If your build of junk doesn't typically try to the swarm the board, voice probably isn't the right choice for your deck, except for maybe as a sideboard option. If you are going for the aggro plan, then maybe so. Otherwise, I wouldn't recommend voice.
Junk aggro is a thing, too. qasali pridemages, voice, wiltleaf leiges, etc. on top of everything we're already playing can make a huge beat down.
The Rock is based in Black, you're talking about GW Hatebears with a black splash for lingering souls and probably deathrite shaman which Voice is great in, Voice is still best in Pod though.
The Rock is neither an aggro nor defensive deck but it can try to play both roles in different situations, the deck does tilt towards defensive.
The Tron and Affinity argument is clearly a case of your local metagame being skewed towards those decks. Decks like Tron were built to beat decks like Junk. I'd play something else if Tron was more popular.
I don't know how you feel, but I'm okay with having my Voice of Resurgence path to Exile'd, because...
...I have 27 creatures in my deck, counting 4 Treetop Village and Lingering Souls as 1 creature each (which is most likely a conservative number), so the elemental token is often a 3/3 or larger. Many of you run quite a few less creatures, so I can understand why you haven't had the same results as I have.
I can attrition well because of the ability to trade away creatures in combat, use the removal for the ones that trade unprofitably or don't fight much at all, like Dark Confidant, then win with the last standing dork that survived the fight (or lose to theirs). If this hasn't been your experience playing against Jund or UWR or BUG, then it seems that I'm playing a different format, and I'd love to hear how the games go for you
The online vs. IRL thing is pretty irrelevant. If your day-to-day experience in modern is competing in small tournaments like an 8-man store event where you know all of the players and deck choices, then go ahead and metagame away...I get it.
Magic is a game with a rich array of choices, and I hope that yours bring you satisfaction,
j
There are a limited number of decks that make up large percentages of the competitive meta, that is what I tune towards, my meta is not skewed, I go by www.mtgtop8.com as a very general guide to the competitive meta. Magic Online is biased because slow decks are punished with game losses for going to time and winning faster games is rewarded. Suit yourself, but Voice is atrociously horrible in this deck in terms of its weaknesses and strengths in the current meta. Its a cool idea, but in practice it is horrible. Pod, Tron, and Affinity make up almost a third of the competitive meta. It is worse than Smiter and Knight and there are several other cards I would rather play than Voice.
I played Voice and it is horrible vs Pod, Tron, Affinity. It is meh vs anything that plays path to exile. Its great against counterspells, our deck is already very good against blue decks. I would much rather play Knight, Removal, Lingering Souls, Liliana, etc. It seems like it would be great for our deck, but it is generally not better than anything that could take its place, also the token is not always better, especially in our deck it can often be a 1/1 or 2/2. Voice is much better in Pod. If you like it sure, but I do not play on magic online, only in irl tournaments.
I've been reading this thread for some time, and I figured that I would share a few things from my experiences playing this sort of deck:
Voice of Resurgence is really quite good against many of the "real decks" in the format...WUR, Jund (any any other midrange creature removal strategy), control decks with counterspells, Splinter Twin, and also aids in your plan to attrition a Melira Pod deck when they switch gears off of the combo and to a more midrange plan. If you've tried Voice of Resurgence and have been unimpressed, then I have to imagine that your local metagame is quite skewed, or you haven't been in many knock-down, drag-out wars of attrition, where it shines.
I'm of the personal opinion that the pinpoint discard is not as good as a lot of players think it is. I'm playing 4 copies of Thoughtseize, and I generally only keep it in against cards like Cryptic Command, or the very obvious reason of using it against fragile combination decks that become hampered by the loss of one card. Another example would be if I'm playing a sideboarded game against Living End, I'll leave it in to nab their Beast Within so that I can have Rule of Law on the table. (You can apply to any matchup where you want to get rid of the card that they have to deal with the cards you brought in)
When playing against other midrange strategies like Jund, Junk, BUG, etc., I board out all of my Thoughtseize. After sideboarding, every card in my deck is a land, threat, or a way to interact with their threats. What happens in these matchups is that you trade cards back and forth, and end up playing off of the top of your deck, except they have a blank card in Thoughtseize/Inquisition and I don't. If you'd like to spend a mana and a card to make me discard a card and get us both closer to a topdeck war where my draw quality is higher than yours, feel free to be my guest, but more often than not, I'll win...with one creature in play.
