Count me in the camp that thinks <> is the new way to represent colorless mana to distinguish it from generic mana. I won't reitirate what has already been said as to why this makes sense -- instead I wanted to make a brief comment about the appearance of the symbol itself and the question as to whether it is hedron-like or something more neutral.
I have to say, when I first saw it, I did not see a hedron, but rather the very notation that everyone has been using to represent it: <>
It just so happens that <> is used as a relational operator in many programming languages to represent "not equal to" - this makes sense to me as a representation of not having a color... but maybe that is just bias from having written one too many SQL queries.
That said, I want to note that I think all the other reasons for this interpretation of <> are much stronger than its appearance as arguments -- I just thought it was an interesting coincidence...
Wow, thanks so much for all of your help! I started off by swapping the petals for gemstone mines, making it modern legal and reducing the likelihood of only bounces in the opening hand. I am a little reluctant to cut any bouncelands, but will see how this is performing and perhaps cut some for reflecting pools. Not sure how I missed that petals were not legal -- in my defense I am not usually a modern player (just casual multi-player), but have been trying to make my decks modern legal lately. My old version of this deck ran flickering ward instead of view from above as the ascendancy trigger, so was definitely not modern. Legality aside, view is better in some ways as it is instant and is easier to cast (making the bounceland strategy possible), but definitely does not offer the protection that came with the wards.
The removal of the petals slowed it down a little, but not too bad. The 2-turn win is no longer possible, but that was not really happening anyway. 3-turn still is possible several ways, but you have to draw into all your pieces (with petals, could tutor once and still go off turn 3). That said, it is still possible to tutor 1-3 times and still go off turn four, so can still be rather fast. One thing other than speed the petals gave was the ability to trigger ascendancy once for free to untap for extra mana, or loot before ready to go off. Any 0-cmc non-creature spells that I could add to fill this role? Would only add something if it gave additional utility than just being a free trigger and I can't seem to find something that fits the bill.
Don't know if I would cut a Jeskai Ascendancy as multiples in play add value, by being able to go off with just 1 mana dork without a bounceland. View from above does not give any values in multiples though so might look into cutting 1 of those - having the hasty creatures would certainly be nice!
Most versions of the Jeskai Ascendancy combo rely on cantrips to go off (see Ascendancy Storm and Ascendancy Combo-Control). I have been playing variations on a non-cantrip-based version of the combo with my casual group since ascendancy came out, but I just recently was fooling around with bouncelands for a different deck and that lead me to tweak this deck in a newer direction. Was wondering what people think:
Jeskai Ascendancy + View from Above + 1-2* mana/untap dorks infinitely pump (and give flight) to creatures, while looting X times until grapeshot is found for storm kill (might substitute instant-speed fling or soul's fire for shot in 1v1 games - I usually play multiplayer).
*Only need one untap dork if you have a bounceland in play, otherwise need two mana/untap dorks.
Also Note: limited to less than infinite loops by life loss if have to use untap dork with city/confluence, but can still be enough to attack for the kill. Ideally, if you have not played a land the turn you go off, you can loot until you find a bounceland and then put it into play and switch to untapping it for infinite loop.
Transmute to find missing combo piece. Transmute cards can be used as extra creatures / counters when transmute not needed. Supply/Demand can be transmuted into with both 2- and 3-cmc cards. Then Demand can tutor Jeskai or Follower OR can tutor Infiltrator, which can THEN transmute to View.
I know a lot of the established ascendancy decks use Fatestitcher as an untapper, but since my version only really interacts with the graveyard once ascendancy is already on line, I went with guys that could be more consistently hard casted.
Goldfishing, I go off on turn 3 surprisingly often and usually takes no more than 5 turns... theoretically it can go off turn two with a god hand but have yet to actually see that when play testing. Thanks for any feedback!
Thanks all for the feedback! I play tested some more and definitely going with the bant version. I think the bounce lands number is actually about right - just needed to get used to when to play them, was a bit confusing at first.
Don't know how I left out Kudzu - would definitely swap him for the gnarlid in the simic list. Not sure if I would put him in the bant list though as the 1-drop cats might still be stronger - especially since the infinite pump can be done at instant speed so on both turns. Of course, would be nice for the counters to stay even if combo pieces got taken out unlike the pumps. I might put 2 kudzu in and remove 2 angels -- they are great, but higher mana and not as beneficial to have multiples of as the pumpers.
Ruin Ghost really isn't any less cards. Ghost needs one untapped white producing land in play plus coralhelm. Gardener/Scout need one bounce land in hand plus coralhelm. So actually gardener/scout are better since they can go off when you are completely tapped out. Also Ghost does not play well with my mana base at all so that would need to be changed -- bouncelands don't work with him at all and painlands would be, well, painful. Gardener/Scout both use bounce land in hand -- so they work together -- if I have multiples that is just extra triggers to tap a guy or scry. Ghost on the other hand would not play nicely with the others as he needs a different type of land and in a different zone. Also, gardener/Scout help ramp while ghost does not. Actually if anything I might add a couple Walking Atlas since he plays nicely with the others and as I say the more the merrier for extra triggers -- again thought about adding a couple in exchange for removing some angels.
