Seems that we're going to have another expansion where there's nothing for BW Midrange. Anyways, seems that the other day there was a list doing 5-0 on MTGO, though it was a more control focused version of the deck: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-orzhov-kaya#paper
I have also been experimenting with Mentor of the Meek with somehow decent results. It is indeed somehow slow, but combined with Bitterblossom and LS it becomes a quite decent engine for card advantage. This is my most recent list: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1705041#paper
I still have trouble agains Tron and combo, though the UW Control, BG and Phoenix MU are quite decent. We still need a good way to grow big and apply pressure beyond the tokens, and of course a removal for permanents that can somehow compete with Assassins Trophy. Maybe in 5 years when we revisit Ravnica.
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Nov 15, 2018Posted in: Midrange
Fulminator at the very least trades with most aggro creatures in a worst-case scenario. I think that we're not really so much arguing over Fulminator vs FoR, but FoR vs Mutavault. I'd probably not mind replacing Vault with another Mutavault to have 3 total in my list.
I'm not really arguing FoR vs Mutavault nor if we should run land destruction MD, but if that land destruction should be on a land spot or on a 3cmc spot. The curve of the deck is really high, and having 10-11 3cmc cards and 4-5 4cmc cards results in a lot of hands where you can do nothing until turn 3-4.
Damping Sphere might be really good against Storm and Tron, though I find Stony Silence + GY removal (Spellbomb + RIP) more reliable, since Storm doesn't usually play enchantment removal and you can shut up Oblivion Stone and maps against Tron. That said, I wouldn't mind to try it as a 1-off on my SB since it is pretty versatile.
The last list I've been working on:
I'm trying both Mutavault and FoR on the same mana base, as well as Gideon AoZ as a finisher. I've also been testing 2 Fulminators MD, though, just to see if they perform better than I think, but I don't have conclusive results yet. I'd like to add the 3rd TSeize, I'll test if 3 Sorins and 2 Gideons are really necessary and if not I'll swap one of them.
Nov 13, 2018Tombstalker with Bob is really bold. I'm really curious about how it turns up, though, I've always liked that creature.Posted in: Midrange
I've changing my mana base a bit to add more white sources, and right now it looks like this:
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards 4 Swamp
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
2 Fetid Heath
2 Field of Ruin
2 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
Those are 18 black and 16 white sources. I'd prefer to have 1-2 more basic lands, though.
Edit: the problem with Bog is that you don’t want it as a land drop but as a way to remove a gy later in the game, so if you draw it on you opening hand makes it more difficult to curve out.
Nov 13, 2018Posted in: Midrange
Unfortunate to hear about your results, but at least it was a good learning experience. For posterity’s sake, would you mind posting what decks you went up against? I can kind of sort of figure out that you played vs Control and Midrange, but that’s about it. I definitely like the 1 maindeck Nihil Spellbomb, that's a smart choice.
Of course. I haven't had time to write the report, but in summary it was something like this:
- R1 - UB Midrange: This match up wasn't bad. I lacked firepower, though, so we ended up 1-1. Nihil Spellbomb and FoR were all stars in this match up. Some interesting cards he played MD were FoR, Mutavaul, Creeping Tar Pit and Bitterblossom MD.
- R2 - Mono G Tron: Having FoR MD in this match up worked as good as I could expect, and 6 answers to Tron lands post board (3 FoR + 3 Fulminators) really helped. Again, I didn't have enough firepower, he could eventually hit an Ugin, destroy my tokens and win.
- R3 - Storm: The Spellbomb shined in this match up, but I would have loved to draw more gy hate.
- R4 - Titanshift: He didn't find a way to combo me before I could disrupt his whole hand. Watch out for the Ballistas, though.
- R5 - Jund: This one was really difficult since he drew 2-3 AssTrophies per match, and finished with Raging Ravine and the Elves.
- R6 - UW Control: The first match was great, but again, on the second one I didn't draw anything to finish the game after I had it under control, so he topdecked Baneslayer Angel and Teferi and won. We ended up 1-1. FoR, Spellbomb and Kambal worked amazingly well here.
The takeovers for me are that I need a more reliable finisher and that teching Spellbombs was a good choice, even if I didn't do well.
