The problem with being very liberal with unbans is the history behind some of them. Eldrazi winter was brutal: I along with many other players had to live through that disaster and to call it anything less than a disaster is giving a complete disservice to just how bad that point in modern was. The eldrazi decks of the time caused the entirety of modern to warp around their presence and forced competitive players to spring for anything they could find to counter the decks if they weren't playing eldrazi. Worship and even Painter's servant were being considered a lot of the time. Even if there is a chance that Eye of Ugin could exist in some kind of no-ban modern environment, no one is going to be too fond of the idea to unban that card.
Mtggoldfish had a video of 12 post vs Eldrazi winter deck. 12 post stomped. Obviously just one data point but I don't believe eldrazi would be the most powerful thing in no ban modern. Regardless, no ban sounds silly without more powerful answers to things like FOW, Wasteland, etc. There's a reason why permission based decks in legacy all play old permission.
Regardless, without better land destruction, banning eye of ugin was the right call.
Anyways, does anyone else think Storm will be healthy for the format and cause people to run more interaction? Or will people just keep their heads down and try to win before storm can?
Im sorry bro but chess is extremely diverse.. you should read about chess strategies.. there are literally 10000 viable strategies in chess not to mention openers and the first 3 moves i mean honestly you should get into chess and you will radically change that opinion of yours.
You are misunderstanding me. There is a diversity of PLAY in chess but there isn't a diversity of PIECES. Here, remember caw blade? That was one of if not the LEAST diverse format of all time. But, the diversity of PLAY (like chess) was high in caw blade mirror matches, but the diversity in pieces was very low. It's like legacy, there are lots of similar pieces in most decks and only a handful of top decks. This is low diversity. BUT the diversity of PLAY is high.
To drive my point home, look at Go. There is 1 type of piece. It has NO diversity of pieces but has a higher diversity of play than the number of particles in the universe(that's a lot).
So in conclusion DECK diversity is overrated and it is my opinion we should strive for higher PLAY diversity (like in Go, Legacy, Chess, Etc) That's not to say there should be no DECK diversity, just that focusing on that doesn't lead to PLAY diversity.
As an aside and keeping with play diversity being more important than piece diversity, I believe the current iteration of storm should not be banned. The necessary threshold to interact with them is very low and if your deck can't interact you lose on turn 3. This seems like a fitting punishment for decks that don't like to interact. I believe having this boogey man would result in more interactive decks or decks with higher play diversity.
This kind of makes it sound like you want to go back to Eldrazi Winter.
Im sorry bro but chess is extremely diverse.. you should read about chess strategies.. there are literally 10000 viable strategies in chess not to mention openers and the first 3 moves i mean honestly you should get into chess and you will radically change that opinion of yours.
You are misunderstanding me. There is a diversity of PLAY in chess but there isn't a diversity of PIECES. Here, remember caw blade? That was one of if not the LEAST diverse format of all time. But, the diversity of PLAY (like chess) was high in caw blade mirror matches, but the diversity in pieces was very low. It's like legacy, there are lots of similar pieces in most decks and only a handful of top decks. This is low diversity. BUT the diversity of PLAY is high.
To drive my point home, look at Go. There is 1 type of piece. It has NO diversity of pieces but has a higher diversity of play than the number of particles in the universe(that's a lot).
So in conclusion DECK diversity is overrated and it is my opinion we should strive for higher PLAY diversity (like in Go, Legacy, Chess, Etc) That's not to say there should be no DECK diversity, just that focusing on that doesn't lead to PLAY diversity.
As an aside and keeping with play diversity being more important than piece diversity, I believe the current iteration of storm should not be banned. The necessary threshold to interact with them is very low and if your deck can't interact you lose on turn 3. This seems like a fitting punishment for decks that don't like to interact. I believe having this boogey man would result in more interactive decks or decks with higher play diversity.
Also, diversity is overrated. Just look at chess. Great game and basically zero diversity.
By what metric? There's a crazy ton of different openings in the game, even limiting ourselves to good opening moves (i.e. no nonsense like 1.f3).
