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  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Hey crownedzoidberg, I appreciate the thoughts. I already include Goblin Welder in my list cause he's definitely a powerhouse worth listing. However, all of the other cards you've mentioned either go against a major theme in my list (minimizing amount of noncreature nonrecurrable cards like Daretti) or I've included a previous explanation for their exclusion.

    But here are quicker takes on each of the cards you mentioned:
    • Myr Retriever - Used to be in the list, but was replaced by Junk Diver because it also serves as a flying blocker. This card is still in my other includes list.
    • Mayhem Devil - I would never replace Deathbringer Thoctar. It fulfills a completely different niche than Mayhem Devil and has won me far too many games to ever want to cut it. As for cost, I don't typically cast things anyways. All my mana goes into Grenzo with this list. This is a good card, and if you're in a sac-heavy meta, it's a good hate piece. But it's not a necessity.
    • Goblin Trashmaster - Still in my possible includes list. Was in originally, but was cut. Could easily make it's way back, but I haven't felt lacking without it.
    • Goblin Cratermaker - Also in my possible includes list. Still a good card that doesn't do much in my current meta. Also, you'll see a common theme that I don't like paying mana for extra effects unless it leads to a win.
    • Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - Drawing cards is actually not something I want to do with this deck. I want to flip, and drawing cards to cast cards goes directly against that vision.
    • Withered Wretch - It can work, but didn't work for me in my early testing. Low impact entrance with a mana costed ability that cuts into more flips.
    • Chittering Witch - Actually purposefully not included because it's tokens are dependent on the number of players, unlike Siege-Gang Commander and my other token producers.
    • Scaretiller - Too slow for my taste. I like to have immediate impact once it hits the board or an extremely powerful delayed effect. Grabbing a land from hand or GY is good, but not worth cutting any of my other more powerful options for.
    • Murderous Rider - Super low impact creature. For sure not worth it in my opinion.
    • Shadows of the Past - Definitely a strong card, but it's not a creature or artifact meaning it's not recurrable. My list focuses on flips, so anything that could add to a dead-flip ratio has to have a massive impact to make it worth running.
    • Conjurer's Bauble - As stated above, it's gotta be crazy strong to be worth running if it's increasing your chances to deadflip. I'd rather have Tel-Jilad Stylus for consistent results. As for the looping, this seems a little more complicated than the loops we already have. If we're assuming a mana-positive digger loop with Ashnod's Altar out, then we can just win the game instead with Cauldron or any other activatable artifact. If we're assuming a non-mana-positive loop, then once again it goes against the grain of my deck to focus on flipping 24/7.

    Hope this explains my reasoning for exclusions and differences between our lists!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Well I have good news and bad news friends.

    Bad news: ToE only offered one card of interest to the deck.
    Good news: It's quite the card!!!!

    The Cauldron of Eternity - This card is just another example of a seemlingy "alright" card that becomes immediately busted with the right commander. The drawback in this card is the entire reason we play it, and it serves as an easy method of assembling a half-automated digger loop. Now, I am cautiously optimistic with the card, and here are my reasons:

    1. It's expensive. As you know, I'm extremely picky with how I utilize my mana when playing Grenzo. That being said, it does become cheap very quickly with the amount of creatures we already put in our own GY.

    2. It's uncontrollable. What if someone continuously targets your Goblin Sharpshooter with their own so that you're constantly having to flip the same creature? I could see possible scenarios where you get locked into wasting massive amounts of mana just to get to a new flip.

    3. It's redudant. You know how picky I am about the number of noncreature cards I run, and we already have other ways to set up our digger loops.

    Despite these concerns, I due feel it's worth immediate testing as the biggest boon in it's favor is that it effectively removes half of the mana cost required with a digger loop. So once it's in play, the game becomes close to over. I will most likely be subbing this in for Reito Lantern, as it effectively costs the same amount of cmc (assuming you have 5+ creatures in GY), and the activation cost is much heavier on the Lantern.

    Let me know if there are any other cards you feel I should take a look at with ToE. Happy flipping, friends!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Well, I guess I was able to find the time to get this update out sooner than I expected! So here's the update to the current list. The main post should also be updated to reflect these changes!

    Goblin Cratermaker - This little guy has been fine in my testing, but has never really blown me away. He's been on my chopping block for a while, and I found such a powerful replacement that he was my first decision to cut.

    Judith, the Scourge Diva - A great card that could've been infinitely more valuable with the lack of the "nontoken" clause. She's another card that has been fine in my testing, but I've rarely been excited to flip Judith as she requires a lot of other setup pieces to be worthwhile.

