave man to say that). It's just that my testing suggested it wasn't very good. The beauty of amulet is that you can kinda get away with whatever you play, the core 60ish (across the 75) cards are that good. Just my thoughts on black. I'd almost always prefer Red or White.
@twakatsonic - I think my plan vs Control is just to deploy as many threats as possible. Vannifar is obviously a threat, as is Voice of Resurgence. Picking them back up with Witness and potentially saving them or getting more value with resto's seems pretty solid too. Being able to play on end step will be useful as well.
I honestly think my 1st decklist is pretty well set vs control, but I would likely sideboard out a few mana dorks and probably the scryb ranger + spellskite (since 'skite doesn't really matter when you are on a value train). I can't see too many spots where the opponent taps out and doesn't deal with vannifar, so I don't need to commit to combo. I want to bring in more must-answer or sticky threats, but I'd like to avoid the GY. As a result, I think I'll just run some tireless trackers / thragtusks etc. It's also pretty reasonable to tempo out control by end-stepping a deceiver, running out an avalance rider then flicker it with resto. That'll be my aim!
If I'm playing the all-in combo deck, I just want to bring in cards that can protect the combo as best as possible, which is likely spell pierce, plus any value creatures I have laying around.
@zyrgul_CZ - oh there was nothing harsh, nothing personal! Just sharing ideas Also, I think Cataclysmic Gearhulk should be in the SB of any Eldritch Evo decks we come up with, so I need to add it to mine.
I think there's a couple of routes to try out, and everyone is going to have different opinions on the best starting point. Only testing and actually playing the cards will tell us for sure. But, theory-crafting is always fun
The Sam Pardee list looks awful to me. For a start, I think Sun Titan is a better Woodland Bellower for the most part. Second, because he's running Bellower, he's running Bounding Krasis, which is also pretty bad when compared to deceiver (which can tap down lands on Turn 2).
The idea of running Postmortem Lunge is an interesting 1, but 4 copies looks excessive. The deck also looks like it does absolute 0 without Vannifar itself. I'm also a bit baffled by the Phantasmal Image? There's no combo to speak of with it, though it can be a way to combo with a 1-drop + 2-drop if you have no ranger left over (though that's not true if the ranger is in the GY, since you can get rallier).
In a nutshell, his deck has no interaction, and only has 1 way to give vannifar haste first time around (postmortem lunge is no good when you first try to combo). As a result, it's VERY unlikely to combo on turn 3, meaning on the draw, you need everyone you face to be slower than turn 5. The deck has almost 0 interaction on its way.
I can't imagine Pardee's list doing much, but I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!!!
I'm going to start by sharing my list, because I think that might answer some questions from Zyrgul_CZ, Headminerve (not questions as such, just a counter point), Sgears:
Lands
2 Breeding Pool
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Chord of Calling
2 Path to Exile
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Deceiver Exarch
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Knight of Autumn
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Prime Speaker Vannifar
1 Renegade Rallier
3 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Spellskite
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Roots
//Sideboard
1 Avalanche Riders
3 Damping Sphere
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Tireless Tracker
Hopefully you can see how I'm at least TRYING to build the deck. There's a few things I might try to squeeze into the sideboard (rending volley and possibly an extra avalanche riders) but you can see the idea hopefully.
The plan for me is to try and grind in Game 1. So @zyrgul / headminerve - I'm running multiple Knight of Autumns to increase the chance of drawing it. There's a lot of sticky creatures to help chord be live earlier, and there's enough disruptive creatures to at least keep people off balance. You can use Deceiver to tap down lands, Knight (2) for whatever mode is necessary, Scooze (2), Spellskite and kinda voice/walls specifically against agro. Add in the Resto Angels to reuse the key effects, and you have a way to slow down the faster decks whilst developing your own game plan (plus path). Now, I'm not saying this makes us favoured against KCI/Storm, because it doesn't. But what it does mean is that there's a chance to steal Game 1 without it ruining your game against agro/control/midrange. Postboard, I have a tonne of stuff I can bring in to help (ravenous trap, remorseful cleric, damping sphere and eidolon are all great vs KCI/Storm).
That's the route i'm going to start out on anyway. However, I appreciate there's more than 1 way to skin a cat (weird phrase used in the UK). Here's what I'd play if i were going full-on combo, trying to race everyone.
//Lands
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
The idea here is that you have redundancy thanks to Saheeli Cat, and you have Pod kills on top. If you happen to go T1 Dork, T2 Saheeli, T3 Pod, you'll win on the spot without Kiki (just felidar cat). If you dont have haste for POD, you can combo on Turn 4. It also keeps the old god-hand of T1 Bop, T2 Cobra + Fetch + Rallier + Saheeli + Evo - 7 perfect cards for a turn 2 kill (and your draw step left in hand)!!! Because this list is so combo focused, there's very few value cards or top-end (Shalai is the top end / protection, and that's it). There's plenty of ways to dig with Oath + Oracle, which are all repeatable with Saheeli, Rallier, Kiki + Felidar. Because of this approach, I'm sure Hall of the Bandit Lord is worthwhile, allowing a Turn 3 kill with Pod without needing Saheeli.