Different openings doesn't increase diversity. There are 6 different types of pieces one each side. There is literally no diversity in chess. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear but I was implying deck diversity in magic to "deck" diversity in chess. Chess has zero diversity but highly interactive games and these games are fun (assuming you like chess)
It reached the finals in 3 recent SCG opens, winning 2 of them.
We know wizards regrets printing storm much like how they regret dredge.
Now they should probably just ban Grapeshot instead of beating around the bush and banning more cantrips and rituals.
Reason being: if a grapeshot-based deck is ever viable, it makes for a miserable play experience for the opponent.
I sincerely hope they do not ban storm. All you need is creature removal to win. They win on turn 3 if you don't interact. That seems like a low enough barrier of entry to me.
Storm SHOULD be the boogey man, it always has been. I'm gonna hope wotc doesn't have its head in the sand and storm won't be banned. It's so easily hated out by basic interaction (of all colors even) that maybe the format will become more interactive as a result. Also, coming from legacy, I love playing against storm.
Also, diversity is overrated. Just look at chess. Great game and basically zero diversity.
This is kind of embarrassing but I never saw the protection from black thing on Chameleon Colossus lol.
@Davius- Bellower can't get legendary creatures I blame commander for that. Eternal witness and Mwunvuli just seem so good against discard!! I think I'm gonna try it anyways.
As an aside, Bellower is best when drawn naturally since it gets mwunvuli->Titan. With that in mind I'll be keeping in 4 summoner's pacts.
@ Sunny
You're conclusion about bellower is probably correct. I was thinking of some ideas that might work well against death's shadow. Death's shadow has an awful time trying to get through multiple blockers, especially grixis. With this in mind I figured getting a 2 for 1 creature that can get another 2 for 1 might be worth it. Like getting Bellower into sprouting thrinax buys you a lot of turns. Great sable stag is just a wall against grixis. I don't think they have an actual way to kill it and bellower blocks Tasigur.
Cutting pact might be totally wrong for bellower but considering pacts are cut postboard against grixis deaths shadow it seemed ok. If a pact is not cut than yes you would be going through additional hoops to get your bullets but you wouldn't be decreasing the number of ways that you could get your bullets in the first place.
All in all my thinking of bellower was a reaction to grixis death's shadow which comprises a large part of my meta unfortunately
How has academy ruins been for you? I've thought about it but I've never tested.
Hey guys so I've been theory crafting some ideas for Titan and how to improve grindy matchups i.e. Shadow Variants. I figured Woodland Bellower is worth a look and what are some options that it can grab. It can block Tasigur and always brings along an extra body. I've compiled a list of lesser known 3 drops that it can grab that are good cards. I didnt include tracker, courser of kruphix n such since those are pretty obvious. No idea if it'll be any use but some cards might be worth a look. Enjoy!
Please be advised that this list isn't exhaustive and doesn't include legendary stuff except for gardener kinda. Also grixis Shadow literally can't kill great sable stag. I also put a higher weight on deathtouch and regenerate since those effects seem powerful against shadow decks.
My current list is basically Bobby's old list +1 Bellower, +1 Mwonvuli Beast Tracker, +1 Eternal Witness -1 azusa, -1 summoner's pact -1 Batterskull
I've mentioned this before and got totally shut down by people saying it is unrealistic for them to hire people to test modern. My opinion of it is they shouldn't get to claim modern as their own and made ridiculous profit of modern masters sets if they refuse to put any thought into the format themselves. That is obviously on the player base to enforce which is t going to happen; I just think if wizards wants to own modern then they should clearly own it. I think it may help their long term image to hire some people to manage it but they seem to be very short term profit focused at the moment and those views just don't align.
Yeah it kinda sucks how little they test for constructed formats. Like they don't even need a giant team just like 4 people. I guess it has finally caught up with them in standard. Hopefully they'll change and formats will get better
Anyone else think it's crazy that the WHOLE TEAM OF WOTC is devoted to fixing standard? I don't know what goes on there but if they have the whole team devoted to fixing standard, they're doing it wrong. They should have dedicated teams to each format. Anyways, I've come around and I think SFM is worth unbanning. It's obviously powerful and it's "fair" and I feel like we're missing that in modern.
