Interesting that he doesn't value having the K commands to kill Hollow Ones. I guess our creatures are usually bigger, but he also only has one Dismember in his 75.
How's The deck doing? Have you tried incorporating Recruiter of the Guard or Sanctum Prelate? Tamiyo is interesting but it seems weird to try her when you haven't tried JTMS. His Brainstorming can prevent you from running out of gas.
Can we talk about our bad match ups and which versions of the deck are better equipped to deal with which ones?
Tron
Burn
..what else?
I feel counter spells and Delve threats are the way to beat those two decks. Dispel, Spell Snare, Burn sb card of choice, and Delve threats make the matchup doable. To beat Tron a fast clock, plus some LD and negates are the way to steal a game from Tron.
Another bad matchup in my testing has actually been UW. Leyline of Sanctity is very annoying, their LD can mess up our colors and gets rid of our small number of manlands, and Elspeth Sun's Champion, Jace Architect of Thought, and Sphinx's Revelation are all strong trump cards. In addition if they land Leyline, good luck getting rid of any planeswalkers in play. The Kalitas heavy build that's tuned to beat aggro is even worse against UW. Landing a Keranos is our trump though.
So. I realize burn is probably our worst matchup from my experience. I was wondering (and sorry if this has been covered but I'm fairly new to this thread) how much can we jimmy the manabase to reduce the pain. I was thinking the usual suite of fetches, single shock lands, basics, and a smattering of fast lands, check lands and filters... These combined with counters and a half decent clock might be able to get us a better matchup? I'm wondering how much we can reduce the pain without wrecking our other matchups. Seems like if we could just give them one less free bolt/shock, it might do to improve the matchup a lot. Obviously blood moon gets scarier with this change though...
I just feel like all the typically proposed options are just simply... Well... Bad and every time I'm doing well.. I get matched against burn and lose in three. Not to mention how grindy all my threats are. I love Kia and p but they feel so slow sometimes.
If we want to beat Burn we can. We can run the full 8 suite of fast lands. We run 4 Inquisition and 4 Dispel main. We run 3 Kalitas. We put Vampiric Links and Dragon's Claws and Jorubai Murk-Lurkers in the sideboard. We run 0 copies of AV and GDD. That's how much we need to warp our deck to beat Burn reliably. This is one of the main weaknesses of our deck. The unbanning of AV has only slowed our deck down and given us more bad draws vs Burn. If we look at the Invitational a lot of the top decks were Burn/Small Zoo lists. 0 copies of AV. Obviously this is a small sample size (though the Invitational itself was 700~ skilled players), but Burn is the elephant in the room we must address moving forward with Grixis.
I lost to Fish 1-2 round 1, beat Infect 2-1 Round 2, beat Jund 2-0 Round 3, and beat Jund Loam with Gitrog 2-0 Round 4.
Some thoughts:
Inquisition of Kozilek was excellent. Having a proactive Turn 1 play that was good vs both fast decks and fair decks was really refreshing. Mana Leak was acceptable and cleanly answered annoying threats like Liliana and Seismic Assault. Not being able to kill Master of Waves with anything but Murderous Cut was a serious problem. Ancestral was straight garbage versus both Fish and Infect, while putting in tons of work versus Jund and Loam. 2 GDD was the perfect amount since I rarely wanted to draw both. I actually got mana screwed a fair bit, getting stuck on 2 or 3 lands. I don't want to go up to 24 though because late game 5 lands was usually all I needed. I like the idea of some number of Clique main and I feel like we don't need stuff like Jace AoT anymore because we have more than enough card advantage. Keranos was great though. How do you guys like Darkslick Shores? I see that a few people don't run any, but having a painless way to IoK or visions was excellent. I'm also going to slot in 1 Creeping Tar-Pit and 1 Wandering Fumarole in the mana base as well.
paragonweapon: I'll just say that Chain of Vapor has been extremely swingy for me. If you're bouncing something like Humility or Elesh Norn, that's fine. If you're bouncing anything less impactful, I find that whoever is the target will get to bounce one of your key stax pieces (usually a Winter Orb effect) and that's just disastrous.
