Me and SPC actually communicated and tested together a ton! Because no one else would listen to us! Great post though Lantern. That's exactly the type of actual data I needed to see. Some of what you showed is more of the all-in gifts list, but some of them are in fact Mancer Gifts lists!!
Doing some solid testing without Revival after seeing so many lists top without it. The idea of replacing it with Warrens, so if for some reason you can't outright kill, you can still get an army of Goblins, is a pretty dang good idea actually.
In more controlling versions Revival can be an amazing tool, but i'm warming up to the idea of completely removing it from the straight UR list.
Spell Pierce is a card that's either AMAZING, or terrible, with really no in between, so i'm pretty torn on it. I need a lot more testing to make a solid decision there though.
Scroll is very good in this deck, and being able to search for Gifts, Counterspells, Echoing Truth is super powerful.
I was trying a 1 of Peer just to get a feeling for it again, and it definitely is a great card here. It's just a matter of finding the right numbers.
The sideboard is literally constantly changing with pretty much every series of testing I try. A lot fo that is Meta dependent. Im seeing so much variety in the sideboards of the lists that are topping, it's very hard to tell what the best options are. I see people running Unburial Rights in the board, but that seems to clash somewhat with our gameplan, as most likely the opponent will side in grave hate, so siding into another grave combo seems kind of redundant. I do like the idea of t3 locking burn out of the game though, as that is still one of our worst match ups. Does anyone have more experience with Rights?
Finkel was running Mentor in his board, and I have to attest, after significant testing with the URw Ritual Gifts list me and Kathal has been developing, Mentor is very good in this deck, and can pretty easily take over games single handidly. The entire deck has tremendous synergy with him, and provides another way to combo out for the win.
What do you guys think of Madcap Experiment in the board?
After years of the community dismissing and attacking me. It matters a lot to me. I have a lot of pride in the work i've done with this deck, and it's been my baby for years despite people telling me it wasn't any good. There's a strong sense of satisfaction in seeing your ideas, that we're widely dismissed, finally coming to fruition, and people finally seeing the power in the concept.
But ill leave it at that.
Sorry for disrupting deck development. I just had to get that off my chest.
No one even believed me that Gifts Ungiven was good AT ALL. I was openly mocked for playing Gifts in UR Storm on a regular basis.
My version has ALWAYS been good, it's just that no one gave it a chance. If you click on the links I provided and read the replies from other users, I was categorically being attacked, and dismissed for my ideas.
Again, prove to me there was anything like my list before mine.
Once Song was banned, Ritual Gifts, and All-In Gifts either dramatically changed, or became completely non-existent. Making Gifts 2 mana has nothing to do with anything, and my original list had already dropped Probes 2 and a half years before it was even banned. The original UR Storm lists, that go off in a similar manner to High Tide, and reliance on Ascension, make Probes extremely good. The efficiency and guaranteed win of the Gifts loops, mean you never really needed the Probes in this list.
I'm pretty confident I was the first person to champion the idea of using mana reducers with the left over weaker rituals to power Gifts loops. If you can prove me wrong, then do it, and i'll happily retract my statements.
I also swapped Ascension with Curious Homunculus with the printing of Homunculus, further cementing the concept of Mana reducers to power up weaker Rituals into Gifts loops. Which obviously eventually gets swapped for Baral, which leads us to where we are today.
It's not just that I believe I came up with the concept, it's that no one believed the concept even worked.
I'm not talking about Ritual Gifts. Or UR Storm. Or the All-in Gifts Storm lists that were played in the very beginning of Modern, without any mana reducer or Ascension.
I'm specifically talking about the concept of using Mana Reducers with Gifts to power out Ritual loops with weaker rituals. Replace Ascension, with Baral, in that list and it's nearly identical to whats becoming popular now.
Prove to me, there's a list anywhere like that before mine. I've done extensive Google searches and can't find anything like it. I've also been apart of the storm community on MTGS since I signed up to the site in 2013, and have been following all the threads, and haven't seen anything like it.
