I replaced the Village Bell Ringer with Nettle Sentinel in testing (as well as one Elvish Visionary, but I'm not certain about this) to see if it may be an improvement. I still have a lot of testing to do to see if they need to replace any other cards; but I do think it may be a long-term improvement (i.e. while Village Bell Ringer is obviously more "explosive"...in a majority of cases Nettle Sentinel will be far more playable and smooth lines out).
One REALLY COOL interaction is being able to tap everyone out that has no summoning sickness and then waving into a Mirror Entity and Bear Umbra....put the Umbra on Nettle (he untaps due to the Genesis Wave being cast) and attack!
Thanks for pointing this out. It's a card I've played with a thousand times in the past; but I've always looked at it as "needing" 4x Heritage Druid and 4x Nettle Sentinel to be used (which turned me off to it) and I honestly didn't know what I could cut. There are arguments for putting it in other cards slots; but I'm pretty comfortable with the deck as is. The updated list is:
If anyone else is playing an Elf Devotion build (even if it's not "combo" or doesn't utilize Genesis Wave); I'd love to see it and hear bow it plays out.
If bannings happen in January then I think the Modern GP In Vancouver is going to be a fascinating metagame.
Regardless of that I think we need to consider how we can strengthen our various versions to be the best they can be, understand our weaknesses (and which ones we consider should be allowable, because quite frankly, you can't beat them all pre-board) and our strengths, and innovate as appropriate.
I'll use the example of MG Infect i've been testing against. I don't particularly expect to be side boarding anything specifically against this deck. It's probably not a large enough amount of the metagame that I need to worry about it, and its also capable of winning on T2 so that if you keep even a slightly slow hand, it can ruin you (that said, the longer the game goes the more favoured we become)
Now whilst I'm not intending to board solutions for Infect, the Inkmoth Nexus that they run *is* somewhat troublesome (as I can't decay it) However, if I look at the Tron matchup and other key man lands in the format I, am already considering a deck alteration/board tech to deal with these, so one more occurrence of an issue I need to deal with strengthens the argument for finding the solution, as this solution then becomes live against a wider variety of decks.
I think a lot of these answers we can innovate, test and share, but I also think sometimes you just need to be comfortable with your own choices, or at least thoroughly test the choices made by others to ensure it works for you.
^^^ This ^^^
This is especially true for Brewers who test only game-1's. I used to do this a lot. Trying to make the "perfect" deck that had main board answers for everything. Brad Nelson (I believe) put it best when he said you can get "too far down the rabbit hole". It ends up muddling the deck. All we can do is build our deck to be its best in its archetype and be very aware of its weaknesses and how to play/board around them.
The biggest reason I don't have nettle sentinel in the list is not the best excuse...I didn't know what to cut in its place :). Everything else seemed too important to cut for 3 Nettle Sentinels (at I assumed if I added them I'd want at least 3). I could be wrong on that front.
I have to have the card-draw that Oracle, Visionary, a. Growth, and even Gilt-Leaf provide and I was worried if I removed Nissa and Bell-Ringer (probably the two easiest removals for Nettle) that I would become a little too "linear" and (a) would leave myself extremely open to board wipes, (b) would be removing several "Untap" options (although they untap and can re-tap IF you have heritage Druid in play), and (c) would have great difficulties against any more fair match-ups (as in a lot of those matchups oddly Nissa and Nyla become the Allstars). Having said this, though; all of my thoughts were "in theory". I oh tested with nettle (in terms of devotion builds) for a brief period (and that was months ago). I'll definitely give it a try and let you know what I find.
Also, anyone else building an elf list; let us know if you use nettle sentinel and if you like it! I'll give it a try today and let you know (a) what I took out and (b) how it performed. Good idea!
That's nearly card for card what I will be testing. That deck looks awesome. It will be tough to beat out my current version, but that list looks really good. I still have to have at least one Geist in my deck though :).
I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties Thewrush...the meta has shifted so quickly! I think you honestly can go whichever way fits your playstyle best; but I think you have to either be super disruptive or super fast.
It kind of sucks, as the new meta has sorta "pushed out" a lot of really great decks and until/if/when they ban either Jeskai Ascendancy and/or Treasure Cruise...we're kinda stuck without true "midrange" decks (or rather, midrange decks just have to be far more disruptive with a few less threats than before). "Fair" decks are becoming far less prevalent (which are the decks that most green devotion decks absolutely destroyed). Hell, it's getting to a point where even POD decks (at least in their current incarnations) are starting to feel "too slow" for the format!
It's definitely true that some of the new meta shifts have been tough on green devotion builds. I agree with a vast majority of Picelli89 stated (other than the "this deck will never be a contender); but I honestly think we can be fast enough for the meta with the right changes. In the history of Green Devotion, the very early popular versions of Green Devotion (the ones that ran Genesis Wave, Burning-Tree Emissaries, Primal Command/Eternal Witness sets, and a few Primeval Titans) were meant to be "turn-4" decks. There are some interesting videos and article(s) from Michael Jacobs outlining the deck and interactions. His devotion deck evolved a bit over time (less BTE's, added Abundnat Growth, etc.) to build up a little more card draw; but he tried to maintain the speed of the deck. Of course, the archetype has evolved since then; but having said this; speed was still considered an advantage of the archeytpe initially. I have since built an "Elf Version" with an emphasis on speed; and I believe the archetype can keep up with many of the fastest decks in the format.
