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  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Pokken »
    Quote from Dunharrow »

    2) Second point, you said:

    [quote from="Dunharrow »" url="/forums/the-game/commander-edh/commander-rules-discussion-forum/771098-paradox-engine?comment=257"]
    If I had PE showing up as often as you do, I would be playing a lot more artifact hate. Cleansing Nova, Vandalblast, Shatterstorm, even more ETB creatures that break artifacts. If everyone has 10+ artifacts these cards will always be good.


    Please review the discussion in the Prophet of Kruphix thread on why "play more removal" is not the answer to every problem.

    Your statement is a variant of "git gud scrub" combined with "dies to removal." You are welcome to peruse my decks but you'll find I probably play more removal than most people (with an exception for my Gitrog deck which runs just enough and my MW deck which is in the tuning phase).

    When I see a Paradox engine the odds I have a piece of removal are quite high. Unfortunately, much like Prophet of Kruphix, removal is often moot against it. You can go read the various Prophet of Kruphix threads for explanations on this if you like.


    You misunderstand me. Artifact hate kills the artifacts you need to have in play to go off with Paradox Engine. A turn 4 shatterstorm means that PE is unlikely to do anything should anyone play it. You also have the added benefit of disrupting people's mana.


    Oh hey, I found another doozy in there I wanted to respond to:

    Quote from Dunharrow »

    - PE does absolutely nothing by itself. You need to follow-up with a spell to do anything with it. Meaning, it is not a good play if you have 5 mana. You need more mana or you give your opponents a whole turn cycle to deal with it. Next, if you have no mana dorks or mana rocks, PE is not broken. As creatures and artifacts are the two easiest permanents to destroy, I do not believe that, on average, people have enough of these permanents to go off. Finally, you play PE specifically to combo off. It is like High Tide. The percentage of EDH players who want to combo off is relatively low. This is why most of us do not see PE very often.



    Now see these quotes from the PoK thread and see why I think there's a lot of alignment here :p


    This is a 5 mana card that produces no mana draws no cards doesn't tutor has no etb litteraly does nothing

    Prophet by itself is not a must answer. With a board and a card advantage engine it needs to die the turn it was played. A T2 PoK from Land, Manavault, Land isn't a threat, yet. A T5 PoK with Mystic Remora or Survival out is a different story, the game will end.

    Its super powerful.. but its only an enabler. It doesn't do a huge amount alone it requires something else for it to abuse.


    Vehemently disagree with this poster about PoK. You always had a creature to cast. All you needed for PoK to be good was cards in hand and a commander in the command zone. The main difference is also that turn 5 PoK on an empty board is a threat that needs to be answered that same turn, and PE is a turn 5 do nothing on an empty board that you can answer any time.


    Sylvan primordial was banned because by itself it was too much value. Protean Hulk was unbanned. Which card is more powerful?

    If you can understand why SP was banned but PH was unbanned, you will understand why PE is not in contention for banning.


    'Too good in a very specific deck' is not grounds for banning. It never has and never will be.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Is Evolving Wilds worth playing in 2 colour decks // Optimal land base for 2 colour deck
    Quote from DirkGently »
    Depends a lot on context. If you're playing, say, niv-mizzet, parun with a budget manabase, then it's reasonable to run evolving wilds.

    There are lot of lands you left out, though. Running down the list:

    ODY filter
    non-cycle lands from future sight (river of tears et al)
    reveal-lands from SOI
    Temples
    cycling duals
    man duals
    slow lands
    fast lands
    battle lands

    I mentioned all of these lands....

    And then all the rainbow lands...
    cavern of souls
    city of brass
    mana confluence
    forbidden orchard
    reflecting pool
    gemstone caverns
    path of ancestry

    These lands are not always good... depends on the deck. Most of the time I expect two colour decks to play some of them.
    You did mention some, I'm guessing you left them off the list because they aren't available to enemy pairs? There are some available to all colors though (for example, fast lands and temples).

    I could potentially see a deck that was 2-color enemy pair, and REALLY wanted to recur them (I don't think having a couple delve cards justifies it) it could be reasonable. So it's possible. My point was that, unless you're getting extra value - either you really want the shuffle, you really want the recursion, etc - then it's wrong to use them unless you're on a budget and have strict color requirements. Otherwise you should run another fixing land or a basic.

    So, if you were play Niv-Mizzet, would you play Evolving wilds or Swiftwater Cliffs? You are not playing 20 basics. You need some subpar lands.. right? EW interacts with more, that's for sure. Delve, copy effects, graveyard recursion, landfall.

    I don't know. The main thing I am seeing is that there are way more good lands for allied-pairs than enemy pairs in EDH.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Your only basis for its prevalence was a quote from years ago that PoK was in the top 20 most played creatures.