The sideboard here is more focused, trying to deal with problematic cards in whatever form they turn up (spell pierce and path dealing with specific 1-ofs). Tracker and Thragtusk are value cards that avoid the GY, so you have a better chance vs UW if they board in RIP. Knights might be wrong here, but I wanted some lifegain in the SB, so they seemed to fit nicely there.
Hope the decklists help share my opinion on the deck... basically, I think it's best to either commit to combo or commit to value, and don't sit somewhere in the middle (e.g. Chord lists with Hippo + Zealous Conscripts). Obviously you then have to build the whole 75 with that in mind.
1 last thing I want to mention... I've seen people writing stuff like "cant come up with a SB until I know how the deck plays". I think that's a load of rubbish! If they deck plays well, you'll need a SB. If it doesn't, well the SB doesn't fix that. What I've been doing as part of the theory-crafting is saying "what cards are weak against deck x", and then going "what would I board in". I've spent a good few hours looking at each MU and trying to fill in the blanks. The numbers in my lists aren't random. It may be that the actual cards themselves are not correct, but the roles should be (e.g. removal for Titi, hate for KCI etc).
@user-23561543 - first of all, because you're from the EU, you've lost all your old posts (this happened to me), and your username. You can make a request to regain some bits, but it's unlikely to work. However, they'll give you the chance to get your username back at least.
I'll add at this point, it happened to me, and because I run the primer, the primer dissapeared for about a week. That's likely why no-one is talking aobut the SCG Winner! The primer wasn't here. I do plan to update the primer soon.
The interesting thing about this list, in my opinion, is that it's actually no quicker than the scout list. If anything, it's slower. Without an amulet, there's no way of resolving a turn 3 titan, because you'll ramp on Turn 3 and go for Through the Breach or just hardcast a titan on Turn 4. That's not that great.
However, there are some upsides. Sometimes you'll just get to through the breach an emrakul on Turn 4, which is significantly better than just casting a titan. You basically win the game on the spot thanks to the annihilator trigger. That's a pretty big upside.
Also, pretend you have Lightning Bolt or Gut Shot... it's almost blank against this deck. I know it's going to get pointed at your head instead, but the point is that a card like Gut Shot can really ruin a scout players day, but that's not the case for Swordtooth and co.
It's very similar to the lotus bloom version of the deck imo, as it focuses on a consistent Turn 4 rather than an explosive combo deck. Both have free wins (hive mind or emrakul) and both blank bolt pretty well.
Ive never been a fan of this style of deck, just because I prefer the midrange feel you get from the stock scout lists from time to time. Its a play preference more than a "this is right or wrong" though. Kudos to Dominic for winning with his list!
zyrgul_CZ - but you've hit the nail on the head there... you want a way to kill on Turn 4 if you untap with Vannifar. But you also want to be able to disrupt in the meantime.
A card like Knight of Autumn is relevant vs hollow one (disenchant), burn (gain life), spirits (aether vial poof or gain 4)... flexible creatures that gain value when they come into play let you pod them without any worries. I honestly think the key is finding the right bullets, and finding them fast enough.
Also remember not every deck is trying to kill you on Turn 3-4. If you are against BGx or UWx, then Vannifar is just another threat they have to deal with. Thats fine. Having cards like Finks, Voice, Witness etc that are a little harder to kill makes you resilient in those MUs.
I'm personally quite optimistic. My list is changing daily even without testing, thanks to this group and the discord.
@thErgonomic - Spellskite is my go-to protection spell. You can cast it BEFORE you cast Vannifar, which is basically all i'm interested in when I'm racing. If my hand is all-in on combo-ing fast (my build isn't really combo focused, but it'll have hands that just have to try race), then I want Spellskite down before I play vannifar. Negate and Shalai fail in that spot imo. I'd rather run Spell Pierce than Negate, though I admittedly run Spell Pierce more than anyone healthy should!
@Sgears - a few thoughts on your list... I'm going to put them in this box because it got tooo long.
I think Hallowed Fountain will likely be better as a 2nd Breeding Pool. The rest of your mana looks good to me, I like the single Township.
I really like how you have incorporated vannifar, evo and chord. They all have unique upside and also their own issues. However, I think the execution might be slightly off. I'll try explain my opinion rather than just give it!
So I'm playing "kiki-chord" this week (in preparation) and so don't have access to POD. However, it runs 3 Evo and 2 Chord. By switching those numbers around, I feel like you've added more clunk and removed some speed. THEN you're adding extra 4 drops in the form of Vannifar. My first recommendation would be to either drop the 3rd chord entirely, or swap it for Evo - otherwise I think your deck might be a little too slow.
I agree that your numbers might be slightly off. We have both recently said how you need to build the deck without the combo in mind, and then just have that as a way to close a game. Because of that, I think the 2nd Deceiver and possibly the 2nd Rallier should be cut. In addition, I always look at Shalai and think "that won't protect my vannifar", and I think there's better things to evo into.
I think Finks is better when you run hippo (since finks can turn into combo kill that way), and you're not running those. I'd like to see both of those finks replaced with more knight of autumn, since its just a slightly more flexible card. It helps you in some of your trickier match-ups.