--Edited to add an example--
T1)Plains, Lynx
T2)Island, Ruin Ghost
T3)Forest, Retreat to Coralhelm
T4)Offshoot, Infinite Life + Infinitely Large Lynx
VS.
T1)Brushland, Scout
T2)Lynx, Growth Chamber [Bounce Brush] Tap Scout to replay Brush, Offshoot
T3)Coralhelm, Play Chancery (Bounce Chancery) - tap down opponents creature with 1st trigger. Activate scout (Bouncing and rebouncing Chancery) Infinite Life + Infinitely Large Lynx (facing one less blocker)
Both use 3 lands, 3 Creatures, and Coralhelm but second is in one less turn with an extra landfall trigger to tap down blocker
Since I have a love for janky combos, I was very excited to see the new Retreat to Coralhelm, which seems full of possibilities. If you have not checked it out, go look at the Knight of the Reliquary Combo thread in the Modern Deck Creation forum. However, I was wondering if I could put something together without using the somewhat pricy (even more so now!) knights.... also why use a 2-card combo when you can make a 4+ card combo instead, right!
Here are two very rough versions of my idea so far:
coralhelm + breeze caller + (gardener or scout) = infinite landfall triggers
If you have the chamber in play with the breeze caller, then you can also repeatedly bounce a land with an enter the battlefield effect (here I have the falls, but I was thinking of something like Piranha Marsh or the new Skyline Cascade).
It can go off as early as turn three with infinite life, an infinitely pumped creature, or an infinite number of bird tokens (the last is more likely to come at turn 4 at the earliest but can happen in 3).
I think the simpler Bant version is probably better, but I like the added tricks you can get with the breeze caller. I do feel like there are just too many bounce lands in the Bant version and not enough in the Simic one so I could probably adjust that. I also really like that the downside of deprive suddenly just adds utility instead and am wondering if I can add some other spells that bounce lands as an additional cost.
Anyway, curious what people think, and yes I realize the aforementioned Knight combo is --far-- superior - but I think this combo should be fun...
Thanks all for the feedback -- especially clod5, wow that was great!
@JimmyMe: Yeah, someone in my play group plays a casual sliver deck that does pretty well. However, I'm afraid I'm addicted to playing ridiculous combos. Strangely enough they do pretty well with my play group, even though they are pretty much all vulnerable to bolt. As Torpf says, the fact that they we play multi-player does help a lot in that regard. For this particular deck the redundancy will be the main thing combating that vulnerability - also the fact that if they try to disrupt me mid-combo, I just need a few mana open to restart the loop with a new spell copy and keep the combo going.
@Torpf : I had considered Diffusion Sliver, but had not thought of Dormant Sliver - I think because I was mainly looking at low cmc slivers - but that might be worth adding.
@clod5 : Thanks again so much - your feedback is really helpful!!! I think I like all your changes, and will definitely need to try them out. I had originally thought about Dual Casting, but wanted more creatures, but by removing most of the non-slivers, you make the shields and the hivestone easy to remove, freeing up more space for creatures (slivers). The one down side to losing Nivix Guildmage is that, when goldfishing, I occasionally sunk extra mana into his first ability to dig for combo pieces.
Sorry about the heart sliver - I think I was looking at that before I decided to make the deck modern and forgot about that... crystalline sliver is the other non-modern sliver I was looking at (also not as budget as the other cards). Blur Sliver still seems pretty strong despite the added cmc. I really do like the efficiency of the druid adding mana for the combo at the same time providing a finisher through ping, but can understand the need to replace him with more slivers. As for land, Ancient Ziggurat seems like the best replacement for bivouac, but would again require spending more money on the deck than I originally budgeted.
Hopefully will get a chance to try the deck with my play group tomorrow - probably will not have time to make any changes yet, but will be interesting to see how it does in real life...
Hi all, I mostly play casual multiplayer and focus on making janky combo decks. The latest one I am working on happens to be modern legal and rather cheap, so thought I would post it here. Wondering if it could be tweaked at all to make it somewhat competitive.
Basic Premise: A copier (either guildmage) copies untapping instant (either arms or roar) and gets infinite untap (and somtimes infinite mana) by untapping mana-producing slivers (slivers + manaweft or gemhide). Hivestone or Shield makes non-slivers into slivers to add to mana production. Finisher is either infinite mill with screech or infinite ping with druid. With izzet mage need 3 mana producers for win with ping, 4 mana producers for win with mill. With nivix mage need 4 mana producers for ping, 5 for mill (remember mage counts as one of the producers as long as stone or shield is in play). If using arms with mill will have to draw until get roar and restart loop otherwise will mill yourself too.