And it does mean a lot to me, because I've tried to get people into this concept for years, and every one told me over and over and over its a trash idea, and a waste of time. That Storm is "solved" and there's only 1 way to play the deck. 3 years later and everyone is playing it. So I guess it wasn't such a trash idea after all. I understand that it became better with meta shifts, and new printings, but the core concept is still the same.
Again, i'm not trying to be cocky, or brag, or anything like that. But when you work on something for years and everyone dismisses it, and then it becomes the go to concept that everyone is playing & working on, it does feel gratifying to see your ideas finally come to fruition.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. So i'm sorry if it comes off like that. I love all you guys, and hope we can Make Storm Great Again.
I wish people would mention MTGS more often. So many decks are brewed and devoloped on this site, but we rarely ever get the credit for all the work we put in.
Oh well... That's a great post though. Some really good info provided by Frenchy there.
Man that video with Finkel was rough to watch. He's obviously very very new to Gifts in storm. Still cool to see him picking it up though. Guys a Magic wizard, and im sure once he gets some reps into it, and works some of that Finkel magic, some good stuff could come out of it! So that will be cool to see.
Also, as much as I love seeing this deck get popular, part of me does get slightly bummed out. This deck has been my baby for years. I'm sure some Pro will get credit for "inventing" Gifts Storm, but i've been playing lists like this for almost 3 years now, and never saw anything like it before mine. I'm not trying to brag, though i'm sure it comes off like that, but for my own sanity, here's my first list from all the way back in Aug 10, 2014
Obviously the new lists are a bit different, but i'm pretty sure I was the first person to come up with this concept. Even playing more Mancers over Ascension because of how good he is with Gifts.
Not really though. UR Storm, even with Gifts, is all in, with maxed Ritual and zero interaction.
Ritual Gifts takes a more calculated approach running interaction, more versatility, and uses Gifts to set up the combo, rather than just pumping tons of Rituals into it.
2 Ritual + Morphose + Gifts + Electromancer in hand. 3 Lands in play. Opponent is tapped out.
Cast Mancer - 1 Mana
Ritual, Ritual, Morphose - 6 mana
Gifts for (Rit, Rit, Morph, Pif)- 3 mana
**Opp gives you Morph + PIF**
Morphose - 4 mana
PIF - 1 mana
Ritual, Ritual, Rit, Rit, Morph, Morph - 11 mana
Gifts for (Rit, Rit, Morph, Shot) - 8 mana
**Opp gives you Morph + Rit**
Ritual, Morph - 11 mana
Pif - 8 mana
Rit, Rit, Morph - 13 mana
Grapeshot for 21 damage
--------------------------------
Mancer in play. 2 lands in play. Ritual + Ritual + Gifts in hand. Opp is tapped out.
Ritual, Ritual - 6 mana
Gifts for (Rit,Rit,Morph,Pif) - 3 mana
**Opp gives you Morph + PIF**
Morph - 4 mana
Pif - 1 mana
Rit,Rit,Rit,Rit, Morph - 10 mana
Gifts for (Rit,Rit,Morph,Shot) - 7 mana
**Opp gives you Rit + Morph**
Rit, Morph - 10 mana
Pif - 7 mana
Rit, Rit, Morph - 12 mana
Grapeshot for 18 damage
I'm planning a rewrite of the primer. For now the info I have is the basic Gifts pile is rit, rit, Manamorphose, Past with 3 mana floating. At the end of it you'll flashback Gifts. Then if Past is in your graveyard you get rit, rit, Manamorphose, Grapeshot, or if it isn't, rit, rit, Past, Grapeshot. At the bare minimum you'll Grapeshot for 11-13 damage, but in all cases you have 4 or so spare mana to cast other spells to build storm, or to get Empty instead of Grapeshot. If you had any rituals other than those that you got with the first Gifts, you can flash them back before flashing Gifts too.
This is why you need Revival.
There's no way a resolved Gifts on just 3 left over mana will net you a win without it, unless your grave is staaaacked full of cards.
Is this why you guys are playing Thought Scour? To try and fill the gave to build more storm for a lethal Shot?
