So the newest list I believe is quite possibly the optimal Winter Orb / Root Maze list. Like I said before Root Maze on it's own is nuts against 80% of the decks in the meta as most decks run fetch lands thus forcing an opponent to wait three turns before getting any access to mana from these lands. Further more Root Maze can single handedly shut down most combo decks especially storm and it soft locks nicely with Winter Orb.
Anyhow, in the new list I have cut Sphere of Resistance for a pair of Trinisphere and Umezawa's Jittes for crowd control. With testing I've gone back to running Trinisphere which should be dropped after your mana engine has been set up. It has great synergy with Root Maze and even better synergy with Winter Orb. Jitte for obvious reasons as the deck was light on crowd control and in the event you don't get your Primal Order it furthers your aggro package, it just has so many tricks. One of which is it's synergy with Wickerbough Elder, which is why I cut Reclamation Sage.
Another change is that I've added a lone Vorapede. Vorapede has been overlooked in favor of Thragtusk in other builds because of it's GGG2 casting cost, but here without running Sol Lands we actually have access to the GGG. He doesn't gain you life but he is considerably better than Thragtusk. He's bigger, harder to kill and comes back as a 6/5 rather than a 3/3. Plus he has trample and vigilance. He's easy to cast off of GSZ and is a nice alternative as a Primal Order target in the event that you happened to draw Progenitus (pitching Progenitus to Masticore is handy for shuffling him back into your deck btw).
Anyhow, here is the new list. In testing, I'm really really liking the new changes.
You might want to check out Pyromancer Pox. I wrote a thread about it a while back. I had the deck together for a while and it was certainly competitive. It beat up on Delver variants but I didn't get to test it through the entire gauntlet.
SYNERGIES AND STRATEGIES
Smallpox + Young Pyromancer, cast Smallpox, Pyromancer triggers, sac token.
Smallpox + Young Pyromancer token.
Smallpox + Lingering Souls in hand.
Smallpox + Lingering Souls token in play.
Smallpox + Bloodghast in hand.
Smallpox + Bloodghast in play.
Cabal Therapy if pitched by Smallpox.
Cabal Therapy + Young Pyromancer token.
Cabal Therapy + Bloodghast.
Cabal Therapy + Lingering Souls token.
Young Pyromancer + Lingering Souls from hand then from the yard.
Young Pyromancer + any of the 28 sorceries and instants.
Dark Confidant keeps your hand full of burn, disruption and removal spells to feed Pyromancer. Pyromancer never takes a hit from Smallpox as his ability triggers before Smallpox resolves thus allowing you to sac the token.
Ports are really bad with Winter Orb. Like really bad. Also, the low land count reflects that I get my mana from sources other than multiple lands. The idea is to get Orb into play, especially with Root Maze. The deck operates quite well with one land, any extra lands just come into play tapped and don't untap. Mostly I'll drop them as fuel for Sylvan Safekeeper or I'll hang on to them to bluff my opponent and/or to fuel Masticore, but really I don't want to top deck land especially after my engine is set up. Outside of that I really don't want to see more than one to two lands opening hand.
I've really considered Garruck and even tested him but really I get plenty of mana. Often, I get so much mana that I don't know what to do with so I don't feel he's necessary, especially as a four drop when I can drop bigger bombs such as Primal Order.
What happens 90% of the time is that you stack a land with Wild Growths and drop one of the 8 Arbor Elves (thanks to GSZ) to crank out an obscene amount of mana. I've been doing a ton of testing and the land count is not even an issue unless I don't draw one at all. There are over 30 mana sources counting GSZ, ESG, Arbor Elves, Growths etc.. The only danger is either not drawing one at all or stacking Wild Growths on one land and putting all my eggs in one basket. Fortunately, Sinkhole and Ghost Quarter are not super popular in the current meta and Forests are Wasteland proof.
I actually have a new list if anyone wants to see it. It's not terribly different but I've cut the Sphere of Resistance package for other options and it is considerably more consistent. Also, bigger bombs.
Yeah, I'd actually really like to see your list as well drmarkb.
BTW, I've managed to tune my Winter Orb build. I'd like to see the newer more updated Sol Lands builds so that I can test them and see which style is better. Not totally sold that the Winter Orb route is better but I've had really good results with my new build. It just wrecks most combo and D&T match ups have been decent. New changes include cutting Tanglewire, Trinisphere and Jitte for more efficient bombs and I'm really liking it.
Often, I'll get some explosive opening hands such as Forest, Arbor Elf, Root Maze, Natural Order, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Growth. Turn one play a Forest, pitch ESG casting Wild Growth, tap Growthed Forest, cast Root Maze then Arbor Elf and pass the turn. Your opponent won't really get a turn but rather a tapped land drop due to Root Maze. Turn two, tap Growthed Forest, untap with Arbor Elf, tap it again Natural Order for Progenitus and follow up with Winter Orb or Sphere of Resistance. Game over. Here's my current list.
Good point on Dryad Arbor. Definitely cutting one for another Forest.
Yeah, Thrun is tempting. Maybe as a one of. I do actually really like the Leatherback Baloths. I notice that I can afford them at 3 mana and often I feel that if they were another creature such as a four drop I wouldn't have the mana for them. I should probably cut a Baloth to add in Thrun.