I do also think there is a "disruptive" build out there that many on here have been perfecting (with some assortment of white, red, and/or black splashes) that utilizes Chord, removal spells, Primal Command, and land removal/disruption to keep the opponent from their game plan while building to lethal damage. I can't speak to that deck too much, but there are a few brewers on here working on it now who could provide great advise. I can't wait to see how that deck evolves to meet the current meta; but I do think it will be a viable deck.
If you did prefer to go the "speed/combo" route, I can help on the fast/overwhelming front (if that is the playstyle you prefer). I've been on a little "testing spree" lately with a version of the "Elf" deck. It is a slightly odd looking list on the face of it; but I promise it can be quite fast and pretty explosive.
to p
As an aside, I'm finishing up my "testing write up" with the new version. While I don't traditionally provide turn-by-turn analysis (it's more of "this is how to play against the deck, what I side in/out, etc.); I thought I'd provide one example here to both (a) show an example of how devotion can be used when focused on "speed/combo" and (b) it helps to show how the deck works (as it can be really tough just looking at the list to get a feel for how the deck can play out in real life and how the cards can be cast quickly). Here is an example from a game I played against Twin Exarch (now with Dig Trough Time) this afternoon where I was on the draw:
Turn one - Opponent plays tapped Steam Vents, passes turn.
Turn One - Cards in Hand = 8 Devotion = 0
1. Play Temple Garden
2. Cast Arbor Elf
Opponent plays an Island, bolts my Arbor Elf and passes turn.
Turn Two - Cards in Hand = 7 Devotion = 0
1. Play Forest
2. Tap Temple Garden, play Utopia Sprawl on Forest (color blue)
3. Tap Utopia Forest, cast Coiling Oracle. Reveals Misty Rainforest which comes into play.
4. Tap & Sac Misty to fetch Forest. Tap Forest, cast Abundant Growth enchanting same Forest (draw a card)
Opponent plays Island, casts Serum Visions and Gitaxian Probe.
Turn Three - Cards in Hand = 5 Devotion = 3
1. Play Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2. Tap Forest, cast Heritage Druid.
3. Tap Utopia Forest, Cast Elvish Visionary (draw a card)
4. Tap all three elves, Trigger Nykthos for X = 5
5. Cast Garruk Wildspeaker (floating 1-green mana)
6. Untap Utopia Forest and Nykthos (now have Utopia Forest, Nykthos, remaining untapped Temple Garden and 1 floating mana)
7. Re-trigger Nykthos with Utopia Forest for 7-green mana.
8. Tap Temple Garden and use extra 1-mana to Cast Genesis Wave for X = 6. This reveals:
a. Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
b. Cavern of Souls
c. Bear Umbra (enchanting Elvish Visionary)
d. Nissa Worldwaker
e. Coiling Oracle
f. Abundant Growth
9. Draw a card off of the Gilt-Leaf Archdruid Trigger (for Coiling Oracle "druid) and draw off of Oracle trigger (not a land this time) as well as Abundant Growth. 4 cards in hand.
10. +1 Nissa Revane to untap Utopia Forest, Forest, & Temple Garden
11. Tap Cavern, Temple Garden, and Forest to cast Village Bell Ringer (untapping all creatures)
12. Cast Arbor Elf in Hand (draw a card from Gilt-Leaf Trigger).
12. Move to attacks, attack with Elvish Visionary (untapping all lands)
13. Re-Trigger Nykthos with Utopia Forest for 16 green mana.
14. Cast Heritage Druid (draw a card)
15. Tap Temple Garden, Cast Mirror Entity (draw a card as technically it is a druid and triggers Gilt-Leaf's draw trigger)
At this point I could have kept casting cards as I have plenty of mana and cards (as well as another Genesis Wave); however I instead triggered Mirror Entity's ability for X=10 (just a random number above 3 for OCD reasons just in case he had a second bolt that he hadn't cast for some unknown reason This, however, turns all of the creatures into "druids" and thus I tapped 7 of the remaining 8 untapped "druids" stealing all three of the opponent's lands. He then forfeit the game.
In game two I had a turn 2 Choke that effectively ended the game (although I did not do lethal damage until turn 5).
We can still beat decks like Burn, Delver, and Twin Exarch (and even Ascendancy) with with Cruise and Dig available. We just either have to be super fast or super disruptive. We can be super fast, we just have to take advantage of how much mana devotion can build by utilizing it to (a) draw cards and (b) untap mana sources. We only get 3-4 turns now; so instead of ramping into something a single big threat that the opponent can remove; we instead have to "ramp" into a bunch of little things that continue "the engine" until they find a way to overwhelm the opponent. Basically, we have to cram 4-6 turns into 3-4 turns The disruptive side instead kinda "stretches" the game by keeping the opponent from doing what they want to do and "time walking" them by putting important permanents/lands back on top of their deck.