What do you need for a turn 3 win in the lists without Revival?
Good argument Morimacil, you make some great points. They are definitely different decks, and thus require different strategies.
I still think my perspective is at least worth learning about, and paying attention to. Ive stormed out with Gifts in so many different shells at this point over the years. There's not many active users with as much experience with Gifts in storm as me. The more testing of different ideas, and better understanding of mechanics, the better for everyone.
It is worth noting, even the current iteration of the more midrangey Ritual Gifts list me and Kathal have been playing can still win t3, just not nearly as frequently, but can pump out t4 wins pretty decently.
Jace's Sanctum needs to be played to understand how good it is.
I scoffed at Sanctum for a long time, till I finally said "F-it" and gave it a shot.
It's really incredibly surprising how many games that card has won me.
That being said, It may just be better in a more midrangey/control shell, than an all-in UR mancer shell.
I can still remember, when you basically rolled your eyes about this card and just because I run it (and reported it) you had to test it
Oh for sure. I mean you made good points about it, but it's hard to see it's effectiveness until you actually play with it.
On that same token though, I remember you basically rolling your eyes at the Mancer/Homunculus plan in Ritual Gifts when I first showed the original UR list I was testing!
Been doing some Cockatrice testing lately, but just a few random games here and there when I had time. I haven't had enough free time to get a solid series in and do a mini report, but I am still playing. Work has been a lil hectic and I havent had the time I thought I would.
I have came to the conclusion Shreds of Sanity isn't playable though. It's a great card to finish the combo, but I somehow overlooked the fact that when you cast it, it gets exiled... So the entire point of having something more versatile than PIF is completely negated, because you literally can't play it outside the combo, or it's gone, and you won't be able to finish with it.
Hero of Bladehold is beast though. The opponent needs to deal with him immediately, or build a big enough board presence to prevent its offense. Either way once she resolves, the opponent needs to do something about it, which at the very least slows down their own gameplan, and at its best just runs away with games. Been playing Geist also and it's been a little more hit or miss. It either ends the game, or sits there unable to attack through your opponents creature.
Anyone else still doing any testing?? I know I can't be the only one still pushing this.
Im with Kathal 100%, and that's the main reason i've been testing, and playing the URw Combo/Control/Midrange version. The deck is just insanely versatile. On paper it probably just looks like a pile of cards, but the deck has absurd synergy and versatility in play.
Also worth noting, the white splash gives you the best sideboard options by far.
Anyway here's my latest list:
4 Goblin Electromancer
4 Gifts Ungiven
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Peer Through Depths
3 Remand
2 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
1 Echoing Truth
3 Desperate Ritual
3 Pyretic Ritual
2 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Grapeshot
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Blood Moon
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Dispel
1 Pact of Negation
1 Echoing Truth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Empty the Warrens
Doing some solid testing without Revival after seeing so many lists top without it. The idea of replacing it with Warrens, so if for some reason you can't outright kill, you can still get an army of Goblins, is a pretty dang good idea actually.
In more controlling versions Revival can be an amazing tool, but i'm warming up to the idea of completely removing it from the straight UR list.
Spell Pierce is a card that's either AMAZING, or terrible, with really no in between, so i'm pretty torn on it. I need a lot more testing to make a solid decision there though.
Scroll is very good in this deck, and being able to search for Gifts, Counterspells, Echoing Truth is super powerful.
I was trying a 1 of Peer just to get a feeling for it again, and it definitely is a great card here. It's just a matter of finding the right numbers.
The sideboard is literally constantly changing with pretty much every series of testing I try. A lot fo that is Meta dependent. Im seeing so much variety in the sideboards of the lists that are topping, it's very hard to tell what the best options are. I see people running Unburial Rights in the board, but that seems to clash somewhat with our gameplan, as most likely the opponent will side in grave hate, so siding into another grave combo seems kind of redundant. I do like the idea of t3 locking burn out of the game though, as that is still one of our worst match ups. Does anyone have more experience with Rights?
