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  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Hi there, been a long time lurker to green devotion, Moved onto other decks and brew and wanted to give the deck another run since it got some considerable upgrades over the last ~year or so. Veil of summers, ouat, Castle, and karn are nuts for the deck. I like to play a more toolbox kinda style deck that likes to fetch answers and such. Not sure how to upload a decklist with links new to posting. Still not entirely sure how to format things correctly but theres the list Im working on. Last 15 are sideboard.

    So glad you posted! Glad to have you here.

    You are absolutely right we’ve had a lot of upgrades this last year. I do agree that Karn is incredible. Gives us the interaction we need in a nice little “Oatha-able” package. I still say we are the best for Karn.

    Your list plays a lot of high drops. Llanowar Tribe facilitates this well. It’s such a crazy ramping card. I haven’t played with it in a little while (only because the meta I play in got a little hostile to smaller creatures and I’d rather they bolt a fork than my 3-drop)...but it is crazy powerful. I gotta try it out again Smile

    Cool list!


    I’m kinda surprised standard players haven’t noticed the interaction between Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner and Uro, Titan of Nature’s Wrath. I don’t know much about Standard though.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    I also have been trying out Uro. Went to the dark side though (aka Leyline Smile )

    There were multiple synergies I wanted to try out; so I have been playing:

    It’s a little different than my other decks; as I’ve always been extremely high on Utopia Sprawl, Arbor Elf, Oath of Nissa, and Abundant Growth as a core to begin Devotion Decks with. There is just a really high rate of Engineered Explosives and Chalices running around in my meta...so I wanted to try out Leyline.

    I really did also want to look into the synergy between both Kiora’s And Uro as well. Uro is great with both:

    1. Uro enters the battlefield before it is sacrificed; so with the 3-drop Kiora you draw 2-cards, gain 3 life, and put another land in.

    2. 4-drop Kiora puts cards into the graveyard; so you can actually get some cards into the yard for the escape cost.

    Leyline also works well with both Kiora’s as unlike Garruk; the Kiora’s can also u tap creatures.

    I’ve been pleasantly surprised with the speed of the deck. I didn’t think it would be as consistently fast as my Karn deck (only because it uses Simian Spirit Guide); but it is. You have to mulligan a little more aggressively; but I’ve kept multiple hands without Leyline that worked out great.

    The deck essentially just overloads the opponent (forces them to have answers and lots of them quickl) and has a tiny bit of interaction to answer what absolutely has to be answered. Genesis Hydra into Woodland Bellower, into Wistful Selkie is nuts...and with a Kiora Behemoth Beckoner on board that line essentially becomes a 6-for-1.

    Like most of my decks, once you get a board presence; you pretty much can draw, untap, play a land, untap, etc. until you draw out the deck/dig to what you are looking for.

    The board is more dedicated to the combo decks in the format (as most fair decks can’t beat this). I’ll post more tonight after play.

    I wrote out a little blurb about Leyline to add to the primer and will let you know when it is up. I’m not a Leyline aficionado yet; so it may miss something you guys could add to it.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from kysg »
    It also has land destruction built in, which is really rare. Didn't even know green could do that. I knew it wierd stuff like hurricane

    side topic is a devotion deck possible going in a stompy direction? I also saw in the primer some elves builds are those still possible?

    You could definitely go Stompy (3-drop Kiora is great in Stompy versions)

    Yes...Elves is always a possibility because of Ezuri.

    There are two ways you can go with Elves...the Leyline Version can actually lead to infinite combos with Devoted Druid and Ezuri; but just straight up aggro with Joraga Warcaller and/or Ezuri is great too. Elves lend themselves to Devotion so well because they have amazing mana-sinks. I only stopped posting the Elves lists because Elves at the time just took on Nykthos and didn’t consider themselves a Devotion deck (so I didn’t want to take away from that Primer...at the time I ran it as well).
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    A recent 5-0 is a really good example of a “spike” style deck:


    This is built to kill the meta super efficiently. Great list. It contains what k believe are the “Golden Rules” of a Devotion deck:

    1. It’s early pieces (1-2 drops) only ramp or develop card advantage/consistency while adding to Devotion.
    2. It has mid game interaction (as we are rarely as consistently fast as the fastest combo decks in the format)
    3. It’s win-Conditions are Scalable.