Another card that I feel is very overrated is Abrupt Decay. If Splinter Twin weren't a deck, I wouldn't even play the one copy that I have, I'd play Smother or Go for the Throat, honestly. (I actually do play a Go for the Throat in my sideboard over an option like Abrupt Decay)
I've seen some people choose Stirring Wildwood over Treetop Village, using reasoning like "it makes two colors of mana", "it has a 4 toughness" and "Doran makes it bigger" (should you be playing such a card). I don't think that these same people have ever appreciated being able to attack with two Treetop Village on the same turn, or trampling over Lingering Souls tokens.
I hope some/all/any of this was helpful in some way, and best of luck to you.
Voice of Resurgence is awful, it is very easily played around, it will only net you one token against a competent opponent if it dies. Many decks are unbothered by it, it belongs in a GW Hatebear deck. When I tried it, I was not unimpressed, I was shocked just how horrible it is, it sounds like your meta is skewed. Depending on the amount of colorless land you're playing you don't want to mess with the mana too much, and stirring wildwood is a fine card and I disagree, 4 toughness is a big deal. I would play treetop in a non-white, non-red deck that is more aggressive. I agree for the most part on target discard, but it is good because of its ability to let you choose what to discard, discarding your path and playing my goyf seems fine, though if you have enough live cards I would side them out against decks that it is not a key card against as well as decks where it kills you. I think 2 Abrupt Decay is fine, its a great card, albeit it has its limits so I play 2 Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, but its nice to have. I would like to see your list, I am troubled with some of your card choices. Rule of Law seems okay, but not sure if its really necessary, I hope you're playing scavenging ooze.
Even if I don't play her in this deck, I want two more Bladeholds for an FNM B/W Tokens deck.
Fair enough. Try the 1/1 split for now though. Lol, I just realized that Dead Weatherman is the creator of this thread. Still undecided about Stony Silence its nice, but how effective is it...
I only have 1 Hero unfortunately (I believe I traded my other 2 off to get confidants).
So, I could run 1 Hero and 1 Elspeth, 1 hero and 2 Elspeth, 2 elspeth and no hero, or 1 Hero and no Elspeth.
Or I could see if I could pick another Hero up this Friday. Depends on what my game store has available.
Elspeth is definitely a great card to play, can't go wrong with her. Test out 1 Hero and 1 Elspeth if you want, Hero definitely deserves testing, I wouldn't go gung-ho on it though, no need to buy cards that you might decide not to play.
On another note, I am rethinking my sideboard as the meta is split between RG Tron and U-Tron and Stony Silence is decent but not crushing vs Affinity. Though I'm not sure what I would put in those 3 slots that would be better, life from the loam locks out Tron, probably near useless vs scapeshift ironically since they are a land based deck, but I do feel like I need a few slots that are effective against affinity because it is quite a tough, yet very winnable matchup, having something to give us an edge doesn't seem bad.
I've been thinking about what the most effective cards are to side against Tron and Affinity, any ideas?
A 3/2 split of IoK and Thoughtseize is better than running the full four of either.
The same split would probably be good for Knight and Smiter, too. I'd run three Smiter and two Knight because I'd want the consistent 4/4 earlier to set the stage and the Knight later so her tutoring power can find whatever locks the game in. Drawing Knight too early is less good because early Deathrites can eat into her lands. You have a better chance of saving up lands in the graveyard later on. Hero of Bladehold is also a very good clean-up beater.
I'd diversify your removal, too. Four Decay leaves you too open to things like Restoration Angel.
Diversity is generally never a bad thing among non-goyf level cards I definitely support this idea. I found Decay to be useful but often times I would like Maelstrom Pulse for Resto, Pod, Kiki, Karn etc, definitely a fan of 2/2 split or some other split of abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse. I appreciate your acknowledgement and consideration for Knight as a card choice. Hero of Bladehold is a very nice finisher, hm she may deserve some testing as 1 or 2 of instead of Elspeth.
