I am a HUGE proponent of proactive boards for green devotion decks (I just feel like the mechanic fits these types of decks better); but Gutteral Response can be quite a blowout. They just generally don't expect you to have an answer without blue at instant speed. I don't play them currently (I play white right now; so I have a very proactive, enchantment heavy board); but I could totally see someone playing a G/R deck using this card and finding very big advantages....that; and being able to hold up 1-mana to ensure your Genesis Wave is cast seems more than worth it...I think it is definitely worth a try in a G/R-only deck for sure...and maybe even worth it outside of these (especially in combo-heavy decks that want to make sure their big spells are cast).
Cavern of Souls is something I've found to be amazingly powerful vs. Control decks; however this isn't something that works in every build. Unfortunately, I've had very little success with Boseiju, Who Shelters All....I almost feel like to make that card effective enough (as you only run one) is to play some combination of Primeval Titan, Sylvan Scrying, and/or Knight of the Reliquary to tutor for it...I just seemed to have it when I didn't need it, wanted it when I didn't have it, etc. I think it does have something to do with the deck styles I play, however. I tend to play quite "fast" decks; so even drawing it on turn 3-4 may not be useful (as I have to wait a turn for it to untap). That could be an important point to my limited success/non-use of the card. I'm sure others have had a little more success with it than I have...who knows; maybe it's worth playing two copies...
Honestly, I am starting to believe in Young Pyromancer. However, I don't know how I would sideboard with it. It just seems that if I am running Gitaxian Probe in my flex spots then I will have to cut it in games 2 and 3, which seems suboptimal. Any ideas?
I have to agree. It seems as though young pyromancer has performed for other players. I never had much sucess with pyromancer when I played with it, but you can't argue with results. They are great cards and have great synergy together. I'm sorry to say I can't help you with the sideboarding with it because I don't play the card very much.
I have always found that running young pyromancer and swiftspear in the same deck basically forced the remainder of the to be a ton of cantrips, small burn spells, etc. I just didn't feel comfortable playing that way. It obviously works most of the time, but as could be seen in Ivan Floch's match, if you run up against a deck with powerful cards or a small amount of life gain, it becomes extremely hard to win. I think the lack of jund, lingering souls, pryoclasm/anger decks like control/GR Trom, etc has lead to UR delver being over represented and possibly over performing. With that said, there was only one delver deck in the top 8 in Milan (Temur Delver) and it was the only deck in the top 8 with treasure cruise. It may be due to most players in Milan being prepared to face UR Delver deck. If the #1 seed junk deck from Milan picks up, the base UR delver decks will have to adjust, but again this is if the junk/jund builds pick up. They are very susceptible to treasure cruise which has lead to their demise. Who knows what will happen? All I know is that I don't know
I'm going to have to test more with young pyro and swiftspear, but I still think my build is the best build for me. I would like to see the makeup of the other Jeskai Delver builds in Milan. Are there any decklists other than the top 8 listed anywhere?
Boom/Bust seems extremely interesting. A good portion of my mana/devotion comes from land enchantments (Utopia Sprawl, Abundant Growth) and untapping lands (Arbor Elf, Garruk Wildspeaker, etc.) so I'm not sure it would fit in any of my builds...but I would love to hear from those using it. Do you ever utilize the "Bust" side (i.e. Destroy all lands). Obviously, in most cases (seeing as how many of our creatures can create mana) it will be far more damaging to the opponent than it is to us...is this something that happens often?
It seems like it is a great card in the right decks. I just haven't played it much so I'd love to hear about it, synergies with other cards, fun examples of it in play, etc.
Quick side note...seeing the early results from GP Madrid; it looks as though Pod, Boggles, Affinity, and both Engineered Explosives and Chalice of the Void (often set on 1) are becoming popular. For this reason, I've added a 1-of Reclamation Sage to the main board as a "Support Card" to both my current list as well as the list of "Support Cards" in the "Mini-Primer" for Elf Devotion decks. Not super important; but just thought I'd post for anyone playing Elf lists.
I agree with you as well Drake525 that Cloudstone Curio just seems like a clunky card. I've tried several different builds trying to make the more "traditional" Elf Combo cards (Beck/Call, Cloustone Curio, Intruder Alarm, Nettle Sentinel, etc.) and I just can't get it to be as effective as some of the other builds...
sweet stomp build ProTourPlayer. i love BTE, total devotion explosion. throw some bonfires in that mfr!