So while our choices have been kinda "narrowed" a bit; I think we can still play green devotion in Modern and perform well in the meta. I'm excited to see where others are going with it!
** P.S. I apologize if the turn-by-turn example is a little difficult to read, is confusing, or there is a question with the exact sequencing. I tend to write pretty fast and abbreviate (and often fill it out after a game so as not to delay my opponent) during testing; so it may sound a little odd when I go back and try to write out turns in full. I tend to be far more interested in actual Win/Loss, side-boarding, etc. than actual turn-by-turn results; so I apologize in advance for the confusing nature of it when written out. I just wanted to provide a game play example rather than just the list for those who haven't played the deck. **
Look forward to everyone else's new lists and results!!!!
the more and more i continue to work on this deck. the more and more i ask myself "why dont i just play pod"?
Haha! Sometimes that ends up being the final answer...if your brewing gets closer and closer to a proven list; it can be better to just play the "work horse". But, is there a Pod deck that could be even better? Can Pod take advantage of Nykthos/devotion (Strangleroot geist seems crazy good, kitchen finks is great for devotion as a resilient 2-devotion, wistful Selkie comes in with 3-devotion and draws a card, etc.) I haven't read into Pod brewing and ideas; but it's definitely worth looking into. And if you decide, "can't beat it; join it" that's ok too!
UGH. I wrote this all out once and lost it, so this will be a less fun version than the original (which was filled with light hearted wit and humour... but you'll have to trust me that it was funny... )
I had a horrible day of unfortunate events yesterday the last of which resulted in me dropping from FNM after turn 3 of Round 1 (Long story, not going to bore you with it all)
However, it *did* give me some interesting insights (even though it was only two turns)
Was playing against Storm, and I think I had him on the ropes.
I'd amended me sideboard to include more spot removal, and my mainboard had taken out the ulvenwald tracker, added back in the magus of the moon, and also added a fulminator mage. and one more mainboard abrupt decay (for a total of three)
this story though, belongs to Fulminator Mage.
turn 1 was arbor elf
turn 2 was sprawl (set to black) plus garruk (making a beast)
turn 3 was primal command fetching fulminator mage and bouncing his shock land to the top of his library, casting fulminator mage, destroying his shivan reef, and casting an eternal witness (retrieving Fulminator mage)
his turn 3 I received a family emergency phone call which meant I had to leave (thankfully everyone is ok). We both agreed that if he couldn't have pulled a win out on his turn 3 he was in a really tough spot (as his only land would have been going on my next turn in addition to swinging for at least enough to drop him close to 6-7 life)
My previous post was full of some more subtle nuances about the game and selections, but the bottom line is this.
3 turns is Simply NOWHERE near enough to judge fulminator mage a successful addition.
Avalanche riders may yet be a better option.
FM + is a three drop get's itself immediately into the graveyard ready for recursion
AR have haste, dont die to remove the land, can remove basics, and *can* get themselves in the yard for recursion by deliberately not paying the echo cost.
However, this gives us maindeck outs to tron, and pesky man-lands (specifically inkmoth nexus) as well as other uses...
I see a lot of promise.
It will now be another two weeks before I get a crack at some Modern, so I'll just dive back into testing vs the proxy decks G1's and report back as and when I have some results...
I HATE when that happens! I had it happen on two different occasions, and since I'm somewhat OCD, I now left click, Select All, and Copy like every minute or two when I'm typing...it's awful because the first draft is always the best; and it feels like once you've written it, it's "gone".
Nevertheless, it was really interesting to see your play by play. Shows the power of what Primal Command can do (and this is coming from someone who doesn't play the card It is interesting that with Primal Command that you can build kind of a main-board strategy of Land Destruction. LD can be super powerful, and if you've got Commands, Fulminator Mage (or Riders), and maybe even Plow Under; you could very well hold them off until you've built your win-con. This is a really interesting direction to go in the current meta (slowing it down so you can put the game in your favor). Thanks for posting this!
Glad to hear the emergency ended up with positive outcome too. Excited to see your next set of results!
Thanks guyterto and fargsby. These are the kind of lists I was interested in seeing results from. I'm going to try a more aggro version just to see how it feels. I love Geist and Boros Charm so I will have to squeeze a few in, but I love the 3 pierces.
Sasky- I think Engineered Explosives is a must have in our board. It's amazing. However, I don't run young Pyromancer or monastery swiftspear so I have very few 1 and 2 drop permanents in the deck, especially after delver flips.
Hibernation has also been good for me, but I see fewer pod and junk decks now with everyone digging and cruising.
Aven Mindscensor is also great against Valakut and pod and also hoses the opponents fetches. I run one main and am thinking about an additional one.