    Of course I’m a sucker for any deck playing Genesis Hydra and Karn Smile


    The list I’m playing is relatively similar to the above. I do play a 1-of Cloudstone Curio in my board (to enable the deck to play the old Curio Walker infinite combo I used to play)...as Karn can tutor for it and in some situations it’s in auto win; but mine is a little more Suoerfriends and a little less Land Destruction. It runs on the same principles though (ramp to early powerful interactive permanents; then go over the top/overwhelm late with scalable tools).
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from dos_rogue »
    side question

    posting in a single thread can be a bit of a "tunnel vision" but i noticed lot of other threads around this one and forums outside of the established are months old without activity,,,

    did something happen to mtgsalvation's user bases recently?
    Feels like activity dropped off.

    Yeah...they announced a while back they (Salvations) were shutting down, then didn’t, but created another site...so every Primer has to be maintained on two sites (makes changes/updates difficult especially when you want the community to have a say in it).

    Also, Pioneer took a lot of brewers out of Modern for the time being. The established decks don’t really change a lot...so there isn’t a ton to post until new sets/cards change the meta).

    There is still a TON going on in Modern though. There is more than enough to keep the Modern community busy. Between streamers like Cherry, Magus, Aspiring Spike, Yellow Hat, YamaKiller, Squacheif, and a few others (I know I’m forgetting some)..you can watch game play and new lists 24/7. There also is a great community in the chats there.

    SCG event data can be tough because for whatever reason SCG events tend to bring a lot of spikes that net deck the most recent hot deck; but GP’s and other events on the deck dumps are good sources for info. There is a ton of online and local tournament data on mtgdecks.net, here, and mtggoldfish too.

    So there is ample data to learn from; but the community is a little more spread out than it used to be. The Modern season will swing back though (it always does). Pioneer came along at a time where the community wasn’t sure where to go (multiple discord’s were started, so it was just a lot all at once that spread us out. It will definitely swing back around as things settle down.


    I haven’t had a big issue with control (possibly because i play Genesis Hydra and Veil) but I do see what you’re saying. But I tend to do play more interactive versions that overwhelm/combo. I don’t think they are better than the straight “ramp to X” decks (like Tooth and nail, etc.). I just enjoy the play style more personally.

    I still, however, do think Karn is amazing in Devotion and wouldn’t move from it yet.


    And yes...I do really miss Oko. So good!
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    I think modern horizons was a double edged sword. There were some great cards that were much needed like Force of Negation, Force of Virtue, Magmatic Insight, Archmage's Charm, Ice-Fang Coatyl, Giver of Runes, Eldamiri's call, Plague Engineer, Pyromancer, and tons more. However, there were some big misses like Hogak, Astrolabe, and possibly Urza. Wren and Six I think has been ok so far. I really really dislike astrolabe and what it has done to the format. With that said, I do like seeing them push the envelope in terms of power level to really spice things up. The major mistake they made was simply adding too many new threats and not enough new answers at the same time. They really should have had a charm cycle in modern horizons that acted as modal removal spells that would help more midrange builds. If they had done that it would have really smoothed over the set. If they had made a line like

    1WG-Sorcery- Exile target planeswalker, enchantment, or creature
    1WB-Instant- Exile target non-land permanent with a converted mana cost 4 or less
    1UR-Instant- Choose one- *Deal 5 damage to target creature or planeswalker, *Draw 2 cards, a card, *Destory target artifact.
    1UW-Instant- Choose two- *Destroy all creatures with toughness 2 or less,*Gain 6 life,*destroy target artifact,*destroy target enchantment.

    and so on . Really powerful charm spells on the level of kologhans command would be extremely good for modern midrange and tempo lists. They could be two drops as well, but would obviously have to be less powerful. They could also go with harder to cast mana costs like URR,WWU, GGB, etc. Then they could be on the very strong end which I would love to see.