I don't actually think you have a lot to go grab with your Evo if you sac a 2 or 3 drop. I'm currently testing Pia and Kiran Nalaar as that "combos" nicely with Voice + Evo, and its been great when behind on board or when you just need to deploy as many threats as possible vs control (think it's better than Shalai). I also think your current build could utilise a Reveillark over the 2nd Kiki-Jiki. It'll act as a combo piece some amount of the time, and the rest of the time, lets you play a value game.
On Voice of Resurgence - I think it's great vs anything not combo. So, it probably is worth a slot. I could easily see it becoming Wall of Omens if you're worried about hitting your land drops though.
It's also possible that you want some removal MD. Knight covers most bases, but when you're playing a more midrange/controlling strategy, I think Deputy of Detention becomes a bit of a liability. It may be that a Glorybringer is worth considering, or perhaps just some MD Path.
I realise there's quite a few changes that I've suggested there. But, what it comes down to is reducing the reliance on comboing, increasing the toolbox options, and reducing the clunkiness. If I were taking your list for a spin, this is what i'd probably do:
-1 Chord +1 Witness
-1 Kiki-Jiki +1 Reveillark
-1 Deceiver +1 Scooze
-2 Finks +2 Knight of Autumn
-1 Shalai +1 Pia and Kiran
-1 Fountain + Breeding Pool
-1 Deputy of Detention +1 Voice of Resurgence
I think those changes give you plenty of ways to gum up the board, helping you beat agro, midrange and control. I can't see too many decks plowing through 2x Scooze, 3x knight, 2x resto easily, and even Voice, Wall of Roots, Deceiver, Rallier & Pia & Kiran gum up the board nicely. That also gives you value vs midrange/control, which is great.
You then have a bunch of low-curving creatures to sac to Evo to fetch up SB bullets. FWIW, I think Kataki & Staticaster are pretty poor right now, and with the changes I suggested, I doubt the 4th Knight is necessary! Tireless Tracker may be worth considering as a value card that avoids the GY, though it's likely unnecessary. I think 2-3x Damping Sphere would be great in your list. I also think 1-2 Fiery Justice would be nice too, if you can find room (I personally think Rhythm of the Wild would be on the chopping block, along with those less good bullets).
Sorry for the wall of text! Although I've given quite a few suggestions there, I do really like your list. IMO at least, you're heading down the right direction and perhaps just need to commit to it more. I'm stealing the idea of chord + Evo though!
@zyrgul_CZ - you are right, you can't combo off without hippo/conscripts/sun titan. However... there's a few things to bare in mind.
First - an activation of Pod without comboing can still be really good. For example, if you manage to upgrade a 2-drop into rallier and return voice, that can be really good vs control or agro, gumming up the board. Against people holding up bolt, you wouldn't necessarily even want to go for a combo line.
Second - the beauty of kiki-pod back in the day was that every card you could combo with was powerful by itself. That's not remotely true for Hippo, and although Conscripts is better, it's a little hit and miss depending on the match-up.
Third (and probably most importantly) - this new pod is both slower and more vunerable. As a result, building your deck focusing on combo could be troublesome. I think it's more important than ever to have a solid list that works without POD, and slot everything else in around it.
Having said that - we haven't had chance to test the cards yet, and I plan to add Hippo / Conscripts / Sun Titan at some point during my testing. We'll see where we end up!
@Kathal - I just wanted to respond to a couple of points in your last post (constructively ofcourse)!
First on Magus of the Moon... you put it as somewhere between good and great vs Humans and Spirits, but I don't think it'll play out that way, when both decks run Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch. The various lists running around have little way to remove Hierarch. Spirits even runs a few fetches and basics, so I really don't think Moon is great there. I also think that Grixis Shadow can remove it way too easily, get under it, and potentially even ignore it (1 swamp and they have access to all their threats and removal, just losing their cantrips / stubborn denials). It's only ever going to be ok there.
However, Amulet is a deck that's doing well at the minute, and should be in the great section. Anyway, I agree it's not really MD playable at the minute, specifically since most of us are 4 colours. So not disagreeing with you, but just expanding a touch on it!
Second - if you try to make this deck "all-in" combo, I'm almost always going to ask "why not play X" instead. I can't realistically see a way of being a turn 3 combo deck consistently, because you have to have a 4-of to win, and at least 2 other set up cards (dork + haste-giving thing) and land drops. Compare that to storm that just needs a 2-drop (which they have 6-7 copies of) and usually gets there (or 2 drop plus gifts), or KCI + ramp that just needs its namesake and has stirrings to find it.
In comparison to that, we need 1 extra set-up card, and need to find a 4-of rather than a 6-of or a 4-of with tutors to find it.
Then there's the resilience of the deck. Storm has a bit because of all the cantrips, KCI is similar. Our deck uses so many slots for it's actual combo that the resilience isn't there in the same way. If you compare it to Devoted Druid (which is pretty similar in that it needs 3 cards and 3 lands for the turn 3), Druid at least avoids the GY.
I just think that focusing on the combo is likely what makes this deck just a weaker something else. That's not to say you can't make the combo more effective, but I personally think the way this will be successful is by being a combo deck that can interact and grind. We're just too inconsistent and slow to race the fastest decks in format. Finding the right cards to grind with will be the tricky part though.