I just purchased two Meddling Mage judge foils to possibly board and wanted to ask if anyone has had any experience with him. Can you elaborate on if it has been a winner in your board or just ok. I'm going to test it but would love to hear what other WUR delver players think. Another plus about WUR is the amazing sideboard options. Good luck with the board.
All WUR delver team members- Valanarch brought up a topic I wanted to ask about. I, like him, have a deck that runs geists and no young p or swiftspear. I run one four drop (Chandra) and five total three drops (3 Geist, 1 V. clique, 1 Aven Mindsensor). Along with 3 Snapcasters and 4 Delvers, that's the creature base. I run 21 lands with 61 cards (I have always played 61 for superstitious reasons).
I was wondering how many people run Monastery Swiftspear and/or Young Pyromancer or an aggressive build? How many run a more midrange build with Geist and V. Clique? I love the fact that this deck can be built in so many ways. I have discussed in the past the different types of WUR Delver lists, but I am always intrigued as to why people play the builds they play (meta, play style, etc.). I prefer the Geist build but am always tinkering to find the "best" build for me. The more midrange build fits my play style and my meta is very diverse so it suits my area.
On a final note, I have been running Dig over cruise in my list and it has been amazing. At first I played cruise and it too is amazing, but dig seems to fit my build. You really can't go wrong unless you play neither. I was wondering if other players are running dig over cruise or running both?
On a side note, I have heard rumors that Narset might be a planeswalker in a later set so I assume she would fit right into our deck (depending on casting cost), but I won't discuss that further because there are other threads for speculation.
Ah! I forgot...I don't know if you're running 4x Garruk Wildspeaker...but if you're not; it sounds like one of the only few problems your deck could ever run into is burning through your hand a little quick. I would think that Garruk, Caller of Beasts may be a great way to "refill" your hand in those situations where maybe they can board-wipe or disrupt you down to where you can't Chord effectively.
That, and Mark of Asylum in the board if you're running white
currently retooling the deck. to slow for current meta. visonary is testing way better than Eidolon of Blossoms. need to rework the whole deck
I can't wait to see it! It's gonna be an awesome build.
I am biased, but I'm glad to hear Elvish Visionary has tested well. I've really loved all of the permanents that replace themselves (Visionary, Oracle, Abundant Growth, etc.). They really push you ahead by increasing your devotion (which in turn will generate mana in the following turn or maybe even the same turn) without depleting your hand. The tough part is finding the perfect balance between drawing & mana generation (i.e. "support cards") and "power" cards /win-cons. It's really helpful if you can make the support cards be viable win-cons if possible. Cards like Mirror Entity, Garruk Wildspeaker's Ultimate, Craterhoof Behemoth, Ezuri (in elf builds), Kessig Wolf Run, and even Nylea's "pump" ability can make either your small army (or one small creature) very large threats with a good amount of mana.
These are just a few thoughts though. You've already posted several great ideas; so the deck is gonna be a great one. I was one of the people that loved the idea of Eidolon of Blossoms. I couldn't make it work fast enough; but I thought there had to be a build out there (and still think there probably is). I wish she were a three-drop! I recently had to "cut" Elvish Archdruid for the time being to speed up my deck (and he is one of my favorite cards ever). Sucks when the meta gets to a crazy-fast point because it "kills" half of the really fun cards to play.
Good luck with your new build! I'm excited to see it when you've got the rough draft ready (and to see how it progresses).
i honestly love Eidolon. probably my favorite card in the deck. gassing up after a huge wave was the best feeling ever.
you are completely right on the CC. if it coasted 3G it would be perfect... i wish they pushed this card just a little bit more . honestly i wish they coasted it at 2G but that would be bonkers lol.
with chord of calling and the 2 coursers i am running visionary is just better. she can come down turn 2 with a SRG netting me 3 devotion and a card as well as helping too convoke a bullet via chord. with courser giving me prefect knowledge of the top of my deck she gets crazy.
a totally unexpected side effect; chord has sped the deck up for me! running 6 1drop creatures and 8 2drops has enabled me to chord for a fatal craterhoof turn 3/4 waaay more consistently than i ever could in the g-wave version. of course, having said this "dies to removal" is way more of a thing running so many 1/1s. electrolyze and izzet staticaster are a kick in the teeth
Yeah...the "dies to "ping" can be an issue. The trick is simply to throw more at them than they can ping away. If you put out 5 1/1's and three of them draw a card right back, even if they Electrolyze you still have tons of resources left.
That's GREAT that the Chord's sped the deck up! I LOVED chord when I played it in the Elf deck (as it makes Elvish Visionary and Coiling Oracle that much more useful) It is kind of like Heritage druid in that way (you can instant-speed use them as mana). Even if it is a little less resilient; as long as you've built in more card advantage and have sped the deck up; you're gonna be in a better place in the current meta. It sounds like you have found some really amazing synergy already! That's awesome. It's always great when things start comingn together quickly.
And I agree on Eidolon. She is SOOOO cool. I traditionally run Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growths (which drew 2-cards due to its own trigger and Eidolon)...I just didn't give it enough time. You'd think with Nylea, Courser, etc. and the cards above that there HAS to be a deck out there. But don't worry about that now. It sounds like you are definitely on the right track where you're going!