    Millikin - I'm always wary of replacing mana dorks, but I feel like this addition is worthy of taking one out. Also, I've had a contentious relationship with Millikin as for every time it bins a creature card I can reanimate through the digger loop, it's also binned my Ashnod's or Thornbite which is never ideal.

    Goblin Engineer - This little goblin is a house. He immediately can tutor and bin any of our most powerful artifacts (Ashnod's Altar, Heartstone, Thornbite Staff, Nim Deathmantle), but he can also easily recur them to our hand to cast. I love my GY tutors, and this guy is no exception.

    Sling-Gang Lieutenant - Another amazing token generator that also serves as a sac outlet! What more could you want?! With a digger loop online, he can serve as a self-contained win condition with all of the life loss (which let's not forget, gets around a lot of annoyances).

    Dockside Extortionist - Ever since this little capitalist was spoiled, I knew he'd be an amazing inclusion in the deck. In more casual metas, he might be an extremely lackluster flip, but as the game progresses, his ability to generate 5+ treasure cannot be underestimated. Cards that meet multiple roles are always great, and this card serves as ramp and a possible infinite.

    Delegated to Alternative List:

    All three removed cards - The cards that I removed are still good, and you shouldn't feel bad for running them. They can be great depending on your meta/play style. They just don't fit in mine currently.

    Chainer, Nightmare Adept - This card is great as a discard outlet, a source of haste and a possible way to recast creatures from the graveyard (sorcery speed). He's still in testing, but for now I feel confident putting him in this list until I've determined if he's a good fit (and what he can replace).
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Quote from Acedio »
    Another one I'm interested in trying out is Scaretiller. I don't think it'll be great, but I've been really longing for a way to get all those lands out of Grenzo's yard. I feel like, in my meta, there's usually someone that I'll be able to swing at and have it survive, but even if you do only get one activation off this guy it's still a pseudo-Solemn Simulacrum.

    I typically prefer immediate or immense impact with the flips I find. I don't think this is a bad inclusion, I'm just unsure if I'm going to run it at this time. Definitely let me know how it feels in your testing.

    Quote from Inferno »
    Hey Snowfox do You have any ETA for the upgrade? I saw that you plan on making updated list so i abstained from buying the currenct one.

    I'm going to try to have it out by the end of this week. It's been a crazy month with a baby on the way and a big admissions test I had to take, so I apologize for the massive delay.

    Quote from Helnas »
    Kinda liking the concept of grenzo.
    Just not have infinite or near infinite combos.
    Is grenzo any good without the infinite combos?
    I can understand it is alot less strong but my FNM, and tbh myself, doesnt like infinites combos.

    I believe I linked a more casual list in the thread that took out most of the infinite combos. It still functions as an extremely deadly aristocrats list, so it can definitely be done. To be honest, when building Grenzo, it's really hard to not infinite :p
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Huzzah, it's that time again friends! And this set is much more thrilling than M20. So here is my review of the new cards within C19:

    • Chainer, Nightmare Adept - Amazing addition to the list. He serves as a discard outlet to pitch high cost creatures from our hand, allows us to recast key creatures from our graveyard (assuming a Digger loop isn't available), and as an added bonus gives all of our creatures haste. I will definitely be finding a slot for this guy to start testing.

    • Dockside Extortionist - In my opinion, this is the MVP of this set. Your opponents will often have enough enchantments/artifacts combined to at least make this mana positive; and as the number grows, it'll become a stronger and stronger flip. With at least 5 combined artifacts/enchantments, he serves as another infinite mana generator with Digger Loops. I am definitely finding a place for this guy.

    • K'rrik, Son of Yawgmoth - I love this card so much...just probably not for this deck. We typically don't cast things from hand, and we don't have many activation costs that this would help with (other than maybe Fleshwrither and Crypt Ghast).

    Those are all the cards I saw as possible inclusions, and I am super stoked to include Chainer and DE in the list and start testing. My only complaint is that DE won't be in foil ;_;

    I will also be posting the long overdue update to the decklist soon, so stay tuned!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Dockside Extortionist looks like a pretty great addition for Grenzo. It does come with a bit of variance but it can generate a boatload of mana in the right circumstances and should usually be at least mana neutral except in the rarest of situations.

    My thoughts exactly. Honestly, I think this card is an easy auto-include as it's almost never dead, and with enough artifacts/enchantments, it can be an easy source of infinite digger looping. We still have a lot more cards to see (especially with an entire Rakdos deck on the way), but this set already has me very excited!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Feather, the Redeemed - Weaponised Jankmas Incarnate
    Congrats on the primer status, friend! I agree that Phalanx Leader has never done it for me and was removed from my list very quickly. And Thought Vessel is a must as your hand size gets ludicrously difficult to deal with after a few value turns.