Also, I played Stoneblade for years in Legacy, you get Batterskull about 80% of the time
And how exactly would they "fix" modern? They had the opportunity to manage it... over a decade ago. At this point it's basically a sprawling mess and the best they can do is ban things to make sure stuff doesn't go out of control. The best they can usually do is stop it from degenerating into a turn 3 kill format. I think the format has a lot of room to grow, but it can't do so via the original methods that wizards employed to build the cardpool as what modern needs can not come from standard.
Sorry mate, I think you misread me, I was talking about fixing standard! I just find it bizarre that they would be lacking manpower to write short blurbs about eternal formats in their B/R announcements that's all! I was referring to the lack of anything for eternal formats from the announcements. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything but wizards needs to put more money into R and D of eternal formats that should remain relatively independent from standard.
Anyone else think it's crazy that the WHOLE TEAM OF WOTC is devoted to fixing standard? I don't know what goes on there but if they have the whole team devoted to fixing standard, they're doing it wrong. They should have dedicated teams to each format. Anyways, I've come around and I think SFM is worth unbanning. It's obviously powerful and it's "fair" and I feel like we're missing that in modern.
Also, I played Stoneblade for years in Legacy, you get Batterskull about 80% of the time
Thanks everyone for tips on affinity, it seems like a tricky matchup.
So against storm, I bring in all of my firespouts because it is very hard for them to win without an electromancer or baral (pyroclasm can't kill baral) If they are forced to go off without a mana reducer than they'll need to use the gy more heavily. It's also a slower route so getting a bog is feasible. I also leave in Engineered explosives since they might have to go the ETW route if they can't get a mana reducer to stick. It also does kill their mana reducers somewhat inefficiently. Resolving Ruric Thar is 99% of the time GG. If storm keeps growing in popularity maybe Gaddock Teeg is an option? It stops past in flames and gifts which slows them down dramatically.
It looks like in order to have a positive MU against death's shadow you have to go the grove of the burnwillows build.
@Davius- Those videos were awesome man!! Thanks a lot for those. The commentary was great. I feel like I learned quite a lot from the videos since you explain what you're thinking with the deck and you're good at playing it too.
Does anyone have good advice for affinity? I played against them the other day and the only game I won was a huge grind fest. I'm not sure what to get with primetime. Pre board should I just focus on getting an E.E. and setting it to 2 to deal with plating and ravager? Postboard it seems like the best idea is to bring in sweepers, artifact/enchantment hate, and hornet queen.
Has anyone played grove of the burnwillows list? It seems like it would make the death's shadow matchup at least 50-50 if not favorable. Here's the decklist: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15744&d=296487&f=MO
@Grilled Cheese- You're absolutely right, it's always a cost running anything that doesn't help our combo. We only have 4 flex slots unfortunately and diluting past 4 cards post board has a serious cost. I'll be giving pithing needle a go tonight so hopefully there will be fulminators and gqs lol.
I used to play 4 color gifts and I just loved the toolbox approach to a match so if I can squeeze a trinket mage in somewhere I will.
In my experience with BW Eldrazi Batterskull is the MVP. I don't think I've won a game without that guy or lost a game with the guy. Walking Ballista can do some serious work against their board as well as EE. Postboard I bring in all the sweepers I can, hornet queen and big creatures.
I think next time I play against Skred I'll be doing something similar to what Bobby does in his guide except I'll be putting in Ruric thar. Ruric seems good since skred runs very few creatures and he's still quite castable post Blood Moon and has a much bigger impact too post blood moon than Primetime.
I'm glad to share especially if anyone can get anything out of my reports!
How do people feel with green creatures in their main board to get with pact (besides Azusa, Scout, and Titan)? If you can ramp up with azusa to say a max of 4 or 5 mana with a summoner's pact in hand; will you wait another turn to cast titan or get a creature you can cast that turn? I know this is probably heavily dependent on board state but at the moment I have no alternative green creatures I can get with pact pre board and I'm wondering if I'm missing out on something.