    I think planeswalkers are getting a bit to strong without strong answers. WOTC simply has not offered a strong answer to planswalkers yet. We need a spell or spells that can deal with them cleanly. Really answers in general are just a little to weak in the past 5 years or so when compared to the threats that keep getting better. I love bounce spells, but when every single creature enters the battlefield with a spell attached to them it becomes very hard to play and bounce spells anymore. Most of the spells that are attached to a body are the exact same cost as the spell. Why not play the creature at that point? WOTC needs to seriously think about creating decent answers to combat the threats in modern. Specifically in modern horizons 2 which will happen given the financial success that modern horizons 1 had.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    I have heard a lot of that in terms or local stores going to pioneer. I think modern still has a very strong following, but it has definitely shifted to more online play. When stores are running pioneer nights instead of modern then a majority of players will sell their modern cards for pioneer cards. I think that will be a mistake in the long run. A number of players are already not happy with pioneer as it becomes more combo oriented. The large amount of bans in pioneer can also be a problem. I assume we will see a ban of Dig through time soon too which will further add frustration.

    2019 was definitely a terrible year for modern players. Pioneer itself took a huge bit out of modern because WOTC took many of the modern tournaments and made them pioneer. This is to be expected because selling cards is the main idea for WOTC. I think the larger stores are having no problem filling modern tournaments, but smaller stores with players that only have budgets that can afford one or two formats will likely drop modern if more players prefer pioneer. I think modern will go the way of legacy in the past, but not to as large of an extent. A majority of the modern players will likely be the slightly older players who really love their deck and play less standard.

    Cedric and Patrick said it best on stream. Patrick said that he sees more foiled out lists and strange lists in modern because people really love their modern deck and play what they like to play. I think that is the future for modern. We will still have plenty of tournaments and exposure and there will still be a large amount of modern streamers etc (cherryman, caleb, squacheif, yamakiller, dido, etc). I don't think modern will be the go to "favorite format" of a lot of players like it has been in the past, but as pioneer becomes a little more homogenized modern will see a slight increase again. Modern isn't going anywhere, but we do have to realize that Pioneer will take up some of the newer modern players and modern will likely be a 50/50 split for the favorite format with pioneer going forward. The death of modern was overstated in my opinion, but I do think that modern has become much more of a digital format than it was in the past.

    It will be a very interesting year to see how modern's future plays out. It's up to local players to play the formats they like so if modern continues to not fire, it will be another tough year. The good news is that the modern prelim or challenge online had more players than the pioneer one last time so there is still a lot of interest in the modern format.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    @dos_rogue Interesting point...Nissa is definitely super powerful. The only tension i ran into was that the deck runs on so few lands I sometimes didn’t turn them into 3/3 creatures.

    I have been playing a superfriends list (only new card being Dryad of the Ilysian Grove) and it has been pretty good... I do worry not playing OUaT though.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quick question about updates Primer...how much historical data should we include? I’m gonna post Primmal Command Loop decks, A Genesis Wave deck, Tooth and nail, and Karn deck (the last few with Leyline as well)...but didn’t know how far to go down the rabbit hole.

    I want people to understand they have options; but also want to only present the historical and current most competitive win conditions.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from Rendroc »

    you were playing the same list? I’m guessing this deck was basically just ported over from Pioneer.

    I’m pretty sure the deck needs to be rebuilt to exclude Karn. Besides Lattice being banned, Opal was banned so artifact decks will be less prevalent, and therefore his passive is less relevant.

    I’ve never been that high on Hydra, but it worked really well in that deck with not many high cc creatures for a toolbox deck, where it is awkward. It also gave a glass cannon pseudo combo deck some protection and IN ADDITION, it helped dig for the payoffs. Definitely he best deck I’ve seen for Hydra.

    Unfortunately I think Karn really smoothed that deck out, and I’m not sure what could replace it.

    Up to 4X Vivien for starters. So it’s only 3 slots that need to be replaced

    Yeah...as many know, I have been a Genesis Hydra Nut for a very long time (it is literally the #1 question I got for years...”why do you play Genesis Hydra and not just play Genesis Wave?”).

    Having said that, I don’t necessarily believe it is an auto-include in all Devotion decks. The meta I play the most in has a healthy amount of control players and I have always played lot of Planeswalkers...so it wasn’t as much being “ahead of the curve” as much as it just worked well in the decks I played/meta I played in. Yes I think the card is awesome; but I can see decklists not needing or wanting it.


    There are options without Karn that can work fine. I do think that 4-drop Planeswalkers seem to be our “sweet spot” (I’ve been playing a very fun deck with Jace, the Mind Sculptor kinda like the “turbo lands” deck of old) and I’ve like Nahiri in the past (as the deck i played could also just hard-cast Emrakul at times too); but I also am very partial to Planeswalkers.