@the nobody's - I think it's simply "what card is good when you are not comboing". I think MOST of us are building a toolbox deck with a creature combo finish. I think this is the best way since you can't rely on pod and it's not the fastest combo in the world. As a result, deceiver, more often than not, will be better than bell ringer, specifically when you're on the back foot!
Rhythm looks interesting to me, but I'd not play more than 1. Its bad in multiples, and isn't even good in every match-up we play. On the flip side, Domri, Chaos Bringer is just at hte wrong point of the curve. It's a decent card for sure, but I already feel like I have too many 4 drops. Time will tell!
Seriously this set needs to hurry up and get printed!
Any predictions how much vannifar will be on MTGO?! I have 50 tix for the playset :S
There's a lot of ideas here which is really great. I just thought i'd share my opinion on chord and evo slightly...
1. Evo is obviously quicker. However, I feel like that kicks in much more in the sideboard games, where you can go get very specific bullets and lock people out much quicker (eidolon vs storm for example).
2. Chord gives pod haste. Again, I realise this has already been said, but chording for 4 on opps end step gives the opponent much less time to react. How relevant that'll be though, I'm not sure. Chording for 4 is 7 mana, so realistically isn't happening until your own turn 4 at the earliest, which could be the opponents turn 5 end step. Against anything remotely linear, you're already dead. Against anything controlling, a lot of their interaction comes at instant speed anyway, so the end step trick hardly matters.
I think we'll find Evo the better route. The lists I'm seeing at the moment are already pretty well placed vs midrange/control and should fair well against agro too (depending on your finks count). However, the linear decks are going to be faster than us and hard to interact with using the mainboard. A T2 scooze isn't going to do much against dredge, as an example, and it'll do even less vs KCI. As a result, getting to your SB bombs quicker is going to matter, so Evo is going to pull its weight.
Having said all of that, I just like chord more. Witness lines with Chord were always cool, and instant speed tricks are fun too.
Just a few more points. First @Kathal - you said "so I rate Shalai way higher than Spellskite". The difference on the curve is an important fact to remember. Being able to go T1 BOP into T2 Spellskite means your T3 Vannifar is much more likely to get the job done. It's not a wincon, at all, but flashing in a spellskite off a chord is much more realistic than a Shalai too. Shalai fills a different role, which is a mana sink. But I'm just not sure at this stage if we need it. I will be running a township and a couple of scooze, as well as chords. They're all really good at eating mana. Also, we're pretty heavy on 4-drops for combo pieces (3 resto and 4 Vannifar as stock at this point), so I don't want to be too heavy there.
On Sun Titan + Hippo + Conscripts being in the deck. I agree Hippo is pretty bad, but I actually think its comparable to seedcradle witch. Ranger of Eos is unexciting to say the least (grab witch + hierarch), and cradle only does a small bump for a chunk of mana. Hippo can at least create some combat tricks, and a flash 3/3 is ok against UWx etc. As far as Sun Titan being too high on the curve, its not a tonne different to a 3rd chord or a Shalai that needs a load of mana to be great. I think it's passable, but i'm also prepared for dropping hippo/titan if it doesnt work out.
On the manabase - Ive only got 1 sacred foundry and the rest of my shocks make green. This could be wrong, but having Turn 1 Green is important. I've added a single fire-lit thicket, plains, gavony township and hall of the bandit lord which all don't cast BOP, so I'm on 18 green sources. Again, ready to switch it up when it's wrong, but I like casting kiki, and casting BOPs.
@Soot - the list on MTGGoldfish is super greedy. It basically takes the curve of the "pre-ban" Kiki-pod decks, then drops 2 lands for 2 chords. I like some of whats going on in that list, but the curve is a real mess (bare in mind pod now costs 4 not 3 too). It shows off hte combos but doesn't show you a good list imo.
Ooo didnt know this was here I've been looking all over for people to talk about this deck with
I have 3 different lists that I am interested in playing, but the core 53-54 cards are the same in all 3, just with a few tweaks. Here's a few things that I haven't seen mentioned on this page:
1. Hall of the Bandit Lord really excites me.. The deck can support a non-green source or 2, and the ability to go T1 Bop, T2 Hall (or even T1 Hall, T2 Bop) into T3 Vannifar win is excellent. U dont want multiples, but I think 1 looks good on paper at least.
2. Have you guys been and checked out the deck-tech at MTGGoldfish. Some madman came up with this line:
Deceiver and Vannifar in play. Sac Deceiver, get Breaching Hippocamp, untap pod. Sac Hippo for Zealous Conscripts. Sac Conscripts for Sun Titan, return Deceiver. Sac deceiver get resto, flicker titan, get back deceiver, untap pod. Sac Resto get kiki, combo on Deceiver.
Once you add Hippo, you can also combo from any 2x 3 drops, OR a finks. Sac Finks, get hippo, sac finks again, get resto flicker hippo, sac hippo get kiki.
I don't know if this is good enough or not, but adding Conscripts (which is a decent card), Sun Titan (very good card) and Hippo (very bad card) opens up a tonne of combo options.