Fulminator makes for a great threat and allows us to be more proactive. It’s a 3 mana spell that comes down as a 2/2 and always threatens. I’m glad that you are liking Field of Ruin, but unfortunately, you’re losing a ton of firepower with the loss of the Mutavaults.
My concern is that you’re dropping Mutavaults for Field of Ruin, so you lose the ability to turn the corner, which then further warrants more changes main deck. You’ll need to add more white mana for multiple Gideons, and I’m not sure what you would drop to change it.
That being said, like you, I still rarely find a use for Vault of the Archangel. This deck uses its mana nearly every turn and I haven’t really found too many spots where I just happen to have 5 mana open to activate it.
You are right, but FoR doesn't usually screw or curve (our mana base is already pretty consistent) but having 10-11 3cmc cards can make some hands too slow. And having both FoR and Fulminator really helps against Tron. In the MUps were Fulminator is not helpful (mostly Aggro), it's spot could be a removal or a cantrip, while FoR is still a land that doesn't hurt us much. However, I really missed Mutavaults, and I'm thinking about doing -1 VotA and -1 FoR to add +2 Mutavault. I might try 2 md Fulminators, though, if I'm able to find a place for them, since they could free me some spots in the SB and, as you say, it's still a good card.
Nov 11, 2018Yesterday I went to a big tournament that was hosted in my city with this list:Posted in: Midrange
The results were... Well, really bad. However, I got some insights that might be interesting. The deck performed really well during the first few turns, but when the board was controlled, it lacked the speed to kill my opponents before they could recover. Almost every match can be resumed that way, really.
I had a Nihil Spellbomb teched on the last minute, and it resulted to be amazing. It's a great response against Storm and Snappies, as well as a way to not be completely dead against Dredge on game 1. I'd like to add a couple more MD, maybe replacing the Whispers since they have the same role.
Another card that resulted to be amazing was Field of Ruin. It helped a lot killing Azcantas and manlands. However, I really missed Mutavaults to pressure my opponents. On the other hand, I never had an opportunity to use VotA.
Since killpower seems to be what's lacking, I'm thinking about adding +3 Gideon, AoZ on the main deck. However, that makes it difficult to fit the Spellbombs. I'm not completely sold on the Fulminators MD, though, since FoR achieves the same results for the decks where FM is needed but it's not a just 2/2 for 3 mana for the matches where it's not.
Nov 7, 2018The problem is that the 3cmc curve is already topped with both Lilianas and Lingering Souls, which only leaves free spots on the >=4cmc (taken by Sorin / Gideon) and <=2cmc (which is much better in BG with the Goyfs and Oozes). I haven't find a good 2cmc creature that acts as a finisher, though. The rats are interesting, but you need card advantage and not needing the cards in hand for them to work. You also need Mutavaults, which I think are inferior to FoR since the latter can act as a removal for manlands and as a way to consolidate the victory against Tron.Posted in: Midrange
Nov 7, 2018In fact, let's hope for a good 1-2cmc orzhov creature, since >3cmc ones are easier to find.Posted in: Midrange
I'm not convinced about Pack Rat, it does nothing when it ETB, it's not a great top deck and it's easy to kill until you have a copy, and even then a Maelstrom Pulse just deals with it.
I've been taking a look at different finishers. The cards I've been considering are Gideon AoZ, Batterskull (again), 2nd copy of Kalitas and Obzedat. The list is quite tight, though, I'm unsure what to take to add them other than the Sorins, which are already quite important.
Nov 2, 2018NW is performing really well as a 4-off for me, though if your meta in infested with burn it might not be the best idea. I haven't felt it so harmful with 4 Vents, 3 Sorins that give Lifelink and the Vaults. Speaking of which, I wouldn't remove them, not only because it makes combat difficult for aggro decks (if they don't attack you are essentially buying turns to set up your walkers) but it also make your spirits semi-unblockable (no opponent would like to trade their Colonnades for a 1/1 on defense).Posted in: Midrange
Oct 30, 2018@Muad'dib That's a nice list. How is the Settle the Wreckage working for you? I've been thinking about trying it as a 1-of in the SB but my list is quite tight.Posted in: Midrange
I've been trying out different configurations of the deck and noticed that it lacks mainly two things: a good early finisher and consistency on the draw. This is the last version I'm playing, which is actually doing quite well:
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Maindeck
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Fatal Push
2 Path to Exile
2 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
4 Field of Ruin
4 Shambling Vent
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
4 Night's Whispers
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Anguished Unmaking
Kalitas is there to have a slight opportunity against Dredge on G1 and to add an early lifelinker against aggro decks. I've also tried Batterskull in this spot and, while it's really good, drawing it with Bob can be difficult. I also didn't want to have a higher curve.