I'm excited to hear more about it and to see your first-draft list (as of course you'll continue to tune it as you go). Glad to hear things are going well!
I don't play the deck, but my opponent in the final of my weekly modern tournament did play it, and had 3-0ed a bunch of T1 decks (Scapeshift, Twin, ...).
That's great news! If you can beat Scapeshift and Twin handily; you got a viable deck. Strangleroot Geist and Wilstful Selkie...that is a LOT of devotion. I'd love to hear if someone has a list like this. You're right. It sounds like a the "traditional" Genesis Wave builds with a little "Stompy" vibe. Seems like a really cool Genesis Build (as Selkie is AMAZING in Gen-Wave builds as it's a "cycle-r" and adds three devotion for a huge wave. I love the idea of Strangleroot too for maintaining a high amount of devotion (that, and it's just an unreal devotion card).
Do you remember if the deck's high end was Primeval Titan, Craterhoof Behemeoth, etc.? I know you didn't play the deck, and I can't thank you enough for posting here about it (so you may not know a ton about the deck); but it would be interesting to know what win-cons they used. I'm assuming Prime Time, Craterhoof, and Kessig Wolf Run; but you never know...could be something we're not thinking of
currently retooling the deck. to slow for current meta. visonary is testing way better than Eidolon of Blossoms. need to rework the whole deck
I can't wait to see it! It's gonna be an awesome build.
I am biased, but I'm glad to hear Elvish Visionary has tested well. I've really loved all of the permanents that replace themselves (Visionary, Oracle, Abundant Growth, etc.). They really push you ahead by increasing your devotion (which in turn will generate mana in the following turn or maybe even the same turn) without depleting your hand. The tough part is finding the perfect balance between drawing & mana generation (i.e. "support cards") and "power" cards /win-cons. It's really helpful if you can make the support cards be viable win-cons if possible. Cards like Mirror Entity, Garruk Wildspeaker's Ultimate, Craterhoof Behemoth, Ezuri (in elf builds), Kessig Wolf Run, and even Nylea's "pump" ability can make either your small army (or one small creature) very large threats with a good amount of mana.
These are just a few thoughts though. You've already posted several great ideas; so the deck is gonna be a great one. I was one of the people that loved the idea of Eidolon of Blossoms. I couldn't make it work fast enough; but I thought there had to be a build out there (and still think there probably is). I wish she were a three-drop! I recently had to "cut" Elvish Archdruid for the time being to speed up my deck (and he is one of my favorite cards ever). Sucks when the meta gets to a crazy-fast point because it "kills" half of the really fun cards to play.
Good luck with your new build! I'm excited to see it when you've got the rough draft ready (and to see how it progresses).
I've just seen Jurassic Park, and one particular quote from Dr.Malcolm (who would no doubt be a Green Mage too) found a place in my heart, and wanted to share it with you:
“Because the history of evolution is that life escapes all barriers. Life breaks free. Life expands to new territories. Painfully, perhaps even dangerously. But life finds a way.” ― Michael Crichton, Jurassic Park
So, yeah, let's break free and find a way to make Green Devotion in Modern survive and evolve.
Keep the ideas, testing and spirit coming! Discussion here is proving both inspiring and challenging.
I replaced the Village Bell Ringer with Nettle Sentinel in testing (as well as one Elvish Visionary, but I'm not certain about this) to see if it may be an improvement. I still have a lot of testing to do to see if they need to replace any other cards; but I do think it may be a long-term improvement (i.e. while Village Bell Ringer is obviously more "explosive"...in a majority of cases Nettle Sentinel will be far more playable and smooth lines out).
One REALLY COOL interaction is being able to tap everyone out that has no summoning sickness and then waving into a Mirror Entity and Bear Umbra....put the Umbra on Nettle (he untaps due to the Genesis Wave being cast) and attack!
Thanks for pointing this out. It's a card I've played with a thousand times in the past; but I've always looked at it as "needing" 4x Heritage Druid and 4x Nettle Sentinel to be used (which turned me off to it) and I honestly didn't know what I could cut. There are arguments for putting it in other cards slots; but I'm pretty comfortable with the deck as is. The updated list is:
4 Arbor Elf
3 Heritage Druid
2 Nettle Sentinel
4 Coiling Oracle
3 Elvish Visionary
2 Mirror Entity
2 Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
1 Nylea, God of the Hunt
Enchantments
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Abundant Growth
2 Bear Umbra
4 Garruk Wildspeaker
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
Instant/Sorcery
4 Genesis Wave
Lands
6 Forest
3 Cavern of Souls
3 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Mark of Asylum
2 Choke
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Beast Within
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
If anyone else is playing an Elf Devotion build (even if it's not "combo" or doesn't utilize Genesis Wave); I'd love to see it and hear bow it plays out.
