The thing about Meddling Mage is that Eidolon of Rhetoric accomplishes a lot of the same things and a lot more. Granted it's 1 mana more, but it's more resilient to removal and more versatile. Eidolon of Rhetoric:
Neither list in the top 8 was running Stomping Ground if I remember correctly. The one list filled the slot with Sacred Foundry while the other cut red entirely.
I tried to talk to Eli at SCG Indy about the deck earlier this year and it kinda sounded like he just plays cards that he likes.. So I never really know what to take from his lists.
I am trying this deck tomorrow. A couple of questions:
1) are you all playing kessig, gq and tonwship main ? 3 coulorless lands seems pretty greedy to me... Can we cut kessig at all ?
2) Anyone has tried this with fauna shaman ? (for example luda ?) Fetching quellers one after each other seems like a pretty good way to stall games.
Many thanks.
I honestly haven't had many issues running 3 colorless sources. Kessig could be cut but I believe you lose a lot of reach.
I've played Fauna Shaman a ton and I know Kelvin Chew has tested it as well in the deck. I still bounce back and forth between the versions running it with singleton bullets main/expanded toolbox in the board and lists more focused around higher impact 2-ofs.
In a removal heavy Meta (Death's Shadow everywhere and decks trying to beat Death's Shadow everywhere) I prefer the more streamlined/less-toolboxy approach and allowing Spell Queller to act as a generic toolbox answer to problems I can't solve.
R1: GB Tron 2-1
R2: KCI Trawler 2-1
R3: RW Burn 2-0
R4: Sun & Moon 2-1
R5: (pair down) G Devotion 0-2 (both games involved me mulling to 4)
R6: ID
Top 8: Saheeli Chord (friends list similar to what I've been testing as well) - 0-2 - Land light mull to 5 G1, Combo'd on 4 G2 on a land light mull to 6.
I'm not set up very well to interact with Saheeli, nor do I think I should over prepare for it right now. I definitely think the deck has potential though after playing it a bunch the last couple weeks.
I was looking at this list earlier. I love Huntaster but 8x 4-Drops, 2x 5-Drops feels ambitious.
I wonder if he made any concessions based off what he had card wise? 3x Bird / 4x Hierarch is an odd split in a Kiki Deck. 0x Scooze is strange. 3rd Finks or 4th Rallier should probably be the 2nd Witness. What was he gunning for with 2x Linvala in the board?
It also isn't an infinite combo in the Spirits deck...
I agree that the card itself is relatively lackluster but the text box isn't terrible. Still convinced Kiki-Jiki is just the better option if you're looking for a secondary combo tutorable via Chord/Evo.
Why is Lotus Cobra used in this deck ? To have a "mana dork" that can attack ? If so why not Rattleclaw Mystic (or Sylvan Caryatid if attacking isn't a concern) ?
With 7x other mana dorks it seems not necessary.
Anafenza adds a secondary combo of Felidar + Felidar/Resto + Anafenza = infinite bolster triggers. Additionally all 3 Pieces are tutorable off Chord/Evolution or whatever you're testing.
Village Bell-Ringer performs better with an abundance of 1-CMC Dorks & Fauna Shaman, there are a number if instances where you pitch to Shaman, get Bell-Ringer, Cast Bell-Ringer, Untap everything and now have Chord for 5 up or the ability to activate Shaman again. Again, keeping cards that require blue as low as possible has always worked out better for me.
To keep it simple, Wall of Roots can't kill your opponent and doesn't produce blue or white. Exalted is important when the highest power creature on your side of the table is 3 and you need to attack through Goyfs/Tasigur/Thought-knot Seers. If I was running a full 4 copies of Chord I'd most likely re-consider some number of Walls.
You want every land in your deck to come into play untapped. Copperline Gorge doesn't do that late game, and the idea is to take less damage and mulligan less, Karplusan Forest requires unnecessary damage and Fire-lit Thicket openers lead to far to many mulligans (Thicket + Gavony, Thicket + Plains, Thicket + Shock/Fetch can't cast Turn 2 Voice). The card also just has the text opponents can't play Death's Shadow stamped on it a lot of the time.
I've never played Raging Ravine in this deck.
I unfortunately don't stream or actually own any cards on MTGO. I can put together a sideboard guide for any MUs you're interested in.
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
Your list is awesome and is so fun to play, thanks for keeping us updated!
Just a quick question though, cards with flash are insane with Fauna Shaman, have you ever thought of a Spell Queller? And if you have trouble with Tron and GR Titan, why not maindeck Aven mindcensor?
