Wow, I was already in love with Lazav, but this list got me even more excited. Plus, the discussed Crackdown Construct combos just blew my mind; I love it.
Got to try out the GRN cards we added in a bit tonight with Goblin Cratermaker and Plaguecrafter!
managed to flip a clutch cratermaker in response to Platinum Emperion getting equipped with boots for a scoop from that player (tbf he was gonna die in a moment)
Stylusing my plaguecrafter every round was able to net me a nice win vs a voltron enchantress deck, and a superfriends that were in full swing.
Great additions so far for sure! I still am tweaking your list to work with this weird mostly random meta from paid pods, but its been so smooth and gets lots of compliments lol
Love to hear the stories!! I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing a good Plaguecrafter lock yet, but it sounds glorious
1. No immediate impact. This deck is about abusing our own cards on our time, but Noosegraf Mob is a do nothing 5/5 that requires OPPONENT interaction to actually do something. Which leads me to the next problem...
2. Requires opponent action. Our opponents have to cast spells to get additional creatures, so it's intrinsically worse than Siege-gang Commander or Marionette Master who immediately provide the creatures we want to start saccing. And unlike Noosegraf, they also have additional functionalities with the creatures they summon.
So with those two issues in mind, I personally wouldn't run this card.
Wow, this deck cleans up pods at my FNM! Some of the games were a bit grindy to get the win, but knowing I will be able to dig to so many ways to win, and am able to dodge lots of removal along the way... So damn good.
Part of what drew me to this list was being a control player at heart, and this deck definetly scratches that itch really well.
Thanks again!
So glad to hear you're having fun with it!!! I'm always encouraged to know others have found the joy of Grenzo.
It's that time again! Time to review a set! I apologize for this being late; my college classes have been draining my time the past few months. But here is my review of the cards in Guilds of Ravnica. As in the past, I will only review the cards I believe are worth discussing. If you think of another card in the set that you'd like my thoughts on, please feel free to let me know.
Legion Warboss - Not near enough impact for us, and it encourages attacking which our deck doesn't really care to do. If you're running a swingy goblin version of Grenzo though, I would include this for sure.
Blood Operative - There are way better options for graveyard removal if you need it. Not worth running.
Moodmark Painter - While this definitely could work in a more swingy version of Grenzo, it's not going to be effective in this more combo-oriented list. However, if you turn sideways a lot, this is a fun option (cause our graveyard is usually pretty full).
Midnight Reaper - Grenzo's ability is effective card draw and we'd rather have our creatures come into play than draw them and then have to hard cast them.
Goblin Cratermaker - Amazing potential as additional artifact destruction, targeted removal, or potential Eldrazi removal. I love this card's versatility and will definitely be looking for an available slot in my list.
Plaguecrafter - The gem of the set. A direct upgrade to Fleshbag Marauder. It makes players sac creatures. It makes superfriends sac planeswalkers. And if that player already has no creatures/planeswalkers, it destroys their hand. There's no downside for us and it destroys our opponents further than Fleshbag ever could. Instant replacement in the deck.
Burglar Rat - Abusable discard trigger, but I feel there are better options if this is what you need.
There's my review! Happy dungeon-delving everyone, and I'll be updating the primer soon to reflect several changes in my own deck list.
I recall some talk about Whisper, but I've got to sing her praises. She's infinitely better than Junktroller.
Since she's independent of Grenzo, she can help hold up mana in exchange for spent etb creatures, and her sacrifice cost means she is part of another infinite combo win-con.
If the Army-in-a-Can creature is Marionette Master, you win alone through her damage. Siege Gang provides infinite 1/1 goblins. I also have Mogg War Marshal in my own build, which means he wins the game depending on who your random dork is (still oppressive if it doesn't win). Kiki/Phyrexian Delver/Puppeteer Clique can pull bad impressions of the bodies depending on what's in who's graves.
I've been having great results since switching Junktroller to Whisper as well!