@Grilled Cheese- I'm not trying to be cheeky but needle does hit fulminators in both living end and death's shadow It's prolly not relevant but it also hits Mishra's bauble. According to mtgtop8 GQ is the 3rd most played card in all of modern and as such is the most played land destruction card. Pithing Needle is certainly awful in certain matchups but so isn't a lot of our cards in our sideboards. We want silver bullets a lot of the time since we only care about certain things. Pithing needle seems good against affinity, counters company, eldrazi and tron. It seems pretty good in my meta so I'll be giving it a go. How has Trinket mage been for you? Is it too slow? Any matchups it shines in?
And a report: I went 2-2.
First match was against storm (I won). He won the roll. He played turn 2 goblin electromancer into turn 3 25 damage grapeshot. Game 2 he stumbled on finding an electromancer and I was able to flash in bojuka bog at a key point. I got ruric thar and he scooped. Game 3 was fun. We both cantripped and played land drops for a couple turns, I always left one mana open for my swan song in hand. End of my turn 3 he went ritual, ritual, ritual gifts and I swan songed. A solid 4 for 1. He was visibly shook up from this. I continued playing like a had a counterspell in hand for several more turns and played around remand as much as I could and eventually got my ruric thar (he didn't have remand). He admitted he was trying to play around my non existent counterspells which felt great. I think this might be my favorite matchup (I loved playing against storm in legacy).
Game 2 was against BW Death and Eldrazi or whatever the name is (I lost). He won with multiple Tidehollow scullers and a TKS. Game 2 I won with a batterskull and walking ballista. Game 3 was rough. I misplayed a few times here and he had double GQ. I grabbed a karoo instead of an amulet off of stirrings because I forgot I had a bounce already in hand. I also didn't kill a thalia with a 1/1 ballista when he cast a pithing needle ( he named ballista of course). If i had killed thalia I would've been able to wipe the board with Firspout. Oh well.
Game 3 was againt 8 rack (I won). He mulled to 5 and wasn't able to wreck my hand. Game 2 was fun and I won with a combination of 2/1 vigilant hasty double striking plant tokens and 3/1 vigilant double striking hasty scouts. I never thought I would transmute for a khalni garden not out of desperation.
Game 4 was against Rg Skred (I lost). I had a pretty sweet hand of 2 amulet, azusa, ancient stirrings, serum visions a couple lands. I found another amulet off of stirrings so by turn 2. I had azusa and 3 amulets but no pay off. I had spell pierce on the top of my deck thanks to serum visions so I needed to dodge Blood moon. I did not lol. However, if I drew lots of primetimes I would've won since I had a Vesuva to copy forests and ramp. Didn't happen and I lost. Game 2 I was expecting a grind so I brought in a lot of stuff. I had a lot of answers to things but eventually he got there with a Goblin Rabblemaster. In retrospect I should have brought in Ruric Thar since they run so few creatures. This deck can grind better than us since their skreds just get ridiculous as the game goes on. Anyone have any tips for this match?
Mtggoldfish had a video of 12 post vs Eldrazi winter deck. 12 post stomped. Obviously just one data point but I don't believe eldrazi would be the most powerful thing in no ban modern. Regardless, no ban sounds silly without more powerful answers to things like FOW, Wasteland, etc. There's a reason why permission based decks in legacy all play old permission.
Regardless, without better land destruction, banning eye of ugin was the right call.
Anyways, does anyone else think Storm will be healthy for the format and cause people to run more interaction? Or will people just keep their heads down and try to win before storm can?
Huh? How so?
You are misunderstanding me. There is a diversity of PLAY in chess but there isn't a diversity of PIECES. Here, remember caw blade? That was one of if not the LEAST diverse format of all time. But, the diversity of PLAY (like chess) was high in caw blade mirror matches, but the diversity in pieces was very low. It's like legacy, there are lots of similar pieces in most decks and only a handful of top decks. This is low diversity. BUT the diversity of PLAY is high.