    Anyways, love the list and definitely need to add Aria of Flame to mine Grin
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Is it already that time again? WotC has been pumping out product like never before and I’m loving it! Here is my review for Core Set 20. Overall, the set has a lot of cool cards that I’m excited to play with…in other decks. This set was a little lackluster for Grenzo toys, but not every set can be a homerun. So here is my very short review for M20!

    • Gruesome Scourger – I could see this being an amazing bomb in this list as we typically develop a pretty massive board state. Plus, planeswalker removal is always nice.

    • Rapacious Dragon – Having two treasures enter the battlefield is nice, but we typically creature ETB’s as those are much more abusable, and if we’re looking for extra mana flips, we already have some of the best in Priest of Urabrask, Workhorse and Emrakul’s Hatcher (mana and creatures in one).

    Let me know if there's any other cards from the set you think I missed!
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Let's review the new set! It's been a long time since I've been so excited about a set coming out, and this one gives so many new toys for us to play with. So without further ado, here's my review of Modern Horizons!

    • Alpine Guide - Getting a free land is nice! Losing a land when he dies is not.

    • Cave of Temptation - Not a bad include for those moments where Grenzo loses his +1/+1 counter. But our list already runs a heavy amount of colorless lands, so I want to be cautious about adding more.

    • Endling - More combat oriented than we care for, and its mana costs cuts into Grenzo activations.

    • Goblin Engineer - Personally, my MVP of the set. Finds all three of our best artifacts (Ashnod's Altar, Heartstone & Thornbite Staff) and then has built in recursion to boot. Definitely finding a place in my list.

    • Pashalik Mons - Great for a goblin-centered list, but probably not for this one.

    • Plague Engineer - I do like this as tech against a tribal deck in your meta. This will be added to the alternative picks list, but I don't think it's great enough to be a staple in the main list.

    • Seasoned Pyromancer - This card seems very promising and will definitely require some testing. Creating multiple creatures on one flip is already great, but also potentially discarding expensive creatures in hand helps set us up for future shenanigans.

    • Scrapyard Recombiner - Keep an eye out on this card. We already have a powerful construct in the deck; and as more are potentially printed, there could be some room for this guy in the future.

    • Sling-Gang Lieutenant - My second favorite card in the set. Creature generator, free (limited) sac outlet, and a drain to boot.

    • Warteye Witch - Another great include for goblin-centric lists. Not sure if I'll include it since I don't know what I'd remove for such a passive effect. But Scry is always the strongest mechanic in this deck, so I'll have to test it out.

    • Yawgmoth, Thran Physician - I love this card from a lore perspective, and have definitely considered building a new deck just around him. I love that he's a free sac outlet with two extra effects, but I'm not sure if I'd run him in this list for one main reason; cost The life requirement can quickly become an immense price (especially if you've been using Treasonous Ogre recently), and that deters me from running it immediately.

    There's my review! If you feel like I skipped over one or you have a different opinion on one of the cards above, let me know!

    Also, the blessed London Mulligan has arrived. The age of Grenzo is upon us. All hail our new overlord! (seriously, it's crazy to me this deck gets such a crazy free buff before the game even starts).
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Quote from TheWa11 »
    Hey Snowfox,

    This is my first EDH deck. I started with a majority of your main creature list (minus Recruiter and maybe a few others) and added the budget land base. You won me over with your primer and I've had a blast playing it so far (3-0 in 1v1). Playing 4 player tomorrow night for the first time am definitely excited to see how it fares. Thanks for putting together a great primer. I typically play blue and had been working towards building Yuriko, but your intro spoke to me and I couldn't help, but feel the urge to play the slot machine of value.

    I'll be tweaking the deck as I go -- can't wait to have more discussions about cards in future sets.

    Welcome to the team, TheWa11! I'm always happy to hear other control players finding the joy in chaos.

    Munitions Expert looks like a nice addition for the Goblin tribal leaning lists.

    Agreed. Not great for this list, but Goblin heavy versions will definitely want this.

    Quote from manugl84 »
    goblin engineer

    Looks really good to me. putting stylus, altar or Stone into the GY and reanimate it can be gamebreaking.
    What do you think?
    Quote from Zervintz »
    Goblin Engineer is an auto include in the deck for me. If I had to design a card specifically for this deck I'd probably make something similar.

    This set also has me immensely pumped. Goblin Engineer will definitely be included as it grabs our best artifacts easily.