I think you are spot on with running 4x Trinishphere and cutting Sphere of Resistance entirely. I do like that I can pitch duplicates to Masticore. This is also true of extra Winter Orbs and Root Mazes. EDIT: I just have been testing the Trinispheres and they are not all that good with all of the one drops in the deck. If I drop a turn two 3Sphere it makes it difficult for me to cast future Wild Growths, etc... The deck was actually works quite nice with Sphere of Resistance.
Am I running the right creature set and am I running enough heavy beatsticks? What about running a werewolf token engine by cutting both Masticores for 2x Master of the Wild Hunt and cutting the 4 Leatherback Baloth for 4x Mayor of Avabruck? I haven't tested Mayor of Avabruck, my hope is that with Root Maze and Winter Orb my opponent shouldn't be casting too many spells thus helping him transform. Or is that just trying to squeeze too many combos into the deck? I do have Green Sun's Zenith to help set it up and I do really like Mayor's casting cost. He's 1 cheaper than Baloth, I just don't know how effective he is as I've never tested him in anything. The Baloth / Masticore set up is better right?
Hey guys. So, I've had relative success with my budget Mono Green Prison deck which I wrote a short primer for last year. The link can be found here. After toying around with the non-budget builds here in the Trinity Green thread I'm feeling I might be on to something.
It's my inkling that mixing elements of both decks together might be the route to go. One thing I'm not liking about Trinity Green is the mana base. Ancient Tomb just straight up hurts you and City of Traitors is not all that dependable. Since we're running green I'm not seeing that it is necessary to go the Sol Land route. We are running green after all. There are two main reason to run Sol Lands, one is for Chalice and two is for if you are running colors such as white that don't have access to ramp.
I am proposing a new mana engine and with this engine you literally have to run a different lock mechanism. It requires a lot of one drops which you obviously cannot run if you are playing with Chalice. The engine is more dependable but the question is: Is it worth it at the loss of Chalice? Both have their pros and cons.
This lock mechanism is dope! First you get Root Maze which you simply cannot run with Chalice. Root Maze single handedly destroys most combo. It also wrecks decks running fetch lands which is about 85-90% of the competitive decks in the meta. Combine this with Winter Orb and you've slowed your opponent to a crawl. This being said like Chalice + Sol Lands you can still drop major turn one threats. Root Maze turn one is crazy, especially followed up with a turn two Sphere of Resistance / Winter Orb.
The mana engine I propose is Arbor Elf plus Wild Growth / Utopia Sprawl. With Green Sun's Zenith, getting this together is not a problem. This is more dependable than Sol Lands and it is NUTS combined with Winter Orb. Once again you don't get Chalice but is that okay? You really do get a nice lock with Root Maze and Winter Orb. Both of which are nuts on their own. Often, this engine you get a turn two Lodestone Golem. The ramp far exceeds Sol Lands and doesn't punish you half as much.
Not totally sold on everything especially the beatz, but the lock mechanisms and mana engine are crazy good.
Masticore is crazy here btw. In particular against D&T and Elves. I cannot express how good he is here in this deck. In particular with the mana / ramp engine. A double Wild Growthed Forest with an Arbor Elf in play shuts down so many weenies. I'm considering adding a third one.
Leatherback Baloth I'm not totally sold on but he has a huge body for three mana. I really want to run Goyfs here but there are not enough cards that go to the graveyard to fuel him. There are a really limited number of sorceries (4), no instants and no fetch lands (because of Root Maze).
Sylvan Safekeeper is crazy here. With Winter Orb and Root Maze out you will notice that you have a ton of lands but they are all tapped with the exception of your Wild Growthed land that you continue to untap under Winter Orb. These lands are perfect for pitching to Safekeeper. I really want to run Titania, Protector of Argoth. Maybe I should add one for synergies.
Thoughts on going this route? I've had really good match ups with D&T.
Knightware in Los Angeles is extremely competitive. Tournaments typically range from 50-80 players. I've never gotten my ass handed to me so fast other than Star City Games events.
Muse Comics in Montana is a really beautiful and nicely ran store although almost nobody shows up for Legacy. This is likely due to the size of Missoula Montana. Even though it's a college town there are only about 80,000 people.
Hey guys, the first card on my list is Mana Drain. Sure it's good. It's really good. In particular with Vintage Keeper control strategies. It combos nicely with cards such as Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius. But who even plays those in Legacy? I don't see it breaking the format anytime soon. It's barely ran in any Vintage deck lists.
Mind Twist. Even in Vintage you rarely see this card. Un-ban it today in Legacy and you might see it in some Pox lists but it's still no Hymn to Tourach. Like Black Vise and World Gorger Dragon, it won't be breaking the format anytime soon.
Yawgmoth's Bargain. This might be the most controversial card on my list. Awesome card, in particular in combo decks. I don't see it as a staple in any Vintage decks and I'd love to see it the Legacy format at least for a few months just to see what sort of decks pop up. I'm assuming there might be a spike in price with Academy Rector but to be honest I don't see it breaking the format.
Your budget list looks not too shabby. Along the lines of the old Turbo Discard builds that predated 8Rack back in the early 2000's. It operates more along the lines of a fast aggro deck with with heavy disruption. If you want to go with a more control route definitely pick up Pox or 8Rack strategies with Ensnaring Bridge etc.. There are lots of threads on those.
