Love this deck list, I am play testing mine soon.
Have you considered Vessel of Endless Rest. I know it is a noncreature artifact. But it also doubles as a mana ramp beyond its awesome ten effect. Plus it can be cheated out with goblin welder.
Also, although crypt ghast is a stupid good card, I don't think it can be played in this deck due to the color identity rule. It is technically a white black card right?
Love this post super comprehensive.
Glad you enjoy the list! As for your suggestion, I actually used to have Vessel of Endless Rest in my initial list, but I really wanted to minimize the amount of non-creature artifacts, and this was one of the first to be cut for two reasons;
1. It's expensive and I'd rather be casting Grenzo and/or flipping with that mana.
2. While it's effect is good, it's a one time deal and we have enough artifacts in the list that do the same thing an infinite number of times.
So the card is outclassed as a mana rock and as a recursion effect, which is why I chose to cut it.
As for Crypt Ghast, it actually is allowed in any black deck. That's because the Extort mechanic only shows the W/B symbol in the reminder text which is different from rules text. You can tell the difference by the fact that the explanation is in parentheses, so the W/B symbol has no affect on the color identity. So you can also run Blind Obedience in any white deck
We hit Primer status everyone!!! This has been something I've wanted to achieve ever since I first visited this site, and I'm so excited to finally have fulfilled this mini-dream of mine.
As for updates, I will be posting a review of the Dominaria set soon, so stay tuned!
But there is a way to get them back, all the non-artifact Grenzo nonflips are Black and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is very good at getting those things back and even looping the Living Death if the conditions are correct.
I've considered Xiahou and have come to the conclusion that he will be relegated to the "Cards Not Included List". Here are my primary reasons for passing over him:
1. He's expensive, and I want to keep the deck cheap for those who are interested in trying Grenzo out.
2. I enjoy my creature heavy build and would prefer the balance I have over running other noncreature spells.
3. Even if I did run him for my creature build, he puts those cards in hand which is something I rarely want.
But there is a way to get them back, all the non-artifact Grenzo nonflips are Black and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed is very good at getting those things back and even looping the Living Death if the conditions are correct.
Ah! I apologize for missing that interaction. Your noncreature inclusions make a whole lot more sense with that loop available; and Fleshwrither can even tutor for Xiahou which is great. I'll probably have to add this to my cards under consideration as well
I had a stranger Grenzo deck and it was working however I wanted to change it up saw this and the deck has started drifting in that direction, I really like the chaos off it and while I have couple more spells and missing a couple bits here and there it is a grand time.
Thank you so much for sharing! I always enjoy looking at others' lists and seeing the different directions taken. You're definitely running more non-creature cards than I'd prefer, but I can see the reasons for running things like Living Death. However, without a way to recur those from your graveyard, I think you'll find they make extremely disappointing flips.
Also I love your inclusion of Marionette Master. I'm considering adding her myself as she creates a great board wipe deterrent when you have 4+ artifact creatures. And with Pitiless Plunderer and a sac outlet, she's almost a guaranteed win. I'll be adding her to my considered list and will start playtesting with her.
So two weeks after appearing in Game Knights, our master and commander, Grenzo, Dungeon Warden has received a full deck tech from the Command Zone. Here are my analysis of the additional cards in this deck that weren't shown in the Game Knights episode:
* Clone Shell - I have gone back and forth on this card in my own list. It can help set up the bottom of our deck relatively well, however, in practice I've found it pretty underwhelming. Forcing us to bottom cards (especially when those cards are lands) feels terrible, and is a reason why I'm considering removing the hideaway lands from the list. I will try this one again, but in my experience, there are better creatures with more impactful ETB's than this one.
- Ignition Team - Our deck doesn't really care about massive beaters, and it sure doesn't want to use our precious mana to animate lands. Hard pass on this one.
- Imperial Recruiter - With the masters 25 reprints, this card is an excellent additional tutor to run in your deck. If you have this one, there's no reason to not run it, unless you enjoy a bit of inconsistency which is why I won't be adding an additional tutor.
- Thran Turbine - Noncreature artifact that can create free flips over the course of the game. I'll consider this one and probably test it out, but I have a feeling it's not going to contribute enough to make the list.
