It is a very nice hatebear. But as you mention white 2-drops are very interchangeable, and I don't think necessarily outcompete the other 2-drops we already have access to. The Opposition Agent effect is a lot stronger than this, as it actively disrupts the search while giving you the card - while this only gives you the card without disrupting the actual search. Stopping a Tinker or Entomb will most likey win you the game. Drawing a card of them digs you towards an answer, but leaves you on the back foot. Of course, Opposition Agent is 3 mana, while this is 2, so the comparison is not fair.
I think Opposition Agent has mostly underperformed in a cube environment, and I don't play it anymore. The density of searching simply isn't that high. Most decks play 1-2 fetches, and then maybe 0-2 tutor effects on top of that. Add to that fact that any fetch in the opening hand tends to get played and cracked on turn 1, they often sneak under Opposition Agent - and I would assume the same is true for this card. So I believe in most matchups, this would draw 1-2 cards at most, often drawing 0. Of course, it has some synergy with cards like Path to Exile, Field of Ruin and such, which is sweet. But I don't think that synergy is enough to make it a consistent card advantage engine.
I would also disagree on the opportunity cost of adding it. A lot of decks are not interested in a bear at all, and most control decks would not want to play this I believe, even if it gains a few life. So it is mainly the aggro and tempo decks that are interested, and these would often like to have other options. Cards like Thalia that actually disrupt gives tempo advantages instead of card advantage, and 3 power 2-drops like Porcelain Legionnaire will in many cases simply be better.
I like that white's hatebear option keeps getting expanded, as it makes it easier to adjust and adapt the cube for the environment that one wants. And I think this is a very welcome addition. But I don't think it outcompetes the existing suite of 2-drops on power level.
I'd say Farewell is a much, much more interesting card than Cleansing Nova. Being 5 mana over 6 is however a considerable downside, as a turns difference can make all the difference for a sweeper. However, if you were going purely for power perspective, the 4-mana versions which you have already ruled out would probably be the pick. So it sounds to me like for your cube environment, Farewell is the pick.
Have you considered Ondu Inversion or Realm-Cloaked Giant? I would consider these interesting options if I was looking for a sweeper that was a bit different to the normal 4-mana Wraths.
Has anyone played with Saheeli in the last few years? Retrofitter Foundry is a card that has increased the value of having servos and thopters around.
I am making some adjustments to my cube and was looking at my Izzet section and I was a bit sad about not finding room for Lutri, the Spellchaser and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer. I find both to be cool designs and they do interesting things. Neither make the cut for top Izzet cards in my opinion though. However, as both are hybrid, I figured maybe I should just add them as a a red and a blue card. I feel this makes sense from a color balancing perspective, but then I am unsure if Saheeli is actually good enough to see any particular play. I guess I will just put them in and see how often they get played.
You Rotisseried every Modern card? Nice! I suppose this was online drafting?
This is getting a bit off-topic, so I will keep my answer a bit short. And moderators, please feel free to delete this if you think it clogs up the post.
In a modern rotisserie draft, every modern card is a legal pick - but you typically only pick 45 cards per player, or 360 cards in total. As you typically draft in a snake pattern, some groups prefer 46 picks per player, so that you get to finish the final "wheel".
We drafted online using google sheets. A so-called asynchronous draft where people pick when they have time. For our play group it took about a week to finish. Then I assembled the decks physically and we met to play out the matches. We do 8-person drafts and play round robin, i.e., 7 rounds.
I'm not sure I am allowed to post a link to the draft sheet itself, but if you are curious, send me a private message and I can send you the link.
As you mention, Chain of Smog goes infinite with Sedgemoor Witch. But there are plenty of other cards from Strixhaven that does the same, which could be added to give some redundancy to the "combo". It's a combo I sometimes see drafted in vintage rotisserie drafts.
Leonin Lightscribe ("Team-prowess" is a pretty cool effect even outside the combo)
My assessment is that Chain of Smog isn't good enough in pushed cubes, but can be a pretty wicked combo to support in B/GB if one is trying to support more combo or simply look a bit outside the common archetypes/themes.
From my recollection, Wild Growth and Utopia Sprawl were never all that popular back in the day. But when I look at lists these days, I see it more than I ever have to be honest. I was asking wtwlf123 about this just the other day on his cube list thread. I'll quote my question and his reply at the bottom here, in case it adds to the discussion.