I agree. Bonfire's would be unreal in that build. I feel like Bonfire is a "stompy" staple. This is a great Stompy version! When I first started playing devotion, I pretty much used Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra in nearly every build. Khalni Hydra is AWESOME in Elf builds (because he generally will only cost four mana which your elves can produce (so basically each elf becomes a mana "dork" that can tap for GG for him)...He was a staple of my first "infinite combo" elf deck (that used Elvish Archdruid and Umbral Mantle) to get infinite mana and infinitely large Genesis Waves and/or infinitely large elves. Honestly, having seen your list, I may need to re-address Khalni Hydra. And Primalcrux is the grandfather of devotion (chroma); and he just feels like he should be in devotion decks
I'm NOT saying this is a problem with your list by any means; but the issue(s) I ran into when playing Primalcrux and/or Khalni Hydra were that I didn't always have all green mana to cast them. I felt that splashing another color, and utilizing lands like Kessig Wolf Run and Cavern of Souls added such huge advantages to the deck that I found I often had 6-mana; but only 5 of it was Green...also, the fact that both could be "path-ed" the second I cast them (using 6-8 mana). If you stick solely to green lands; however, this is not a huge issue.
Just as an aside, one card I found REALLY powerful that doesn't see a ton of play but is awesome in very devotion-centric decks like this is Aspect of Hydra. Especially once you have a Primalcrux or Khalni Hydra out, being able to pat 1 green at instant speed to pump any creature by +8/+8 or more (or just effectively doubling Primalcrux's power) is well worth a 1-of spot in a devotion-heavy Stompy build. I do understand, however, that both Aspect of Hydra and Bonfire may take away from your Primal Surge, however; so that would be a trade off you'd have to see which worked out best over a dozens/hundreds of games.
GREAT deck! It's straight-forward; but it takes advantage of the devotion mechanic in a great way! I was hoping to see a few more Stompy builds pop up; and this is a great one!
*You could get away with playing one Pendlehaven...it doesn't come into play tapped, taps for green mana, and can pump one of your 1/1's (which can be nice in this environment of forked bolts, electrolyzes, gut shots, etc. I've been playing it lately and loving it (although I have a lot more 1/1's than you). Just seems like a potential upside with very little downside in your build. Also, a 1-of Treetop Village could be more beneficial than hurtful (i.e. where you need the 1-mana that turn). The treetop has far more negative potential; however more upside as well*
GREAT DECK!! Let us know how it performs and/or any evolutions of the deck.
Pendelhaven seems interesting, but I'm normally tapping out every turn and if I'm not, I'm either really far ahead or really far behind. Also, it can't be fetched and Utopia Sprawl can't enchant it. So it doesn't seem worth it to me.
Yeah...Pendlehaven may not be worth it. I just started testing it more heavily lately. Of course, it's far more beneficial in an Elf build. I've just found in an environment filled with Forked Bolts, Searing Blood, Gut Shot, Electrolyze, Magma Jets, Pillar of Flame, etc. it has actually been beneficial for me in more cases than I originally anticipated (allowing me to keep the tempo going in some cases). This, however, is pretty "timing dependent" and could be coincidence (haven't tested it enough to consider any real trend). If in the long run I run into too many games where I miss a Utopia Sprawl enchantment I will probably drop it. It's going to take WAY more testing than I've done now.
I was just trying to think of some green-only utility lands (as utility lands can be extremely useful) in decks that can generate tons of mana. The only ones I could think of where Treetop Village, Pendlehaven, Mutavault, Cavern of Souls, and Mosswort Bridge. Mutavault seemed out (because with Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra you don't want ANY non-green mana). The list doesn't have enough "cross tribal types" (i.e. a few Hydra's, multiple Elementals, etc.) to make Cavern worth. Both Treetop Village and Mosswort Bridge come into play tapped; so I wasn't sure how important tempo was to the built (and/or if you ever had more mana than you needed). That left only Pendlehaven (as it is a green land that doesn't come into play tapped Between Arbor Elf, Utopia Sprawl, Primalcrux, and Khalni Hydra...you may be right just to stick to a bunch of Forests and Fetches!