- Twilight Prophet - This deck can easily hit City's Blessing by turn 5-6, but drawing cards is vastly inferior to flipping them. I want to reduce my chances of drawing a Herald of Leshrac, not increase them.
Those should be all of the additional cards from this episode that haven't already been covered in previous posts. Thanks everyone!
So it looks like Grenzo may gain some popularity with the recent Game Knights episode where Josh Lee Kwai pilots his own version of the commander. Here is the link to that video:
What I found interesting is that Josh does play by the 3 power rule when casting Grenzo, but he also runs other 4+ power creatures thus lowering the consistency of a good flip. So I wrote down every single card that Josh played in the match that didn't align with our current list and decided to give my opinion on each of those differences.
Etali, Primal Storm - To be honest, I have no idea why this card is in his list at all. It has no significant interactions with the goal of his deck. I understand it's a fun card, I just feel it's completely out of place.
Fire Diamond - Once again, we want creatures to minimize the chance of a bad flip. So if we're running a non-creature card, it better be extremely important...and I don't see an extra mana rock that ETB's tapped fulfilling that requirement.
Jaya Ballard - As stated in the guide as the reason we don't run things like Feldon of the Third Path, I prefer to not run creatures with mana costed abilities as they directly cut into the amount of activations with Grenzo. My only exceptions are Fleshwrither and Moggcatcher since those are direct tutors for wincons.
Hell's Caretaker - One of the few cards I would consider adding to this list. Saccing is never an issue and is more often a benefit. And having that sac translate to direct creature recursion is pretty spicy. So I'm adding this to the consideration list as it will help with more consistency from grabbing our wincons out of the GY.
Mindmoil - I REALLY don't want to cast a do nothing enchantment for 5 mana that I could be spending on flips. And while it's following benefit can be amazing, it requires us to continue casting from our hand!!! That goes against the primary goals of this deck, and really just removes some of the fun of never knowing what's on the bottom. Also, unlike all of our other nonland, noncreature card; this can never be recurred from the graveyard. I do not recommend.
Nekrataal - Already in my considered list as it's more removal on a flippable creature. I'd personally rather run Shriekmaw as it's a better card when drawn, but Nekrataal has the advantage of always being flippable even with Grenzo at 2 power.
Olivia Voldaren - Same as Jaya, I don't like mana abilities. It's cool to have the ability to steal creatures, but we already have enough powerhouses in our deck, and Olivia can't really outpace any of them.
Terminate - Nonland, noncreature card that's not recurrable. Just run Nekrataal instead.
Tree of Perdition - Hilarious addition to the deck and one that I never really thought of before. I would say this card is more dependent on your playgroup. This deck typically wins with infinite combos anyways, but in the off chance that you're going against an Oloro, Ageless Ascetic deck and you have to ping him down with Goblin Sharpshooter, this could be a clutch pull. Thus, I can only recommend this card on a meta-dependent basis.
Vampiric Tutor - Nonland. Noncreature. Nonrecurrable. Hopefully, I shouldn't have to stress this too often anymore. Our current tutors do just fine in grabbing what we need at the time, and an extra benefit is that our tutors immediately put creatures on the battlefield.
Vandalblast - This deck could use some more easy artifact destruction, but it's not entirely necessary. If destroying artifacts is your thing, grab Viashino Heretic instead or some other creature.
Vedalken Orrery - The only benefit this adds to the deck is being able to cast Grenzo at instant speed. Everything else we do is already accomplished at instant speed through Grenzo activations. However, I could see an argument for this as it allows Grenzo to be immediately recast after a boardwipe to continue his shenanigans.
And that's all of them! If I missed any, let me know and I'll add them to the above analysis. Hope this video brings in more gamblers and spreads the joy of chaos!
first off, this deck looks so incredibly sweet, and really well done primer as well! great work.
second off, a recommendation that i was surprised to see excluded is Path of Ancestry; it's powerful in tribal decks anyways, but especially when scrying is so powerful in the deck i feel like it's very worthy of the slot.
i might put this deck together, looks like a ton of fun!
