Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
This is why I keep thinking that Grixis Madcap/Emperion and Esper Gifts are probably stronger Control decks than results would indicate. Both of them have strong removal suites, can drop a game-threatening win-con that the opponent has to kill by turns 4-5, and have access to Logic Knot, which should still be enough to protect Platinum Emperion, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, or a similar card from removal.
Khans and RTR standard where both popular not because control was good but because mana was good and the formats allowed for 3 color good stuff decks which is essentially what Esper dragons was
That's not even close to describing Esper Dragons. It ran 8-10 counterspells, board wipes, sac spells, card draw, and had to be highly synergistic with many of the card choices. It was a control deck that eventually tapped out to play a finisher, then protected its finisher with counterspells and removal. How in the world is this "3 color good stuff"??? Good Stuff decks are full of individually powerful cards that stand on their own. Abzan was a good stuff deck, Esper Dragons was not.
Additionally, Esper Dragons was an effective control deck because it had fairly good tools to deal with most threats. It had hard counters at 2cmc and the 3cmc counter allowed scry. Many of the lands also scry'd. The main board wipe did not kill the main win condition, which had conditional hexproof. And it had Dig Through Time in order to stabilize itself in the mid to late game. The deck was great until literal "Good Stuff.dec" became the norm, and Abzan splashed 4 colors for Crackling Doom main deck.
Modern could greatly benefit from a deck like this. A deck that plays some answers, drops a proactive, game-threatening win condition, and then protects it while it refuels. A vanilla 4/5 beatstick isn't going to get the job done, our counterspell suite is extremely narrow, our card draw is embarrassingly anemic, and we struggle to win games in a timely manner.
The new dusk//dawn might be able to help. Geist of saint traft is a great finisher and is mostly stopped by the prevalence of goyf with a conditional wipe to get rid of good blocks could work.
Maybe, (and it also would definitely help against decks like Bant Eldrazi), but Geist still won't be able to get through against decks like Affinity and Abzan Company. I just wish that there was a 4-mana boardwipe in white or black that destroyed all creatures with CMC 2 or less. That would be perfect for Geist and would let it get through against very deck except for Bant Eldrazi and Tron.
We probably never will. When was the last one? Mana Leak? From M12? And even Leak isn't amazing.
I think we will eventually. They keep making, and pushing 3 CMC counters and haven't managed to make a playable one yet. Eventually I think they'll give up and make another 2 mana counter. It will probably have some sort of downside though.
returning spells on the stack to their owners hands seems to be the new "counterspell" that WotC is attempting to push as playable. This is like Unsubstantiate are the new 2cc vanilla counters
Hey, maybe if they push it a little more we'll get Memory Lapse.
I still think Shape Anew and to an extent madcap Experiment is a great engine that needs something. I think Madcap is played in Ponza right now though.
Why didn't Madcap Experiment work out like people expected it to? A 4-mana 8/8 that dodges most removal and that stops several decks from being able to win the game still seems pretty good.
I think it was too inconsistent. That said, they can probably combine the two and get the Emperiorn out faster and stronger. Shape anew things that create artifact tokens instead of having artifacts in there. Things for the Shape Anew part like Pia Nalaar
It is inconsistent when you are viewing it like that, but if you just view it as a strong 4-drop in a midrange deck or a finisher in a control deck, it still is a really good card.
maybe this is one of the reasons for Reflector Mage's ban. Since it was expected for BFZ to rotate but with rotations changes they thoughty that Reflector mage with this would be far too opressive.
You give them way too much credit I think, honestly.
Probably. Still trying to udnerstand why they did it.
Being able to curve Reflector Mage into Felidar Guardian probably was one of the reasons.
Harm's Way is a personal favorite of mine. It is one of the reasons (along with Geist of Saint Traft and Dig Through Time providing a better mid-late game) why I think Jeskai Delver with Dig Through Time was secretly the best deck during the Treasure Cruise era. Harm's Way saved all of your creatures from removal. It was a 1-mana Lightning Helix. It killed every creature in Burn and other Delver decks. It was amazing back then.
Emerge Unscathed was also a fun card in Jeskai Delver in that era. Birthing Pod matchups were almost impossible back then, but Emerge allowed you to get multiple hits in with Geist of Saint Traft unblocked, which made it possible to actually win the game. It was also sweet with Young Pyromancer.
I still think Shape Anew and to an extent madcap Experiment is a great engine that needs something. I think Madcap is played in Ponza right now though.
Why didn't Madcap Experiment work out like people expected it to? A 4-mana 8/8 that dodges most removal and that stops several decks from being able to win the game still seems pretty good.
As Foretold
2U
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a time counter on As Foretold.
Once each turn, you may pay 0 rather than pay the mana cost for a spell you cast with converted mana cost X or less, where X is the number of time counters on As Foretold.