I added +4 Night's Whispers to improve the overall consistency of the deck. This is the latest addition and, while it can look painful, we still have a lot of ways to gain life.
I also tweaked a bit the mana base, removing the Mutavaults in favor of Field of Ruin to have a better pairing against Tron, kill manlands and also Azcantas. I also added the playset of Steaming Vents to ensure I always have a manland and to gain some life or the NW.
Oct 21, 2018I've been playing this version with decent results: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/1409880Posted in: Midrange
I took out the Mutavaults in favor or Field of Ruin. My area is infested with Tron and I wanted to have a chance on game 1. Swapped Batterskull with Kalitas to have a chance against Dredge too.
The next things I want to try is adding some Path to Exile on the MD and Zealous Persecution on the SB. Most midrange decks play 6-8 targeted removal, and even if ours is not as versatile as Bolt or Trophy, PtE seems better than Cast Out against Dredge, Tron and LtLH. On the other hand, ZP looks good as a combat trick that also works against (Bl)inkmoth Nexus, Tokens and aggro decks.
Oct 15, 2018The only things worth noticing are the -1 Mutavault +1 Fetid Heath and the -1 Darkblast and +1 Settle the Breckage. I think the deck can actually go down to 24 lands though, but the sb inclusion is interesting.Posted in: Midrange
Oct 13, 2018Batterskull is performing well, but revealing it with Bob itches. You can gain the life back the next turn, though.Posted in: Midrange
I haven't had much time to test the GA, but in the context of the deck looks decent enough. It's a 2 drop, which lowers the curve (we usually want Liliana down on turn 3). It's easy to cast. And it works well both in defense (by blocking anything on the ground) and in attack (semi unblockable and the lifegain is amazing against Burn).
Brimaz and Kalitas also look good, but I'd say that Kalitas mostly competes with Batterskull and Sorin, and I like the others better.
Oct 12, 2018Posted in: MidrangeQuote from Popcornpasta »I feel like anguished unmaking is a good sideboard card if you have the space for it due to its flexibility. I don't know that I'd play it mainboard though.
Personally I've been using a single path to exile in that slot and I like it better than cast down due to having no restrictions on the kind of creatures it can target.
AU is a fine card for a number of matchups, but against aggressive decks it's probably not worth the life loss over a different removal spell. Also, the only noncreature permanent I can think of that I really don't want to have to play against is leyline of sanctity. I feel we have enough disruption that most everything else isn't too much of a problem if we can restrict the opponent's resources sufficiently.
Inquisition + thoughtseize + Sculler + Liliana is a brutal recipe for breaking up synergy and a single powerful card (like Jace or azcanta etc.) doesn't usually seem to be enough for them to mount a comeback in my experience.
Well, Karn and other PW are also things that AU gets rid of, as well as Pyromancer Ascension or some artifacts if you can't hit them with discard spells. PtE is a good alternative, though, since it lowers the curve and let you kill Wurmcoil Engines.
Edit: after trying the deck for some matches, I've decided to make some tweaks:
First, swapping a SSV for a Batterskull. SV is great, but I feel it really shines when you are already winning. Batterskull is a great top deck that can be recursive and works well with the tokens both in defense and offense.
Since we have less lifegain on the early game, I'm trying Gifted Aethersborn and move the Fulminators to the SB. It's proving to be decent in the mu against Humans, it blocks Thalia and Goyfs, making the combat more favorable to us at the beginning.
Finally, I added a PtE and some Field of Ruin instead of the Mutavault so it's not an auto-lose against Tron on the first game, and placed a AU on the SB.
Here's the list: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/7175-orzhov-midrange
Oct 11, 2018What do you guys think about swapping the Cast Out for an Anguished Unmaking? I feel the list is lacking something to deal with non-creature permanents, if they hit the board, we are doomed. Taking out one Thoughtseize might be another option, but I don't want to make the curve much higher. I've also thought about adding one Batterskull instead of one Solemn Visitor, but again, hitting it with Bob might be gg.Posted in: Midrange
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