3. I think Spellskite is better than Shalai. We have a lot more 4-drops than before. We need to cut a few.
4. If you don't run a 2nd Kiki, Reveillark should be considered. Getting back Kiki+Deceiver sounds ok
Sorry if I'm repeating something here that's already been said. Very excited to play this deck again
Kanister - yes the SSG is situational and sometimes it doesnt even give you a speed boost (topdecked as an example). Stirrings certainly allows you to dig, but not always for what you want. As for matchups with SSG (you rightly mention storm/ad neasuem etc), I do think SSG is relevant when racing. In a combo-heavy meta (or against RDWs and affinity), SSG is good. You can race them a bit easier. In control/midrange, stirrings seems better. I wouldn't rule out either. Often I found myself siding out stirrings for hate cards, so game 2-3 will probably follow suite - out comes SSG if you run that!
Peer Through Depths seems a valid suggestion, as it can also find pacts. Has anyone tried it? Did anyone try see beyond? I had it for a little while, and occasionally was useful for shuffling annoying lands back into your deck. I think turn 2 search / draw is a little sketchy though!
Here's the issue I had with the black splash:
1. Thoughtseize was worse than Spell Pierce, so may as well keep Pierce. No biggy
2. Assassin's Trophy isn't that great
That sounds a bit dumb, but the issue is that it's average in every match, but never great. Like if Trophy is taking out Damping Sphere or Aether Vial, or anything bolt-able, Abrade is actually better because it doesn't give them a land. If it takes out an artifact/enchantment, then rec sage is better because its easier to cast and leaves a body behind.
The beauty with assassin's trophy is the flexibility, obviously. But, it is harder to cast than even Abrade, though that's pretty marginal. But, when Trophy was just being average for me every single turn, no matter what - I started thinking about other "destroy whatever you want" cards. I went to a basically mono-green deck (dropping red and black) and ran Beast Within. Although it costs 1 more and leaves a 3/3 behind, it's significantly easier to cast, to the point where you can run a 4th and possibly 5th basic forest. That gives you extra game vs moon, path and field of ruin for a start.
Secondly, its just a castable card. I felt Beast Within was very comparable in power level, with occasions where I'd prefer Trophy and occasions where it was significantly better.
Once I figured out all that, I just came to the conclusion that I don't want trophy or beast within. Once/if you decide that you don't want Trophy OR Thoughtseize, you're now saying "do I want to drop my splash colour JUST for cranial extraction". I think the answer is no.
That's not to say you can't run black or that even Edgar was wrong (brave man to say that). It's just that my testing suggested it wasn't very good. The beauty of amulet is that you can kinda get away with whatever you play, the core 60ish (across the 75) cards are that good. Just my thoughts on black. I'd almost always prefer Red or White.
I honestly think my 1st decklist is pretty well set vs control, but I would likely sideboard out a few mana dorks and probably the scryb ranger + spellskite (since 'skite doesn't really matter when you are on a value train). I can't see too many spots where the opponent taps out and doesn't deal with vannifar, so I don't need to commit to combo. I want to bring in more must-answer or sticky threats, but I'd like to avoid the GY. As a result, I think I'll just run some tireless trackers / thragtusks etc. It's also pretty reasonable to tempo out control by end-stepping a deceiver, running out an avalance rider then flicker it with resto. That'll be my aim!
If I'm playing the all-in combo deck, I just want to bring in cards that can protect the combo as best as possible, which is likely spell pierce, plus any value creatures I have laying around.
I think there's a couple of routes to try out, and everyone is going to have different opinions on the best starting point. Only testing and actually playing the cards will tell us for sure. But, theory-crafting is always fun
The idea of running Postmortem Lunge is an interesting 1, but 4 copies looks excessive. The deck also looks like it does absolute 0 without Vannifar itself. I'm also a bit baffled by the Phantasmal Image? There's no combo to speak of with it, though it can be a way to combo with a 1-drop + 2-drop if you have no ranger left over (though that's not true if the ranger is in the GY, since you can get rallier).
In a nutshell, his deck has no interaction, and only has 1 way to give vannifar haste first time around (postmortem lunge is no good when you first try to combo). As a result, it's VERY unlikely to combo on turn 3, meaning on the draw, you need everyone you face to be slower than turn 5. The deck has almost 0 interaction on its way.
I can't imagine Pardee's list doing much, but I've been wrong before and will be wrong again!!!
Lands
2 Breeding Pool
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Chord of Calling
2 Path to Exile
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Deceiver Exarch
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2 Knight of Autumn
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Prime Speaker Vannifar
1 Renegade Rallier
3 Restoration Angel
1 Reveillark
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Spellskite
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Wall of Roots
//Sideboard
1 Avalanche Riders
3 Damping Sphere
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Tireless Tracker
The plan for me is to try and grind in Game 1. So @zyrgul / headminerve - I'm running multiple Knight of Autumns to increase the chance of drawing it. There's a lot of sticky creatures to help chord be live earlier, and there's enough disruptive creatures to at least keep people off balance. You can use Deceiver to tap down lands, Knight (2) for whatever mode is necessary, Scooze (2), Spellskite and kinda voice/walls specifically against agro. Add in the Resto Angels to reuse the key effects, and you have a way to slow down the faster decks whilst developing your own game plan (plus path). Now, I'm not saying this makes us favoured against KCI/Storm, because it doesn't. But what it does mean is that there's a chance to steal Game 1 without it ruining your game against agro/control/midrange. Postboard, I have a tonne of stuff I can bring in to help (ravenous trap, remorseful cleric, damping sphere and eidolon are all great vs KCI/Storm).