When goldfishing, it generally goes off turn 4-6. If it stalls you usually at least have a board full of creatures (albeit weak ones) to stall until the combo comes together. It also has a couple ways of digging (to arms and nivix guildmage). I am wondering what changes to make and/or what I would sideboard. Thinking could set up sideboard to change it to just a basic agro sliver deck - if so what slivers to include? Heart Sliver seems like a a good potential even for the combo version as it could make it go off quicker. I also thought about adding in/ side boarding some X-cost instants that could act as an alternative finisher as well as provide some much needed removal/disruption. The deck can make lots of mana (sometimes infinite, and usually of any color) so x-spells seem like the way to go... I am looking at Comet Storm and Profane Command -- any other possibilities?
Here are a few gold fishing examples to show how it can go off there is so much redundancy that there are tons of ways it can go (so easier to just show some examples:
opening hand
1 x coast
2 x bivouac
1 x manaweft
1 x izzet
1 x screeching
1 x druid
T1
play bivouac
T2
draw: another izzet
play coast
tap bivouac and coast for 1g
cast manaweft
T3
draw: roar
play bivouac
tap manaweft and bivouac for rg
cast druid
tap coast for u (19 life)
cast screeching
T4
draw: to arms
tap screeching and bivouac for uu
cast izzet
tap manaweft and druid (1 dmg to opponent) for wg
play to arms
to arms resolves, untap creatures, draw gemhide
tap manaweft and bivouac for wu
play roar choosing untap
while roar on stack,
tap coast, druid (1 dmg), screeching for 1gu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
loop x times:
---
tap druid, screeching, manaweft (1 dmg) for guu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
---
Repeat above loop x times, for x dmg to opponent and win
1 x druid
1 x roar
1 x hive
1 x gemhide
1 x arms
1 x izzet
1 x coast
T1
play hive
T2
draw nivix
play coast
tap coast, hive for 1g
cast gemhide
T3
draw another nivix
tap alive, coast for rg (19 life)
cast druid
T4
draw screeching
tap hive for u
cast screeching
tap gem hide coast for uu (18 life)
cast izzet
T5
draw hivestone
tap hive and gemhide for 1w
play roar choosing untap
while roar on stack,
tap coast, druid (1 dmg to opponent), screeching for 1gu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
loop x times:
---
tap druid (1 dmg), screeching, gemhide for guu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
---
Repeat above loop x times, for x dmg to opponent and win
1 bivouac
1 k. forest
1 gem hide
1 to arms
1 shields
1 screeching
1 izzet
T1
play bivouac
T2
draw another bivouac
play k. forest
tap k. forest, bivouac for 1g
cast gemhide
T3
draw another screeching
play bivouac
tap bivouac for u
cast screeching
tap gemhide, forest for ur (19 life)
cast izzet
T4
draw another izzet
tap two bivouacs for uu
cast izzet
tap gemhide for u
cast screech
T5
draw coast
play coast
tap screeching for w
cast shields
tap coast, screeching for 1w
cast to arms
while to arms on stack
tap gemhide, two izzets for uuu
activate izzet first ability, targeting to arms on stack
copy of to arms resolves all creatures untap, draw card
loop following x times (until draw roar)
---
tap gemhide, two screeching, two izzets for wuuuu
activate izzet first ability, targeting to arms on stack
copy of to arms resolves all creatures untap, draw card
---
Repeat above loop x times, for x draws, x blue mana, and x white mana
in this case x=9 times to draw roar
Let original to arms on stack resolve
Use floating mana to cast roar and make first roar copy with izzet ability
then loop following x times
---
tap gemhide, two izzets for uuu
tap two screeching for activated ability making opponent mill twice
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
copy of roar resolves all creatures untap
---
repeat above loop x times to mill 2x from opponent until decked
Example 1 shows how having extra arms/roars can allow you to net some extra mana and go off a turn earlier (note this would not have even been necessary if I had one more land draw. Also, example 3 can show just how complicated it can get if you are using the mill strategy with arms since you have to switch to roar -- luckily the infinite draw with to arms lets you easily find it...
Anyway, curious as to what people think. Have not yet tried it with my casual group, but probably will next week. Any suggestion / feedback would be most appreciated - thanks!
EDITED TO ADD the following:
Forgot one other finisher - cast the entwined version of roar so each loop pumps all creatures +1/+1 - then send over all your creatures. This is a somewhat conditional finisher as at least one of your guys have to get through, but you are usually talking 4 or more 20+/20+ creatures (albeit non-evasive) so you will probably get through, especially earlier in the game.
I Goldfished the deck 20 times and averaged 6 turns to go off (most common was 5-6 turns). Cases that were 7 +turns were usually when I had to mulligan multiple times (sometimes down to 4 cards).