^^^ This ^^^
This is especially true for Brewers who test only game-1's. I used to do this a lot. Trying to make the "perfect" deck that had main board answers for everything. Brad Nelson (I believe) put it best when he said you can get "too far down the rabbit hole". It ends up muddling the deck. All we can do is build our deck to be its best in its archetype and be very aware of its weaknesses and how to play/board around them.
Really well put!! Great point.
The biggest reason I don't have nettle sentinel in the list is not the best excuse...I didn't know what to cut in its place :). Everything else seemed too important to cut for 3 Nettle Sentinels (at I assumed if I added them I'd want at least 3). I could be wrong on that front.
I have to have the card-draw that Oracle, Visionary, a. Growth, and even Gilt-Leaf provide and I was worried if I removed Nissa and Bell-Ringer (probably the two easiest removals for Nettle) that I would become a little too "linear" and (a) would leave myself extremely open to board wipes, (b) would be removing several "Untap" options (although they untap and can re-tap IF you have heritage Druid in play), and (c) would have great difficulties against any more fair match-ups (as in a lot of those matchups oddly Nissa and Nyla become the Allstars). Having said this, though; all of my thoughts were "in theory". I oh tested with nettle (in terms of devotion builds) for a brief period (and that was months ago). I'll definitely give it a try and let you know what I find.
Also, anyone else building an elf list; let us know if you use nettle sentinel and if you like it! I'll give it a try today and let you know (a) what I took out and (b) how it performed. Good idea!
I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties Thewrush...the meta has shifted so quickly! I think you honestly can go whichever way fits your playstyle best; but I think you have to either be super disruptive or super fast.
It kind of sucks, as the new meta has sorta "pushed out" a lot of really great decks and until/if/when they ban either Jeskai Ascendancy and/or Treasure Cruise...we're kinda stuck without true "midrange" decks (or rather, midrange decks just have to be far more disruptive with a few less threats than before). "Fair" decks are becoming far less prevalent (which are the decks that most green devotion decks absolutely destroyed). Hell, it's getting to a point where even POD decks (at least in their current incarnations) are starting to feel "too slow" for the format!
It's definitely true that some of the new meta shifts have been tough on green devotion builds. I agree with a vast majority of Picelli89 stated (other than the "this deck will never be a contender); but I honestly think we can be fast enough for the meta with the right changes. In the history of Green Devotion, the very early popular versions of Green Devotion (the ones that ran Genesis Wave, Burning-Tree Emissaries, Primal Command/Eternal Witness sets, and a few Primeval Titans) were meant to be "turn-4" decks. There are some interesting videos and article(s) from Michael Jacobs outlining the deck and interactions. His devotion deck evolved a bit over time (less BTE's, added Abundnat Growth, etc.) to build up a little more card draw; but he tried to maintain the speed of the deck. Of course, the archetype has evolved since then; but having said this; speed was still considered an advantage of the archeytpe initially. I have since built an "Elf Version" with an emphasis on speed; and I believe the archetype can keep up with many of the fastest decks in the format.
I do also think there is a "disruptive" build out there that many on here have been perfecting (with some assortment of white, red, and/or black splashes) that utilizes Chord, removal spells, Primal Command, and land removal/disruption to keep the opponent from their game plan while building to lethal damage. I can't speak to that deck too much, but there are a few brewers on here working on it now who could provide great advise. I can't wait to see how that deck evolves to meet the current meta; but I do think it will be a viable deck.
If you did prefer to go the "speed/combo" route, I can help on the fast/overwhelming front (if that is the playstyle you prefer). I've been on a little "testing spree" lately with a version of the "Elf" deck. It is a slightly odd looking list on the face of it; but I promise it can be quite fast and pretty explosive.
to p
As an aside, I'm finishing up my "testing write up" with the new version. While I don't traditionally provide turn-by-turn analysis (it's more of "this is how to play against the deck, what I side in/out, etc.); I thought I'd provide one example here to both (a) show an example of how devotion can be used when focused on "speed/combo" and (b) it helps to show how the deck works (as it can be really tough just looking at the list to get a feel for how the deck can play out in real life and how the cards can be cast quickly). Here is an example from a game I played against Twin Exarch (now with Dig Trough Time) this afternoon where I was on the draw:
Turn one - Opponent plays tapped Steam Vents, passes turn.
Turn One - Cards in Hand = 8 Devotion = 0
1. Play Temple Garden
2. Cast Arbor Elf
Opponent plays an Island, bolts my Arbor Elf and passes turn.
Turn Two - Cards in Hand = 7 Devotion = 0
1. Play Forest
2. Tap Temple Garden, play Utopia Sprawl on Forest (color blue)
3. Tap Utopia Forest, cast Coiling Oracle. Reveals Misty Rainforest which comes into play.
4. Tap & Sac Misty to fetch Forest. Tap Forest, cast Abundant Growth enchanting same Forest (draw a card)
Opponent plays Island, casts Serum Visions and Gitaxian Probe.