That's the route i'm going to start out on anyway. However, I appreciate there's more than 1 way to skin a cat (weird phrase used in the UK). Here's what I'd play if i were going full-on combo, trying to race everyone.
//Lands
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
2 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Hall of the Bandit Lord
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
//Spells
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Deceiver Exarch
1 Deputy of Detention
3 Felidar Guardian
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 Lotus Cobra
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Prime Speaker Vannifar
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Shalai, Voice of Plenty
//Sideboard
1 Avalanche Riders
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fiery Justice
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Knight of Autumn
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Pierce
1 Thragtusk
2 Tireless Tracker
The sideboard here is more focused, trying to deal with problematic cards in whatever form they turn up (spell pierce and path dealing with specific 1-ofs). Tracker and Thragtusk are value cards that avoid the GY, so you have a better chance vs UW if they board in RIP. Knights might be wrong here, but I wanted some lifegain in the SB, so they seemed to fit nicely there.
Hope the decklists help share my opinion on the deck... basically, I think it's best to either commit to combo or commit to value, and don't sit somewhere in the middle (e.g. Chord lists with Hippo + Zealous Conscripts). Obviously you then have to build the whole 75 with that in mind.
1 last thing I want to mention... I've seen people writing stuff like "cant come up with a SB until I know how the deck plays". I think that's a load of rubbish! If they deck plays well, you'll need a SB. If it doesn't, well the SB doesn't fix that. What I've been doing as part of the theory-crafting is saying "what cards are weak against deck x", and then going "what would I board in". I've spent a good few hours looking at each MU and trying to fill in the blanks. The numbers in my lists aren't random. It may be that the actual cards themselves are not correct, but the roles should be (e.g. removal for Titi, hate for KCI etc).
On a more positive note...
1 day to go!!!!
I'll add at this point, it happened to me, and because I run the primer, the primer dissapeared for about a week. That's likely why no-one is talking aobut the SCG Winner! The primer wasn't here. I do plan to update the primer soon.
For those that haven't seen the winning list, it's here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/decks/126139
The interesting thing about this list, in my opinion, is that it's actually no quicker than the scout list. If anything, it's slower. Without an amulet, there's no way of resolving a turn 3 titan, because you'll ramp on Turn 3 and go for Through the Breach or just hardcast a titan on Turn 4. That's not that great.
However, there are some upsides. Sometimes you'll just get to through the breach an emrakul on Turn 4, which is significantly better than just casting a titan. You basically win the game on the spot thanks to the annihilator trigger. That's a pretty big upside.
Also, pretend you have Lightning Bolt or Gut Shot... it's almost blank against this deck. I know it's going to get pointed at your head instead, but the point is that a card like Gut Shot can really ruin a scout players day, but that's not the case for Swordtooth and co.
It's very similar to the lotus bloom version of the deck imo, as it focuses on a consistent Turn 4 rather than an explosive combo deck. Both have free wins (hive mind or emrakul) and both blank bolt pretty well.
Ive never been a fan of this style of deck, just because I prefer the midrange feel you get from the stock scout lists from time to time. Its a play preference more than a "this is right or wrong" though. Kudos to Dominic for winning with his list!
A card like Knight of Autumn is relevant vs hollow one (disenchant), burn (gain life), spirits (aether vial poof or gain 4)... flexible creatures that gain value when they come into play let you pod them without any worries. I honestly think the key is finding the right bullets, and finding them fast enough.
Also remember not every deck is trying to kill you on Turn 3-4. If you are against BGx or UWx, then Vannifar is just another threat they have to deal with. Thats fine. Having cards like Finks, Voice, Witness etc that are a little harder to kill makes you resilient in those MUs.
I'm personally quite optimistic. My list is changing daily even without testing, thanks to this group and the discord.
@thErgonomic - Spellskite is my go-to protection spell. You can cast it BEFORE you cast Vannifar, which is basically all i'm interested in when I'm racing. If my hand is all-in on combo-ing fast (my build isn't really combo focused, but it'll have hands that just have to try race), then I want Spellskite down before I play vannifar. Negate and Shalai fail in that spot imo. I'd rather run Spell Pierce than Negate, though I admittedly run Spell Pierce more than anyone healthy should!
I think Hallowed Fountain will likely be better as a 2nd Breeding Pool. The rest of your mana looks good to me, I like the single Township.
I really like how you have incorporated vannifar, evo and chord. They all have unique upside and also their own issues. However, I think the execution might be slightly off. I'll try explain my opinion rather than just give it!
So I'm playing "kiki-chord" this week (in preparation) and so don't have access to POD. However, it runs 3 Evo and 2 Chord. By switching those numbers around, I feel like you've added more clunk and removed some speed. THEN you're adding extra 4 drops in the form of Vannifar. My first recommendation would be to either drop the 3rd chord entirely, or swap it for Evo - otherwise I think your deck might be a little too slow.
I agree that your numbers might be slightly off. We have both recently said how you need to build the deck without the combo in mind, and then just have that as a way to close a game. Because of that, I think the 2nd Deceiver and possibly the 2nd Rallier should be cut. In addition, I always look at Shalai and think "that won't protect my vannifar", and I think there's better things to evo into.