Ha ha, nothing like updating a thread two years later!
I never got a chance to experiment further although I did get some poker chips -- I never actually tried this method on them.
However, I was just recently inspired and tried it on some blank credit cards (yes, you can buy those and they're cheap in bulk). I wanted to see if I could use them to make tokens. So I tried making some spirit tokens for my Forbidden Orchard Deck. I used silver ones since the spirits are colorless (although thanks to the light they look goldish in the pictures).
They come in various colors (including transparent) so may try experimenting further. The image I used for this was taken from a 16th century German engraving. I know it looks a bit more skeleton/zombie like than spirit, but I am tired of people asking me if the tokens have flying so wanted it to be clearly a walker
Anyway let me know what you think and if you have any questions about the process... I found it worked best when you did one at a time - I tried to transfer the ink to multiple cards at once and it did not work as well -- also needed to stick them under something heavy right away or else they got warped from the heat...
And yes I realize I could just print on them directly using an ID card printer, but I don't have access to one of those unfortunately...
Idea is to bounce the same aura over and over again with helix or cavalry (need one aura in hand and one on field for latter). Then Messenger's Speed and/or Aqueous Form makes sure your pumped guy(s) get through. Also even if you can't combo off, you can still cast multiple auras in the same turn to pump guys through Ascendancy (and/or prowess for the Swiftspear) for big hits.
This is mainly for casual play, but wonder if this general approach could be made somewhat competitive... thoughts/ideas???
I like that the auras are much more utilitarian here (rays can be used defensively at first then later as combo piece and other two get you through as mentioned). Thought about other defensive auras like Singing Bell Strike or Pin to the Earth but 2cmc makes them much harder to combo with. Similarly, Karametra's Favor can be used as combo piece or to make a non-dork into a mana dork, but seems too costly at 2cmc.
Could also maybe add other prowess guys or did like the idea mentioned before of Anthousa, Setessan Hero as a 1- or 2-of since she can be both a helix target and a source of multiple mana dorks...
Obviously just throwing somewhat random ideas out there, but thought it might get someone thinking...
Just wanted to say I am loving this thread and deck!
I will preface by saying I play casual janky combo decks - so pretty sure I am just making this more convoluted and slower - but what about triton cavalry in a cheap auras build? With two auras you can do an infinite bounce cycle... Like I said pretty sure this is an unnecessary additional complication but just thought I'd throw it out there anyway...
As mentioned in this this thread, Allie Brosh of the Hyperbole and a Half blog / book plays Modern.
The linked thread includes a Reddit AMA where she discusses MTG quite a bit. She also mentions it in a lot (or is that alot?) of her interviews - including this Wired Interview.
No. Spiral doesn't target the cards in your graveyard, it only targets players. Also Spiral doesn't shuffle itself.
BnB's scenario has possibility storm in play after an enter the infinite has resolved. The following turn, after your draw there will be no cards in the library so when you cast spiral and it is exiled, there will be no instants to copy so it will be placed in the library as sole card - so when you cast an instant it will copy it...
That is if I am understanding BnB' scenario and your objection correctly - I apologize if I am mistaken.
I mentioned this synergy / combo in the Theros Combo and Theros Infinite Threads, but here is my first (very rough) attempt at an actual deck.
I should preface this by saying that I only recently got back into Magic after a 15+ year hiatus and my activity since my return has mostly been restricted to limited tournaments or casual kitchen table magic. All that to say, please be gentle on me
So there is the possibility of an infinite mana / infininite untap loop. Such as:
Axebane + Arcanist (Tactics exiled) + Doorkeeper
Using the doorkeeper allows for infinite mill as well: loop through untapping the arcanist & guardian for infinite mana, then loop through again with arcanist & doorkeeper to mill them.
Now that combo is obviously very fragile and christmas-landish, but you can pump out a ton of mana even without the infinite loop. Then you can spend the mana on a making a monstrous colossus really early or just a big geyser or sphinx's revelation.
You can also put other spells like simic charm, dissolve, or silence on the arcanist for repeatable fun and can use the simic charm to bounce him if you need to switch spells and use the mnemonic wall to retrieve instants you have used up.
Other X-spells to take advantage of massive mana output - e.g. Curse of the Swine
Other untap instant Burst of Strength - can't really be used to go infinite (without a lot of work), but can still allow for massive mana pumping...
Anyway, what do you think - is there any promise here? I realize that this will most likely be relegated to casual play only - but would be interested in hearing ways to make it more competitive (if that is even possible). Also, assuming a deck like this is viable at all, what would the sideboard look like?
I also wonder if there are other directions to go with this... e.g., should the arcanist be abandoned completely for being too fragile and focus instead on the ludicrous mana ramp potential? Any feedback would be most appreciated!