In terms of the Inquisition / Thoughtseize split, for builds not playing 4 Knight and Vault I would recommend the split of 2/3 or 3/2 depending on your meta. I have felt with the increased consistency of getting Vault to the field I have been able to keep in check my life loss for the most part, maybe I'm wrong, but I very much enjoy Thoughtseize over Inquisition in important matchups, Scapeshift, Pod, Tron, Twin, not a particularly difficult matchup but I'll mention RWU (Verdict + Ajani Vengeant), etc. I very well may be biased on playing 4 Thoughtseize, having come from Legacy, but I have really enjoyed the consistency of being able to target discard 4cmc cards and higher, inquisition is a fine card and can hit something against almost every deck, but I have found the most troublesome cards to be out of inquisition's reach. I feel like I can afford to play 4 thoughtseize so I do, when I was playing the split inquisition repeatedly unimpressed me, I think its a great card vs aggro though. I will revisit considering a split, inquisition is definitely a fine card.
I know Tarmogoyf is necessary. I'm going to do everything I feasibly can yp get them, but I can't get them by then. This also isn't a PTQ or something super competitive so I think I can do without. I am working hard on getting them, but 9 days isn't enough time. Unless I decided to sell organs.:p
I know how important Goyf is, which is why he's my next priority. It's just that I can't make $450 in 9 days.
They're 140 each actually. If its purely short term just play scavenging ooze instead. You'll do fine vs aggro, but vs control and combo ooze is generally much worse than goyf. You need to stick to some general low curve due to Bob so Scavenging Ooze is the most direct answer, maybe play 3 ooze and 1 Elspeth. Also I very much recommend the full 4 Liliana.
I can't afford Thoughtsieze or Tarmogoyf in time. I'm playing in games somewhere between the 15th-18th and have no way to make the money in time.
Thoughtseize isn't absolutely necessary, but Tarmogoyf is. Its better to play a different deck at that point. If you are dead set on it, I would rework the deck to accomodate Scavenging Ooze in the mainboard.
Need to take out at least one land and replace it with the Archangel's vault obviously.
I would recommend my list and replace the 4x Thoughtseize with 4x Inquisition, splitting mainboard 2 decay and 2 maelstrom pulse will actually give you more reach outside of your inquistions. I would play at least 4 target discard spells if you are going to play Tarmogoyf. Also Thoughtseize is worth the investment at least play 2. Even if it gets reprinted the old Thoughtseize should hold decent value. In terms of your lands you want as close to 16 black sources as you can play, probably 16. Temple Garden is not necessary as a 2 of, neither is plains or forest (I would play a 2nd forest over a 2nd plains, I would not play a 2nd plains). Temple Garden is just a 1 of because you can search it up, also 5 shocklands is enough.
Well, I'm obviously not going to have 4 Goyfs by then, and there's no way I'm buying Thoughtseize at its current price (Even if I COULD afford that), but I do have the rest of the deck, excepting some sideboard cards, and Inquisition of Kozilek works fine as a replacement for Thoughtseize.
Inquisition is OKAY as a temporary substitute, Thoughtseize helps in troublesome matchups. Inquisition and Abrupt Decay can often be redundant (don't play 4 of both)
Would a deck running both KOTR and Loxodon Smiter work? I was thinking of maybe trying something out with my Aether Vials, and putting the Souls in the sideboard.
Or should I keep the Souls mainboarded, and leave my Aether vials for a different deck? I like them, but I feel like 12 creatures isn't enough to warrant Vials, and I don't want too many 3 drops, or Confidant starts working against me.
If I keep the Vials out, I was thinking of filling the last 4 slots of my deck with Jotun Grunts, Qasali Pridgemages, and Tidehollow Scullers. I like Thalia, but I have way too many noncreature spells to make her be useful enough. I was also maybe considering some number of Scavenging Ooze.
I've got two thruns, and one Linvala, but I feel like those are more sideboard cards.
The other option, if I wanted to replace Souls and run the vials, is Kitchen Finks.
Smiter is not worth running unless your entire meta is flooded with counterspells. AEther Vial is ****ty in modern because you're not dodging wasteland, using rishadan ports, dodging force of will, daze and counterspell and you're not stacked like Merfolk or D&T with combat tricks. Absolutely not worth it cute Idea though. Eternal Command uses vial nicely though.
Definitely mainboard souls. Having 12-14 3-Drops is fine with Bob, I have a pseudo 18 counting thoughtseize, but I have 4 Knight and Vault to make up for my somewhat suicidal gameplan.