As an aside (i.e. more of an "overall statement")...it seems like Mosswort bridge may work well in some of the Stompy builds (as in many cases; the turn you play it you will be able to play the "free" card). Ugh....so many fun cards to play with and so little room!!!!
Please keep us informed as to what changes (if any) you make in the future, any testing/playing results, etc. Cool list! Thanks for posting it!
Thanks everybody for the feedback! I'll try to get a tournament report, sadly I don't have modern events at my local store, so I'll just see what I can do. Anyways, the Khalni Hydras are such a big problem for most decks that, once you cast one, most decks are already under HUGE pressure. In this respect, khalni hydra is almost a utility creature; it's cheap, big and gives eight devotion(!). Primalcrux is ridiculous against midrange decks. They have to focus hard enough on khalni and Primalcrux that the craterhoofs and whatnot snap kill out of nowhere before they can build a decent board. Also, lotus cobra helps get a big board on turn 2 and 3. Why doesn't anyone use it?
Yeah...both Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra are definitely "must deal with" cards! You are absolutely right that your build most likely destroys any "fair"/midrange deck
There have been a few lists on here that have played Lotus Cobra; but you are right that it hasn't been heavily represented here. It seems to work best in two types of Devotion decks. The first is "Stompy" Builds with several fetches, and the second is some "Silver Bullet" builds that run Knight of the Reliquary and/or Primeval Titan (as they have strong synergy).
It is one of those cards that only fits in certain builds though. This is mainly due to the fact that it is a 2-drop mana generator vs. the many 1-drops like Birds, Utopia Sprawl, Noble Hierarch, Arbor Elf, Elvish Mystic, etc. There's no doubt it can end up making more mana than the others (assuming you have the cards to support it); but it does take some "build around me" forethought. Kinda the same problem Sylvan Caryatid has (great mana source, but 2-drop). There are certainly decks (such as yours) where it is well worth the extra 1-mana (as it can get crazy how much mana it can produce). Your list/discussion will also help others see the benefits it can have in decks/during games.
If we are thinking about Curio and Beck//Call I think we are moving more towards modern combo elves. That deck has started running Nykthos. A sweet deck but it has a primer
I see what you mean. I don't like the idea of leaning on Cloudstone Curio, so maybe Beck // Call isn't the play. The issue that I run into, is if my board gets wiped, my devotion goes in the tank and makes it almost impossible to get anything done. Tron is the biggest problem, between Pyroclasm and Oblivion Stone. Card advantage might enable me to cobble a win condition together before Oblivion Stone kills everything.
Here's my current decklist. It seems to work well against almost everything except Tron. Suggestions and feedback would be great!
Neat list! Extremely solid. In all honesty, you really aren't ever going to find a deck that is good against everything in game one. There will always be a few poor match-ups. It's part of what makes Magic great (no one deck is great against everything). You're in a great place, because you know exactly what your toughest match up is; so you can side against it. It's very important that decks be looked at as 75 cards over 3 games rather than 60 over 1. In terms of Tron being the worst match-up; you are most likely going to want a little land destruction/mana denial in your board. Damocles69 is exactly right that Beast Within and Ghost Quarter are great options. You've also already got some red splashed, so other great options are Stone Rain and Blood Moon...Blood Moon will shut them (as well as a good amount of other decks); so I would certainly try that out (since you run 9 forests, you should be fine getting to the 2-3 forests you'd need long-term).
As a more "traditional" devotion deck (I only mean that you run Genesis Wave and the Primal/Witness lock as well as Chord) you most likely have no problems at all against any fair decks, are pretty strong against Pod, and even are good against Burn (especially with Primal Command's +7 life). You're only issues (or bad match ups) would be things like Tron, Twin, Ad Nauseum, Asendancy, Storm, etc. Basically, just super fast "combo" decks. That is perfectly fine. You can simply board things like Blood Moon, Choke/Boil, Stone Rain, etc. In Green/Red; I feel like a land destruction/mana denial strategy is one of the better ways to slow down combo decks while still playing your game (as you don't have access to white or Thoughtsieze)
But that is just boarding for tougher match-ups. Like I said; you are in a great place as you've tested enough to know where you're more difficult match-ups are. The list looks extremely solid; with no real "week" cards (i.e. every card is an efficient use of the mana with a ton of resiliency via Thrun, Strangleroot, etc. and card draw via Eternal Witness, Visionary, Wave, Selkie, etc.). Great list. With a good mana denial package and maybe a few Bonfires; you should have a pretty good 3-game match up against a good majority of the meta!