Finkel was running Mentor in his board, and I have to attest, after significant testing with the URw Ritual Gifts list me and Kathal has been developing, Mentor is very good in this deck, and can pretty easily take over games single handidly. The entire deck has tremendous synergy with him, and provides another way to combo out for the win.
What do you guys think of Madcap Experiment in the board?
But ill leave it at that.
Sorry for disrupting deck development. I just had to get that off my chest.
My version has ALWAYS been good, it's just that no one gave it a chance. If you click on the links I provided and read the replies from other users, I was categorically being attacked, and dismissed for my ideas.
Again, prove to me there was anything like my list before mine.
Once Song was banned, Ritual Gifts, and All-In Gifts either dramatically changed, or became completely non-existent. Making Gifts 2 mana has nothing to do with anything, and my original list had already dropped Probes 2 and a half years before it was even banned. The original UR Storm lists, that go off in a similar manner to High Tide, and reliance on Ascension, make Probes extremely good. The efficiency and guaranteed win of the Gifts loops, mean you never really needed the Probes in this list.
I'm pretty confident I was the first person to champion the idea of using mana reducers with the left over weaker rituals to power Gifts loops. If you can prove me wrong, then do it, and i'll happily retract my statements.
I also swapped Ascension with Curious Homunculus with the printing of Homunculus, further cementing the concept of Mana reducers to power up weaker Rituals into Gifts loops. Which obviously eventually gets swapped for Baral, which leads us to where we are today.
It's not just that I believe I came up with the concept, it's that no one believed the concept even worked.
I'm specifically talking about the concept of using Mana Reducers with Gifts to power out Ritual loops with weaker rituals. Replace Ascension, with Baral, in that list and it's nearly identical to whats becoming popular now.
Prove to me, there's a list anywhere like that before mine. I've done extensive Google searches and can't find anything like it. I've also been apart of the storm community on MTGS since I signed up to the site in 2013, and have been following all the threads, and haven't seen anything like it.
*Edit*
After doing even more forum, and google searching I realized I posted my original list even earlier than I had thought
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-proven/511602-ur-storm-5-2013-7-2014?page=40#c800
And had been arguing with people over the Power of Gifts in UR Storm for about a year before that even. The people in the Ritual Gifts thread dismissed my ideas, AND the UR Storm threads dismissed my ideas.
And it does mean a lot to me, because I've tried to get people into this concept for years, and every one told me over and over and over its a trash idea, and a waste of time. That Storm is "solved" and there's only 1 way to play the deck. 3 years later and everyone is playing it. So I guess it wasn't such a trash idea after all. I understand that it became better with meta shifts, and new printings, but the core concept is still the same.
Again, i'm not trying to be cocky, or brag, or anything like that. But when you work on something for years and everyone dismisses it, and then it becomes the go to concept that everyone is playing & working on, it does feel gratifying to see your ideas finally come to fruition.
I'm not trying to offend anyone. So i'm sorry if it comes off like that. I love all you guys, and hope we can Make Storm Great Again.
I wish people would mention MTGS more often. So many decks are brewed and devoloped on this site, but we rarely ever get the credit for all the work we put in.
Oh well... That's a great post though. Some really good info provided by Frenchy there.
Also, as much as I love seeing this deck get popular, part of me does get slightly bummed out. This deck has been my baby for years. I'm sure some Pro will get credit for "inventing" Gifts Storm, but i've been playing lists like this for almost 3 years now, and never saw anything like it before mine. I'm not trying to brag, though i'm sure it comes off like that, but for my own sanity, here's my first list from all the way back in Aug 10, 2014
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/564710-ur-storm?page=6#c144
4 Goblin Electromancer
3 Pyromancer Ascension
-Search-
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Peer through Depths
3 Gifts Ungiven
-Ritual-
4 Manamorphose
3 Pyretic Ritual
3 Desperate Ritual
-Disruption-
4 Remand
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Past in Flames
1 Noxious Revival
1 Grapeshot
-Land-
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Shivan Reef
3 Steam Vents
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Blood Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
3 Spell Pierce
3 Echoing Truth
2 Empty the Warrens
2 Shatterstorm
Obviously the new lists are a bit different, but i'm pretty sure I was the first person to come up with this concept. Even playing more Mancers over Ascension because of how good he is with Gifts.