I have to say, when I first saw it, I did not see a hedron, but rather the very notation that everyone has been using to represent it: <>
It just so happens that <> is used as a relational operator in many programming languages to represent "not equal to" - this makes sense to me as a representation of not having a color... but maybe that is just bias from having written one too many SQL queries.
That said, I want to note that I think all the other reasons for this interpretation of <> are much stronger than its appearance as arguments -- I just thought it was an interesting coincidence...
The removal of the petals slowed it down a little, but not too bad. The 2-turn win is no longer possible, but that was not really happening anyway. 3-turn still is possible several ways, but you have to draw into all your pieces (with petals, could tutor once and still go off turn 3). That said, it is still possible to tutor 1-3 times and still go off turn four, so can still be rather fast. One thing other than speed the petals gave was the ability to trigger ascendancy once for free to untap for extra mana, or loot before ready to go off. Any 0-cmc non-creature spells that I could add to fill this role? Would only add something if it gave additional utility than just being a free trigger and I can't seem to find something that fits the bill.
Don't know if I would cut a Jeskai Ascendancy as multiples in play add value, by being able to go off with just 1 mana dork without a bounceland. View from above does not give any values in multiples though so might look into cutting 1 of those - having the hasty creatures would certainly be nice!
Thanks again for all of your help!
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Dimir Infiltrator
4x Drift of Phantasms
4x Kiora's Follower
4x Sylvan Caryatid
4x Voyaging Satyr
3x Azorius Chancery
4x City of Brass
3x Izzet Boilerworks
4x Mana Confluence
3x Simic Growth Chamber
Enchantments (4)
4x Jeskai Ascendancy
4x Muddle the Mixture
2x Perplex
4x View from Above
Sorceries (2)
1x Grapeshot
1x Supply // Demand
Artifacts (4)
4x Lotus Petal
*Only need one untap dork if you have a bounceland in play, otherwise need two mana/untap dorks.
Also Note: limited to less than infinite loops by life loss if have to use untap dork with city/confluence, but can still be enough to attack for the kill. Ideally, if you have not played a land the turn you go off, you can loot until you find a bounceland and then put it into play and switch to untapping it for infinite loop.
Transmute to find missing combo piece. Transmute cards can be used as extra creatures / counters when transmute not needed. Supply/Demand can be transmuted into with both 2- and 3-cmc cards. Then Demand can tutor Jeskai or Follower OR can tutor Infiltrator, which can THEN transmute to View.
I know a lot of the established ascendancy decks use Fatestitcher as an untapper, but since my version only really interacts with the graveyard once ascendancy is already on line, I went with guys that could be more consistently hard casted.
Goldfishing, I go off on turn 3 surprisingly often and usually takes no more than 5 turns... theoretically it can go off turn two with a god hand but have yet to actually see that when play testing. Thanks for any feedback!
Don't know how I left out Kudzu - would definitely swap him for the gnarlid in the simic list. Not sure if I would put him in the bant list though as the 1-drop cats might still be stronger - especially since the infinite pump can be done at instant speed so on both turns. Of course, would be nice for the counters to stay even if combo pieces got taken out unlike the pumps. I might put 2 kudzu in and remove 2 angels -- they are great, but higher mana and not as beneficial to have multiples of as the pumpers.
Ruin Ghost really isn't any less cards. Ghost needs one untapped white producing land in play plus coralhelm. Gardener/Scout need one bounce land in hand plus coralhelm. So actually gardener/scout are better since they can go off when you are completely tapped out. Also Ghost does not play well with my mana base at all so that would need to be changed -- bouncelands don't work with him at all and painlands would be, well, painful. Gardener/Scout both use bounce land in hand -- so they work together -- if I have multiples that is just extra triggers to tap a guy or scry. Ghost on the other hand would not play nicely with the others as he needs a different type of land and in a different zone. Also, gardener/Scout help ramp while ghost does not. Actually if anything I might add a couple Walking Atlas since he plays nicely with the others and as I say the more the merrier for extra triggers -- again thought about adding a couple in exchange for removing some angels.
--Edited to add an example--
T1)Plains, Lynx
T2)Island, Ruin Ghost
T3)Forest, Retreat to Coralhelm
T4)Offshoot, Infinite Life + Infinitely Large Lynx
VS.