First you are running a ton of mana. With Dark Ritual you are running 24 mana sources, you really only need 20 tops. I'd like to see you cut 6x Swamp and add 4x Mishra's Factory + 2x Urborb, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Then cut 4x Dark Ritual for more removal. Rituals are nice, particularly in combo decks but here I think you will not want the card disadvantage that it offers. Preferably replace it with mass removal that won't affect your Factories and Racks such as Toxic Deluge, Massacre, or Mutilate.
Nyxathid is decent on paper but I think that after you test him you will realize that he usually doesn't get as big as you want. For tempo purposes you might want to go with the old Turbo Discard option and consider Skittering Skirge instead.
Your discard numbers look about right. My old Turbo Discard build ran 21-22 discard spells counting Hypnotic Specter. The approach to this style of discard deck is different than that of Pox and 8Rack strategies that try to control your opponent, so for late game run a pair of Cursed Scroll for removal and additional damage.
EDIT:
Turbo Discard has been my archetype for 15+ years. Here's a budgetish list that I'd recommend. There are 20 one drops, 12 two drops and 6 three drops and 2 four drops.
We thought about that and I addressed it a bit with Echoing Truth as your main deck defense to responding to an opponent's Abrupt Decay targeting Sphinx's Tutelage. Game one your opponent will really be scratching their head trying to figure out what you are playing. Likely their AD will be wasted on other threats such as Propaganda etc.. In the event they do know what you are playing you are really wanting to mill away one to two of your opponent's Abrupt Decays leaving your deck with at least two to three Sphinx's Tutelage and two to one Abrupt Decays in our opponent's library. The opponent can't destroy all of our ST if 1-2 of their AD have already been milled. Aside from that yes, Abrupt Decay is a problem, we really address it game two with 4x Surgical Extraction on the sideboard. Also remember, this is a budget deck so you are likely not going to be sweeping any large tournaments but for the price tag it is extremely competitive and will mop up a good share decks. It's considerably more effective than it looks on paper.
Okay kiddos. I've got another competitive budget legacy brew for you to stomp the $H!T out of your annoying friends without having to drop $800 plus for a set of Wastelands and Lilianas. This deck is called General Mills for the obvious reason that you mill your opponent out of the game. This ain't no ordinary average crap mill deck running crap scrub cards such as Tome Scour and Mind Sculpt. General Mills offers a gnarly prison style lock, and a butt load of counters, removal and draw spells. If you like playing control and you like winning games you are going to really enjoy this deck.
Winter Orb / Propaganda / Sphinx's Tutelage Your main strategy here is to stall your opponent and drop a Winter Orb locking up their mana. You will then follow up with a well placed Propaganda putting them in a seriously bad situation. They can choose to spend their precious locked up mana either to pay Propaganda costs and attack or they can attempt to cast a spell which you will likely counter. Note, Propaganda is cumulative in that stacking them will only further frustrate your opponent. Finally you will drop 1-3 Sphinx's Tutelage and with twelve strong main deck draw spells you will deck them in a few short turns. This happens considerably faster than what appears on paper, it is extremely effective. Seriously though, you will run into Emrakul and Abrupt Decay in Legacy. If you want to be competitive tournament wise, replace Sphinx with 4x True Name Nemesis when you get the cash and cut 2x Winter Orb for 2x Back to Basics.
COUNTER MAGIC:
Daze If there was ever a deck aside from Canadian Threshold or Stasis that benefits from a card like Daze this is it. Since your opponent's mana will be tied up with Winter Orb this is a no brainer as your opponent will not have the mana to pay for it's cost, but also it is nice in that it's drawback of returning an Island to your hand is actually a benefit in that you can replay it under Winter Orb "UNTAPPED".
Muddle the Mixture Sure it's not the best counterspell but it's "Transmute" ability ensures that you will get your much needed Winter Orb and also allows you to tutor up your lone Echoing Truth in a pinch. Plus, it's a counterspell.
Counterspell and Spell Pierce These are no brainers. Two of the best counter magic spells in the game that won't break your budget.
DRAW
Ancestral Vision Now that Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise are out of the picture this is hands down the best draw spell available for blue control decks.
Brainstorm This card is ran obviously because it digs into the deck and is nice for hiding cards from your opponent's discard spells. The text of Brainstorm says: "Draw three cards". That being said it can often mill up to ten of your opponent's cards under a single Sphinx's Tutelage. Under two ST you can mill upwards of twenty cards. The list I have posted above does not run fetch lands for budget purposes which is fine, but seriously, buy yourself of set of Polluted Deltas and stop being wussy. They're only going to go up in value. You really want them here so that you can capitalize on Brainstorm by shuffling away your unwanted cards such as multiple copies of Winter Orb.
Rhystic Study This slot used to be Accumulated Knowledge but after testing Rhystic Study has proven to be the best draw spell for the job. The synergy it has whith Daze, Spell Pierce, Winter Orb and bounce spells is incredible.
Monastery Siege Another solid choice, great synergy with everything in the deck. You get draw, protection, what else do you need?