To drive my point home, look at Go. There is 1 type of piece. It has NO diversity of pieces but has a higher diversity of play than the number of particles in the universe(that's a lot).
So in conclusion DECK diversity is overrated and it is my opinion we should strive for higher PLAY diversity (like in Go, Legacy, Chess, Etc) That's not to say there should be no DECK diversity, just that focusing on that doesn't lead to PLAY diversity.
As an aside and keeping with play diversity being more important than piece diversity, I believe the current iteration of storm should not be banned. The necessary threshold to interact with them is very low and if your deck can't interact you lose on turn 3. This seems like a fitting punishment for decks that don't like to interact. I believe having this boogey man would result in more interactive decks or decks with higher play diversity.
Different openings doesn't increase diversity. There are 6 different types of pieces one each side. There is literally no diversity in chess. I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear but I was implying deck diversity in magic to "deck" diversity in chess. Chess has zero diversity but highly interactive games and these games are fun (assuming you like chess)
I sincerely hope they do not ban storm. All you need is creature removal to win. They win on turn 3 if you don't interact. That seems like a low enough barrier of entry to me.
Storm SHOULD be the boogey man, it always has been. I'm gonna hope wotc doesn't have its head in the sand and storm won't be banned. It's so easily hated out by basic interaction (of all colors even) that maybe the format will become more interactive as a result. Also, coming from legacy, I love playing against storm.
Also, diversity is overrated. Just look at chess. Great game and basically zero diversity.
@Davius- Bellower can't get legendary creatures
As an aside, Bellower is best when drawn naturally since it gets mwunvuli->Titan. With that in mind I'll be keeping in 4 summoner's pacts.
You're conclusion about bellower is probably correct. I was thinking of some ideas that might work well against death's shadow. Death's shadow has an awful time trying to get through multiple blockers, especially grixis. With this in mind I figured getting a 2 for 1 creature that can get another 2 for 1 might be worth it. Like getting Bellower into sprouting thrinax buys you a lot of turns. Great sable stag is just a wall against grixis. I don't think they have an actual way to kill it and bellower blocks Tasigur.
Cutting pact might be totally wrong for bellower but considering pacts are cut postboard against grixis deaths shadow it seemed ok. If a pact is not cut than yes you would be going through additional hoops to get your bullets but you wouldn't be decreasing the number of ways that you could get your bullets in the first place.
All in all my thinking of bellower was a reaction to grixis death's shadow which comprises a large part of my meta unfortunately
How has academy ruins been for you? I've thought about it but I've never tested.
List:
Please be advised that this list isn't exhaustive and doesn't include legendary stuff except for gardener kinda. Also grixis Shadow literally can't kill great sable stag. I also put a higher weight on deathtouch and regenerate since those effects seem powerful against shadow decks.
My current list is basically Bobby's old list +1 Bellower, +1 Mwonvuli Beast Tracker, +1 Eternal Witness -1 azusa, -1 summoner's pact -1 Batterskull
Yeah it kinda sucks how little they test for constructed formats. Like they don't even need a giant team just like 4 people. I guess it has finally caught up with them in standard. Hopefully they'll change and formats will get better
Sorry mate, I think you misread me, I was talking about fixing standard! I just find it bizarre that they would be lacking manpower to write short blurbs about eternal formats in their B/R announcements that's all! I was referring to the lack of anything for eternal formats from the announcements. I'm not trying to be snarky or anything but wizards needs to put more money into R and D of eternal formats that should remain relatively independent from standard.
Also, I played Stoneblade for years in Legacy, you get Batterskull about 80% of the time
So against storm, I bring in all of my firespouts because it is very hard for them to win without an electromancer or baral (pyroclasm can't kill baral) If they are forced to go off without a mana reducer than they'll need to use the gy more heavily. It's also a slower route so getting a bog is feasible. I also leave in Engineered explosives since they might have to go the ETW route if they can't get a mana reducer to stick. It also does kill their mana reducers somewhat inefficiently. Resolving Ruric Thar is 99% of the time GG. If storm keeps growing in popularity maybe Gaddock Teeg is an option? It stops past in flames and gifts which slows them down dramatically.