As you mention untappers, I would say Garruk Wildspeaker is an untapper that most cubes still seem to be playing, so don't forget to factor him in. I personally don't play these effects at 360, as I'd rather have dorks (better with equipment, Craterhoof Behemoth, Recurring Nightmare, Survival of the Fittest, and much else). But I think these go way up in value if you support Oath of Druids/Selvala's Stampede - as then you can't play the dorks, and having 1-drop non-creature ramp seems really good.
[...] I am quite a fan of seeing Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl in the list, but I am struggling a bit with seeing "what changed" to make these playable. I'm not really noticing any new cards that interact with these in any specific ways. Am I overlooking something? When looking for discussion I found a 10-year old post where you wrote that you prefer dorks over these and wouldn't play them if you didn't run out of dorks. So is the answer that you simply ran out of dorks to add? Are they playing better than Elves of Deep Shadow/Avacyn's Pilgrim?
[...] Nothing has really changed, except the speed of the cube has made 1cc ramp even more desirable than ever. So in that sense, I guess I "ran out of dorks". 1cc ramp is just good, and I already play all the Llanowar Elves I want to. I like them more than the mana dorks that have a drawback or tap for colorless, but not more than the creatures that unconditionally produce colored mana. I do play Pilgrim (in ). Selvala's Stampede is a card that wants green ramp but doesn't necessarily want mana dorks, so that's one new(ish) card that has increased their value.
Thanks for the responses! I totally agree that it is heavily context dependent, just wanted to hear some thoughts. Had also completely forgotten that Censor is a card at all, but I agree that it is comparable to Jwari Isle as the modal force spike variant. Interesting that you rank Mana Leak over Lose Focus. My first gut instinct is that it can't be right, as Mana Leak is an all star in so many formats with such a long history. But you have a great point that there are quite few situations where Mana Leak actually is better. Still don't think I could cut Mana Leak for Lose Focus (think my play group would protest), but now I might try to find room for both.
Small Lose Focus story: I was playing a Modern Rotisserie draft with my play group and most of the "known" counters had gone, so I picked the recently printed Lose Focus. The player drafting RG was dissing my pick, saying I should have gone Condescend, as it seemed much better. In our first game I Lose Focused his Bloodbraid + the cascaded spell, and he had to admit he hadn't realized that interaction. Felt good.
Hi wtwlf123! I haven't had a chance to play or update my cube for a few years sadly. However, now some friends want to borrow my cube for a multi-format tournament they're gonna hold, so I am trying to get with the times. Your cube is of course source numero uno, and thanks for putting in the continous work with updating, refining, writing articles, giving advice and feedback etc - you really make the cubing environment great.
Quick specific question to your current iteration of the cube. I am quite a fan of seeing Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl in the list, but I am struggling a bit with seeing "what changed" to make these playable. I'm not really noticing any new cards that interact with these in any specific ways. Am I overlooking something? When looking for discussion I found a 10-year old post where you wrote that you prefer dorks over these and wouldn't play them if you didn't run out of dorks. So is the answer that you simply ran out of dorks to add? Are they playing better than Elves of Deep Shadow/Avacyn's Pilgrim?
I think interrogate them is stronger than cycling. It hits land much more reliably when that’s what you need, and it hits nonland much more reliably when that’s what you need.
I also think draw one of the top 3 of your opponent's deck is better than cycling if the mana cost is the same. The downside is, of course, that if you're missing red you can't "cycle" this.
I disagree with this. Interrogate can be better in certain cases, but I'd rather have cycling most of the time. The reason is twofold: (1) I'd rather draw from my own deck than my opponents. I've built my deck to be synergistic and streamlined and my opponent will in many matchups have plenty of dead draws. You also mention you are much more likely to hit lands when you need them, and while this is true, the lands will often be off-color, which is a considerable downside. (2) Draw is much, much stronger than exile+castable until the end of the next turn. Many reactive cards from your opponents top might be sweet, but not usable at the moment. It is also visible, so you are giving away information. This effect also means that playing interrogate early game leaves you in a bad spot, in case you flip cards that are too expensive for your next round.
I think the two effects combined means "look at 3" often becomes simply worse than simply drawing a card from your own deck. If interrogate exiled the card and made it playable permanently, I would agree with you.
This is essentially red's version of Wilt, except worse since it can't hit enchantments, and you're better off just cycling instead of casting Anticipate on your opponent's deck.
Agreed. If someone is after a red Wilt variant, isn't Shredded Sails straight up a better card? As you mention, Cycling 2 is better than opponent anticipate in most cases, and Sails even has a third mode that might be relevant once in a while. Just for clarity: I am completely uninterested in both Shredded Sails and You Find Some Prisoners in my cube, underwhelming cards.