Thanks! I've tried both in the past.
Spell Queller is great as a generic temporary answer in specific situations and in the right meta it could be correct as an inclusion.. think Spell based combo/removal light MUs. My issue with the card is it doesn't really fix any problem MUs my list can't toolbox through between the main/side. The card really shines where you're fine with temporary answers... Like Knightfall/Bant Company where you're unable to toolbox as efficiently and having just a generic answer to turn to makes sense. The other challenge that comes with running more than 1-2 copies is the additional strain on the mana base.
Aven Mindcensor is probably in the slot that changes the most in my board. It comes in vs. Tron, Titan/Shift decks, Chord decks, KOTR decks and Death Shadow Jund. It's not particularly good against any of them to be honest and I typically switch back and forth between it and a 2nd Magus if the Moon. Just given the number of MUs it's not particularly great in G1 I'd prefer to keep it in the board. Also, there isn't a 3 drop or 2 drop in the main I'd cut for it currently.
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
I do it for 10 all the time,
Playing/chording a t4 elesh norn hoses a lot of decks.
You're also comparing what is essentially a combo oriented ramp deck with a toolbox to a value based midrange-toolbox strategy and talking as if though MU's are even remotely similar.
While I find your list interesting and definitely capable of producing large amounts of mana early on it's hardly comparable to the game plan of most Kiki Chord variants discussed here.
If Tracker isn't performing for you, I wouldn't suggest adding a fringe playable 4-Mana color intensive Planeswalker that lowers your Company hits...
I agree that Eidolon of Rhetoric is just a far superior card than Meddling Mage across modern as a whole.
I tried to talk to Eli at SCG Indy about the deck earlier this year and it kinda sounded like he just plays cards that he likes.. So I never really know what to take from his lists.
I honestly haven't had many issues running 3 colorless sources. Kessig could be cut but I believe you lose a lot of reach.
I've played Fauna Shaman a ton and I know Kelvin Chew has tested it as well in the deck. I still bounce back and forth between the versions running it with singleton bullets main/expanded toolbox in the board and lists more focused around higher impact 2-ofs.
Here's the last list w/ Shaman I have saved -
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Fauna Shaman
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
Spells (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
Enchantments (2)
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Aven Mindcensor
3x Unified Will
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Reflector Mage
In a removal heavy Meta (Death's Shadow everywhere and decks trying to beat Death's Shadow everywhere) I prefer the more streamlined/less-toolboxy approach and allowing Spell Queller to act as a generic toolbox answer to problems I can't solve.
List:
1x Breeding Pool
2x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
3x Birds of Paradise
2x Courser of Kruphix
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Selfless Spirit
4x Spell Queller
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Voice of Resurgence
Instant (8)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
Enchantment (2)
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Negate
1x Reclamation Sage
3x Reflector Mage
1x Stony Silence
2x Unified Will
2-0 Grixis Control (board: -2 Retreat, -3 Birds, +2 Negate, +2 Finks, +1 Bojuka Bog)
1-2 Grixis Control (board: -2 Retreat, -3 Birds, +2 Negate, +2 Finks, +1 Bojuka Bog)
2-0 Abzan Midrange (board: -2 Retreat, -3 Birds, +2 Finks, +1 Staticaster, +2 Reflector Mage) - It's possible Bojuka Bog is correct here vs. Flayer, Goyf & Souls?
2-0 Jeskai Control (board: -2 Retreat, -3 Birds, +2 Finks, +1 Staticaster, +2 Negate) - Saw 2x Cliques G1, chose to bring in Staticaster as an easy answer to those & Snap.
2-0 RW Burn (board: -2 Retreat, -2 Spell Queller, +2 Finks, +2 Negate) - Without Blessed Alliance in the board, I feel like I'm boarded pretty light for this MU. Would probably bring in Reflector Mages on the play?
2-0 8 Rack (board: -2 Retreat, -1 Birds, +2 Negate, +1 Reclamation Sage, +1 Kataki, War's Wage)
0-2 Jund Midrange (board: -2 Retreat, -3 Birds, +2 Finks, +3 Reflector Mage)
2-1 BUG Midrange (board: -2 Retreat, -3 Birds, +2 Finks, +2 Reflector Mage, +1 Bojuka Bog)
2-0 GW Company (board: -1 Birds of Paradise, -2 Qasali Pridemage, +3 Reflector Mage)
2-1 UB Mill (board: -3 Voice of Resurgence, -2 Selfless Spirit, +2 Negate, +2 Unified Will +1 Reclamation Sage)
ID
I'm sure some of that is wrong, but I've been really happy with the 2 Tracker/2 Courser split in the main.