Alright, you guys have convinced me to make the switch. I do agree that Junktroller hasn't been doing enough for me in my recent matches, so I'll switch him out in the next update
When I have the time, I'm going to put out my review of the set, but the big takeaway is Plaguecrafter is our money card for the set. It's a direct upgrade on Fleshbag Marauder. He hits planeswalkers and makes opponents start discarding cards once we've abused it enough. Definitely an immediate auto-include
Have you looked at Emrakul's Hatcher? It's not quite free to play from hand like the priests are, but it gives the Mana to you in the form of creatures that you can sacrifice for something better (like the altar), and has a slightly tougher body if you need it.
I like this a lot and may have to find a spot for it. It's essentially another priest that can also serve as an alternative source of infinite with Ashnod's Altar.
This plus I've been running Archetype of Finality which turns both of the above into one-sided wraths in addition to making our smallest 1 power tokens into potent threats on offense (with opponents less likely to block) and defense (as no one wants to trade with little deathtouchers).
I also like this card with the synergy it provides to the creatures you mentioned in addition to Furystoke Giant. The harest part will be trying to find a space for another strong creature...
I just saw Forge of Heroes in my c18 deck and realized its really great for grenzo to keep him on 3
I considered it, but it's definitely not an auto-include in my opinion. You'll be paying the mana anyways, so tapping it for the token is essentially the same thing. The benefit is really when Grenzo temporarily leaves play, but I want to be cautious with adding too many non-colored lands. I'll play test it and see if it helps enough to warrant an inclusion.
I typically would rather use the two mana to flip and see what I can get (I still enjoy the luck aspect of the deck), but I do think this can be a potential inclusion with the scry AND potential ramp it offers. I'll also play test this out.
Speaking of lands, Drownyard Temple and Dakmor Salvage have been two incredible recent additions to the deck for me. Their respective abilities reduce the feelbad of flipping them with Grenzo. Drownyard Temple turns into some slow ramp if you need it, and Dakmor Salvage fills your graveyard with more stuff if you want to make sure to draw a land. I have also rencently replaced my Goblin Matron with an Imperial Recruiter and my Manakin with a Soldevi Adnate for some very, very good results!
Why do there have to be so many good colorless lands!!!! We need colored mana too, friends! Lol, but in all seriousness I do like the idea of having non-feelbad lands to flip. So I'll definitely replace a Swamp with Dakmore Salvage and see if I can find a spot to fit in Drownyard Temple as well. Also, I still have to find a spot for Soldevi Adnate as well >>
Also we may have found a new addition in the newly revealed Goblin Cratermaker!!! Pay 1 colorless to destroy target Eldrazi, Karn, or artifact seems pretty good...
So I've been taking this to my LGS that does fnm commander pods of 4. It has been really successful and superfun, albeit a bit crunchy some turns figuring out the best course of action, at least till I get more used to piloting it.
My question now is, whats the easiest way to explain the grenzo vs. graveyard interaction (like leyline of the void ect) to new folks, as I have no idea who im playing any given game and dont actually know many people there lol. I tried to explain that even with leyline out, the creature, if applicable, will still go into play from ANY public zone, but i got so much pushback on multiple nights from different people.
Idk lol i guess i was just looking for a suggest of how to word it to new folks, because I love this deck rn, and im not gonna stop playing it now that I got it built (at least not for a bit)
Hey PenThief,
I've had pushback too when explaining this specific rule before. The interaction works in your favor due to the fact that Grenzo does not specify zone of retrieval. He says put the creature into the graveyard, and then put it into play (unspecified from where) if it's power is equal to or less than Grenzo's.
The specific rule that helps Grenzo is 400.7h. If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
This is the reason that Oblivion Ring doesn't bring back your commander from the command zone when destroyed. Because it specifies return the EXILED card to play.
And it's the same reason Banishing Light WILL return your commander to play even if you choose to put it into the command zone. Banishing Light doesn't specify the card has to remain in exile, and thus if the card is in a public zone, it's retrievable. So I'd encourage people to look up the rulings if they're unsure or share this rule with them. If not, show them some of the topics others have already made. There's plenty of them. Hope this helps!
Extra note added: This only works with replacement effects. If your opponent exiles your commander with Banishing Light and you choose to send to the command zone, and then you play your commander and he gets destroyed and resent to the command zone, Banishing Light will no longer return your commander. This is because your commander has actively switched zones (CZ to play, and then back to CZ) and thus is no longer retrievable by Banishing Light.