RAMP
Talisman of Dominance Not the fastest ramp spell in the game but also not the slowest as it doesn't come into play tapped such as Sky Diamond. Talisman of Dominance is here not only to ramp up your mana quickly but to ease the strain of Winter Orb on your mana supply. Your non-budget alternative is Chrome Mox, but honestly I really like the Talisman as you don't sacrifice card advantage for speed.
REMOVAL / BOUNCE
Unsummon / Echoing Truth These are pretty self explanatory however it is important to point out the synergy between bounce spells and Winter Orb. Echoing Truth can also save a Sphinx's Tutelage etc.. from an opponent's timely Abrupt Decay.
SIDEBOARD
This will be a work in progress however Cursed Totem and Surgical Extraction are absolute musts here and note that many of the cards on the sideboard are searchable with Muddle the Mixture. Elves can be a *****. Cursed Totem is your best friend here. Surgical Extraction is your protection from Abrupt Decay game two.
HONORABLE MENTION
If you really wanted to pimp out this deck you would likely run Force of Will over Counterspell and Chrome Mox over Talisman of Dominance however the deck is incredibly strong without them. Again, I highly recommend getting a set of Polluted Delta or some other fetch land to replace four of your Islands to maximize your Brainstorm potential. The following is a list of cards I did initially try but opted to cut after testing.
Visions of Beyond and Accumulated Knowledge I actually really want to run these cards. Visions of Beyond really shines late game as does Accumulated Knowledge but I'm not sure which is better. You can go by preference. Sadly VB isn't searchable with Muddle the Mixture as is AK. Rhystic Study has really taken the cake in this slot due to incredible synergy.
Gitaxian Probe These are great, but I couldn't find the room squeeze them in.
Mystic Remora This was initially tested but axed due to it's poor synergy with Winter Orb.
See Beyond Another good choice in the Accumulatd Knowledge / Rystic Study slot. It draws, digs, hides extra Winter Orbs and shuffles the deck. It doesn't however net you card advantage.
Tangle Wire Great card in this deck. The casting cost is a bit high as I'd like to see the mana curve lower especially since we are running Winter Orb but this card synergizes extremely well in this deck. Feel free and test it.
Snap A good alternative to Unsummon, possibly better as it untaps land under Winter Orb.
Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg Either of these two should probably find their way at least into the sideboard if not main deck.
Arcanis the Omnipotent He's a killer dude, seemingly created for this deck but his casting cost is considerably high for a deck running Winter Orb. He also will likely become the target of removal the second you cast him as there are no other creatures.
Jace's Phantasm Cool card. Not as good as Delver of Secrets and like Arcanis running a few lone creatures in the deck only leads to your opponent finally getting to dump those removal spells that have been sitting in their hand all game.
Tome Scour / Mind Sculpt Lets start by mentioning that these types of cards suck bad. They do nothing else for you but a one time shot at milling your opponent a few cards. Utterly worthless. Don't test them.
So there you have it. I'll be adding to this thread over time. Feel free to add suggestions and have fun kicking the snot out of your buddies. Credits to this deck go to none other than myself and my good buddy Travis Hoiland the Magic guru.
Let me start by saying that I've been playing Stasis off and on since Turbo Stasis was the only deck that could beat Necropotence back in the Ice Age / Mirage days. I've toyed with Squandered and Root Maze Stasis but really like the resilience of mono blue. I don't think that there will be anything printed in the near future that will bring Stasis decks tier 1 anytime soon although they are a blast to play and some builds can be effective against a decent chunk of decks out there. Right now I'm playing mono blue and I feel my current build is tuned fairly well. Here's my current list:
For the most part most of cards in the deck are self explainable. Here are some explanations on the others:
Preordain. I chose Preordain over Brainstorm + Fetchland for the reason that running fetchies thins your deck of much needed Islands to keep Stasis alive. It also actually digs deeper into the deck to help get your Stasis.
Chronatog is here as the alternative kill to Black Vise in the event you get hit with Extirpate, Cranial Extraction, Meddling Mage etc.. It also can be tutored for with Muddle the Mixture.
Tel-Jilad Stylus is really good for removing Stasis at the end of your opponent's turn so that you can untap and hopefully play another Stasis the following turn. It is better than Despotic Scepter in that it puts your Stasis at the bottom of your deck so that it can be recast if necessary later in the game. Claws of Gix is actually the worst of the three as you are forced to pay 1 at the end of your opponent's turn. Stylus and Scepter are better as you cast them "before" Stasis hits the table and use them later without having to use your last mana source to destroy Stasis.
Lotus Petal Any builds not running Lotus Petal need to reconsider. It allows you to drop Stasis a turn earlier and also it speeds you up once the Stasis soft lock is secure, especially when drawing off of Howling Mine and Ancestral Vision.
Muddle the Mixture is a no brainer in mono blue builds considering you don't have access to other tutors such as Lim Dul's Vault and Enlightened Tutor. IMO, you can't play mono blue Stasis without it. Plus it's a counter spell. What's not to like?