    The other card they just recently spoiled that will be an absolute auto-include in the deck is Sling-Gang Lieutenant. This card is absolute madness. A token generator AND a sac outlet that drains. This set has been amazing so far and I can't wait to see what else is coming. I'll be putting out my set review once the entire set is spoiled, and there are a lot more cards for me to review this time around.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Quote from PenThief »

    I just started playing around with her on MTGO trying to get a list for paper. Do you have a list? I was running a spellslinger style so far, its so much fun!
    Quote from GrenzoEDH »
    Hey snowfox, did you have a Feather decklist up someplace? I'd love to take a look at what else you've brewed up. I saw darrenhabib's list and was interested in your take on it.

    Sure thing, here's my list. I took some heavy inspiration from darrenhabib's list with the flicker theme, but went with a less prison/stax approach. I like my decks to be explosive (as hopefully you've seen with Grenzo), so that's how I built the list to function.

    I've had a lot of good luck with it, and it's handled a lot of different match-ups like a champ. But it's still a work in progress and definitely isn't as defined as my Grenzo list yet.

    DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    1x Feather, the Redeemed

    Creature (20)
    1x Akroan Crusader
    1x Dualcaster Mage
    1x Duergar Hedge-Mage
    1x Felidar Guardian
    1x Goblin Welder
    1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
    1x Kor Cartographer
    1x Mirrorwing Dragon
    1x Monastery Mentor
    1x Priest of Urabrask
    1x Purphoros, God of the Forge
    1x Runaway Steam-Kin
    1x Solemn Simulacrum
    1x Stoneforge Mystic
    1x Sun Titan
    1x Thermopod
    1x Vanguard of Brimaz
    1x Weathered Wayfarer
    1x Young Pyromancer
    1x Zada, Hedron Grinder

    Sorcery (10)
    1x Chandra's Ignition
    1x Fell the Mighty
    1x Flicker
    1x Gamble
    1x Heat Shimmer
    1x Indomitable Creativity
    1x Past in Flames
    1x Twinflame
    1x Vandalblast
    1x Wheel of Fortune

    Instant (19)
    1x Accelerate
    1x Acrobatic Maneuver
    1x Apostle's Blessing
    1x Aurelia's Fury
    1x Boros Charm
    1x Cloudshift
    1x Crimson Wisps
    1x Divergent Transformations
    1x Eerie Interlude
    1x Enlightened Tutor
    1x Expedite
    1x Justiciar's Portal
    1x Magnetic Theft
    1x Path to Exile
    1x Red Elemental Blast
    1x Shelter
    1x Teferi's Protection
    1x Tithe
    1x Wear / Tear

    Artifact (14)
    1x Aetherflux Reservoir
    1x Boros Signet
    1x Chromatic Lantern
    1x Chrome Mox
    1x Fellwar Stone
    1x Mana Crypt
    1x Paradox Engine
    1x Phyrexian Altar
    1x Primal Amulet Flip
    1x Sensei's Divining Top
    1x Sol Ring
    1x Sunforger
    1x Wayfarer's Bauble
    1x Worn Powerstone

    Land (35)
    1x Ancient Den
    1x Ancient Tomb
    1x Bloodstained Mire
    1x Clifftop Retreat
    1x Flooded Strand
    1x Great Furnace
    1x Marsh Flats
    1x Mikokoro, Center of the Sea
    1x Mistveil Plains
    10x Mountain
    11x Plains
    1x Rugged Prairie
    1x Sacred Foundry
    1x Scalding Tarn
    1x Windswept Heath
    1x Wooded Foothills

    Enchantment (1)
    1x Smothering Tithe

    You can also visit my page on tappedout if you want to see my other brews as well.

    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [WAR] Feather the Redeemed - Legions of a Feather Flicker Together
    Quote from darrenhabib »
    I can see that Indomitable Creativity is a very powerful card. You can destroy the most problematic opponents creatures and artifacts, and roll the dice on hopefully nothing worse comes out of it. You can even target your own artifact to hopefully upgrade. Then as you say you can convert your tokens into real cards.

    My own thing is that you really have to spend all your mana on it at sorcery speed, and this is just not how I play this commander. I'm always holding up mana and reacting during opponents turns.
    So I'd need to configure the deck to be more accommodating. It's like an end-boss spell.
    I could see if I was still playing cards like Priest of Urabrask that I could make it work. Cloudshift turns into a ritual with Priest of Urabrask, so can pay for the RRR portion. I think I'd also like Battle Hymn as a way to fuel it.