Captain Sisay is already on my watchlist: I'll try geddons first, but after that she's next in the queue. Yisan however requires a setup - I think I would need either Concordant Crossroads or Quirion Ranger, because right now he would be doing something useful after two turns (first turn he's summoning sick, second turn he can fetch only mana dorks or Judge's Familiar, which doesn't impress anyone).
I definitely think it's worth adding support for Yisan. He's one of the strongest tutor engines we have available and works extremely well with Derevi untaps and an active Cradle (which he can fetched by tutoring up a Weathered Wayfarer).
Also, I'm surprised you don't like Survival. Cashing in mana dorks for a Hokori seems pretty good.
It is good, but it's more of a dream scenario than real life unfortunately. There are two problems with Survival in my deck:
1) It's pretty good when dropped early, but that means I'm not dropping disruption, which is usually more important. If I draw it late, it usually costs about 4 mana (it's a noncreature, nonartifact, nonblue/nonwhite spell that gets affected with all my taxes) and another one to activate, which is quite a lot, especially under orbs.
2) I have no graveyard recursion and there aren't that many creatures I could pitch without worries. Sure, if I happen to have a spare mana dork or a silver bullet without a target (say, Hushwing Gryff without any creature combo deck across me), I could exchange them for something more useful. There are many cases though when my hand is something like Linvala, Thalia, Glen Elendra plus Sakashima and I don't really want to pitch any of those, even if I need Hokori.
I could maybe consider Survival again, but only with a payoff package (Loyal Retainers plus Elesh Norn), and that means three slots to find.
I would definitely consider trying it. You have a few cards that both you and I are not excited about (Trygon Predator and Lodestone Golem).
P.S. If you were looking to add more counterspells, Deprive and Unified Will might be worth looking into. They both have serious drawbacks but depending on your meta and boardstate could work out. Have you ever tested Druid's Repository? It fulfills a similar role to Nature's Will.
I don't think Fiend Hunter is a bad option, playable at least. Swapping sage for Caustic Caterpillar is an option.
Caustic Caterpillar isn't really what I'm looking for - I prefer to leave a body behind for attacking purposes or as a Pod fodder. If I were to run such effect, I'd rather play Qasali Pridemage. Fiend Hunter is a good suggestion though, I'll give him a try sometime soon.
Crop Rotation was pretty decent and this change will stay, at least until I find something better. Homeward Path I'm not sold on - it's very narrow and I think I'd rather stick with Gemstone Caverns. As for Armageddon, I have no idea - I never drew it during the whole evening, so I guess I'll give it another run next week.
There is another problem though - I have a hard time getting back into the game when someone manages to break my prison in the late turns. I have zero graveyard recursion and no big cards like Time Spiral, so putting the pieces together again when everyone has a lot of mana is pretty dificult. I'm considering two different ways to fix it:
1) Cut either Rhystic Study or Trygon Predator for Reveillark. He's awesome with Pod (saccing spare Venser/Snake/Glen Elendra/whatever for Llark and then saccing Llark for Consecrated Sphinx can get me back in the saddle pretty quickly), he attacks in the air and I can always evoke him if need be. The thing is, he costs a whopping five mana (six when evoked) and he doesn't disrupt anything by himself.
2) Cut Rhystic Study and maybe Crop Rotation for Armageddon and Ravages of War. With all my mana dorks they can reset the game very efficiently, but they are pretty awkward with my taxes and even more awkward with Gaddock Teeg.
In my experience, there are two main problems with Derevi and Stax as a whole.
1. We're playing Archenemy. Every relevant piece of interaction is aimed at our orbs and taxes. It's in no one's best interest to let the board get locked. One way to combat this is to play more recursion and midrangey stuff at the cost of speed; EWit, Lark, Sun Titan, etc.
2.Once we soft-lock the table, we take forever to actually kill everyone. Elesh Norn helps but isn't a foolproof solution. I've tried incorporating Swift's DEN/Gilded Lotus/inf mana outlet combo plan, but it can be pretty clunky.