Finally the transformational sideboard. This is the part of the deck that I am most proud. Cutting Stasis pieces for Winter Orb + Propaganda combo is really nice when you are going up against speedy aggro decks which happen to be Stasis' worst match up. It works by soft locking up your opponents creatures and lands as you counter your opponent's most irritating spells while beating down with an unblockable untargetable TNN. Echoing Truth is great for returning annoying permanents to your opponent's hand causing them to tie up more mana under Winter Orb in order to recast it. This transformational sideboard is so good against fast aggro decks that I actually sometimes run it as a stand alone deck with a few changes of course. It also throws off your opponent whom will be sideboarding against Stasis game two. And don't forget that Winter Orb has great Synergy with Black Vise. I'll post my Propaganda Orb deck in another thread later if anyone is interested.
Sideboard changes are as follows:
-4x Stasis
-4x Chain of Vapor
-3x Forsaken City
-1x Tel-Jilad Stylus
-2x Howling Mine
-1 Chronatog
+4x Propaganda
+3x Winter Orb
+4x True Name Nemesis
+2x Echoing Truth
+1x Back to Basics
This sounds really good, thanks for the tech.
I'm really considering a lone Cursed Scroll main deck. Especially now that the Delver variants do not have draw spells such Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time to keep your hand full. You can search it out with Trinket Mage and also it would keep you from gassing out. Thoughts??
I'm not totally sure if I should cut TNN, but so far here's what I'm thinking:
-1 Vise -1 Nought +2 Trinket Mage
-1 TNN +1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Ponder +1 Sensei's Diving Top
-3 Islands +3 Blue Dual Land
It hasn't been discussed but I'm also thinking of:
-1 Back to Basics +1 Trickbind
Sideboard is now open to black, green, red and/or white spells plus a sideboard of 1 drop silver bullet artifacts.
1st) I will say that the original list is just absolutely nuts. It really throws down with decks that are $1000 plus.
2nd) I feel Ezuri's Brigade is necessary. Mostly because you really need at least 12 win cons to seal the deal quickly and they are just crazy big for a 4 drop.
3rd) Talismans are not necessary. In fact I feel that they are bad.
4th) For builds running a set of Freyalise's Winds consider creatures with vigilance. This however I feel deserves it's own thread as the deck would be built around it.
Anyhow, in the new list I have cut Sphere of Resistance for a pair of Trinisphere and Umezawa's Jittes for crowd control. With testing I've gone back to running Trinisphere which should be dropped after your mana engine has been set up. It has great synergy with Root Maze and even better synergy with Winter Orb. Jitte for obvious reasons as the deck was light on crowd control and in the event you don't get your Primal Order it furthers your aggro package, it just has so many tricks. One of which is it's synergy with Wickerbough Elder, which is why I cut Reclamation Sage.
Another change is that I've added a lone Vorapede. Vorapede has been overlooked in favor of Thragtusk in other builds because of it's GGG2 casting cost, but here without running Sol Lands we actually have access to the GGG. He doesn't gain you life but he is considerably better than Thragtusk. He's bigger, harder to kill and comes back as a 6/5 rather than a 3/3. Plus he has trample and vigilance. He's easy to cast off of GSZ and is a nice alternative as a Primal Order target in the event that you happened to draw Progenitus (pitching Progenitus to Masticore is handy for shuffling him back into your deck btw).
Anyhow, here is the new list. In testing, I'm really really liking the new changes.
2x Leatherback Baloth
2x Lodestone Golem
2x Masticore
1x Wickerbough Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Vorapede
1x Progenitus
4x Root Maze
4x Winter Orb
2x Trinisphere
Utility:
4x Natural Order
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Arbor Elf
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
1x Dryad Arbor
12x Forest
SYNERGIES AND STRATEGIES
Smallpox + Young Pyromancer, cast Smallpox, Pyromancer triggers, sac token.
Smallpox + Young Pyromancer token.
Smallpox + Lingering Souls in hand.
Smallpox + Lingering Souls token in play.
Smallpox + Bloodghast in hand.
Smallpox + Bloodghast in play.
Cabal Therapy if pitched by Smallpox.
Cabal Therapy + Young Pyromancer token.
Cabal Therapy + Bloodghast.
Cabal Therapy + Lingering Souls token.
Young Pyromancer + Lingering Souls from hand then from the yard.
Young Pyromancer + any of the 28 sorceries and instants.
Dark Confidant keeps your hand full of burn, disruption and removal spells to feed Pyromancer. Pyromancer never takes a hit from Smallpox as his ability triggers before Smallpox resolves thus allowing you to sac the token.
Here's the list:
4x Dark Confidant
4x Young Pyromancer
4x Bloodghast
Potatoes (28)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Smallpox
4x Sinkhole
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Badlands
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Scrubland
3x Marsh Flats
4x Wasteland
1x Swamp
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Extirpate
2x Pithing Needle
3x Wear // Tear
3x Zealous Persecution
Here's a link to the thread: Pyromancer Pox
I've really considered Garruck and even tested him but really I get plenty of mana. Often, I get so much mana that I don't know what to do with so I don't feel he's necessary, especially as a four drop when I can drop bigger bombs such as Primal Order.
What happens 90% of the time is that you stack a land with Wild Growths and drop one of the 8 Arbor Elves (thanks to GSZ) to crank out an obscene amount of mana. I've been doing a ton of testing and the land count is not even an issue unless I don't draw one at all. There are over 30 mana sources counting GSZ, ESG, Arbor Elves, Growths etc.. The only danger is either not drawing one at all or stacking Wild Growths on one land and putting all my eggs in one basket. Fortunately, Sinkhole and Ghost Quarter are not super popular in the current meta and Forests are Wasteland proof.