I could see this going either direction. I guess I would say I'm hopeful, but skeptical. The card does things I like. Casting Suspend cards is huge, and free mana is always dangerous. On the other hand, it doesn't start ticking up until T3 and even at that point requires several turns before it's really going to offer up a payoff. It's like an Aether Vial for anything, but how often does a T3 Aether Vial actually pan out well? Then consider that this means tapping out on T3 without affecting the board. It seems to me like a card built for control mirrors.
While this is true, this does allow one to cast Ancestral Vision, Restore Balance, and other 0-mana cards on the turn that it is played, unlike Aether Vial.
While that would have been nice, it is still a decent removal spell. I'd say that it is comparable to Roast in Standard. The only problem is that Roast wouldn't be great in the current Standard either because of Copycat and Mardu Vehicles being able to dodge most sorcery-speed removal.
This makes me wonder why more people aren't running discard outlets like Key to the City with Alchemist's Greeting--4 damage at instant speed for R1 to a creature should be really good but we simply aren't seeing it.
That is a good point. Maybe it is just too hard to consistently pull off?
Apparently nobody in this thread knows what the word "strictly" means. It has a fairly strict definition. If this could only target yourself, then yes, it would be strictly worse than Night's Whisper and Read the Bones (but would still be more usable than Sign In Blood in some odd corner cases).
The Cut half of Cut to Ribbons feels like another sorcery that should have been instant tbh
Love all of the art but not super hot on the effects
While that would have been nice, it is still a decent removal spell. I'd say that it is comparable to Roast in Standard. The only problem is that Roast wouldn't be great in the current Standard either because of Copycat and Mardu Vehicles being able to dodge most sorcery-speed removal.
Dammit. Can we just resign ourselves at this point to the fact that Wizards will never print another Modern-playable counterspell?
I'm glad it's not in, I don't get the fuss, it would be a barely passable card I would think, certainly no better than Mana Leak. Counters that your opponent can pay a small amount of mana to stop are not what late game decks need. we need a conditional hard counter, like Deprive. i would honestly rather have a Spell Snare reprint. this not being in the set just means that there is room for something better
I'd definitely play it over Mana Leak. It can still counter everything for the first few turns, and unlike Mana Leak, it is still usable after that.
Cast Out also has the advantage of being too expensive to hit with Abrupt Decay. I could see it being played instead of Detention Sphere in some WU control decks in Modern.
This is why I keep thinking that Grixis Madcap/Emperion and Esper Gifts are probably stronger Control decks than results would indicate. Both of them have strong removal suites, can drop a game-threatening win-con that the opponent has to kill by turns 4-5, and have access to Logic Knot, which should still be enough to protect Platinum Emperion, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn, or a similar card from removal.
Maybe, (and it also would definitely help against decks like Bant Eldrazi), but Geist still won't be able to get through against decks like Affinity and Abzan Company. I just wish that there was a 4-mana boardwipe in white or black that destroyed all creatures with CMC 2 or less. That would be perfect for Geist and would let it get through against very deck except for Bant Eldrazi and Tron.
Hey, maybe if they push it a little more we'll get Memory Lapse.
It is inconsistent when you are viewing it like that, but if you just view it as a strong 4-drop in a midrange deck or a finisher in a control deck, it still is a really good card.
Being able to curve Reflector Mage into Felidar Guardian probably was one of the reasons.
WU
Instant
Return target spell to its owner's hand. Until your next turn, that player can't cast spells with that name.
Emerge Unscathed was also a fun card in Jeskai Delver in that era. Birthing Pod matchups were almost impossible back then, but Emerge allowed you to get multiple hits in with Geist of Saint Traft unblocked, which made it possible to actually win the game. It was also sweet with Young Pyromancer.
Why didn't Madcap Experiment work out like people expected it to? A 4-mana 8/8 that dodges most removal and that stops several decks from being able to win the game still seems pretty good.
While this is true, this does allow one to cast Ancestral Vision, Restore Balance, and other 0-mana cards on the turn that it is played, unlike Aether Vial.
That is a good point. Maybe it is just too hard to consistently pull off?
I have literally never heard the expression "Cut the Ribbons" anywhere. In addition, that phrase would make no logical sense.
It is still basically strictly worse than Toil // Trouble.
While that would have been nice, it is still a decent removal spell. I'd say that it is comparable to Roast in Standard. The only problem is that Roast wouldn't be great in the current Standard either because of Copycat and Mardu Vehicles being able to dodge most sorcery-speed removal.
I'd definitely play it over Mana Leak. It can still counter everything for the first few turns, and unlike Mana Leak, it is still usable after that.
Dammit. Can we just resign ourselves at this point to the fact that Wizards will never print another Modern-playable counterspell?