Hey all! I've been tinkering with my deck quite a bit, and have had some good results. I'm not quite ready to post a new list yet, but I was wondering if there is a consensus on the value of a blue splash?
I've been singing Coiling Oracle's praises for quite some time now. In my opinion, if you're splashing blue; you should be playing Coiling Oracle...but I also am very biased to the card (as I generally play Elf/Druid builds and he is both, while ramping, while drawing, while adding 1-devotion...so if there's a vote, I vote "yay" for Coiling Oracle
The Forbidden Orchard / Beck combo seems extremely cute; but it fixes your mana at the same time; so there may be enough there...it is very scary to give your opponent 1/1 flyers more than once in a game; but if you are running four Becks; it may be worth it. It's definitely a really cool and smart find.
Nettle Sentinel (in my opinion) is really only a useful card if you go the full "Elf Combo" route. The synergy it has with Heritage Druid, Intruder Alarm, Cloudstone Curio, etc. is awesome; but unless you are planning on going full combo I'm not sure if you're not better off with just another mana dork. I could be very wrong though. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on it.
Murkfiend Leige is a cool idea. Especially if you're running cards like Coiling Oracle or even Wisful Selkie.
There are some GREAT synergies here! I'd love to hear more about it, see your list, etc. I really think you could build something out of all of these ideas.
If we are thinking about Curio and Beck//Call I think we are moving more towards modern combo elves. That deck has started running Nykthos. A sweet deck but it has a primer
I just look at all options...in all honesty; I've yet to find it as strong as the other elf builds thus far. Could be my breweing; but it just seems a little too fragile (and too many pieces to get to the combo. The eschew the fatties and/or genesis spells for Cloudstone Curio, Intruder Alarm, etc. (which are bad top decks in may cases). I just wanted to know if anyone had tried it out yet or found the "perfect balance" that I had yet to find. I read their primer and discussion and was going to mention Nykthos and devotion (as I didn't actually see they were running it in any of their lists/discussions). I'll have to re-read it.
sweet stomp build ProTourPlayer. i love BTE, total devotion explosion. throw some bonfires in that mfr!
I agree. Bonfire's would be unreal in that build. I feel like Bonfire is a "stompy" staple. This is a great Stompy version! When I first started playing devotion, I pretty much used Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra in nearly every build. Khalni Hydra is AWESOME in Elf builds (because he generally will only cost four mana which your elves can produce (so basically each elf becomes a mana "dork" that can tap for GG for him)...He was a staple of my first "infinite combo" elf deck (that used Elvish Archdruid and Umbral Mantle) to get infinite mana and infinitely large Genesis Waves and/or infinitely large elves. Honestly, having seen your list, I may need to re-address Khalni Hydra. And Primalcrux is the grandfather of devotion (chroma); and he just feels like he should be in devotion decks
I'm NOT saying this is a problem with your list by any means; but the issue(s) I ran into when playing Primalcrux and/or Khalni Hydra were that I didn't always have all green mana to cast them. I felt that splashing another color, and utilizing lands like Kessig Wolf Run and Cavern of Souls added such huge advantages to the deck that I found I often had 6-mana; but only 5 of it was Green...also, the fact that both could be "path-ed" the second I cast them (using 6-8 mana). If you stick solely to green lands; however, this is not a huge issue.
Just as an aside, one card I found REALLY powerful that doesn't see a ton of play but is awesome in very devotion-centric decks like this is Aspect of Hydra. Especially once you have a Primalcrux or Khalni Hydra out, being able to pat 1 green at instant speed to pump any creature by +8/+8 or more (or just effectively doubling Primalcrux's power) is well worth a 1-of spot in a devotion-heavy Stompy build. I do understand, however, that both Aspect of Hydra and Bonfire may take away from your Primal Surge, however; so that would be a trade off you'd have to see which worked out best over a dozens/hundreds of games.
GREAT deck! It's straight-forward; but it takes advantage of the devotion mechanic in a great way! I was hoping to see a few more Stompy builds pop up; and this is a great one!