This is an excellent primer and it's been a real pleasure to read it all. I'm also very flattered that your inspiration comes from my own list, it's always nice to see new ideas for the same commander and I think that's what makes this format so exciting.
Here are some thoughts and questions I have regarding your list:
How has Junktroller been working out for you? For me it's always been a disappointing-non-haste-one-use-per-turn-only Epitaph Golem and I was never really happy to flip him. I'd much rather play Whisper, Blood Liturgist as a (still non-haste) recursion engine because it doesn't require a Grenzo activation to bring the creature back. It also has built in sacrifice, which isn't even a downside in this deck most of the time.
About Tel-Jilad Stylus and Reito Lantern: Are the added ETB effects really worth the risk and mana investement of flipping them in the graveyard? I used them in early versions of my build but was always disappointed of playing them, whether it was from my hand or through recursion because even then I felt that I could have used my recursion effects on better artifacts such as Meteor Golem or Duplicant.
Have you ever been able to make an explosive play with Furystoke Giant? I cut it out of my list because I wanted to test some other cards but I never actually got to flip him and now I'm thinking about brigning him back. What are your thoughts on the card?
Goblin Sharpshooter and Deathbringer Thoctar: I've always hesitated about running both because they basically have the same effect. In the end, I chose the Sharoshooter because of the reduced cost and because it was a Goblin. Why did you choose to include both in your list?
Again, thank you for the amazing primer. It was a very interesting read!
It is a massive honor to know that I have provided inspiration to the user that first inspired me to build this list. Thanks for helping me find my love for my favorite commander ever
Here are my responses to your questions/thoughts:
- Junktroller - Honestly, this is probably the next card on the chopping block. The fact that it's a fairly fragile creature, can only flip once, and needs help to have haste has left a lot to be desired. I primarily added it for it's ability to create another source of infinite with Thornbite Staff and Ashnod's Altar, but I think I have yet to ever run into this scenario. So I agree with your assessment that this might need to go.
- Tel-Jilad Stylus - I really love this card a lot, and have found that the instant recursion of our powerful ETB's can be extremely powerful. This alone has saved several game losses where I could instantly reflip Gray Merchant of Asphodel to gain 20+ life, netted me tons of mana by chump blocking with Solemn Simulacrum and stylusing it before combat damage is dealt, and also is an important way to save Grenzo from single target removal using only the Stylus and himself.
And being able to re-use a creature already on the field (like Meteor Golem) is something that is vital when a sac outlet/recursion outlet isn't available.
- Reito Lantern - This is in as a more sturdy form of recursion. And though it might be a bit of investment to recur it if it's accidentally flipped, being able to instantly grab your best ETB's for 5 mana has proven extremely powerful. Obviously, Epitaph Golem is better, but he's much more fragile as a creature which is why I prefer to have this alternate (harder to kill) version.
Also, it still creates the infinite loop with Ashnod's Altar and Siege-gang Commander/Marionette Master.
- Furystoke Giant - Another card that I wasn't sure about initially, but has pulled massive weight for me. This deck naturally builds up a hefty board state with the amount of creatures, and giving 10+ creatures on the field the ability to tap for 2 damage can often mean a selective board wipe or an instant kill to a player. And since everything is typically done on the end of the opponent's turn, you can sac the Giant to do it all over again on your next untap step. I would highly recommend slotting him back in as he's highly effective, even with a small board state.
And the fact that he can be sacced twice to Ashnod's Altar is just an added bonus.
- Deathbringer Thoctar/Goblin Sharpshooter - With the amount of saccing I do with this list, these both have been absolutely insane, and I can't tell you how many times these two cards have won me the game. Deathbringer Thoctar especially has been one of my favorite powerhouses and my playgroup's most feared drops. Any creature that dies gives you a stored free ping to anything!!!! "Oh you played Avenger of Zendikar? Remove a counter, kill a plant, gain a counter, remove a counter, kill a plant, etc."
Token decks are crippled, and swinging in at a player with a 30/30+ Thoctar, killing that player, and then removing 27 counters to kill another player has happened more times than I can count.