Turn Three - Cards in Hand = 5 Devotion = 3
1. Play Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2. Tap Forest, cast Heritage Druid.
3. Tap Utopia Forest, Cast Elvish Visionary (draw a card)
4. Tap all three elves, Trigger Nykthos for X = 5
5. Cast Garruk Wildspeaker (floating 1-green mana)
6. Untap Utopia Forest and Nykthos (now have Utopia Forest, Nykthos, remaining untapped Temple Garden and 1 floating mana)
7. Re-trigger Nykthos with Utopia Forest for 7-green mana.
8. Tap Temple Garden and use extra 1-mana to Cast Genesis Wave for X = 6. This reveals:
a. Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
b. Cavern of Souls
c. Bear Umbra (enchanting Elvish Visionary)
d. Nissa Worldwaker
e. Coiling Oracle
f. Abundant Growth
9. Draw a card off of the Gilt-Leaf Archdruid Trigger (for Coiling Oracle "druid) and draw off of Oracle trigger (not a land this time) as well as Abundant Growth. 4 cards in hand.
10. +1 Nissa Revane to untap Utopia Forest, Forest, & Temple Garden
11. Tap Cavern, Temple Garden, and Forest to cast Village Bell Ringer (untapping all creatures)
12. Cast Arbor Elf in Hand (draw a card from Gilt-Leaf Trigger).
12. Move to attacks, attack with Elvish Visionary (untapping all lands)
13. Re-Trigger Nykthos with Utopia Forest for 16 green mana.
14. Cast Heritage Druid (draw a card)
15. Tap Temple Garden, Cast Mirror Entity (draw a card as technically it is a druid and triggers Gilt-Leaf's draw trigger)
At this point I could have kept casting cards as I have plenty of mana and cards (as well as another Genesis Wave); however I instead triggered Mirror Entity's ability for X=10 (just a random number above 3 for OCD reasons just in case he had a second bolt that he hadn't cast for some unknown reason This, however, turns all of the creatures into "druids" and thus I tapped 7 of the remaining 8 untapped "druids" stealing all three of the opponent's lands. He then forfeit the game.
In game two I had a turn 2 Choke that effectively ended the game (although I did not do lethal damage until turn 5).
We can still beat decks like Burn, Delver, and Twin Exarch (and even Ascendancy) with with Cruise and Dig available. We just either have to be super fast or super disruptive. We can be super fast, we just have to take advantage of how much mana devotion can build by utilizing it to (a) draw cards and (b) untap mana sources. We only get 3-4 turns now; so instead of ramping into something a single big threat that the opponent can remove; we instead have to "ramp" into a bunch of little things that continue "the engine" until they find a way to overwhelm the opponent. Basically, we have to cram 4-6 turns into 3-4 turns The disruptive side instead kinda "stretches" the game by keeping the opponent from doing what they want to do and "time walking" them by putting important permanents/lands back on top of their deck.
So while our choices have been kinda "narrowed" a bit; I think we can still play green devotion in Modern and perform well in the meta. I'm excited to see where others are going with it!
** P.S. I apologize if the turn-by-turn example is a little difficult to read, is confusing, or there is a question with the exact sequencing. I tend to write pretty fast and abbreviate (and often fill it out after a game so as not to delay my opponent) during testing; so it may sound a little odd when I go back and try to write out turns in full. I tend to be far more interested in actual Win/Loss, side-boarding, etc. than actual turn-by-turn results; so I apologize in advance for the confusing nature of it when written out. I just wanted to provide a game play example rather than just the list for those who haven't played the deck. **
Look forward to everyone else's new lists and results!!!!
Haha! Sometimes that ends up being the final answer...if your brewing gets closer and closer to a proven list; it can be better to just play the "work horse". But, is there a Pod deck that could be even better? Can Pod take advantage of Nykthos/devotion (Strangleroot geist seems crazy good, kitchen finks is great for devotion as a resilient 2-devotion, wistful Selkie comes in with 3-devotion and draws a card, etc.) I haven't read into Pod brewing and ideas; but it's definitely worth looking into. And if you decide, "can't beat it; join it" that's ok too!
I HATE when that happens! I had it happen on two different occasions, and since I'm somewhat OCD, I now left click, Select All, and Copy like every minute or two when I'm typing...it's awful because the first draft is always the best; and it feels like once you've written it, it's "gone".
Nevertheless, it was really interesting to see your play by play. Shows the power of what Primal Command can do (and this is coming from someone who doesn't play the card It is interesting that with Primal Command that you can build kind of a main-board strategy of Land Destruction. LD can be super powerful, and if you've got Commands, Fulminator Mage (or Riders), and maybe even Plow Under; you could very well hold them off until you've built your win-con. This is a really interesting direction to go in the current meta (slowing it down so you can put the game in your favor). Thanks for posting this!
Glad to hear the emergency ended up with positive outcome too. Excited to see your next set of results!
Hibernation has also been good for me, but I see fewer pod and junk decks now with everyone digging and cruising.
Aven Mindscensor is also great against Valakut and pod and also hoses the opponents fetches. I run one main and am thinking about an additional one.