*You could get away with playing one Pendlehaven...it doesn't come into play tapped, taps for green mana, and can pump one of your 1/1's (which can be nice in this environment of forked bolts, electrolyzes, gut shots, etc. I've been playing it lately and loving it (although I have a lot more 1/1's than you). Just seems like a potential upside with very little downside in your build. Also, a 1-of Treetop Village could be more beneficial than hurtful (i.e. where you need the 1-mana that turn). The treetop has far more negative potential; however more upside as well*
GREAT DECK!! Let us know how it performs and/or any evolutions of the deck.
Has anyone else bit the bullet and added a kor firewalker to the sideboard? An advantage of the Jeskai colors is the sideboard hate, and right now kor firewalker is a bomb against burn and UR Delver. I went ahead and added one in place of one aven mindcensor for now. He will probaby last as long as burn and UR delver run rampant.
More testing notes to follow.
Personally, I like Timely Reinforcements more. Firewalker is best when you are also casting red spells and I only have 10 of those in my deck. Besides, Reinforcememts flips Delver, can be Snapcastered, and is better in more matchups. Also, it is still WUR Delver. It will never be Jeskai.
Good points. I play one of those as well. I got tired of WUR, UWR RWU, America, Merica, etc. Jeskai makes it easy. I won't fault anyone for calling it WUR, but I have officially converted
Has anyone else bit the bullet and added a kor firewalker to the sideboard? An advantage of the Jeskai colors is the sideboard hate, and right now kor firewalker is a bomb against burn and UR Delver. I went ahead and added one in place of one aven mindcensor for now. He will probaby last as long as burn and UR delver run rampant.
As an aside for those interested in brewing an "Elf Build"; there are a few ideas that I've been working on that I'm not yet confident I have tuned to a good point. These include:
1. An "Elf Combo" version with cards such as either Intruder Alarm, Nettle Sentinel, and/or Cloudstone Curio (with 1-of Essence Warden for Infinte Life, Joraga Warcaller for infinite pump, etc). Off of a Genesis Wave; you have a very good chance of hitting an infinite combo. Can it be better than a general "Combo Elf" deck (with Beck/Call, etc.)? I think there are definite possibilities of simply incorporating devotion/wave into the "Elf Combo" deck. I've also worked a little with Master Biomancer (mini-synergy with Joraga Warcaller, etc.) in an "Elf Combo" build. I haven't tested it enough to call it a "tuned list" but I'll post it the second I do.
2. A few more "Stompy" versions of the deck. Pedros has already taken the reins here; so I'm excited to see his list and see him kind of "lead the way" on the Elf Core Stompy deck (as he has a really good grasp on it). I'd love to see other decks though; and I will continue to see if we can tune a better version of this deck. Cards I feel could be good are Garruk Caller of Beasts and/or Fauna Shaman.
Of course, I will add the lists/ideas/playtests to the "mini-primer" as I play/tune them. I'm excited to see all the great green brewers on here continue to build awesome decks (Toolbox versions, Stompy versions, Primal Command / "Traditional" versions, etc.). I feel like (thanks to Gnuhouse starting this primer), we have been able to kind of "narrow" what can make a viable Green Devotion deck; and we're getting very close to the point where we will begin posting results to get our favorite archetype into the "top tier" of the meta. Having said this, there will always be new cards and ideas...which is what makes Magic great! I can't wait to see some of the new brews; and more importantly now I can't wait to see more and more green devotion decks played in Dailies and tourneys...
Thank you. Sorry for the confusion. The next Modern GP is Milan in Decemeber I believe. Typo. Thanks for posting the link.
I am a HUGE proponent of proactive boards for green devotion decks (I just feel like the mechanic fits these types of decks better); but Gutteral Response can be quite a blowout. They just generally don't expect you to have an answer without blue at instant speed. I don't play them currently (I play white right now; so I have a very proactive, enchantment heavy board); but I could totally see someone playing a G/R deck using this card and finding very big advantages....that; and being able to hold up 1-mana to ensure your Genesis Wave is cast seems more than worth it...I think it is definitely worth a try in a G/R-only deck for sure...and maybe even worth it outside of these (especially in combo-heavy decks that want to make sure their big spells are cast).