I think Finks is better when you run hippo (since finks can turn into combo kill that way), and you're not running those. I'd like to see both of those finks replaced with more knight of autumn, since its just a slightly more flexible card. It helps you in some of your trickier match-ups.
I don't actually think you have a lot to go grab with your Evo if you sac a 2 or 3 drop. I'm currently testing Pia and Kiran Nalaar as that "combos" nicely with Voice + Evo, and its been great when behind on board or when you just need to deploy as many threats as possible vs control (think it's better than Shalai). I also think your current build could utilise a Reveillark over the 2nd Kiki-Jiki. It'll act as a combo piece some amount of the time, and the rest of the time, lets you play a value game.
On Voice of Resurgence - I think it's great vs anything not combo. So, it probably is worth a slot. I could easily see it becoming Wall of Omens if you're worried about hitting your land drops though.
It's also possible that you want some removal MD. Knight covers most bases, but when you're playing a more midrange/controlling strategy, I think Deputy of Detention becomes a bit of a liability. It may be that a Glorybringer is worth considering, or perhaps just some MD Path.
I realise there's quite a few changes that I've suggested there. But, what it comes down to is reducing the reliance on comboing, increasing the toolbox options, and reducing the clunkiness. If I were taking your list for a spin, this is what i'd probably do:
-1 Chord +1 Witness
-1 Kiki-Jiki +1 Reveillark
-1 Deceiver +1 Scooze
-2 Finks +2 Knight of Autumn
-1 Shalai +1 Pia and Kiran
-1 Fountain + Breeding Pool
-1 Deputy of Detention +1 Voice of Resurgence
I think those changes give you plenty of ways to gum up the board, helping you beat agro, midrange and control. I can't see too many decks plowing through 2x Scooze, 3x knight, 2x resto easily, and even Voice, Wall of Roots, Deceiver, Rallier & Pia & Kiran gum up the board nicely. That also gives you value vs midrange/control, which is great.
You then have a bunch of low-curving creatures to sac to Evo to fetch up SB bullets. FWIW, I think Kataki & Staticaster are pretty poor right now, and with the changes I suggested, I doubt the 4th Knight is necessary! Tireless Tracker may be worth considering as a value card that avoids the GY, though it's likely unnecessary. I think 2-3x Damping Sphere would be great in your list. I also think 1-2 Fiery Justice would be nice too, if you can find room (I personally think Rhythm of the Wild would be on the chopping block, along with those less good bullets).
Sorry for the wall of text! Although I've given quite a few suggestions there, I do really like your list. IMO at least, you're heading down the right direction and perhaps just need to commit to it more. I'm stealing the idea of chord + Evo though!
First - an activation of Pod without comboing can still be really good. For example, if you manage to upgrade a 2-drop into rallier and return voice, that can be really good vs control or agro, gumming up the board. Against people holding up bolt, you wouldn't necessarily even want to go for a combo line.
Second - the beauty of kiki-pod back in the day was that every card you could combo with was powerful by itself. That's not remotely true for Hippo, and although Conscripts is better, it's a little hit and miss depending on the match-up.
Third (and probably most importantly) - this new pod is both slower and more vunerable. As a result, building your deck focusing on combo could be troublesome. I think it's more important than ever to have a solid list that works without POD, and slot everything else in around it.
Having said that - we haven't had chance to test the cards yet, and I plan to add Hippo / Conscripts / Sun Titan at some point during my testing. We'll see where we end up!
First on Magus of the Moon... you put it as somewhere between good and great vs Humans and Spirits, but I don't think it'll play out that way, when both decks run Aether Vial and Noble Hierarch. The various lists running around have little way to remove Hierarch. Spirits even runs a few fetches and basics, so I really don't think Moon is great there. I also think that Grixis Shadow can remove it way too easily, get under it, and potentially even ignore it (1 swamp and they have access to all their threats and removal, just losing their cantrips / stubborn denials). It's only ever going to be ok there.
However, Amulet is a deck that's doing well at the minute, and should be in the great section. Anyway, I agree it's not really MD playable at the minute, specifically since most of us are 4 colours. So not disagreeing with you, but just expanding a touch on it!
Second - if you try to make this deck "all-in" combo, I'm almost always going to ask "why not play X" instead. I can't realistically see a way of being a turn 3 combo deck consistently, because you have to have a 4-of to win, and at least 2 other set up cards (dork + haste-giving thing) and land drops. Compare that to storm that just needs a 2-drop (which they have 6-7 copies of) and usually gets there (or 2 drop plus gifts), or KCI + ramp that just needs its namesake and has stirrings to find it.
In comparison to that, we need 1 extra set-up card, and need to find a 4-of rather than a 6-of or a 4-of with tutors to find it.
Then there's the resilience of the deck. Storm has a bit because of all the cantrips, KCI is similar. Our deck uses so many slots for it's actual combo that the resilience isn't there in the same way. If you compare it to Devoted Druid (which is pretty similar in that it needs 3 cards and 3 lands for the turn 3), Druid at least avoids the GY.
I just think that focusing on the combo is likely what makes this deck just a weaker something else. That's not to say you can't make the combo more effective, but I personally think the way this will be successful is by being a combo deck that can interact and grind. We're just too inconsistent and slow to race the fastest decks in format. Finding the right cards to grind with will be the tricky part though.