Thank you so much! It was definitely a passion project for me, so I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed it. As for Path of Ancestry, I can't believe that I missed playtesting with this land. My initial thoughts on this card are as follows:
1. A majority of the deck lacks a goblin tribal tag, but as you state, the scry mechanic is just too good to pass up. There's really no reason to not run this as it's flexible mana with an occasional crazy upside.
2. It's another tapped land. But this can easily be reconciled by removing a different tap land from the list. I've been thinking of removing Howltooth Hollow anyways as it's definitely underperformed for me.
Props on the deck; it looks amazingly fun to play. Grenzo saving himself via getting sac'd, tucked, and flipped is tech I didn't think about before reading this thread although it would remove any counters on him at the time.
As a thought experiment based on that:
What would you do if you had the limitation of only 2 power or less rather than 3?
This would cut out quite a few important cards:
Could it still be viable to play without these? You would always have the consistency of being able to flip all of your creatures no matter how many counters Grenzo had on him, but you cut out some combo wins, a Reito Lantern on a body, mass sacrifice, Deathbringer's powerful removal, tutoring, and reanimation. It is a rather large limitation.
I find this an excellent thought experiment, and will probably have to give some more thought to it before I can give a detailed reply of how I'd change the deck with this limitation. But I have encountered this issue before in game a couple of times, and here's what I've found:
Even with Grenzo being stuck at 2, the majority of his flips are amazing; and they can eventually lead to a point where Grenzo either gains the additional power from a prior flip (Mad Auntie) or I gain such an advantage in mana that I can sac and cast him again if necessary. Also, the graveyard is almost never a bad place for your key combo pieces to be, because they're an easy digger loop or Dread Return away.
Have you considered cards like Teferi's Puzzle Box and Mindmoil? Teferi's Puzzle Box disrupts opponents while allowing you to bottomdeck and thus know the order of certain cards for Grenzo. Mindmoil basically does the same but after casting a spell. These cards let you dig further into the deck while also setting up some cards for Grenzo at the bottom of your library.
As for Mindmoil, I really rarely cast cards from hand as I want the majority of my mana to be spent on flipping the bottom card of the deck. So I don't think this card would be a good fit.
Besides the deck, what I love most about this post is the photoshop skills! Excellent! That and I enjoyed going to the casino.
How has the deck played out for you? Have you tested it out much?
Thank you very much!
I actually have played the deck a lot and have done a lot of revisioning along the way. And through all these games, I've found a surprising amount of consistency in coming up with a win. It's so fun to watch the whole table get tuned in as you flip the bottom card of your deck to see if you got a treasure or a dud.
And I've personally been surprised by its resiliency. I've won games after suffering as much as 3 board wipes, so Grenzo has the potential to beat through even the most aggressive hate
It has quickly evolved into my favorite deck and it's almost always my go to in any playgroup.
Glad you enjoy the list! As for your suggestion, I actually used to have Vessel of Endless Rest in my initial list, but I really wanted to minimize the amount of non-creature artifacts, and this was one of the first to be cut for two reasons;
1. It's expensive and I'd rather be casting Grenzo and/or flipping with that mana.
2. While it's effect is good, it's a one time deal and we have enough artifacts in the list that do the same thing an infinite number of times.
So the card is outclassed as a mana rock and as a recursion effect, which is why I chose to cut it.
As for Crypt Ghast, it actually is allowed in any black deck. That's because the Extort mechanic only shows the W/B symbol in the reminder text which is different from rules text. You can tell the difference by the fact that the explanation is in parentheses, so the W/B symbol has no affect on the color identity. So you can also run Blind Obedience in any white deck
As for updates, I will be posting a review of the Dominaria set soon, so stay tuned!
I've considered Xiahou and have come to the conclusion that he will be relegated to the "Cards Not Included List". Here are my primary reasons for passing over him:
1. He's expensive, and I want to keep the deck cheap for those who are interested in trying Grenzo out.
2. I enjoy my creature heavy build and would prefer the balance I have over running other noncreature spells.
3. Even if I did run him for my creature build, he puts those cards in hand which is something I rarely want.
Ah! I apologize for missing that interaction. Your noncreature inclusions make a whole lot more sense with that loop available; and Fleshwrither can even tutor for Xiahou which is great. I'll probably have to add this to my cards under consideration as well
Thank you so much for sharing! I always enjoy looking at others' lists and seeing the different directions taken. You're definitely running more non-creature cards than I'd prefer, but I can see the reasons for running things like Living Death. However, without a way to recur those from your graveyard, I think you'll find they make extremely disappointing flips.