    There is also just the new Tooth and Nail decks, switching to a Vivien & Nissa WSTW heavy version of the current list, or playing a Toolbox/Primal Command list. We have options! Smile


    I tried to brew a list with Setessan Champion and even Calyx...but it’s not there yet.

    I do agree that Champion Is great and we have huge advantages in the fact that we already want to play Utopia Sprawl, Oath of Nissa, Courser of Kruphix, and Abundant Growth (a card I like to play)....my only real decision was what payoffs to utilize.

    Calyx actually wasn’t bad; but I did often use his -3 ability to start. He does require very heavy enchantment volume.

    I’ll post the list if it actually goes anywhere; but right now it’s not where I want it. I thought of doing the Heliod + Ballista combo in it (as Calyx can grab a Heliod and Ballista is good in a Devotion deck); but wasn’t certain if it would just be a worse version of other Heliod combo decks.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on [Primer] Green Nykthos Devotion (includes Tooth & Nail)
    Quote from TheThominator »
    Quote from CurdBros »
    I can’t tell you how happy I am. For those of you to the forum; I have been a relative nut about Genesis Hydra for years and have been a very big advocate for Karn in particular (and walkers in general) for some time.

    I was high on LLanowar Tribe; but had moved away from Burning-Tree Emissary and Devited Druid in my play history...I would not have seen their power in the new builds without the community here.

    It’s by our community coming together that such awesome lists get made! Christopher Gooch did such an amazing job. What an awesome Devotion player. Hopefully he hops on here so we can thank him!

    I think it may finally be time for people to see how good we’ve know this deck could be for a long time!

    P.S. Will update the Primer ASAP to add the newest cards/list.

    So, I was also attending SCG Knoxville, and also playing the Leyline List. I went 5-1, before hitting a horrible string of matches against Mono-Red Prowess, the Snow-blade deck, and with poor morale, got trash-canned by a terribly lucky TRON deck got to their payoffs faster.

    I didn't get 2nd place, but here are some observations on the deck, and what I think that it needs to do to continue in a new meta.

    1) Mono-Green Devotion was stupidly well-positioned in the meta at the time. The field was flooded with Urza decks and Oko-Amulit Builds. Our deck literally murders non-interactive match-ups. With any decent hand, we are faster and more explosive than any other deck in the format, and by Turn 3, we can make a ton of mana and often can play Karn, fetch, and play a stumbling block that delays long enough to command the game. In my 5 wins, I 2-0'd Tron, Urza (the most played deck), Dredge, B/G Yawgmoth, and U/G Amulet Titan. My only early loss was to Mono-Red Prowess. Which brings me to #2

    2) The deck is weak to interaction / removal. Bolting our birds, or a key Thoughtseize will mess you up playing a deck that is adamant about hitting a 4-cost PW on T3 (and some games T2 - with a couple of Leylines). That's where Prowess got me. Killed any dorks I played, and pinned down the benefit of the Leylines, and hampered Nykthos.

    3) Genesis Hydra was the hidden gem. Many of my opponents flipped it over to read it, and my reply was often - "It's like Krasis. No matter what, I get to look, and play." This was the hidden tech against counter-spells. I originally was playing with Krasis and Voracious Hydra, but after some play testing, the Hydra was just bonkers. It can be cast for X=4 as early as T2, but reliably by T3, and at X=4, it literally will play everything in the deck other than Once Upon a Time. If they don't have a counter, it is a game-shattering 2 for 1 on T3. And it's not that hard to consistently do.

    4) This deck is fun to play. Like, really fun. I had some of the most fun, even at a high-stakes REL event.

    But the real news:

    1) With the Oko and Mox bans, the Urza deck is effectively dead. With that, more "fair" decks will sneak in. We are already seeing this with an increase in Mono-Red Prowess, Burn, Death's Shadow, Humans, Tron and Jund. Each of these decks have just enough gas to interrupt us enough for a win. To continue, this deck - whether in the main or in the side has to deal with early creature removal. Options include veil of Summer, or Shaper's Sanctuary - but I had been so underwhelmed with these, they weren't in my SB, though I will say I may have paid for it in my Prowess matchups.