For your specifc deck/problem, I would recommend adding more draw/tutor engines. Yisan is way better than he looks as he can get Weathered Wayfarer, which can get Gaea's Cradle, making his activated ability pretty much free. Captain Sissay also looks slow but gets so many relevant cards (10 in your list, more if you run Elesh Norn and Jin). Also, I'm surprised you don't like Survival. Cashing in mana dorks for a Hokori seems pretty good. Since you don't run Survival, you can slot in a Rest in Peace over your Scooze. If you miss the life gain, you could run a High Market (I know, I know, it's another colorless land), which also does double duty against Gilded Drake.
Brainstorm and Sage of Epityr have played very well early game. T1 Sage smooths out our opening. Jace has always been solid. In a heavy creature-based meta maybe I wouldn't play Jace as he would be difficult to defend. But paired with Gilded Drake, Venser, or orb effects Jace does great work. Gaddock Teeg is very subpar. Doesn't stop cheap tutors, Toxic Deluge, or Rift. Nor Deed. I'd cut him. Replace him with a tax piece; it would be an improvement. I've found tutor engines and draw engines invaluable towards my goal of winning games. Dorks expose you to wipes. If you eat a wipe before you can get an engine online that's probably gg
I'll test out Sage. In that vein, is Mirri's Guile or SDT worth a look? I would lean more towards the Mirri's Guile since our mana is tight.
Any insight on how Brainstorm, Sage of Epityr, and Jace has worked for you? Jace the Mind Sculptor seems unlikely to survive one rotation around the table. I also have opted to include Gaddock Teeg in my list which plays poorly with Jace and also the three main combo outlets. I've removed a lot of the low impact mana dorks but I still play a ton to the board. Is High Market or some other sac outlet necessary to kill off Teeg when I want to combo off?
In my opinion, 12 fetches is where you want to be. I know that might not be realistic for tomorrow but 7 shocklands is a bit dicey. I also love Deflecting Palm but I think 4 is way too many. As Burn we want to put on the pressure early and having too many cards that don't do that (Path and Palm) can get kind of awkward. I've had games where I had to pass turn 2 with no plays since all I had was a bunch of reactive spells.
Couple responses/questions:
What do you mean that 7 shocklands is dicey (need more or less)?
I currently only have 3 basics, I feel that adding more fetches wouldnt allow me to grab a basic on an opponents path (probably doesnt happen much thought).
I agree I dont want to be reactive so I'll keep the palms as a 3-of.
Side question: Would it be better to replace a rest in peace in my sb for a hallowed (against coco decks)?
Thanks for the advice!
7 Shocklands is too much pain. Cut a Sacred Foundry and a Stomping Grounds to turn on Landfall for Searing Blaze and provide more fuel for Grim Lavamancer. You'll also want the option to fetch for Basic Mountains which is crucial in the mirror.
Hallowed Moonlight is kind of spicy, but I don't think we want that effect. It does do double duty versus Grishoalbrand. The way Abzan Coco beats us is just jamming a bunch of Kitchen Finks. I think we want the full 8 Skullcracks versus them.
In my opinion, 12 fetches is where you want to be. I know that might not be realistic for tomorrow but 7 shocklands is a bit dicey. I also love Deflecting Palm but I think 4 is way too many. As Burn we want to put on the pressure early and having too many cards that don't do that (Path and Palm) can get kind of awkward. I've had games where I had to pass turn 2 with no plays since all I had was a bunch of reactive spells.
Thoughts on the 7th place and 9th place Burn lists at SCG Atlanta Classic? Both on the Nacatl/heavy green plan. I think I like Arrowsmith's list a bit more, though the 4!! Stomping Grounds seems a bit much.
I feel counter spells and Delve threats are the way to beat those two decks. Dispel, Spell Snare, Burn sb card of choice, and Delve threats make the matchup doable. To beat Tron a fast clock, plus some LD and negates are the way to steal a game from Tron.
Another bad matchup in my testing has actually been UW. Leyline of Sanctity is very annoying, their LD can mess up our colors and gets rid of our small number of manlands, and Elspeth Sun's Champion, Jace Architect of Thought, and Sphinx's Revelation are all strong trump cards. In addition if they land Leyline, good luck getting rid of any planeswalkers in play. The Kalitas heavy build that's tuned to beat aggro is even worse against UW. Landing a Keranos is our trump though.