Hope that answers your questions as to why I chose these cards and keep sticking with them! But I'll probably have to follow your lead on the switch out from Junktroller to Whisper, Blood Liturgist
Solid list man! I've been looking for a new Rakdos general and had just decided on Grenzo before seeing this list. I had my doubts about the decklist but coming across this really well made primer has put those doubts to rest.
I might be crazy but I'm going to try an x=4 varient so I can use a few goodies an x=3 list cannot:
Perhaps 6 cards isn't enough to justify x=2 but I want to try it anyway.
That sounds like a fun experiment! I don't think you're crazy at all for trying something like that. My only warning though is that you might find Grenzo gets way more expensive much more quickly if your opponents decide to hate on you.
Thanks for the warm welcome! Great reviews, I appreciate you taking the time to do that for the new cards coming out. I was feeling similarly about c18 so far, though maybe because I've had this deck on my mind exclusively since finding this Primer. I'm really excited to play this at fnm this week!
Always happy to help! Let me know how the games go
Hi I love the deck! I made an account to ask what you think about Night Incarnate from the upcoming c18 set. Any other thoughts on the new c18 cards coming out?
Thanks again for the great deck, I'm building it in paper now!
Hi PenThief! Welcome to the Dungeoneers!
I've personally been pretty disappointed with C18 as it hasn't given us any interesting tools to work with. I've gone over the list at least 3 times to make sure I didn't miss anything and still can't anything worth including. There were only three cards that were remotely interesting for the deck (one being the card you mentioned), but none of them are worth running in particular since everything else we run is just better.
So here are my thoughts on the only applicable cards in C18 for this list:
- Night Incarnate - Interesting card, but pretty self-destructive for what this deck wants to do. It kills Grenzo at 3 meaning we either slow ourselves down after using it, or we have to constantly cast Grenzo at 4. But even then, our deck is all about building a large board that we can abuse through the plethora of combos available to us. So wiping the board is almost always disadvantageous.
- Treasure Nabber - Probably the only one that's worth testing since it can steal artifacts and turn that mana directly into additional flips. However, it's potential for value does not guarantee value. And towards the end of the game when everyone already has more mana than they need, this creature is essentially a worthless flip. So it's too situational for my tastes.
- Reality Scramble - This card....this card was the greatest disappointment of the whole C18 reveal. I've never been so excited in my initial reading to then be immediately disappointed by the ending text.
Transform one of our creatures into another creature off the top?
Sounds good.
Put the transformed creature on the bottom?
Phenomenal!
Retrace?
An abusable noncreature deadflip is amazing!
However, what kills the card for me is that all of those noncreature cards you reveal are placed back on the bottom (thus inhibiting your future flips). And to make matters worse, it's random. If it put those cards in the graveyard, it would have been an amazing addition, but as it exists right now it's a hard pass.
That's it for my C18 review. Hopefully the guilds of Ravnica can give us a little more Rakdos love.
While we miss out on the haste we get a buff in power/toughness and dodge the echo cost.
Definitely good alternatives! I'll place both of them in the alternative picks list. I personally will stick with Avalanche Riders since I prefer to keep creatures at 2 power or lower whenever possible (in case Grenzo loses his +1 at some point).
Have you ever tested Goblin Charbelcher in this deck? I don't know if it's consistent enough but being able to stack the bottom of your deck with whatever you reveal seems pretty cool
Honestly, this is not a card I've ever considered, but it does seem hilarious. The issue I have with it for this list is the cost of casting and then activating which could instead be used for flips that would do so much more. However, I am working on a more casual friendly version with no infinites and will probably throw the Goblin Charbelcher into it for kicks and giggles.
My mistake btw, I misread Volley Veteran and realized it only targets creatures...so sad, cause I was so excited to see Goblin War Strike on a creature.
Love to hear the stories!! I haven't had the pleasure of experiencing a good Plaguecrafter lock yet, but it sounds glorious
I have two primary problems with Noosegraf Mob
1. No immediate impact. This deck is about abusing our own cards on our time, but Noosegraf Mob is a do nothing 5/5 that requires OPPONENT interaction to actually do something. Which leads me to the next problem...