I actually have a new list if anyone wants to see it. It's not terribly different but I've cut the Sphere of Resistance package for other options and it is considerably more consistent. Also, bigger bombs.
BTW, I've managed to tune my Winter Orb build. I'd like to see the newer more updated Sol Lands builds so that I can test them and see which style is better. Not totally sold that the Winter Orb route is better but I've had really good results with my new build. It just wrecks most combo and D&T match ups have been decent. New changes include cutting Tanglewire, Trinisphere and Jitte for more efficient bombs and I'm really liking it.
Often, I'll get some explosive opening hands such as Forest, Arbor Elf, Root Maze, Natural Order, Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Growth. Turn one play a Forest, pitch ESG casting Wild Growth, tap Growthed Forest, cast Root Maze then Arbor Elf and pass the turn. Your opponent won't really get a turn but rather a tapped land drop due to Root Maze. Turn two, tap Growthed Forest, untap with Arbor Elf, tap it again Natural Order for Progenitus and follow up with Winter Orb or Sphere of Resistance. Game over. Here's my current list.
4x Arbor Elf
4x Leatherback Baloth
2x Lodestone Golem
2x Masticore
1x Progenitus
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Natural Order
Disruption: 12
4x Root Maze
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Winter Orb
Mana / Ramp:
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
1x Dryad Arbor
12x Forest
Good point on Dryad Arbor. Definitely cutting one for another Forest.
Yeah, Thrun is tempting. Maybe as a one of. I do actually really like the Leatherback Baloths. I notice that I can afford them at 3 mana and often I feel that if they were another creature such as a four drop I wouldn't have the mana for them. I should probably cut a Baloth to add in Thrun.
I think you are spot on with running 4x Trinishphere and cutting Sphere of Resistance entirely. I do like that I can pitch duplicates to Masticore. This is also true of extra Winter Orbs and Root Mazes. EDIT: I just have been testing the Trinispheres and they are not all that good with all of the one drops in the deck. If I drop a turn two 3Sphere it makes it difficult for me to cast future Wild Growths, etc... The deck was actually works quite nice with Sphere of Resistance.
Am I running the right creature set and am I running enough heavy beatsticks? What about running a werewolf token engine by cutting both Masticores for 2x Master of the Wild Hunt and cutting the 4 Leatherback Baloth for 4x Mayor of Avabruck? I haven't tested Mayor of Avabruck, my hope is that with Root Maze and Winter Orb my opponent shouldn't be casting too many spells thus helping him transform. Or is that just trying to squeeze too many combos into the deck? I do have Green Sun's Zenith to help set it up and I do really like Mayor's casting cost. He's 1 cheaper than Baloth, I just don't know how effective he is as I've never tested him in anything. The Baloth / Masticore set up is better right?
EDIT:
Also, is Sol Lands + Chalice better?
It's my inkling that mixing elements of both decks together might be the route to go. One thing I'm not liking about Trinity Green is the mana base. Ancient Tomb just straight up hurts you and City of Traitors is not all that dependable. Since we're running green I'm not seeing that it is necessary to go the Sol Land route. We are running green after all. There are two main reason to run Sol Lands, one is for Chalice and two is for if you are running colors such as white that don't have access to ramp.
I am proposing a new mana engine and with this engine you literally have to run a different lock mechanism. It requires a lot of one drops which you obviously cannot run if you are playing with Chalice. The engine is more dependable but the question is: Is it worth it at the loss of Chalice? Both have their pros and cons.
This lock mechanism is dope! First you get Root Maze which you simply cannot run with Chalice. Root Maze single handedly destroys most combo. It also wrecks decks running fetch lands which is about 85-90% of the competitive decks in the meta. Combine this with Winter Orb and you've slowed your opponent to a crawl. This being said like Chalice + Sol Lands you can still drop major turn one threats. Root Maze turn one is crazy, especially followed up with a turn two Sphere of Resistance / Winter Orb.
The mana engine I propose is Arbor Elf plus Wild Growth / Utopia Sprawl. With Green Sun's Zenith, getting this together is not a problem. This is more dependable than Sol Lands and it is NUTS combined with Winter Orb. Once again you don't get Chalice but is that okay? You really do get a nice lock with Root Maze and Winter Orb. Both of which are nuts on their own. Often, this engine you get a turn two Lodestone Golem. The ramp far exceeds Sol Lands and doesn't punish you half as much.
Here's my untuned build:
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Leatherback Baloth
2x Masticore
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sylvan Safekeeper
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Umezawa's Jitte
Lock Mechanisms:
4x Winter Orb
4x Root Maze
2x Trinisphere
2x Sphere of Resistance
2x Tangle Wire
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
2x Arbor Elf
3x Utopia Sprawl
4x Wild Growth
Land:
2x Dryad Arbor
12x Forest
Not totally sold on everything especially the beatz, but the lock mechanisms and mana engine are crazy good.
Masticore is crazy here btw. In particular against D&T and Elves. I cannot express how good he is here in this deck. In particular with the mana / ramp engine. A double Wild Growthed Forest with an Arbor Elf in play shuts down so many weenies. I'm considering adding a third one.