    Honestly, if PE was a card I saw at non-cEDH tables, I could get on board with banning it. But the fact remains that the only times I see it in non-cEDH decks is my own Phenax, god of deception. I never see the card.

    T&N is so much more present in 50-75% metas.


    And here is the main talking points, I think:
    - PoK could go into any UGx deck and do well. If you had creatures, it let you play creatures at 4x the rate of your opponents. If you played spells, it let you play instants and flash in your commander before your next turn. It was always good, and made the rest of your deck broken. PoK almost always did something because at the least you could cast your commander and you were in the main card-draw colours. The main issue with PoK, however, was that if you didn't kill it the turn it came down, you would never get the chance. You could not wait until your turn and cast Damnation. You could not wait until your turn and tutor your spot removal spell. Once they untapped, it was nearly impossible to kill PoK. Whether or not you played combo did not matter, it was a value engine that took over the game within one turn cycle.
    - PE does absolutely nothing by itself. You need to follow-up with a spell to do anything with it. Meaning, it is not a good play if you have 5 mana. You need more mana or you give your opponents a whole turn cycle to deal with it. Next, if you have no mana dorks or mana rocks, PE is not broken. As creatures and artifacts are the two easiest permanents to destroy, I do not believe that, on average, people have enough of these permanents to go off. Finally, you play PE specifically to combo off. It is like High Tide. The percentage of EDH players who want to combo off is relatively low. This is why most of us do not see PE very often.

    Much of your argument has been that PE is abusable in most decks most of the time - that most decks have enough mana rocks to take advantage of PE. I just went through the 21 decks 'random deck of the week' thread. None had PE. 3-4 of them had enough mana rocks to take advantage of PE should it have been in the list.

    I understand your point about it being a degenerate card. I understand that it is very present in your circle. I know it is a staple of cEDH. cEDH is not noteworthy, though, since it is an unmanageable format. PE should not be banned for cEDH any more than any other combo card.

    I am just pointing out that it is not very present in Commander as a whole, and that the average commander deck, whether or not it is correct, does not have 10+ mana rocks. I think they usually have between 3 and 6 mana rocks. Mana dorks almost only exist in cEDH... understandably, since losing your mana ramp to wrath of god is frustrating.
    Please keep in mind that EDHRec bases its stats on people posting decks online. People who post decks online are a minority of commander players. The people who post online are on average More competitive and more invested in magic than people who do not post online. The price of PE is thankfully another reason why it does not show up in the same numbers as PoK did.


    I want you to know that I take all your arguments as valid and interesting arguments. I just do not agree with your take on what the implications are. I think our main disagreement is about what percentage of decks can actually utilize PE.

    If I had PE showing up as often as you do, I would be playing a lot more artifact hate. Cleansing Nova, Vandalblast, Shatterstorm, even more ETB creatures that break artifacts. If everyone has 10+ artifacts these cards will always be good.
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Is Evolving Wilds worth playing in 2 colour decks // Optimal land base for 2 colour deck
    I was thinking about this based on DirkGently's post about it in another thread.

    Got me thinking.

    If you are playing a 2-colour deck and do not want to run 7 fetchlands (maybe because you do not like playing off-colour fetches or maybe because of budget), what is better? Something like Scoured Barrens or Evolving Wilds/Terramorphic Expanse?

    Taplands will fix multiple colours. I expect most 2-colour decks are playing a scryland, a cycle land (if you are in an allied colour pair), and maybe a ravnica bounce land.

    After that, there are gates, the ones that gain you life, and just generic come into play tapped lands.

    Where would you rank TE and EW in there?

    TE and EW will only fix for one colour, but they give you a shuffle effect, a land in the graveyard (for delve or for other interactions), and you can copy the activated ability. Their value changes depending on the deck. Most Ux decks should run them in my opinion as they can fuel Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time.


    I actually find the 2-colour mana base to be the toughest to build in commander. How many basics can you play? Are Panoramas better than lands that enter tapped?
    In a 2 colour deck, assuming 38 lands, you have
    1. 1-7 fetch
    2. 1 ABUR dual
    3. 1 Shockland
    4. 1 Checkland
    5. 1 Command Tower
    6. 1 Painland
    7. 1 Filterland
    8. 1 Prismatic Vista


    So you have 9-17 locked in cards, depending on how you feel about fetches. Let's say 17.
    Then you get into things that are not in every colour pairing. I believe this list gives you between 1 and 5 lands.
    9. Tainted lands / one of the 3 remaining Future Sight lands / BFZ Duals / SOI Reveal lands / Canopy lands / Battlebond lands / Odyssey Filter lands

    That makes up to 22 lands that enter untapped most of the time.