My account name was daviusminimus
Rhythm looks interesting to me, but I'd not play more than 1. Its bad in multiples, and isn't even good in every match-up we play. On the flip side, Domri, Chaos Bringer is just at hte wrong point of the curve. It's a decent card for sure, but I already feel like I have too many 4 drops. Time will tell!
Seriously this set needs to hurry up and get printed!
Any predictions how much vannifar will be on MTGO?! I have 50 tix for the playset :S
1. Evo is obviously quicker. However, I feel like that kicks in much more in the sideboard games, where you can go get very specific bullets and lock people out much quicker (eidolon vs storm for example).
2. Chord gives pod haste. Again, I realise this has already been said, but chording for 4 on opps end step gives the opponent much less time to react. How relevant that'll be though, I'm not sure. Chording for 4 is 7 mana, so realistically isn't happening until your own turn 4 at the earliest, which could be the opponents turn 5 end step. Against anything remotely linear, you're already dead. Against anything controlling, a lot of their interaction comes at instant speed anyway, so the end step trick hardly matters.
I think we'll find Evo the better route. The lists I'm seeing at the moment are already pretty well placed vs midrange/control and should fair well against agro too (depending on your finks count). However, the linear decks are going to be faster than us and hard to interact with using the mainboard. A T2 scooze isn't going to do much against dredge, as an example, and it'll do even less vs KCI. As a result, getting to your SB bombs quicker is going to matter, so Evo is going to pull its weight.
Having said all of that, I just like chord more. Witness lines with Chord were always cool, and instant speed tricks are fun too.
Just a few more points. First @Kathal - you said "so I rate Shalai way higher than Spellskite". The difference on the curve is an important fact to remember. Being able to go T1 BOP into T2 Spellskite means your T3 Vannifar is much more likely to get the job done. It's not a wincon, at all, but flashing in a spellskite off a chord is much more realistic than a Shalai too. Shalai fills a different role, which is a mana sink. But I'm just not sure at this stage if we need it. I will be running a township and a couple of scooze, as well as chords. They're all really good at eating mana. Also, we're pretty heavy on 4-drops for combo pieces (3 resto and 4 Vannifar as stock at this point), so I don't want to be too heavy there.
On Sun Titan + Hippo + Conscripts being in the deck. I agree Hippo is pretty bad, but I actually think its comparable to seedcradle witch. Ranger of Eos is unexciting to say the least (grab witch + hierarch), and cradle only does a small bump for a chunk of mana. Hippo can at least create some combat tricks, and a flash 3/3 is ok against UWx etc. As far as Sun Titan being too high on the curve, its not a tonne different to a 3rd chord or a Shalai that needs a load of mana to be great. I think it's passable, but i'm also prepared for dropping hippo/titan if it doesnt work out.
On the manabase - Ive only got 1 sacred foundry and the rest of my shocks make green. This could be wrong, but having Turn 1 Green is important. I've added a single fire-lit thicket, plains, gavony township and hall of the bandit lord which all don't cast BOP, so I'm on 18 green sources. Again, ready to switch it up when it's wrong, but I like casting kiki, and casting BOPs.
@Soot - the list on MTGGoldfish is super greedy. It basically takes the curve of the "pre-ban" Kiki-pod decks, then drops 2 lands for 2 chords. I like some of whats going on in that list, but the curve is a real mess (bare in mind pod now costs 4 not 3 too). It shows off hte combos but doesn't show you a good list imo.
I have 3 different lists that I am interested in playing, but the core 53-54 cards are the same in all 3, just with a few tweaks. Here's a few things that I haven't seen mentioned on this page:
1. Hall of the Bandit Lord really excites me.. The deck can support a non-green source or 2, and the ability to go T1 Bop, T2 Hall (or even T1 Hall, T2 Bop) into T3 Vannifar win is excellent. U dont want multiples, but I think 1 looks good on paper at least.
2. Have you guys been and checked out the deck-tech at MTGGoldfish. Some madman came up with this line:
Deceiver and Vannifar in play. Sac Deceiver, get Breaching Hippocamp, untap pod. Sac Hippo for Zealous Conscripts. Sac Conscripts for Sun Titan, return Deceiver. Sac deceiver get resto, flicker titan, get back deceiver, untap pod. Sac Resto get kiki, combo on Deceiver.
Once you add Hippo, you can also combo from any 2x 3 drops, OR a finks. Sac Finks, get hippo, sac finks again, get resto flicker hippo, sac hippo get kiki.
I don't know if this is good enough or not, but adding Conscripts (which is a decent card), Sun Titan (very good card) and Hippo (very bad card) opens up a tonne of combo options.
3. I think Spellskite is better than Shalai. We have a lot more 4-drops than before. We need to cut a few.
4. If you don't run a 2nd Kiki, Reveillark should be considered. Getting back Kiki+Deceiver sounds ok
Sorry if I'm repeating something here that's already been said. Very excited to play this deck again
Peer Through Depths seems a valid suggestion, as it can also find pacts. Has anyone tried it? Did anyone try see beyond? I had it for a little while, and occasionally was useful for shuffling annoying lands back into your deck. I think turn 2 search / draw is a little sketchy though!