Cavern of Souls is something I've found to be amazingly powerful vs. Control decks; however this isn't something that works in every build. Unfortunately, I've had very little success with Boseiju, Who Shelters All....I almost feel like to make that card effective enough (as you only run one) is to play some combination of Primeval Titan, Sylvan Scrying, and/or Knight of the Reliquary to tutor for it...I just seemed to have it when I didn't need it, wanted it when I didn't have it, etc. I think it does have something to do with the deck styles I play, however. I tend to play quite "fast" decks; so even drawing it on turn 3-4 may not be useful (as I have to wait a turn for it to untap). That could be an important point to my limited success/non-use of the card. I'm sure others have had a little more success with it than I have...who knows; maybe it's worth playing two copies...
I have to agree. It seems as though young pyromancer has performed for other players. I never had much sucess with pyromancer when I played with it, but you can't argue with results. They are great cards and have great synergy together. I'm sorry to say I can't help you with the sideboarding with it because I don't play the card very much.
I have always found that running young pyromancer and swiftspear in the same deck basically forced the remainder of the to be a ton of cantrips, small burn spells, etc. I just didn't feel comfortable playing that way. It obviously works most of the time, but as could be seen in Ivan Floch's match, if you run up against a deck with powerful cards or a small amount of life gain, it becomes extremely hard to win. I think the lack of jund, lingering souls, pryoclasm/anger decks like control/GR Trom, etc has lead to UR delver being over represented and possibly over performing. With that said, there was only one delver deck in the top 8 in Milan (Temur Delver) and it was the only deck in the top 8 with treasure cruise. It may be due to most players in Milan being prepared to face UR Delver deck. If the #1 seed junk deck from Milan picks up, the base UR delver decks will have to adjust, but again this is if the junk/jund builds pick up. They are very susceptible to treasure cruise which has lead to their demise. Who knows what will happen? All I know is that I don't know
I'm going to have to test more with young pyro and swiftspear, but I still think my build is the best build for me. I would like to see the makeup of the other Jeskai Delver builds in Milan. Are there any decklists other than the top 8 listed anywhere?
It seems like it is a great card in the right decks. I just haven't played it much so I'd love to hear about it, synergies with other cards, fun examples of it in play, etc.
Yeah...Pendlehaven may not be worth it. I just started testing it more heavily lately. Of course, it's far more beneficial in an Elf build. I've just found in an environment filled with Forked Bolts, Searing Blood, Gut Shot, Electrolyze, Magma Jets, Pillar of Flame, etc. it has actually been beneficial for me in more cases than I originally anticipated (allowing me to keep the tempo going in some cases). This, however, is pretty "timing dependent" and could be coincidence (haven't tested it enough to consider any real trend). If in the long run I run into too many games where I miss a Utopia Sprawl enchantment I will probably drop it. It's going to take WAY more testing than I've done now.
I was just trying to think of some green-only utility lands (as utility lands can be extremely useful) in decks that can generate tons of mana. The only ones I could think of where Treetop Village, Pendlehaven, Mutavault, Cavern of Souls, and Mosswort Bridge. Mutavault seemed out (because with Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra you don't want ANY non-green mana). The list doesn't have enough "cross tribal types" (i.e. a few Hydra's, multiple Elementals, etc.) to make Cavern worth. Both Treetop Village and Mosswort Bridge come into play tapped; so I wasn't sure how important tempo was to the built (and/or if you ever had more mana than you needed). That left only Pendlehaven (as it is a green land that doesn't come into play tapped
As an aside (i.e. more of an "overall statement")...it seems like Mosswort bridge may work well in some of the Stompy builds (as in many cases; the turn you play it you will be able to play the "free" card). Ugh....so many fun cards to play with and so little room!!!!
Please keep us informed as to what changes (if any) you make in the future, any testing/playing results, etc. Cool list! Thanks for posting it!
Yeah...both Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra are definitely "must deal with" cards! You are absolutely right that your build most likely destroys any "fair"/midrange deck
There have been a few lists on here that have played Lotus Cobra; but you are right that it hasn't been heavily represented here. It seems to work best in two types of Devotion decks. The first is "Stompy" Builds with several fetches, and the second is some "Silver Bullet" builds that run Knight of the Reliquary and/or Primeval Titan (as they have strong synergy).