The negative feedback to this card is making me question how good Sorin, Lord of Innistrad still is.
I still play Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and think he is fine. But I definitely think the power creep in the last five years means his power level compared to the rest of the cube has significantly dropped.
Another comparison is Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which I still think is great. I see many people both here and on reddit claim Elspeth isn't good enough for cube anymore, but I think that is a bit ludicrous. However, I think comparing this new red walker to Elspeth shows were it falls flat on several faces. First of, making tokens on a +1 like Sorin and Elspeth, is a lot better than +0'ing, as they are slowly ticking towards their ultimate and also get harder to kill. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar get's a pass on his +0 because 2/2's are significantly better than 1/1's. Also, both Sorin's -2 anthem and Elspeth's +1 targeted buff compare very favorably to Zariels. Sorin's is a permanent buff to all creatures, which obviously is a lot better, while Elspeth's buff importantly grants evasion and makes a single target very beefy. Elspeth often lets me sneak through with a sword-caring token or something for huge impact. The haste on Zarial has a high ceiling, but it seems low impact compared to Elspeths effect. Lastly, Zariels ultimate seems low impact and does nothing for you unless you have control over the board. Effectively, Zariel pretty much only creates tokens, while Sorin/Elspeth seem more like actual planeswalkers with options that are more relevant and good ultimates.
In summary, I play Sorin and Elspeth at 360, and will probably continue with this for now. I'm not going to test Zariel I think, unless others post that she is overperforming.
I think the comparison to Looter il-Kor is a bit weird. I still play Looter at 360, and love the card. But I play it mainly because it is the second best looter (in my opinion). This card is an evasive beater with some value when it connects, it isn't a looter. The two cards play very different roles, and there are plenty of decks I play looter il-kor where this would be completely uninteresting.
On an unrelated note, I think people are overrating the evasion slightly. In a tempo shell, especially UR or UW, attack alone is often a steep cost and I think this card will play worse than it looks in many cases.
I think Opposition Agent has mostly underperformed in a cube environment, and I don't play it anymore. The density of searching simply isn't that high. Most decks play 1-2 fetches, and then maybe 0-2 tutor effects on top of that. Add to that fact that any fetch in the opening hand tends to get played and cracked on turn 1, they often sneak under Opposition Agent - and I would assume the same is true for this card. So I believe in most matchups, this would draw 1-2 cards at most, often drawing 0. Of course, it has some synergy with cards like Path to Exile, Field of Ruin and such, which is sweet. But I don't think that synergy is enough to make it a consistent card advantage engine.
I would also disagree on the opportunity cost of adding it. A lot of decks are not interested in a bear at all, and most control decks would not want to play this I believe, even if it gains a few life. So it is mainly the aggro and tempo decks that are interested, and these would often like to have other options. Cards like Thalia that actually disrupt gives tempo advantages instead of card advantage, and 3 power 2-drops like Porcelain Legionnaire will in many cases simply be better.
I like that white's hatebear option keeps getting expanded, as it makes it easier to adjust and adapt the cube for the environment that one wants. And I think this is a very welcome addition. But I don't think it outcompetes the existing suite of 2-drops on power level.
Have you considered Ondu Inversion or Realm-Cloaked Giant? I would consider these interesting options if I was looking for a sweeper that was a bit different to the normal 4-mana Wraths.
I am making some adjustments to my cube and was looking at my Izzet section and I was a bit sad about not finding room for Lutri, the Spellchaser and Saheeli, Sublime Artificer. I find both to be cool designs and they do interesting things. Neither make the cut for top Izzet cards in my opinion though. However, as both are hybrid, I figured maybe I should just add them as a a red and a blue card. I feel this makes sense from a color balancing perspective, but then I am unsure if Saheeli is actually good enough to see any particular play. I guess I will just put them in and see how often they get played.
This is getting a bit off-topic, so I will keep my answer a bit short. And moderators, please feel free to delete this if you think it clogs up the post.
In a modern rotisserie draft, every modern card is a legal pick - but you typically only pick 45 cards per player, or 360 cards in total. As you typically draft in a snake pattern, some groups prefer 46 picks per player, so that you get to finish the final "wheel".
We drafted online using google sheets. A so-called asynchronous draft where people pick when they have time. For our play group it took about a week to finish. Then I assembled the decks physically and we met to play out the matches. We do 8-person drafts and play round robin, i.e., 7 rounds.
I'm not sure I am allowed to post a link to the draft sheet itself, but if you are curious, send me a private message and I can send you the link.