2. Requires opponent action. Our opponents have to cast spells to get additional creatures, so it's intrinsically worse than Siege-gang Commander or Marionette Master who immediately provide the creatures we want to start saccing. And unlike Noosegraf, they also have additional functionalities with the creatures they summon.
So with those two issues in mind, I personally wouldn't run this card.
So glad to hear you're having fun with it!!! I'm always encouraged to know others have found the joy of Grenzo.
There's my review! Happy dungeon-delving everyone, and I'll be updating the primer soon to reflect several changes in my own deck list.
Alright, you guys have convinced me to make the switch. I do agree that Junktroller hasn't been doing enough for me in my recent matches, so I'll switch him out in the next update
When I have the time, I'm going to put out my review of the set, but the big takeaway is Plaguecrafter is our money card for the set. It's a direct upgrade on Fleshbag Marauder. He hits planeswalkers and makes opponents start discarding cards once we've abused it enough. Definitely an immediate auto-include
I like this a lot and may have to find a spot for it. It's essentially another priest that can also serve as an alternative source of infinite with Ashnod's Altar.
I also like this card with the synergy it provides to the creatures you mentioned in addition to Furystoke Giant. The harest part will be trying to find a space for another strong creature...
I considered it, but it's definitely not an auto-include in my opinion. You'll be paying the mana anyways, so tapping it for the token is essentially the same thing. The benefit is really when Grenzo temporarily leaves play, but I want to be cautious with adding too many non-colored lands. I'll play test it and see if it helps enough to warrant an inclusion.
I typically would rather use the two mana to flip and see what I can get (I still enjoy the luck aspect of the deck), but I do think this can be a potential inclusion with the scry AND potential ramp it offers. I'll also play test this out.
Why do there have to be so many good colorless lands!!!! We need colored mana too, friends! Lol, but in all seriousness I do like the idea of having non-feelbad lands to flip. So I'll definitely replace a Swamp with Dakmore Salvage and see if I can find a spot to fit in Drownyard Temple as well. Also, I still have to find a spot for Soldevi Adnate as well >>
Also we may have found a new addition in the newly revealed Goblin Cratermaker!!! Pay 1 colorless to destroy target Eldrazi, Karn, or artifact seems pretty good...
Hey PenThief,
I've had pushback too when explaining this specific rule before. The interaction works in your favor due to the fact that Grenzo does not specify zone of retrieval. He says put the creature into the graveyard, and then put it into play (unspecified from where) if it's power is equal to or less than Grenzo's.
The specific rule that helps Grenzo is
400.7h. If an effect causes an object to move to a public zone, other parts of that effect can find that object. If the cost of a spell or ability causes an object to move to a public zone, that spell or ability's effects can find that object.
This is the reason that Oblivion Ring doesn't bring back your commander from the command zone when destroyed. Because it specifies return the EXILED card to play.
And it's the same reason Banishing Light WILL return your commander to play even if you choose to put it into the command zone. Banishing Light doesn't specify the card has to remain in exile, and thus if the card is in a public zone, it's retrievable. So I'd encourage people to look up the rulings if they're unsure or share this rule with them. If not, show them some of the topics others have already made. There's plenty of them. Hope this helps!
Extra note added: This only works with replacement effects. If your opponent exiles your commander with Banishing Light and you choose to send to the command zone, and then you play your commander and he gets destroyed and resent to the command zone, Banishing Light will no longer return your commander. This is because your commander has actively switched zones (CZ to play, and then back to CZ) and thus is no longer retrievable by Banishing Light.
It is a massive honor to know that I have provided inspiration to the user that first inspired me to build this list. Thanks for helping me find my love for my favorite commander ever
Here are my responses to your questions/thoughts:
- Junktroller - Honestly, this is probably the next card on the chopping block. The fact that it's a fairly fragile creature, can only flip once, and needs help to have haste has left a lot to be desired. I primarily added it for it's ability to create another source of infinite with Thornbite Staff and Ashnod's Altar, but I think I have yet to ever run into this scenario. So I agree with your assessment that this might need to go.