T1)Brushland, Scout
T2)Lynx, Growth Chamber [Bounce Brush] Tap Scout to replay Brush, Offshoot
T3)Coralhelm, Play Chancery (Bounce Chancery) - tap down opponents creature with 1st trigger. Activate scout (Bouncing and rebouncing Chancery) Infinite Life + Infinitely Large Lynx (facing one less blocker)
Both use 3 lands, 3 Creatures, and Coralhelm but second is in one less turn with an extra landfall trigger to tap down blocker
Here are two very rough versions of my idea so far:
4x Adarkar Wastes
4x Azorius Chancery
4x Brushland
4x Selesnya Sanctuary
4x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Budoka Gardener
4x Drift of Phantasms
4x Emeria Angel
4x Jaddi Offshoot
4x Sakura-Tribe Scout
4x Scythe Leopard
4x Steppe Lynx
4x Deprive
Enchantments (4)
4x Retreat to Coralhelm
8x Forest
8x Island
4x Simic Growth Chamber
4x Thornwood Falls
4x Budoka Gardener
4x Drift of Phantasms
4x Jaddi Offshoot
4x Oboro Breezecaller
4x Sakura-Tribe Scout
4x Scythe Leopard
4x Snapping Gnarlid
4x Deprive
Enchantments (4)
4x Retreat to Coralhelm
Synopsis:
coral helm + bounceland + (gardener or scout) = infinite landfall triggers
OR (in Simic version above)
coralhelm + breeze caller + (gardener or scout) = infinite landfall triggers
If you have the chamber in play with the breeze caller, then you can also repeatedly bounce a land with an enter the battlefield effect (here I have the falls, but I was thinking of something like Piranha Marsh or the new Skyline Cascade).
It can go off as early as turn three with infinite life, an infinitely pumped creature, or an infinite number of bird tokens (the last is more likely to come at turn 4 at the earliest but can happen in 3).
I think the simpler Bant version is probably better, but I like the added tricks you can get with the breeze caller. I do feel like there are just too many bounce lands in the Bant version and not enough in the Simic one so I could probably adjust that. I also really like that the downside of deprive suddenly just adds utility instead and am wondering if I can add some other spells that bounce lands as an additional cost.
Anyway, curious what people think, and yes I realize the aforementioned Knight combo is --far-- superior - but I think this combo should be fun...
Thanks for any help/feedback!
@JimmyMe: Yeah, someone in my play group plays a casual sliver deck that does pretty well. However, I'm afraid I'm addicted to playing ridiculous combos. Strangely enough they do pretty well with my play group, even though they are pretty much all vulnerable to bolt. As Torpf says, the fact that they we play multi-player does help a lot in that regard. For this particular deck the redundancy will be the main thing combating that vulnerability - also the fact that if they try to disrupt me mid-combo, I just need a few mana open to restart the loop with a new spell copy and keep the combo going.
@Torpf : I had considered Diffusion Sliver, but had not thought of Dormant Sliver - I think because I was mainly looking at low cmc slivers - but that might be worth adding.
@clod5 : Thanks again so much - your feedback is really helpful!!! I think I like all your changes, and will definitely need to try them out. I had originally thought about Dual Casting, but wanted more creatures, but by removing most of the non-slivers, you make the shields and the hivestone easy to remove, freeing up more space for creatures (slivers). The one down side to losing Nivix Guildmage is that, when goldfishing, I occasionally sunk extra mana into his first ability to dig for combo pieces.
Sorry about the heart sliver - I think I was looking at that before I decided to make the deck modern and forgot about that... crystalline sliver is the other non-modern sliver I was looking at (also not as budget as the other cards). Blur Sliver still seems pretty strong despite the added cmc. I really do like the efficiency of the druid adding mana for the combo at the same time providing a finisher through ping, but can understand the need to replace him with more slivers. As for land, Ancient Ziggurat seems like the best replacement for bivouac, but would again require spending more money on the deck than I originally budgeted.
Hopefully will get a chance to try the deck with my play group tomorrow - probably will not have time to make any changes yet, but will be interesting to see how it does in real life...
4x Frontier Bivouac
4x Karplusan Forest
4x Shivan Reef
4x Sliver Hive
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Gemhide Sliver
4x Izzet Guildmage
4x Manaweft Sliver
4x Nivix Guildmage
4x Screeching Sliver
4x Zhur-Taa Druid
4x Roar of the Kha
4x Shields of Velis Vel
4x To Arms!
Artifacts (4)
4x Hivestone
When goldfishing, it generally goes off turn 4-6. If it stalls you usually at least have a board full of creatures (albeit weak ones) to stall until the combo comes together. It also has a couple ways of digging (to arms and nivix guildmage). I am wondering what changes to make and/or what I would sideboard. Thinking could set up sideboard to change it to just a basic agro sliver deck - if so what slivers to include? Heart Sliver seems like a a good potential even for the combo version as it could make it go off quicker. I also thought about adding in/ side boarding some X-cost instants that could act as an alternative finisher as well as provide some much needed removal/disruption. The deck can make lots of mana (sometimes infinite, and usually of any color) so x-spells seem like the way to go... I am looking at Comet Storm and Profane Command -- any other possibilities?