Not really though. UR Storm, even with Gifts, is all in, with maxed Ritual and zero interaction.
Ritual Gifts takes a more calculated approach running interaction, more versatility, and uses Gifts to set up the combo, rather than just pumping tons of Rituals into it.
Cast Mancer - 1 Mana
Ritual, Ritual, Morphose - 6 mana
Gifts for (Rit, Rit, Morph, Pif)- 3 mana
**Opp gives you Morph + PIF**
Morphose - 4 mana
PIF - 1 mana
Ritual, Ritual, Rit, Rit, Morph, Morph - 11 mana
Gifts for (Rit, Rit, Morph, Shot) - 8 mana
**Opp gives you Morph + Rit**
Ritual, Morph - 11 mana
Pif - 8 mana
Rit, Rit, Morph - 13 mana
Grapeshot for 21 damage
--------------------------------
Mancer in play. 2 lands in play. Ritual + Ritual + Gifts in hand. Opp is tapped out.
Ritual, Ritual - 6 mana
Gifts for (Rit,Rit,Morph,Pif) - 3 mana
**Opp gives you Morph + PIF**
Morph - 4 mana
Pif - 1 mana
Rit,Rit,Rit,Rit, Morph - 10 mana
Gifts for (Rit,Rit,Morph,Shot) - 7 mana
**Opp gives you Rit + Morph**
Rit, Morph - 10 mana
Pif - 7 mana
Rit, Rit, Morph - 12 mana
Grapeshot for 18 damage
--------------------------------
I think that's right.
This is why you need Revival.
There's no way a resolved Gifts on just 3 left over mana will net you a win without it, unless your grave is staaaacked full of cards.
Is this why you guys are playing Thought Scour? To try and fill the gave to build more storm for a lethal Shot?
What do you need for a turn 3 win in the lists without Revival?
Artifact win is TERRIBLE.
I still think my perspective is at least worth learning about, and paying attention to. Ive stormed out with Gifts in so many different shells at this point over the years. There's not many active users with as much experience with Gifts in storm as me. The more testing of different ideas, and better understanding of mechanics, the better for everyone.
It is worth noting, even the current iteration of the more midrangey Ritual Gifts list me and Kathal have been playing can still win t3, just not nearly as frequently, but can pump out t4 wins pretty decently.
If you sit down across from an Azami player, you better be ready to get comboed out on... every. single. time.
Ad Nauseam is going to be the premier instant speed combo.
But Griselbrand lists, and Necrotic Ooze lists can win instant speed also.
Bubble Hulk can also win instant speed. It's worth noting the combo is actually immune to removal as well, despite being a creature based combo.
Outside of those though, I don't think any other combo can win entirely instant speed.
Oh for sure. I mean you made good points about it, but it's hard to see it's effectiveness until you actually play with it.
On that same token though, I remember you basically rolling your eyes at the Mancer/Homunculus plan in Ritual Gifts when I first showed the original UR list I was testing!
Been doing some Cockatrice testing lately, but just a few random games here and there when I had time. I haven't had enough free time to get a solid series in and do a mini report, but I am still playing. Work has been a lil hectic and I havent had the time I thought I would.
I have came to the conclusion Shreds of Sanity isn't playable though. It's a great card to finish the combo, but I somehow overlooked the fact that when you cast it, it gets exiled... So the entire point of having something more versatile than PIF is completely negated, because you literally can't play it outside the combo, or it's gone, and you won't be able to finish with it.
Hero of Bladehold is beast though. The opponent needs to deal with him immediately, or build a big enough board presence to prevent its offense. Either way once she resolves, the opponent needs to do something about it, which at the very least slows down their own gameplan, and at its best just runs away with games. Been playing Geist also and it's been a little more hit or miss. It either ends the game, or sits there unable to attack through your opponents creature.
Anyone else still doing any testing?? I know I can't be the only one still pushing this.
Also worth noting, the white splash gives you the best sideboard options by far.