Why is there even an argument between Smiter or Knight?
all the succesful decks from last season ran 0 of either. And the cutting of your 3-drop chaff was what made the deck good.
If Jund wasn't popular I could see cutting Souls for one of the other three drops. But your glutted on 3s with this deck as is.
Seems like if you are actually interested in making this deck competitive again:
1.
Figure out what changed since end of last modern PTQ season when it was the best deck.
Portland and Kansas are the most important tournaments since then. MODO the best guide to whats good now.
2.
Figure out if anything new addresses the new threats to the deck. or if theres something old that could be useful.
3.
Incorporate these answers cards in a newer version of the deck designed for today's meta.
This is currently a Rogue deck because people are still stuck on Jund and this deck might as well be a pile of **** if you are not a competent player. I have found this deck to be extremely effective in the meta because of the addition of Knight. The Rock will seldom if ever place on MODO because their system rewards short games and punishes those who go to time with game losses, the Rock is a slow grindy deck, this doesn't mean the deck is bad its just what it is, so MODO is a general but very imperfect guideline for what will show up in an IRL tournament.
Tournament results can give a general guideline for what is good, but cannot give a guideline for what is bad especially if no one is really playing this deck. If you only look to tournaments for what is good then you have a lot to learn buddy, actually take lists into your own hands and test them before you completely dismiss a card choice that just happened to not be played in tournaments where Knight has actually seen play as well as Smiter.
The Rock is based in Black, you're talking about GW Hatebears with a black splash for lingering souls and probably deathrite shaman which Voice is great in, Voice is still best in Pod though.
The Rock is neither an aggro nor defensive deck but it can try to play both roles in different situations, the deck does tilt towards defensive.
There are a limited number of decks that make up large percentages of the competitive meta, that is what I tune towards, my meta is not skewed, I go by www.mtgtop8.com as a very general guide to the competitive meta. Magic Online is biased because slow decks are punished with game losses for going to time and winning faster games is rewarded. Suit yourself, but Voice is atrociously horrible in this deck in terms of its weaknesses and strengths in the current meta. Its a cool idea, but in practice it is horrible. Pod, Tron, and Affinity make up almost a third of the competitive meta. It is worse than Smiter and Knight and there are several other cards I would rather play than Voice.
Voice of Resurgence is awful, it is very easily played around, it will only net you one token against a competent opponent if it dies. Many decks are unbothered by it, it belongs in a GW Hatebear deck. When I tried it, I was not unimpressed, I was shocked just how horrible it is, it sounds like your meta is skewed. Depending on the amount of colorless land you're playing you don't want to mess with the mana too much, and stirring wildwood is a fine card and I disagree, 4 toughness is a big deal. I would play treetop in a non-white, non-red deck that is more aggressive. I agree for the most part on target discard, but it is good because of its ability to let you choose what to discard, discarding your path and playing my goyf seems fine, though if you have enough live cards I would side them out against decks that it is not a key card against as well as decks where it kills you. I think 2 Abrupt Decay is fine, its a great card, albeit it has its limits so I play 2 Decay and 2 Maelstrom Pulse, but its nice to have. I would like to see your list, I am troubled with some of your card choices. Rule of Law seems okay, but not sure if its really necessary, I hope you're playing scavenging ooze.
Fair enough. Try the 1/1 split for now though. Lol, I just realized that Dead Weatherman is the creator of this thread. Still undecided about Stony Silence its nice, but how effective is it...
Elspeth is definitely a great card to play, can't go wrong with her. Test out 1 Hero and 1 Elspeth if you want, Hero definitely deserves testing, I wouldn't go gung-ho on it though, no need to buy cards that you might decide not to play.
On another note, I am rethinking my sideboard as the meta is split between RG Tron and U-Tron and Stony Silence is decent but not crushing vs Affinity. Though I'm not sure what I would put in those 3 slots that would be better, life from the loam locks out Tron, probably near useless vs scapeshift ironically since they are a land based deck, but I do feel like I need a few slots that are effective against affinity because it is quite a tough, yet very winnable matchup, having something to give us an edge doesn't seem bad.
I've been thinking about what the most effective cards are to side against Tron and Affinity, any ideas?