I would say the best ones are probably
- Sedgemoor Witch (is already played in plenty of cubes)
- Witherbloom Apprentice (can be tutored with GSZ)
- Dragonsguard Elite (Can be tutored with GSZ)
- Leonin Lightscribe ("Team-prowess" is a pretty cool effect even outside the combo)
My assessment is that Chain of Smog isn't good enough in pushed cubes, but can be a pretty wicked combo to support in B/GB if one is trying to support more combo or simply look a bit outside the common archetypes/themes.As you mention untappers, I would say Garruk Wildspeaker is an untapper that most cubes still seem to be playing, so don't forget to factor him in. I personally don't play these effects at 360, as I'd rather have dorks (better with equipment, Craterhoof Behemoth, Recurring Nightmare, Survival of the Fittest, and much else). But I think these go way up in value if you support Oath of Druids/Selvala's Stampede - as then you can't play the dorks, and having 1-drop non-creature ramp seems really good.
Small Lose Focus story: I was playing a Modern Rotisserie draft with my play group and most of the "known" counters had gone, so I picked the recently printed Lose Focus. The player drafting RG was dissing my pick, saying I should have gone Condescend, as it seemed much better. In our first game I Lose Focused his Bloodbraid + the cascaded spell, and he had to admit he hadn't realized that interaction. Felt good.
Quick specific question to your current iteration of the cube. I am quite a fan of seeing Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl in the list, but I am struggling a bit with seeing "what changed" to make these playable. I'm not really noticing any new cards that interact with these in any specific ways. Am I overlooking something? When looking for discussion I found a 10-year old post where you wrote that you prefer dorks over these and wouldn't play them if you didn't run out of dorks. So is the answer that you simply ran out of dorks to add? Are they playing better than Elves of Deep Shadow/Avacyn's Pilgrim?
I disagree with this. Interrogate can be better in certain cases, but I'd rather have cycling most of the time. The reason is twofold: (1) I'd rather draw from my own deck than my opponents. I've built my deck to be synergistic and streamlined and my opponent will in many matchups have plenty of dead draws. You also mention you are much more likely to hit lands when you need them, and while this is true, the lands will often be off-color, which is a considerable downside. (2) Draw is much, much stronger than exile+castable until the end of the next turn. Many reactive cards from your opponents top might be sweet, but not usable at the moment. It is also visible, so you are giving away information. This effect also means that playing interrogate early game leaves you in a bad spot, in case you flip cards that are too expensive for your next round.
I think the two effects combined means "look at 3" often becomes simply worse than simply drawing a card from your own deck. If interrogate exiled the card and made it playable permanently, I would agree with you.
Agreed. If someone is after a red Wilt variant, isn't Shredded Sails straight up a better card? As you mention, Cycling 2 is better than opponent anticipate in most cases, and Sails even has a third mode that might be relevant once in a while. Just for clarity: I am completely uninterested in both Shredded Sails and You Find Some Prisoners in my cube, underwhelming cards.
I still play Sorin, Lord of Innistrad and think he is fine. But I definitely think the power creep in the last five years means his power level compared to the rest of the cube has significantly dropped.
Another comparison is Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which I still think is great. I see many people both here and on reddit claim Elspeth isn't good enough for cube anymore, but I think that is a bit ludicrous. However, I think comparing this new red walker to Elspeth shows were it falls flat on several faces. First of, making tokens on a +1 like Sorin and Elspeth, is a lot better than +0'ing, as they are slowly ticking towards their ultimate and also get harder to kill. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar get's a pass on his +0 because 2/2's are significantly better than 1/1's. Also, both Sorin's -2 anthem and Elspeth's +1 targeted buff compare very favorably to Zariels. Sorin's is a permanent buff to all creatures, which obviously is a lot better, while Elspeth's buff importantly grants evasion and makes a single target very beefy. Elspeth often lets me sneak through with a sword-caring token or something for huge impact. The haste on Zarial has a high ceiling, but it seems low impact compared to Elspeths effect. Lastly, Zariels ultimate seems low impact and does nothing for you unless you have control over the board. Effectively, Zariel pretty much only creates tokens, while Sorin/Elspeth seem more like actual planeswalkers with options that are more relevant and good ultimates.
In summary, I play Sorin and Elspeth at 360, and will probably continue with this for now. I'm not going to test Zariel I think, unless others post that she is overperforming.
On an unrelated note, I think people are overrating the evasion slightly. In a tempo shell, especially UR or UW, attack alone is often a steep cost and I think this card will play worse than it looks in many cases.
Add double U on to that list.