Here are a few gold fishing examples to show how it can go off there is so much redundancy that there are tons of ways it can go (so easier to just show some examples:
1 x coast
2 x bivouac
1 x manaweft
1 x izzet
1 x screeching
1 x druid
T1
play bivouac
T2
draw: another izzet
play coast
tap bivouac and coast for 1g
cast manaweft
T3
draw: roar
play bivouac
tap manaweft and bivouac for rg
cast druid
tap coast for u (19 life)
cast screeching
T4
draw: to arms
tap screeching and bivouac for uu
cast izzet
tap manaweft and druid (1 dmg to opponent) for wg
play to arms
to arms resolves, untap creatures, draw gemhide
tap manaweft and bivouac for wu
play roar choosing untap
while roar on stack,
tap coast, druid (1 dmg), screeching for 1gu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
loop x times:
---
tap druid, screeching, manaweft (1 dmg) for guu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
---
Repeat above loop x times, for x dmg to opponent and win
1 x roar
1 x hive
1 x gemhide
1 x arms
1 x izzet
1 x coast
T1
play hive
T2
draw nivix
play coast
tap coast, hive for 1g
cast gemhide
T3
draw another nivix
tap alive, coast for rg (19 life)
cast druid
T4
draw screeching
tap hive for u
cast screeching
tap gem hide coast for uu (18 life)
cast izzet
T5
draw hivestone
tap hive and gemhide for 1w
play roar choosing untap
while roar on stack,
tap coast, druid (1 dmg to opponent), screeching for 1gu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
loop x times:
---
tap druid (1 dmg), screeching, gemhide for guu
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
roar copy resolves, all creatures untap
---
Repeat above loop x times, for x dmg to opponent and win
1 k. forest
1 gem hide
1 to arms
1 shields
1 screeching
1 izzet
T1
play bivouac
T2
draw another bivouac
play k. forest
tap k. forest, bivouac for 1g
cast gemhide
T3
draw another screeching
play bivouac
tap bivouac for u
cast screeching
tap gemhide, forest for ur (19 life)
cast izzet
T4
draw another izzet
tap two bivouacs for uu
cast izzet
tap gemhide for u
cast screech
T5
draw coast
play coast
tap screeching for w
cast shields
tap coast, screeching for 1w
cast to arms
while to arms on stack
tap gemhide, two izzets for uuu
activate izzet first ability, targeting to arms on stack
copy of to arms resolves all creatures untap, draw card
loop following x times (until draw roar)
---
tap gemhide, two screeching, two izzets for wuuuu
activate izzet first ability, targeting to arms on stack
copy of to arms resolves all creatures untap, draw card
---
Repeat above loop x times, for x draws, x blue mana, and x white mana
in this case x=9 times to draw roar
Let original to arms on stack resolve
Use floating mana to cast roar and make first roar copy with izzet ability
then loop following x times
---
tap gemhide, two izzets for uuu
tap two screeching for activated ability making opponent mill twice
activate izzet first ability, targeting roar on stack
copy of roar resolves all creatures untap
---
repeat above loop x times to mill 2x from opponent until decked
Example 1 shows how having extra arms/roars can allow you to net some extra mana and go off a turn earlier (note this would not have even been necessary if I had one more land draw. Also, example 3 can show just how complicated it can get if you are using the mill strategy with arms since you have to switch to roar -- luckily the infinite draw with to arms lets you easily find it...
Anyway, curious as to what people think. Have not yet tried it with my casual group, but probably will next week. Any suggestion / feedback would be most appreciated - thanks!
EDITED TO ADD the following:
Forgot one other finisher - cast the entwined version of roar so each loop pumps all creatures +1/+1 - then send over all your creatures. This is a somewhat conditional finisher as at least one of your guys have to get through, but you are usually talking 4 or more 20+/20+ creatures (albeit non-evasive) so you will probably get through, especially earlier in the game.
I Goldfished the deck 20 times and averaged 6 turns to go off (most common was 5-6 turns). Cases that were 7 +turns were usually when I had to mulligan multiple times (sometimes down to 4 cards).
1x4 turns
8x5 turns
5x6 turns
4x7 turns
1x8 turns
1x9 turns
12 x ping
3 x mill
5 x buffed creatures
I never got a chance to experiment further although I did get some poker chips -- I never actually tried this method on them.
However, I was just recently inspired and tried it on some blank credit cards (yes, you can buy those and they're cheap in bulk). I wanted to see if I could use them to make tokens. So I tried making some spirit tokens for my Forbidden Orchard Deck. I used silver ones since the spirits are colorless (although thanks to the light they look goldish in the pictures).
They come in various colors (including transparent) so may try experimenting further. The image I used for this was taken from a 16th century German engraving. I know it looks a bit more skeleton/zombie like than spirit, but I am tired of people asking me if the tokens have flying so wanted it to be clearly a walker
Anyway let me know what you think and if you have any questions about the process... I found it worked best when you did one at a time - I tried to transfer the ink to multiple cards at once and it did not work as well -- also needed to stick them under something heavy right away or else they got warped from the heat...
And yes I realize I could just print on them directly using an ID card printer, but I don't have access to one of those unfortunately...
Attached are images...