Leatherback Baloth I'm not totally sold on but he has a huge body for three mana. I really want to run Goyfs here but there are not enough cards that go to the graveyard to fuel him. There are a really limited number of sorceries (4), no instants and no fetch lands (because of Root Maze).
Sylvan Safekeeper is crazy here. With Winter Orb and Root Maze out you will notice that you have a ton of lands but they are all tapped with the exception of your Wild Growthed land that you continue to untap under Winter Orb. These lands are perfect for pitching to Safekeeper. I really want to run Titania, Protector of Argoth. Maybe I should add one for synergies.
Thoughts on going this route? I've had really good match ups with D&T.
Muse Comics in Montana is a really beautiful and nicely ran store although almost nobody shows up for Legacy. This is likely due to the size of Missoula Montana. Even though it's a college town there are only about 80,000 people.
Hey guys, the first card on my list is Mana Drain. Sure it's good. It's really good. In particular with Vintage Keeper control strategies. It combos nicely with cards such as Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius. But who even plays those in Legacy? I don't see it breaking the format anytime soon. It's barely ran in any Vintage deck lists.
Mind Twist. Even in Vintage you rarely see this card. Un-ban it today in Legacy and you might see it in some Pox lists but it's still no Hymn to Tourach. Like Black Vise and World Gorger Dragon, it won't be breaking the format anytime soon.
Yawgmoth's Bargain. This might be the most controversial card on my list. Awesome card, in particular in combo decks. I don't see it as a staple in any Vintage decks and I'd love to see it the Legacy format at least for a few months just to see what sort of decks pop up. I'm assuming there might be a spike in price with Academy Rector but to be honest I don't see it breaking the format.
First you are running a ton of mana. With Dark Ritual you are running 24 mana sources, you really only need 20 tops. I'd like to see you cut 6x Swamp and add 4x Mishra's Factory + 2x Urborb, Tomb of Yawgmoth. Then cut 4x Dark Ritual for more removal. Rituals are nice, particularly in combo decks but here I think you will not want the card disadvantage that it offers. Preferably replace it with mass removal that won't affect your Factories and Racks such as Toxic Deluge, Massacre, or Mutilate.
Nyxathid is decent on paper but I think that after you test him you will realize that he usually doesn't get as big as you want. For tempo purposes you might want to go with the old Turbo Discard option and consider Skittering Skirge instead.
Your discard numbers look about right. My old Turbo Discard build ran 21-22 discard spells counting Hypnotic Specter. The approach to this style of discard deck is different than that of Pox and 8Rack strategies that try to control your opponent, so for late game run a pair of Cursed Scroll for removal and additional damage.
EDIT:
Turbo Discard has been my archetype for 15+ years. Here's a budgetish list that I'd recommend. There are 20 one drops, 12 two drops and 6 three drops and 2 four drops.
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Wrench Mind
4x Duress
2x Raven's Crime
2x Funeral Charm
4x The Rack
2x Shrieking Affliction
4x Hypnotic Specter
2x Skittering Skirge
Removal: 8 (10 counting Scrolls)
4x Disfigure
2x Victim of Night
2x Mutilate
2x Phyrexian Arena
2x Cursed Scroll
Land: 20
4x Mishra's Factory
2x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
14x Swamp
GENERAL MILLS
Okay kiddos. I've got another competitive budget legacy brew for you to stomp the $H!T out of your annoying friends without having to drop $800 plus for a set of Wastelands and Lilianas. This deck is called General Mills for the obvious reason that you mill your opponent out of the game. This ain't no ordinary average crap mill deck running crap scrub cards such as Tome Scour and Mind Sculpt. General Mills offers a gnarly prison style lock, and a butt load of counters, removal and draw spells. If you like playing control and you like winning games you are going to really enjoy this deck.
4x Sphinx's Tutelage
Draw: 12
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Brainstorm
3x Rhystic Study
1x Monastery Siege
Lock Down: 8
4x Winter Orb
2x Propaganda
2x Pendrell Mists
4x Daze
4x Spell Pierce
3x Counterspell
1x Muddle the Mixture
Removal: 4
3x Unsummon
1x Echoing Truth
Ramp: 4
4x Talisman of Dominance
Land: 16
16x Island
3x Echoing Truth
2x Pithing Needle
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Cursed Totem
3x Chill
LOCKDOWN AND WIN
- Winter Orb / Propaganda / Sphinx's Tutelage Your main strategy here is to stall your opponent and drop a Winter Orb locking up their mana. You will then follow up with a well placed Propaganda putting them in a seriously bad situation. They can choose to spend their precious locked up mana either to pay Propaganda costs and attack or they can attempt to cast a spell which you will likely counter. Note, Propaganda is cumulative in that stacking them will only further frustrate your opponent. Finally you will drop 1-3 Sphinx's Tutelage and with twelve strong main deck draw spells you will deck them in a few short turns. This happens considerably faster than what appears on paper, it is extremely effective. Seriously though, you will run into Emrakul and Abrupt Decay in Legacy. If you want to be competitive tournament wise, replace Sphinx with 4x True Name Nemesis when you get the cash and cut 2x Winter Orb for 2x Back to Basics.