    Then there are the best lands that enter tapped
    10. Manlands / Scry lands / Ravnica Bounce Lands / Cycle Lands / / Fast lands (listed as tapped lands because most of the time they enter tapped in EDH).
    11. Myriad Landscape and Path of Ancestry imo are pretty good

    This would be another 7-11 lands. Our list is now between 18 and 29 lands.

    Finally, we get to EW, TE, gates, lands that gain life, etc. If you are GW, you already have 29 lands here, so you can plug in some basics and be done. But if you are Izzet, you have 18 lands and need another 20. I think 20 basics is too many, so I would definitely want some of the weaker lands. Do you put City of Brass into your 2 colour deck? Or do you play TE and EW to have a shuffle effect/graveyard interaction/etc?

    What if you do not want 7 fetches in each two colour deck and you do not have ABUR duals? Then you have a lot more open slots. Again, what do you do?

    I do not know where to put Mirage Fetches on this list. I guess they are better than EW and TE in allied-colours, but in enemy colours they are probably worse. If you do not have an ABUR dual in your Izzet deck, there is only one 2-colour land the mirage fetches can get. EW is definitely better in that case.

    Notes
    *Maybe I missed some lands
    **Not including utility lands that do not fix for mana. Depending on your colour requirements and the deck's interactions, you may not want any and you may want 10 of them. Hard to include in this list.




    In any case, two colour decks are challenging because you are often forced to play subpar lands to fix your mana or a large number of basics. There may be certain synergistic considerations that influence which lands you play, but for the most part, for Boros, Izzet and Simic decks (which have the fewest fixing lands), would you play Evolving Wilds or Swiftwater Cliffs?
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Morophon Human tribal questions
    Aggro-disruption

    It is almost combo, actually, in that when you cast Morophon you should be able to cast all the creatures in your hand for free. The only exceptions should be the disruptive cards like Thalia, Guardian of Thraben.

    If I were making the deck I would do the following:
    - All hatebear humans
    - All humans who draw cards at a good rate
    - aggressive humans that are free with Morophon

    Rest of the deck can be a few good draw effects, protection against wraths and spot removal.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on [[Official]] Unreleased and New Card Discussion
    Let me just grab this Interplanar being from my little bag here.

    Makes me think of Mappo Runt.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on An Orzhov defensive deck
    Archetype of courage is good with deathtouch.
    Gifted Aetherborn is good
    Ophiomancer
    you missed Ruthless ripper

    Blind Obedience is great

    Maybe Vengeful Pharaoh?
    You are low on lands. I think you need at least 36.

    You can win with a big debt to the deathless. You can also throw in Kokusho, the Evening Star or Gray Merchant of Asphodel... not bad with the recursion you have in the deck.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Gods Willing and Apostle of Purifying light (Card Kingdom preview)
    Colour hosers and protection would definitely help against monocolour devotion decks. Think of Mistcutter Hydra against Monoblue Devotion.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Grafdigger's Cage Reprint (Impulso Geek Preview)
    Quote from Trov »
    I must say that since the return of the core sets they have been spot on. Haven't been this interested in a core set since magic origins.
    Good mix of interesting new cards and good reprints for eternal formats. Hope they keep this up Smile


    I don't disagree with your comments but I think it is funny to say that you haven't been this interested in a core set since Origins... Core 2019 being the only set since Origins.

    Leyline + Cage could be reprinted now maybe because there is a lack of graveyard decks in the next year. Think of Crucible of Worlds and Scapeshift. They were not played in Standard at all. Leyline and Cage are very strong cards and I am guessing that if they had a graveyard theme they would not want to squash it with such powerful hate.

    It also helps to sell packs of Core Sets.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Yuriko Combos?
    Time Warp + Archeomancer + Sunken Hope or Yuriko's ninjitsu could do the trick
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Paradox Engine
    Quote from Pokken »
    I think the power creep is a huge problem. Wizards just keeps making 6+ mana spells do more and more and more until you can have an entire deck full of ramp, draw and cantrips, and nonsense that does way too much for its mana in a format where you can your backup card advantage in the command zone.

    Re: Paradox engine and sensationalism

    The case against PE is reasonably strong compared to the casual banmania stuff:

    • The detailed numbers I have run suggest that PE is fairly high on the "too much mana too quickly" spectrum independently of casual appeal or whatever. So I think that alone allows a case for the card to be considered.
    • Has many scenarios in which it creates game ending loops that take a long time to execute
    • As far as prevalence goes in just 5 months it went from in 5% or so of possible decks to 6%

    Take that prevalence number on edhrec and that is still one of the interesting cases for banning to me. This is a colorless card that is in 1 in 18 decks, despite its admittedly serious deckbuilding consequences -- you really cannot be on a ramp package other than dorks or rocks.