It looks like in order to have a positive MU against death's shadow you have to go the grove of the burnwillows build.
Does anyone have good advice for affinity? I played against them the other day and the only game I won was a huge grind fest. I'm not sure what to get with primetime. Pre board should I just focus on getting an E.E. and setting it to 2 to deal with plating and ravager? Postboard it seems like the best idea is to bring in sweepers, artifact/enchantment hate, and hornet queen.
Has anyone played grove of the burnwillows list? It seems like it would make the death's shadow matchup at least 50-50 if not favorable. Here's the decklist:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15744&d=296487&f=MO
I used to play 4 color gifts and I just loved the toolbox approach to a match so if I can squeeze a trinket mage in somewhere I will.
In my experience with BW Eldrazi Batterskull is the MVP. I don't think I've won a game without that guy or lost a game with the guy. Walking Ballista can do some serious work against their board as well as EE. Postboard I bring in all the sweepers I can, hornet queen and big creatures.
I think next time I play against Skred I'll be doing something similar to what Bobby does in his guide except I'll be putting in Ruric thar. Ruric seems good since skred runs very few creatures and he's still quite castable post Blood Moon and has a much bigger impact too post blood moon than Primetime.
I'm glad to share especially if anyone can get anything out of my reports!
How do people feel with green creatures in their main board to get with pact (besides Azusa, Scout, and Titan)? If you can ramp up with azusa to say a max of 4 or 5 mana with a summoner's pact in hand; will you wait another turn to cast titan or get a creature you can cast that turn? I know this is probably heavily dependent on board state but at the moment I have no alternative green creatures I can get with pact pre board and I'm wondering if I'm missing out on something.
And a report: I went 2-2.
First match was against storm (I won). He won the roll. He played turn 2 goblin electromancer into turn 3 25 damage grapeshot. Game 2 he stumbled on finding an electromancer and I was able to flash in bojuka bog at a key point. I got ruric thar and he scooped. Game 3 was fun. We both cantripped and played land drops for a couple turns, I always left one mana open for my swan song in hand. End of my turn 3 he went ritual, ritual, ritual gifts and I swan songed. A solid 4 for 1. He was visibly shook up from this. I continued playing like a had a counterspell in hand for several more turns and played around remand as much as I could and eventually got my ruric thar (he didn't have remand). He admitted he was trying to play around my non existent counterspells which felt great. I think this might be my favorite matchup (I loved playing against storm in legacy).
Game 2 was against BW Death and Eldrazi or whatever the name is (I lost). He won with multiple Tidehollow scullers and a TKS. Game 2 I won with a batterskull and walking ballista. Game 3 was rough. I misplayed a few times here and he had double GQ. I grabbed a karoo instead of an amulet off of stirrings because I forgot I had a bounce already in hand. I also didn't kill a thalia with a 1/1 ballista when he cast a pithing needle ( he named ballista of course). If i had killed thalia I would've been able to wipe the board with Firspout. Oh well.
Game 3 was againt 8 rack (I won). He mulled to 5 and wasn't able to wreck my hand. Game 2 was fun and I won with a combination of 2/1 vigilant hasty double striking plant tokens and 3/1 vigilant double striking hasty scouts. I never thought I would transmute for a khalni garden not out of desperation.
Game 4 was against Rg Skred (I lost). I had a pretty sweet hand of 2 amulet, azusa, ancient stirrings, serum visions a couple lands. I found another amulet off of stirrings so by turn 2. I had azusa and 3 amulets but no pay off. I had spell pierce on the top of my deck thanks to serum visions so I needed to dodge Blood moon. I did not lol. However, if I drew lots of primetimes I would've won since I had a Vesuva to copy forests and ramp. Didn't happen and I lost. Game 2 I was expecting a grind so I brought in a lot of stuff. I had a lot of answers to things but eventually he got there with a Goblin Rabblemaster. In retrospect I should have brought in Ruric Thar since they run so few creatures. This deck can grind better than us since their skreds just get ridiculous as the game goes on. Anyone have any tips for this match?