- Tel-Jilad Stylus - I really love this card a lot, and have found that the instant recursion of our powerful ETB's can be extremely powerful. This alone has saved several game losses where I could instantly reflip Gray Merchant of Asphodel to gain 20+ life, netted me tons of mana by chump blocking with Solemn Simulacrum and stylusing it before combat damage is dealt, and also is an important way to save Grenzo from single target removal using only the Stylus and himself.
And being able to re-use a creature already on the field (like Meteor Golem) is something that is vital when a sac outlet/recursion outlet isn't available.
- Reito Lantern - This is in as a more sturdy form of recursion. And though it might be a bit of investment to recur it if it's accidentally flipped, being able to instantly grab your best ETB's for 5 mana has proven extremely powerful. Obviously, Epitaph Golem is better, but he's much more fragile as a creature which is why I prefer to have this alternate (harder to kill) version.
Also, it still creates the infinite loop with Ashnod's Altar and Siege-gang Commander/Marionette Master.
- Furystoke Giant - Another card that I wasn't sure about initially, but has pulled massive weight for me. This deck naturally builds up a hefty board state with the amount of creatures, and giving 10+ creatures on the field the ability to tap for 2 damage can often mean a selective board wipe or an instant kill to a player. And since everything is typically done on the end of the opponent's turn, you can sac the Giant to do it all over again on your next untap step. I would highly recommend slotting him back in as he's highly effective, even with a small board state.
And the fact that he can be sacced twice to Ashnod's Altar is just an added bonus.
- Deathbringer Thoctar/Goblin Sharpshooter - With the amount of saccing I do with this list, these both have been absolutely insane, and I can't tell you how many times these two cards have won me the game. Deathbringer Thoctar especially has been one of my favorite powerhouses and my playgroup's most feared drops. Any creature that dies gives you a stored free ping to anything!!!! "Oh you played Avenger of Zendikar? Remove a counter, kill a plant, gain a counter, remove a counter, kill a plant, etc."
Token decks are crippled, and swinging in at a player with a 30/30+ Thoctar, killing that player, and then removing 27 counters to kill another player has happened more times than I can count.
Hope that answers your questions as to why I chose these cards and keep sticking with them! But I'll probably have to follow your lead on the switch out from Junktroller to Whisper, Blood Liturgist
That sounds like a fun experiment! I don't think you're crazy at all for trying something like that. My only warning though is that you might find Grenzo gets way more expensive much more quickly if your opponents decide to hate on you.
Always happy to help! Let me know how the games go
Hi PenThief! Welcome to the Dungeoneers!
I've personally been pretty disappointed with C18 as it hasn't given us any interesting tools to work with. I've gone over the list at least 3 times to make sure I didn't miss anything and still can't anything worth including. There were only three cards that were remotely interesting for the deck (one being the card you mentioned), but none of them are worth running in particular since everything else we run is just better.
So here are my thoughts on the only applicable cards in C18 for this list:
- Night Incarnate - Interesting card, but pretty self-destructive for what this deck wants to do. It kills Grenzo at 3 meaning we either slow ourselves down after using it, or we have to constantly cast Grenzo at 4. But even then, our deck is all about building a large board that we can abuse through the plethora of combos available to us. So wiping the board is almost always disadvantageous.
- Treasure Nabber - Probably the only one that's worth testing since it can steal artifacts and turn that mana directly into additional flips. However, it's potential for value does not guarantee value. And towards the end of the game when everyone already has more mana than they need, this creature is essentially a worthless flip. So it's too situational for my tastes.
- Reality Scramble - This card....this card was the greatest disappointment of the whole C18 reveal. I've never been so excited in my initial reading to then be immediately disappointed by the ending text.
That's it for my C18 review. Hopefully the guilds of Ravnica can give us a little more Rakdos love.
Definitely good alternatives! I'll place both of them in the alternative picks list. I personally will stick with Avalanche Riders since I prefer to keep creatures at 2 power or lower whenever possible (in case Grenzo loses his +1 at some point).
Honestly, this is not a card I've ever considered, but it does seem hilarious. The issue I have with it for this list is the cost of casting and then activating which could instead be used for flips that would do so much more. However, I am working on a more casual friendly version with no infinites and will probably throw the Goblin Charbelcher into it for kicks and giggles.
Seems like it could offer some fun utility too with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker as a potential wincon.