    It sees play in a fairly diverse array of commanders, and takes up a huge share of the builds of many of them

    ~ 70% of urza, arcum decks
    ~ 60% of Azami, seton, rishkar, dralnu
    ~ 50% of new jhoira, sisay, karn, several partner pairs, mono g selvala
    ~ 40% of selvala, kydele, muzzio decks

    Wizards seems to print a new PE general basically every set or two.

    Comparing this card to banmania like Simic Ascendancy is completely unfair. There're many argments for this thing being a problem that are legitimate and should not be thrown out with the "Well it's been around for 3 years and not everyone sees it frequently" stuff.

    I have surely shared my anecdotes, because ultimately that is something people think about. How does the card affect actual games of magic?

    That's why Prophet got banned - its prevalence was partially the issue, but it had many things in common

    1) It warped many UG decks to a be a prophet deck - check, PE strongly encourages artifact and dork decks to play it
    2) It dominated the table both of playing time and of focus when it dropped - PE Checks this box although significantly less so than Prophet
    3) It was a target for theft, cloning and so on - this is much less of an issue though I have seen cloned and acquired PEs win games infrequently

    I think Prophet is probably the best ban comparison we can make other than possibly Metalworker - which compares very interestingly on the mana spectrum.


    *Says PE should be banned for prevalence in EDH
    *Also points out that maybe 1 in 18 decks plays it

    Were you playing when PoK was legal? It was in 2-3 decks in every single game of magic I played, and I played a lot in those days. Of UGx decks, I would say it was in more than half of the decks, and that it warped gameplay completely. I would not tap out once the UG player had 4 mana because I didn't want to lose to PoK the next turn. By itself, it could win you the game.

    PE is not the same at all. Not as prevalent by a longshot, despite being legal in 100% of decks.

    I understand that it can make for long turns, but you know what - so does Top, Sylvan Library, and so many other cards.

    You are comparing to PoK but I would compare to Food Chain. Food Chain is deplorable when it is played because it almost always marks the end of the game. What a bad card for EDH where you always have access to a creature to exile and a creature to cast. But you know what, Food Chain only fits in certain specific decks. Of my 17 decks, only MW and Karador could benefit from 'cloning' a food chain. None of my other decks would benefit in any way I can think of. PE is similar - if I am playing MW or a Gx deck with lots of dorks, sure, PE cloning could benefit me... but most of my other decks would prefer to clone a sol ring.

    It sees play in 70% of Arcum decks? Arcum has a tap ability and does really well with Artifacts. Thousand-Year Elixir sees just as much play.

    I totally agree with Kelzam's post. I am sick and tired of seeing the same points repeated over and over again. We know the RC has kept an eye on it. Clearly they have never felt the need to ban it. It isn't seeing more and more play - just maybe more play in certain new decks.

    To be ubiquitous enough to be banned, it isn't about being prevalent in Arcum decks or Selvala decks. Those decks are toxic, and I have no interest in playing against them. To be ubiquitous enough to be banned, an artifact like this would have to be played in at least 25% of decks before you can even think about it.

    I am willing to bet that Sylvan Primordial was played in more than half of green decks at the time of banning. PoK was probably in close to 75% of UG decks.

    Next time you watch a game of Commander clash, throw in PE on turn 5 and let me know what it does to the game. People play mana rocks but they get blown up. People play dorks but they die. PE relies on having a threshold of the two easiest types of permanents to destroy in magic.

    So, Pokken, I get that you hate the card (and I would too if my meta was full of it), but can we just bury this dead horse?
    Posted in: Commander Rules Discussion Forum
  • posted a message on Embodiment of Agonies (Amaz Preview)
    OMG

    This seems so powerful.
    Faithless looting and tome scour will play well with this.

    I know the card is a literal blank when there is graveyard hate, but this seems so versatile. Leyline of the Void will be huge in standard because of this card.

    Cool design
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Kyle Hill digs mono green Commander!!!
    Weird
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
  • posted a message on Bloodsoaked Altar (ashlizzle preview)
    Could be a fun build-around uncommon for draft. Maybe Reassembling Skeleton gets a reprint.

    I would be surprised to see it anywhere else ever.
    Posted in: The Rumor Mill
  • posted a message on Random Card of the Day: Immobilizer Eldrazi
    I had been running Abrade in a few decks and made the swap. You will always have a target. It is so important to play artifact removal in EDH, and this makes it easy because it will always be a relevant card.
    Posted in: Commander (EDH)
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