I just purchased two Meddling Mage judge foils to possibly board and wanted to ask if anyone has had any experience with him. Can you elaborate on if it has been a winner in your board or just ok. I'm going to test it but would love to hear what other WUR delver players think. Another plus about WUR is the amazing sideboard options. Good luck with the board.
All WUR delver team members- Valanarch brought up a topic I wanted to ask about. I, like him, have a deck that runs geists and no young p or swiftspear. I run one four drop (Chandra) and five total three drops (3 Geist, 1 V. clique, 1 Aven Mindsensor). Along with 3 Snapcasters and 4 Delvers, that's the creature base. I run 21 lands with 61 cards (I have always played 61 for superstitious reasons).
I was wondering how many people run Monastery Swiftspear and/or Young Pyromancer or an aggressive build? How many run a more midrange build with Geist and V. Clique? I love the fact that this deck can be built in so many ways. I have discussed in the past the different types of WUR Delver lists, but I am always intrigued as to why people play the builds they play (meta, play style, etc.). I prefer the Geist build but am always tinkering to find the "best" build for me. The more midrange build fits my play style and my meta is very diverse so it suits my area.
On a final note, I have been running Dig over cruise in my list and it has been amazing. At first I played cruise and it too is amazing, but dig seems to fit my build. You really can't go wrong unless you play neither. I was wondering if other players are running dig over cruise or running both?
On a side note, I have heard rumors that Narset might be a planeswalker in a later set so I assume she would fit right into our deck (depending on casting cost), but I won't discuss that further because there are other threads for speculation.
That, and Mark of Asylum in the board if you're running white
But that's all. Good luck!
Yeah...the "dies to "ping" can be an issue. The trick is simply to throw more at them than they can ping away. If you put out 5 1/1's and three of them draw a card right back, even if they Electrolyze you still have tons of resources left.
That's GREAT that the Chord's sped the deck up! I LOVED chord when I played it in the Elf deck (as it makes Elvish Visionary and Coiling Oracle that much more useful) It is kind of like Heritage druid in that way (you can instant-speed use them as mana). Even if it is a little less resilient; as long as you've built in more card advantage and have sped the deck up; you're gonna be in a better place in the current meta. It sounds like you have found some really amazing synergy already! That's awesome. It's always great when things start comingn together quickly.
And I agree on Eidolon. She is SOOOO cool. I traditionally run Utopia Sprawl and Abundant Growths (which drew 2-cards due to its own trigger and Eidolon)...I just didn't give it enough time. You'd think with Nylea, Courser, etc. and the cards above that there HAS to be a deck out there. But don't worry about that now. It sounds like you are definitely on the right track where you're going!
I'm excited to hear more about it and to see your first-draft list (as of course you'll continue to tune it as you go). Glad to hear things are going well!
That's great news! If you can beat Scapeshift and Twin handily; you got a viable deck. Strangleroot Geist and Wilstful Selkie...that is a LOT of devotion. I'd love to hear if someone has a list like this. You're right. It sounds like a the "traditional" Genesis Wave builds with a little "Stompy" vibe. Seems like a really cool Genesis Build (as Selkie is AMAZING in Gen-Wave builds as it's a "cycle-r" and adds three devotion for a huge wave. I love the idea of Strangleroot too for maintaining a high amount of devotion (that, and it's just an unreal devotion card).
Do you remember if the deck's high end was Primeval Titan, Craterhoof Behemeoth, etc.? I know you didn't play the deck, and I can't thank you enough for posting here about it (so you may not know a ton about the deck); but it would be interesting to know what win-cons they used. I'm assuming Prime Time, Craterhoof, and Kessig Wolf Run; but you never know...could be something we're not thinking of
Thanks again for posting this!
I can't wait to see it! It's gonna be an awesome build.
I am biased, but I'm glad to hear Elvish Visionary has tested well. I've really loved all of the permanents that replace themselves (Visionary, Oracle, Abundant Growth, etc.). They really push you ahead by increasing your devotion (which in turn will generate mana in the following turn or maybe even the same turn) without depleting your hand. The tough part is finding the perfect balance between drawing & mana generation (i.e. "support cards") and "power" cards /win-cons. It's really helpful if you can make the support cards be viable win-cons if possible. Cards like Mirror Entity, Garruk Wildspeaker's Ultimate, Craterhoof Behemoth, Ezuri (in elf builds), Kessig Wolf Run, and even Nylea's "pump" ability can make either your small army (or one small creature) very large threats with a good amount of mana.
These are just a few thoughts though. You've already posted several great ideas; so the deck is gonna be a great one. I was one of the people that loved the idea of Eidolon of Blossoms. I couldn't make it work fast enough; but I thought there had to be a build out there (and still think there probably is). I wish she were a three-drop! I recently had to "cut" Elvish Archdruid for the time being to speed up my deck (and he is one of my favorite cards ever). Sucks when the meta gets to a crazy-fast point because it "kills" half of the really fun cards to play.
Good luck with your new build! I'm excited to see it when you've got the rough draft ready (and to see how it progresses).
This is AWESOME...Green mage for life