If we want to beat Burn we can. We can run the full 8 suite of fast lands. We run 4 Inquisition and 4 Dispel main. We run 3 Kalitas. We put Vampiric Links and Dragon's Claws and Jorubai Murk-Lurkers in the sideboard. We run 0 copies of AV and GDD. That's how much we need to warp our deck to beat Burn reliably. This is one of the main weaknesses of our deck. The unbanning of AV has only slowed our deck down and given us more bad draws vs Burn. If we look at the Invitational a lot of the top decks were Burn/Small Zoo lists. 0 copies of AV. Obviously this is a small sample size (though the Invitational itself was 700~ skilled players), but Burn is the elephant in the room we must address moving forward with Grixis.
I lost to Fish 1-2 round 1, beat Infect 2-1 Round 2, beat Jund 2-0 Round 3, and beat Jund Loam with Gitrog 2-0 Round 4.
Some thoughts:
Inquisition of Kozilek was excellent. Having a proactive Turn 1 play that was good vs both fast decks and fair decks was really refreshing. Mana Leak was acceptable and cleanly answered annoying threats like Liliana and Seismic Assault. Not being able to kill Master of Waves with anything but Murderous Cut was a serious problem. Ancestral was straight garbage versus both Fish and Infect, while putting in tons of work versus Jund and Loam. 2 GDD was the perfect amount since I rarely wanted to draw both. I actually got mana screwed a fair bit, getting stuck on 2 or 3 lands. I don't want to go up to 24 though because late game 5 lands was usually all I needed. I like the idea of some number of Clique main and I feel like we don't need stuff like Jace AoT anymore because we have more than enough card advantage. Keranos was great though. How do you guys like Darkslick Shores? I see that a few people don't run any, but having a painless way to IoK or visions was excellent. I'm also going to slot in 1 Creeping Tar-Pit and 1 Wandering Fumarole in the mana base as well.
I definitely think it's worth adding support for Yisan. He's one of the strongest tutor engines we have available and works extremely well with Derevi untaps and an active Cradle (which he can fetched by tutoring up a Weathered Wayfarer).
I would definitely consider trying it. You have a few cards that both you and I are not excited about (Trygon Predator and Lodestone Golem).
P.S. If you were looking to add more counterspells, Deprive and Unified Will might be worth looking into. They both have serious drawbacks but depending on your meta and boardstate could work out. Have you ever tested Druid's Repository? It fulfills a similar role to Nature's Will.
In my experience, there are two main problems with Derevi and Stax as a whole.
1. We're playing Archenemy. Every relevant piece of interaction is aimed at our orbs and taxes. It's in no one's best interest to let the board get locked. One way to combat this is to play more recursion and midrangey stuff at the cost of speed; EWit, Lark, Sun Titan, etc.
2.Once we soft-lock the table, we take forever to actually kill everyone. Elesh Norn helps but isn't a foolproof solution. I've tried incorporating Swift's DEN/Gilded Lotus/inf mana outlet combo plan, but it can be pretty clunky.
For your specifc deck/problem, I would recommend adding more draw/tutor engines. Yisan is way better than he looks as he can get Weathered Wayfarer, which can get Gaea's Cradle, making his activated ability pretty much free. Captain Sissay also looks slow but gets so many relevant cards (10 in your list, more if you run Elesh Norn and Jin). Also, I'm surprised you don't like Survival. Cashing in mana dorks for a Hokori seems pretty good. Since you don't run Survival, you can slot in a Rest in Peace over your Scooze. If you miss the life gain, you could run a High Market (I know, I know, it's another colorless land), which also does double duty against Gilded Drake.
How's the Depths? With our low land count, a ETB tapped land can set us back pretty far on tempo.
I'll test out Sage. In that vein, is Mirri's Guile or SDT worth a look? I would lean more towards the Mirri's Guile since our mana is tight.
7 Shocklands is too much pain. Cut a Sacred Foundry and a Stomping Grounds to turn on Landfall for Searing Blaze and provide more fuel for Grim Lavamancer. You'll also want the option to fetch for Basic Mountains which is crucial in the mirror.
Hallowed Moonlight is kind of spicy, but I don't think we want that effect. It does do double duty versus Grishoalbrand. The way Abzan Coco beats us is just jamming a bunch of Kitchen Finks. I think we want the full 8 Skullcracks versus them.