I was curious if anyone has looked at a cheap NON-cantripping auras build... I was thinking something like this:
1x Forest
4x Frontier Bivouac
1x Island
4x Mana Confluence
4x Mystic Monastery
4x Shivan Reef
4x Yavimaya Coast
4x Kiora's Follower
3x Monastery Swiftspear
4x Sylvan Caryatid
3x Triton Cavalry
Enchantment (16)
4x Aqueous Form
4x Jeskai Ascendancy
4x Messenger's Speed
4x Oppressive Rays
4x Retraction Helix
Sorcery (4)
4x Commune with the Gods
Idea is to bounce the same aura over and over again with helix or cavalry (need one aura in hand and one on field for latter). Then Messenger's Speed and/or Aqueous Form makes sure your pumped guy(s) get through. Also even if you can't combo off, you can still cast multiple auras in the same turn to pump guys through Ascendancy (and/or prowess for the Swiftspear) for big hits.
This is mainly for casual play, but wonder if this general approach could be made somewhat competitive... thoughts/ideas???
I like that the auras are much more utilitarian here (rays can be used defensively at first then later as combo piece and other two get you through as mentioned). Thought about other defensive auras like Singing Bell Strike or Pin to the Earth but 2cmc makes them much harder to combo with. Similarly, Karametra's Favor can be used as combo piece or to make a non-dork into a mana dork, but seems too costly at 2cmc.
Could also maybe add other prowess guys or did like the idea mentioned before of Anthousa, Setessan Hero as a 1- or 2-of since she can be both a helix target and a source of multiple mana dorks...
Obviously just throwing somewhat random ideas out there, but thought it might get someone thinking...
I will preface by saying I play casual janky combo decks - so pretty sure I am just making this more convoluted and slower - but what about triton cavalry in a cheap auras build? With two auras you can do an infinite bounce cycle... Like I said pretty sure this is an unnecessary additional complication but just thought I'd throw it out there anyway...
Going to keep following this thread!
The linked thread includes a Reddit AMA where she discusses MTG quite a bit. She also mentions it in a lot (or is that alot?) of her interviews - including this Wired Interview.
Could be used for heroic triggers as well.
Edited to add: Similarly, Gigadrowse outside of Standard.
BnB's scenario has possibility storm in play after an enter the infinite has resolved. The following turn, after your draw there will be no cards in the library so when you cast spiral and it is exiled, there will be no instants to copy so it will be placed in the library as sole card - so when you cast an instant it will copy it...
That is if I am understanding BnB' scenario and your objection correctly - I apologize if I am mistaken.
P.s I'm very intrigued by this deck
I mentioned this synergy / combo in the Theros Combo and Theros Infinite Threads, but here is my first (very rough) attempt at an actual deck.
I should preface this by saying that I only recently got back into Magic after a 15+ year hiatus and my activity since my return has mostly been restricted to limited tournaments or casual kitchen table magic. All that to say, please be gentle on me
4 breeding pool
4 temple of mystery
6 island
6 forest
Creatures (21)
4 axebane guardian
4 elite arcanist
3 sylvan caryatid
3 doorkeeper
3 hover barrier
2 mnemonic wall
2 colossus of akros
3 triton tactics
3 simic charm
3 dissolve
3 sphinx's revelation
3 silence
2 ready / willing
2 volcanic geyser
So there is the possibility of an infinite mana / infininite untap loop. Such as:
Axebane + Arcanist (Tactics exiled) + Doorkeeper
Using the doorkeeper allows for infinite mill as well: loop through untapping the arcanist & guardian for infinite mana, then loop through again with arcanist & doorkeeper to mill them.
Now that combo is obviously very fragile and christmas-landish, but you can pump out a ton of mana even without the infinite loop. Then you can spend the mana on a making a monstrous colossus really early or just a big geyser or sphinx's revelation.
You can also put other spells like simic charm, dissolve, or silence on the arcanist for repeatable fun and can use the simic charm to bounce him if you need to switch spells and use the mnemonic wall to retrieve instants you have used up.
Other possible additions:
Other "copiers" - Nivix Guildmage or Meletis Charlatan
Other walls - Lobber Crew (can be used as finisher in infinite loop), Angelic Wall (more flyer protection), Gatecreeper Vine (more mana ramp), Wall of Frost, etc.
Other X-spells to take advantage of massive mana output - e.g. Curse of the Swine
Other untap instant Burst of Strength - can't really be used to go infinite (without a lot of work), but can still allow for massive mana pumping...
Anyway, what do you think - is there any promise here? I realize that this will most likely be relegated to casual play only - but would be interested in hearing ways to make it more competitive (if that is even possible). Also, assuming a deck like this is viable at all, what would the sideboard look like?
I also wonder if there are other directions to go with this... e.g., should the arcanist be abandoned completely for being too fragile and focus instead on the ludicrous mana ramp potential? Any feedback would be most appreciated!