COUNTER MAGIC:DRAW
RAMP
- Talisman of Dominance Not the fastest ramp spell in the game but also not the slowest as it doesn't come into play tapped such as Sky Diamond. Talisman of Dominance is here not only to ramp up your mana quickly but to ease the strain of Winter Orb on your mana supply. Your non-budget alternative is Chrome Mox, but honestly I really like the Talisman as you don't sacrifice card advantage for speed.
REMOVAL / BOUNCESIDEBOARD
2x Back to Basics
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Cursed Totem
3x Chill
HONORABLE MENTION
If you really wanted to pimp out this deck you would likely run Force of Will over Counterspell and Chrome Mox over Talisman of Dominance however the deck is incredibly strong without them. Again, I highly recommend getting a set of Polluted Delta or some other fetch land to replace four of your Islands to maximize your Brainstorm potential. The following is a list of cards I did initially try but opted to cut after testing.
So there you have it. I'll be adding to this thread over time. Feel free to add suggestions and have fun kicking the snot out of your buddies. Credits to this deck go to none other than myself and my good buddy Travis Hoiland the Magic guru.
Lazer Stasis: 60 cards
4x Stasis
2x Frozen Aether
Draw: 10
4x Ancestral Vision
2x Howling Mine
4x Preordain
Counters: 12
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Muddle the Mixture
4x Chain of Vapor
1x Tel-Jilad Stylus
Kill: 2
1x Black Vise
1x Chronatog
Mana: 25
4x Lotus Petal
3x Forsaken City
18x Island
4x Propaganda
2x Back to Basics
4x True Name Nemesis
3x Winter Orb
2x Echoing Truth
For the most part most of cards in the deck are self explainable. Here are some explanations on the others:
Preordain. I chose Preordain over Brainstorm + Fetchland for the reason that running fetchies thins your deck of much needed Islands to keep Stasis alive. It also actually digs deeper into the deck to help get your Stasis.
Chronatog is here as the alternative kill to Black Vise in the event you get hit with Extirpate, Cranial Extraction, Meddling Mage etc.. It also can be tutored for with Muddle the Mixture.
Tel-Jilad Stylus is really good for removing Stasis at the end of your opponent's turn so that you can untap and hopefully play another Stasis the following turn. It is better than Despotic Scepter in that it puts your Stasis at the bottom of your deck so that it can be recast if necessary later in the game. Claws of Gix is actually the worst of the three as you are forced to pay 1 at the end of your opponent's turn. Stylus and Scepter are better as you cast them "before" Stasis hits the table and use them later without having to use your last mana source to destroy Stasis.
Lotus Petal Any builds not running Lotus Petal need to reconsider. It allows you to drop Stasis a turn earlier and also it speeds you up once the Stasis soft lock is secure, especially when drawing off of Howling Mine and Ancestral Vision.
Muddle the Mixture is a no brainer in mono blue builds considering you don't have access to other tutors such as Lim Dul's Vault and Enlightened Tutor. IMO, you can't play mono blue Stasis without it. Plus it's a counter spell. What's not to like?
Finally the transformational sideboard. This is the part of the deck that I am most proud. Cutting Stasis pieces for Winter Orb + Propaganda combo is really nice when you are going up against speedy aggro decks which happen to be Stasis' worst match up. It works by soft locking up your opponents creatures and lands as you counter your opponent's most irritating spells while beating down with an unblockable untargetable TNN. Echoing Truth is great for returning annoying permanents to your opponent's hand causing them to tie up more mana under Winter Orb in order to recast it. This transformational sideboard is so good against fast aggro decks that I actually sometimes run it as a stand alone deck with a few changes of course. It also throws off your opponent whom will be sideboarding against Stasis game two. And don't forget that Winter Orb has great Synergy with Black Vise. I'll post my Propaganda Orb deck in another thread later if anyone is interested.
Sideboard changes are as follows:
-4x Stasis
-4x Chain of Vapor
-3x Forsaken City
-1x Tel-Jilad Stylus
-2x Howling Mine
-1 Chronatog
+4x Propaganda
+3x Winter Orb
+4x True Name Nemesis
+2x Echoing Truth
+1x Back to Basics
I'm really considering a lone Cursed Scroll main deck. Especially now that the Delver variants do not have draw spells such Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time to keep your hand full. You can search it out with Trinket Mage and also it would keep you from gassing out. Thoughts??
I'm not totally sure if I should cut TNN, but so far here's what I'm thinking:
-1 Vise -1 Nought +2 Trinket Mage
-1 TNN +1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Ponder +1 Sensei's Diving Top
-3 Islands +3 Blue Dual Land
It hasn't been discussed but I'm also thinking of:
-1 Back to Basics +1 Trickbind
Sideboard is now open to black, green, red and/or white spells plus a sideboard of 1 drop silver bullet artifacts.
2nd) I feel Ezuri's Brigade is necessary. Mostly because you really need at least 12 win cons to seal the deal quickly and they are just crazy big for a 4 drop.
3rd) Talismans are not necessary. In fact I feel that they are bad.
4th) For builds running a set of Freyalise's Winds consider creatures with vigilance. This however I feel deserves it's own thread as the deck would be built around it.
5th) The Freyalise's Winds slot is a flex slot. Perhaps main deck Hail Storm, Cursed Scroll or even a 4th Winter Orb here.
6th) Living Wish is not too bad of an idea. Hit me up with test results.