R1: GB Tron 2-1
R2: KCI Trawler 2-1
R3: RW Burn 2-0
R4: Sun & Moon 2-1
R5: (pair down) G Devotion 0-2 (both games involved me mulling to 4)
R6: ID
Top 8: Saheeli Chord (friends list similar to what I've been testing as well) - 0-2 - Land light mull to 5 G1, Combo'd on 4 G2 on a land light mull to 6.
I'm not set up very well to interact with Saheeli, nor do I think I should over prepare for it right now. I definitely think the deck has potential though after playing it a bunch the last couple weeks.
I'll share the list here in a couple days.
(Spoiler: Stop playing Oath of Nissa)
I wonder if he made any concessions based off what he had card wise? 3x Bird / 4x Hierarch is an odd split in a Kiki Deck. 0x Scooze is strange. 3rd Finks or 4th Rallier should probably be the 2nd Witness. What was he gunning for with 2x Linvala in the board?
I agree that the card itself is relatively lackluster but the text box isn't terrible. Still convinced Kiki-Jiki is just the better option if you're looking for a secondary combo tutorable via Chord/Evo.
Anafenza adds a secondary combo of Felidar + Felidar/Resto + Anafenza = infinite bolster triggers. Additionally all 3 Pieces are tutorable off Chord/Evolution or whatever you're testing.
To keep it simple, Wall of Roots can't kill your opponent and doesn't produce blue or white. Exalted is important when the highest power creature on your side of the table is 3 and you need to attack through Goyfs/Tasigur/Thought-knot Seers. If I was running a full 4 copies of Chord I'd most likely re-consider some number of Walls.
You want every land in your deck to come into play untapped. Copperline Gorge doesn't do that late game, and the idea is to take less damage and mulligan less, Karplusan Forest requires unnecessary damage and Fire-lit Thicket openers lead to far to many mulligans (Thicket + Gavony, Thicket + Plains, Thicket + Shock/Fetch can't cast Turn 2 Voice). The card also just has the text opponents can't play Death's Shadow stamped on it a lot of the time.
I've never played Raging Ravine in this deck.
I unfortunately don't stream or actually own any cards on MTGO. I can put together a sideboard guide for any MUs you're interested in.
Thanks! I've tried both in the past.
Spell Queller is great as a generic temporary answer in specific situations and in the right meta it could be correct as an inclusion.. think Spell based combo/removal light MUs. My issue with the card is it doesn't really fix any problem MUs my list can't toolbox through between the main/side. The card really shines where you're fine with temporary answers... Like Knightfall/Bant Company where you're unable to toolbox as efficiently and having just a generic answer to turn to makes sense. The other challenge that comes with running more than 1-2 copies is the additional strain on the mana base.
Aven Mindcensor is probably in the slot that changes the most in my board. It comes in vs. Tron, Titan/Shift decks, Chord decks, KOTR decks and Death Shadow Jund. It's not particularly good against any of them to be honest and I typically switch back and forth between it and a 2nd Magus if the Moon. Just given the number of MUs it's not particularly great in G1 I'd prefer to keep it in the board. Also, there isn't a 3 drop or 2 drop in the main I'd cut for it currently.
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Eternal Witness
3x Fauna Shaman
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3x Kitchen Finks
1x Magus of the Moon
3x Noble Hierarch
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Restoration Angel
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
1x Village Bell-Ringer
3x Voice of Resurgence
1x Breeding Pool
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
2x Grove of the Burnwillows
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (10)
3x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
3x Path to Exile
1x Aven Mindcensor
2x Blood Moon
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
1x Stony Silence
G/x Tron - 7-9 (44%)
GR Titan - 5-10 (33%)
Junk - 10-5 (67%)
Death's Shadow Jund - 12-8 (60%)
Affinity - 9-4 (69%)
Dredge - 9-10 (47%)
Bant Eldrazi - 13-7 (65%)
Burn - 11-8 (58%)
I'be been pretty busy recently and haven't gotten to do as much testing as I'd wanted. I highly recommend figuring out how to play Grove of the Burnwillows in whatever you're testing right now if you haven't already.
You're also comparing what is essentially a combo oriented ramp deck with a toolbox to a value based midrange-toolbox strategy and talking as if though MU's are even remotely similar.
While I find your list interesting and definitely capable of producing large amounts of mana early on it's hardly comparable to the game plan of most Kiki Chord variants discussed here.