    2) The loss of Lattice may not be as bad as people think. Sure, it was a nice lock, but it was hard to pull off through potential disruption, or I was at least delayed a turn between being able to Karn for it, and play it. In fact, in more than one game, I went for the Coating because it could be "on" the next turn, and I Ponza'd out the Titan player. Between Karn and Vivien there are a lot of things out there that can disrupt or end a game. So much so, that the loss of Lattice doesn't even impact Karn's place in the deck.

    I am cautiously optimistic about the future of this deck. Will be interested in what comes next.

    WOW! Great write up!

    I am also still playing Karn. The deck looks different than it used to; but I still think Karn is among the best things we can be doing.

    P.S. Updated Primer will be up by Sunday. I have allotted 4 hours Saturday to finish it up. It won’t be super duper nice immediately; but we’ll add what we need overthr next week or so.
    Posted in: Big Mana
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Awesome list! As ccc1522 said, we discuss all manner of jeskai and delver decks here. We welcome all! I love the list. That is one of the great things about the jeskai shard in modern. It really allows one to customize their list.

    I do agree that three colonnade is a lot. I just hate having lands come in tapped. I typically play a lower curve that is more proactive so I rarely ever play colonnade. I just feel like by the time you would need it you would likely have it with two copies.

    As for brazen borrower ccc1522, I actually really like it against eldrazi tron for the exact reason that ohers have said. I like having a "catch all" against chalice of the void and ensnaring bridge. They can end a game for us so it's nice to have something against it. Eldrazi tron is just a really tough matchup. It is particularly tough for the more midrange style builds. Path is great against them so that is nice. To reliably beat them the sideboard plan has to be good. I used to like ceremonious rejection, but I have seen a lot of caverns lately in eldrazi tron so I haven't been running it as much. I think Disdainful Stroke is much more usable right now given all of the ramp decks in the meta as well.

    Against Dredge I like Graffdigger's Cage and Ashiok, Dream Render. I also run Anger of the Gods. We aren't going to out race them so we basically have to become a tempo/control deck. Celestial purge and Surgical Extraction are also great options. I used to run surgical over cage, but with all of the heliod/druid combo right now, graffdigger's cage hits multiple matchups. It does hurt our snapcaster mages, but it hurts the opponent way more. Rest in peace is also a great option for any jeskai list.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Thanks wickedapp. I have been having a ton of fun playing it. It looks weird on paper but it plays very well so far. I’m just trying not to get too greedy and adding white to the list but I will have to scratch that itch at some point 😀
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Also at @stevomatUWR- Ben Freidman loves your deck!

    His article on Starcity says Jeskai Saheeli is the best deck in modern. It's paid content so you may not be able to read it, but he basically talks about how it has a decent matchup against all of the meta right now. Not 70-30 against anything, but is advantaged post board against nearly every single deck.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
  • posted a message on Jeskai Tempo /Delver/Prowess ("The Jeskai Way" )
    Here is a list that I have been running that has been going really well lately. It's a lot of fun too.

    The idea is basically to get out ahead early and bounce things and gain card advantage throughout the game. Here are the main interaction

    Vapor Snag + Light up the Stage- a way to trigger spectacle easily and gain card advantage

    Light up the State + Counter Magic- this is something I had not seen before, but if you light up the stage you can have counter magic up. Obviously the opponent can play around said counter magic because they know it's there, but they are forced to play around it. Unfortunately you can't use the blue card exiled from light up the stage to pay force of negations alternate cost, but you can use a force of negation that has been exiled by light up the stage by discarding a blue card that is in your hand.

    Prowess and bounce spells- This is fairly straightforward, but powerful. Bounce spells are great with delver and prowess creatures. The damage adds up quickly and often opponents lose with 4-5 cards still in hand.

    The last sideboard slot I wasn't sure about. It really depends on the meta. I have thought about Spreading Seas, Anger of the Gods, flusterstorm, Grim Lavamancer, etc. There are tons of options.

    Another thing I have questioned is whether I should run a main deck Spell Pierce instead of a fourth light up the stage. I have played both ways and it didn't change a ton. I think in game one we want to win quickly and can side in additional counter magic if we need to.

    I have tested it for about a week now and am loving it. I will run it through a couple of leagues and see how it goes. Let me know what changes you think I should make. I will likely give jeskai a try too with path in the list and helix, but I want to test with just UR for starters.
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Modern)
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