    Purphoros, God of the Forge definitely gets the job done, but I'm from the old school of magic where the less cards that are only dedicated to actual winning the better. Meaning I'm quite happy to get opponents in a pretty good lock and then just kill them with 1/1s if necessary. Sure it takes longer, but I've found perfect inevitability once you get them in a state where they cant play out anything as it'll just be removed.
    The other thing is I like a little bit of subterfuge with just how under the gun opponents are once I've got an engine going. Purphoros, God of the Forge puts it right in their faces, so they know they have to deal with you exclusively. If you just gain card advantages, then opponents don't feel so compelled to deal with you directly..even though they actually really do.

    I didn't realize you took Priest out of your list. I've kept him in, because with the amount of bouncing my list does, it's been helpful to have that extra push.

    As for Creativity, in all of my games I tested this weekend, I was swimming in mana, and despite using up a good chunk of it to cast Creativity, I still had left over. Plus, you can bet you're getting rocks or Paradox Engine off of it which will just net you more mana for that sweet protection.

    I guess we have slightly different goals in our list. I enjoy a good lockout, but like to end with a flash which is why Indomitable Creativity and Purphoros are right up my alley. Overall, love the list though and was a huge inspiration for my starting list! Smile
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on [WAR] Feather the Redeemed - Legions of a Feather Flicker Together
    So if I can make a recommendation for one of my pet cards, Indomitable Creativity is crazy in this deck. Because of the token presence this deck can generate, you can easily get amazing value off of this card (plus it can always be removal in a pinch). I recently played a game where I had 10 creatures on board, cast IC with X=1 targeting Zada, Hedron Grinder, and then cast Boros Charm. Needless to say, I won that game swiftly.

    I also run Purphoros, God of the Forge in my list due to all of the blinking and token generating. I feel like it makes a great back-up wincon and it has won me several of the matches I've played.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Sorry for the delay friends! It's been a crazy couple of weeks with classes and studying for the DAT. And most of my Magic time has been brewing and playing with Feather, the Redeemed which is definitely my 2nd favorite deck to Grenzo. Anyways, here's my quick review of the War of the Spark set:

    Honestly, there's not a lot for Grenzo here. There were really only two cards I found that even interest me:

    - Mayhem Devil - Another great source of ping damage. It triggers off of any sac which makes it interesting versus other sac heavy match-ups. I'm not sure what I'd replace for this though. It's definitely not overtaking Deathbringer Thoctar or Goblin Sharpshooter as death triggers are so much more reliable (and are what allow us to ping down boards). I could see the argument for Judith, the Scourge Diva, but even then, I like her +1 power enabler as well as her Diva-ness.

    - Bolas's Citadel - What?!!?!? We're talking about a noncreature card in this primer? Well, yes, but not vehemently. I really like this card as a method of utilizing our top deck and not delving into our available mana for Grenzo activations. Would I ever cast this from hand? No. Would I like to have this enter the battlefield via a Goblin Welder or Kuldotha Forgemaster activation? Sure, but I'd rather have Ashnod's Altar first. So I don't know if it's worth it, but it should be fun testing out to see if I can get it online.

    Those are my thoughts at least. Hopefully Modern Horizons will give us some exciting toys to play with.
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
  • posted a message on Grenzo, Dungeon Warden - The Slot Machine of Value
    Quote from stu. »
    Sorry for the bombardment of questions - any thoughts on Jeweled Amulet? My reasoning is that it's free to play, if we only have 1 mana up we can charge it end of turn then use the mana next turn. I would replace a land for it (I'll test it next time my group gets together. Thanks again Smile

    Let me know how it goes for you. It seems a little slow to me, but I'd be open to hear about your testing.

    Quote from kraus911 »
    Finally got some games in with my build. What a fun deck. Deathbringer Thoctar is the real deal. Much better than Blood Artist in its versatility. Had an awesome Balthor the Defiled turn where I unearthed Corpse Connoisseur to put Thoctar in the grave first, got all of my creatures back and then went off. A card I put in that's not on your list but did serious work was Rummaging Goblin. It got Anger in the graveyard early game and helped me filter through my deck to find the pieces I needed.

    Thanks for the inspiration!

    I imagine you'll wait until the full set is out to look at what might make it into the deck, but Mayhem Devil looks promising.

    Glad to hear you've been having fun! And I completely agree with you. Deathbringer Thoctar is an absolute bro, and I love flipping him just as much as my opponent's hate seeing him. He's often their primary target for a Path to Exile since they know how problematic he can be.

    As for the review, I am indeed waiting on the full spoiler. But I can say currently, I have only see two potential includes (Mayhem Devil being one of them). Overall, I've been a little disappointed, but I can't expect the list to receive a bomb every set :p
    Posted in: Multiplayer Commander Decklists
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