Diversity is generally never a bad thing among non-goyf level cards I definitely support this idea. I found Decay to be useful but often times I would like Maelstrom Pulse for Resto, Pod, Kiki, Karn etc, definitely a fan of 2/2 split or some other split of abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse. I appreciate your acknowledgement and consideration for Knight as a card choice. Hero of Bladehold is a very nice finisher, hm she may deserve some testing as 1 or 2 of instead of Elspeth.
In terms of the Inquisition / Thoughtseize split, for builds not playing 4 Knight and Vault I would recommend the split of 2/3 or 3/2 depending on your meta. I have felt with the increased consistency of getting Vault to the field I have been able to keep in check my life loss for the most part, maybe I'm wrong, but I very much enjoy Thoughtseize over Inquisition in important matchups, Scapeshift, Pod, Tron, Twin, not a particularly difficult matchup but I'll mention RWU (Verdict + Ajani Vengeant), etc. I very well may be biased on playing 4 Thoughtseize, having come from Legacy, but I have really enjoyed the consistency of being able to target discard 4cmc cards and higher, inquisition is a fine card and can hit something against almost every deck, but I have found the most troublesome cards to be out of inquisition's reach. I feel like I can afford to play 4 thoughtseize so I do, when I was playing the split inquisition repeatedly unimpressed me, I think its a great card vs aggro though. I will revisit considering a split, inquisition is definitely a fine card.
They're 140 each actually. If its purely short term just play scavenging ooze instead. You'll do fine vs aggro, but vs control and combo ooze is generally much worse than goyf. You need to stick to some general low curve due to Bob so Scavenging Ooze is the most direct answer, maybe play 3 ooze and 1 Elspeth. Also I very much recommend the full 4 Liliana.
Thoughtseize isn't absolutely necessary, but Tarmogoyf is. Its better to play a different deck at that point. If you are dead set on it, I would rework the deck to accomodate Scavenging Ooze in the mainboard.
I would recommend my list and replace the 4x Thoughtseize with 4x Inquisition, splitting mainboard 2 decay and 2 maelstrom pulse will actually give you more reach outside of your inquistions. I would play at least 4 target discard spells if you are going to play Tarmogoyf. Also Thoughtseize is worth the investment at least play 2. Even if it gets reprinted the old Thoughtseize should hold decent value. In terms of your lands you want as close to 16 black sources as you can play, probably 16. Temple Garden is not necessary as a 2 of, neither is plains or forest (I would play a 2nd forest over a 2nd plains, I would not play a 2nd plains). Temple Garden is just a 1 of because you can search it up, also 5 shocklands is enough.
Can I see your list?
3 Inquisition 3-4 Abrupt Decay is fine maybe 3-3-1 Adding Maelstrom Pulse as a 1 of.
Inquisition is OKAY as a temporary substitute, Thoughtseize helps in troublesome matchups. Inquisition and Abrupt Decay can often be redundant (don't play 4 of both)
Smiter is not worth running unless your entire meta is flooded with counterspells. AEther Vial is ****ty in modern because you're not dodging wasteland, using rishadan ports, dodging force of will, daze and counterspell and you're not stacked like Merfolk or D&T with combat tricks. Absolutely not worth it cute Idea though. Eternal Command uses vial nicely though.
Definitely mainboard souls. Having 12-14 3-Drops is fine with Bob, I have a pseudo 18 counting thoughtseize, but I have 4 Knight and Vault to make up for my somewhat suicidal gameplan.
Here's my current list (Its always updated):
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-rock-17-06-13-1/
This is currently a Rogue deck because people are still stuck on Jund and this deck might as well be a pile of **** if you are not a competent player. I have found this deck to be extremely effective in the meta because of the addition of Knight. The Rock will seldom if ever place on MODO because their system rewards short games and punishes those who go to time with game losses, the Rock is a slow grindy deck, this doesn't mean the deck is bad its just what it is, so MODO is a general but very imperfect guideline for what will show up in an IRL tournament.
Here is a semi-recent result including 4 Knight, though I have big disagreements with quite a few of his card choices: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1107403
Tournament results can give a general guideline for what is good, but cannot give a guideline for what is bad especially if no one is really playing this deck. If you only look to tournaments for what is good then you have a lot to learn buddy, actually take lists into your own hands and test them before you completely dismiss a card choice that just happened to not be played in tournaments where Knight has actually seen play as well as Smiter.