It is one of those cards that only fits in certain builds though. This is mainly due to the fact that it is a 2-drop mana generator vs. the many 1-drops like Birds, Utopia Sprawl, Noble Hierarch, Arbor Elf, Elvish Mystic, etc. There's no doubt it can end up making more mana than the others (assuming you have the cards to support it); but it does take some "build around me" forethought. Kinda the same problem Sylvan Caryatid has (great mana source, but 2-drop). There are certainly decks (such as yours) where it is well worth the extra 1-mana (as it can get crazy how much mana it can produce). Your list/discussion will also help others see the benefits it can have in decks/during games.
Neat list! Extremely solid. In all honesty, you really aren't ever going to find a deck that is good against everything in game one. There will always be a few poor match-ups. It's part of what makes Magic great (no one deck is great against everything). You're in a great place, because you know exactly what your toughest match up is; so you can side against it. It's very important that decks be looked at as 75 cards over 3 games rather than 60 over 1. In terms of Tron being the worst match-up; you are most likely going to want a little land destruction/mana denial in your board. Damocles69 is exactly right that Beast Within and Ghost Quarter are great options. You've also already got some red splashed, so other great options are Stone Rain and Blood Moon...Blood Moon will shut them (as well as a good amount of other decks); so I would certainly try that out (since you run 9 forests, you should be fine getting to the 2-3 forests you'd need long-term).
As a more "traditional" devotion deck (I only mean that you run Genesis Wave and the Primal/Witness lock as well as Chord) you most likely have no problems at all against any fair decks, are pretty strong against Pod, and even are good against Burn (especially with Primal Command's +7 life). You're only issues (or bad match ups) would be things like Tron, Twin, Ad Nauseum, Asendancy, Storm, etc. Basically, just super fast "combo" decks. That is perfectly fine. You can simply board things like Blood Moon, Choke/Boil, Stone Rain, etc. In Green/Red; I feel like a land destruction/mana denial strategy is one of the better ways to slow down combo decks while still playing your game (as you don't have access to white or Thoughtsieze)
But that is just boarding for tougher match-ups. Like I said; you are in a great place as you've tested enough to know where you're more difficult match-ups are. The list looks extremely solid; with no real "week" cards (i.e. every card is an efficient use of the mana with a ton of resiliency via Thrun, Strangleroot, etc. and card draw via Eternal Witness, Visionary, Wave, Selkie, etc.). Great list. With a good mana denial package and maybe a few Bonfires; you should have a pretty good 3-game match up against a good majority of the meta!
I've been singing Coiling Oracle's praises for quite some time now. In my opinion, if you're splashing blue; you should be playing Coiling Oracle...but I also am very biased to the card (as I generally play Elf/Druid builds and he is both, while ramping, while drawing, while adding 1-devotion...so if there's a vote, I vote "yay" for Coiling Oracle
The Forbidden Orchard / Beck combo seems extremely cute; but it fixes your mana at the same time; so there may be enough there...it is very scary to give your opponent 1/1 flyers more than once in a game; but if you are running four Becks; it may be worth it. It's definitely a really cool and smart find.
Nettle Sentinel (in my opinion) is really only a useful card if you go the full "Elf Combo" route. The synergy it has with Heritage Druid, Intruder Alarm, Cloudstone Curio, etc. is awesome; but unless you are planning on going full combo I'm not sure if you're not better off with just another mana dork. I could be very wrong though. I'd love to hear other's thoughts on it.
Murkfiend Leige is a cool idea. Especially if you're running cards like Coiling Oracle or even Wisful Selkie.
There are some GREAT synergies here! I'd love to hear more about it, see your list, etc. I really think you could build something out of all of these ideas.
I just look at all options...in all honesty; I've yet to find it as strong as the other elf builds thus far. Could be my breweing; but it just seems a little too fragile (and too many pieces to get to the combo. The eschew the fatties and/or genesis spells for Cloudstone Curio, Intruder Alarm, etc. (which are bad top decks in may cases). I just wanted to know if anyone had tried it out yet or found the "perfect balance" that I had yet to find. I read their primer and discussion and was going to mention Nykthos and devotion (as I didn't actually see they were running it in any of their lists/discussions). I'll have to re-read it.