Also I love your inclusion of Marionette Master. I'm considering adding her myself as she creates a great board wipe deterrent when you have 4+ artifact creatures. And with Pitiless Plunderer and a sac outlet, she's almost a guaranteed win. I'll be adding her to my considered list and will start playtesting with her.
* Clone Shell - I have gone back and forth on this card in my own list. It can help set up the bottom of our deck relatively well, however, in practice I've found it pretty underwhelming. Forcing us to bottom cards (especially when those cards are lands) feels terrible, and is a reason why I'm considering removing the hideaway lands from the list. I will try this one again, but in my experience, there are better creatures with more impactful ETB's than this one.
- Ignition Team - Our deck doesn't really care about massive beaters, and it sure doesn't want to use our precious mana to animate lands. Hard pass on this one.
- Imperial Recruiter - With the masters 25 reprints, this card is an excellent additional tutor to run in your deck. If you have this one, there's no reason to not run it, unless you enjoy a bit of inconsistency which is why I won't be adding an additional tutor.
- Thran Turbine - Noncreature artifact that can create free flips over the course of the game. I'll consider this one and probably test it out, but I have a feeling it's not going to contribute enough to make the list.
- Twilight Prophet - This deck can easily hit City's Blessing by turn 5-6, but drawing cards is vastly inferior to flipping them. I want to reduce my chances of drawing a Herald of Leshrac, not increase them.
Those should be all of the additional cards from this episode that haven't already been covered in previous posts. Thanks everyone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnj_QMaszmU
What I found interesting is that Josh does play by the 3 power rule when casting Grenzo, but he also runs other 4+ power creatures thus lowering the consistency of a good flip. So I wrote down every single card that Josh played in the match that didn't align with our current list and decided to give my opinion on each of those differences.
And that's all of them! If I missed any, let me know and I'll add them to the above analysis. Hope this video brings in more gamblers and spreads the joy of chaos!
Thank you so much! It was definitely a passion project for me, so I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed it. As for Path of Ancestry, I can't believe that I missed playtesting with this land. My initial thoughts on this card are as follows:
1. A majority of the deck lacks a goblin tribal tag, but as you state, the scry mechanic is just too good to pass up. There's really no reason to not run this as it's flexible mana with an occasional crazy upside.
2. It's another tapped land. But this can easily be reconciled by removing a different tap land from the list. I've been thinking of removing Howltooth Hollow anyways as it's definitely underperformed for me.
So thank you for the suggestion!
I find this an excellent thought experiment, and will probably have to give some more thought to it before I can give a detailed reply of how I'd change the deck with this limitation. But I have encountered this issue before in game a couple of times, and here's what I've found:
Even with Grenzo being stuck at 2, the majority of his flips are amazing; and they can eventually lead to a point where Grenzo either gains the additional power from a prior flip (Mad Auntie) or I gain such an advantage in mana that I can sac and cast him again if necessary. Also, the graveyard is almost never a bad place for your key combo pieces to be, because they're an easy digger loop or Dread Return away.
I hope this deck inspires many more gamblers to join the casino!
I have not, but I will definitely try out Teferi's Puzzle Box.
As for Mindmoil, I really rarely cast cards from hand as I want the majority of my mana to be spent on flipping the bottom card of the deck. So I don't think this card would be a good fit.
Thank you very much!
I actually have played the deck a lot and have done a lot of revisioning along the way. And through all these games, I've found a surprising amount of consistency in coming up with a win. It's so fun to watch the whole table get tuned in as you flip the bottom card of your deck to see if you got a treasure or a dud.
And I've personally been surprised by its resiliency. I've won games after suffering as much as 3 board wipes, so Grenzo has the potential to beat through even the most aggressive hate
It has quickly evolved into my favorite deck and it's almost always my go to in any playgroup.
I've followed the formatting guide...
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/784785-grenzos-jail-of-malevolence