I agree. Bonfire's would be unreal in that build. I feel like Bonfire is a "stompy" staple. This is a great Stompy version! When I first started playing devotion, I pretty much used Primalcrux and Khalni Hydra in nearly every build. Khalni Hydra is AWESOME in Elf builds (because he generally will only cost four mana which your elves can produce (so basically each elf becomes a mana "dork" that can tap for GG for him)...He was a staple of my first "infinite combo" elf deck (that used Elvish Archdruid and Umbral Mantle) to get infinite mana and infinitely large Genesis Waves and/or infinitely large elves. Honestly, having seen your list, I may need to re-address Khalni Hydra. And Primalcrux is the grandfather of devotion (chroma); and he just feels like he should be in devotion decks
I'm NOT saying this is a problem with your list by any means; but the issue(s) I ran into when playing Primalcrux and/or Khalni Hydra were that I didn't always have all green mana to cast them. I felt that splashing another color, and utilizing lands like Kessig Wolf Run and Cavern of Souls added such huge advantages to the deck that I found I often had 6-mana; but only 5 of it was Green...also, the fact that both could be "path-ed" the second I cast them (using 6-8 mana). If you stick solely to green lands; however, this is not a huge issue.
Just as an aside, one card I found REALLY powerful that doesn't see a ton of play but is awesome in very devotion-centric decks like this is Aspect of Hydra. Especially once you have a Primalcrux or Khalni Hydra out, being able to pat 1 green at instant speed to pump any creature by +8/+8 or more (or just effectively doubling Primalcrux's power) is well worth a 1-of spot in a devotion-heavy Stompy build. I do understand, however, that both Aspect of Hydra and Bonfire may take away from your Primal Surge, however; so that would be a trade off you'd have to see which worked out best over a dozens/hundreds of games.
GREAT deck! It's straight-forward; but it takes advantage of the devotion mechanic in a great way! I was hoping to see a few more Stompy builds pop up; and this is a great one!
*You could get away with playing one Pendlehaven...it doesn't come into play tapped, taps for green mana, and can pump one of your 1/1's (which can be nice in this environment of forked bolts, electrolyzes, gut shots, etc. I've been playing it lately and loving it (although I have a lot more 1/1's than you). Just seems like a potential upside with very little downside in your build. Also, a 1-of Treetop Village could be more beneficial than hurtful (i.e. where you need the 1-mana that turn). The treetop has far more negative potential; however more upside as well*
GREAT DECK!! Let us know how it performs and/or any evolutions of the deck.
Good points. I play one of those as well. I got tired of WUR, UWR RWU, America, Merica, etc. Jeskai makes it easy. I won't fault anyone for calling it WUR, but I have officially converted
More testing notes to follow.
1. An "Elf Combo" version with cards such as either Intruder Alarm, Nettle Sentinel, and/or Cloudstone Curio (with 1-of Essence Warden for Infinte Life, Joraga Warcaller for infinite pump, etc). Off of a Genesis Wave; you have a very good chance of hitting an infinite combo. Can it be better than a general "Combo Elf" deck (with Beck/Call, etc.)? I think there are definite possibilities of simply incorporating devotion/wave into the "Elf Combo" deck. I've also worked a little with Master Biomancer (mini-synergy with Joraga Warcaller, etc.) in an "Elf Combo" build. I haven't tested it enough to call it a "tuned list" but I'll post it the second I do.
2. A few more "Stompy" versions of the deck. Pedros has already taken the reins here; so I'm excited to see his list and see him kind of "lead the way" on the Elf Core Stompy deck (as he has a really good grasp on it). I'd love to see other decks though; and I will continue to see if we can tune a better version of this deck. Cards I feel could be good are Garruk Caller of Beasts and/or Fauna Shaman.
Of course, I will add the lists/ideas/playtests to the "mini-primer" as I play/tune them. I'm excited to see all the great green brewers on here continue to build awesome decks (Toolbox versions, Stompy versions, Primal Command / "Traditional" versions, etc.). I feel like (thanks to Gnuhouse starting this primer), we have been able to kind of "narrow" what can make a viable Green Devotion deck; and we're getting very close to the point where we will begin posting results to get our favorite archetype into the "top tier" of the meta. Having said this, there will always be new cards and ideas...which is what makes Magic great! I can't wait to see some of the new brews; and more importantly now I can't wait to see more and more green devotion decks played in Dailies and tourneys...