the reason i prefer cockatrice over fated is more to do with the evasion and the ability to literally stonewall any threat in standard, the monstrosity is a bonus that i expect to seldom utilize, although, late game, which this deck does pretty well, it does have some added pressure, as far as draw spells go, i would normally agree, i love drawing cards as much as the next guy, but the deck manages to maintain even ca with decks that draw by denying those spells with counter magic, because the deck relies so much on 1 for 1ing with counters idk if i have the breathing room for weak one time draw like inspiration, and opportunity seems like it would only really improve the control mu which, as stated is already very strong.
shambleshark vs skylasher i look at like this, control mu, skylasher is better, dodges counter and a good amount of answers they run, mono blue skylasher is better defensively and aggressively, as well as being better defensively in general, i guess the real determining factor would probably be the creature to noncreature ratio, in the original extreme budget brew i usually got one evolve off the shark, definitely worth playtesting though.
as far as the sideboard suggestions, aetherize is definitely in, as for needle, needle is almost always a pretty safe sb card, i guess the real question is how many noncontrol walker lists will be floating around, rg is a thing now, and in theory ajani will spawn some creature heavy decks with walkers, plus it does have the added bonus of hitting most control deck win cons. i don't think curse of swine would do much for me, fog effects seem kinda weak to me in standard mainly because the fogs in standard are very one time use, and the sort of deck that even one times work really well against, like some stompy variation don't exist, all the aggro decks in standard have more sustainability than to be foiled by preventing one turn of damage. lastly bow and bident are both great cards and bow might deserve a spot, not an instant obviously, but it does give me things to be doing if i don't have things i need to cast eot, i'd rather run jace over bident though, if i were going to play a sorcery speed 4 drop, i feel like bident only really shines in very high creature count lists with a lot of evasion like mono blue and even those lists often opt for jace.
i'm not sure i'm sold on the idea of shambleshark being better than skylasher, and i really don't care for fated intervention, i'd much rather play the cockatrice in that spot. as for 4 charm, i pretty much agree this card is an all star in this list, but basically the opinion here is dropping counter magic for more dudes and tricks, in my experience with playtesting the thing that made the deck oppressive and hard to deal with was the 16 counter spells. i need to playtest the split some more, figure out exactly where i want my numbers to be.
any suggestions for sb construction, 4 negates and then the rest stuff to deal with aggro?
hmmm... i appreciate the advice, i think i want to try and keep 2 cockatrice in the deck, maybe it is just a pet fascination, but i think he is pretty strong, dropping him down to 2, would free up for the 4th satyr and one space for briarpack, maybe cut cancel to 2 and run 3 alphas? are you of the opinion that i should make room for 4 briarpack alpha? what is your opinion of cancel vs essence scatter in the main?
Standard is not "terribly inconsistent and slow". If that's what you're seeing, it is just because of what kind of group surrounds you. There are plenty of other ways to brew a 10 dollarish deck and smash them. In any case, we might as well streamline you while we're at it.
I don't know if you already own the boon satyrs but if you have more, play 4. The first things in this deck that should go would be cancel and the cockatrice. If you have scavenging ooze leftover from EDH, it can find a home here too. Briarpack alpha definitely belongs here in some number and fated intervention is a cheapy that supports the idea well too with good efficiency. Mistcutter hydra is a little more pricy but also good to round out the beater base. In my opinion, that works much better than skylasher where the flash is not nearly as effective. The body just isn't big enough. Probably not worth it unless you see a lot of mono blue devotion.
if you consider the top decks in the meta, black devotion, or orzhov midrange (slow), UWx control (slow), blue devotion (not really slow, but very reliant on 3 and 4 drops, so i'll have counter mana open)
maybe my opinion of slow and inconsistent is clouded from a standard era where delver, geist, frites and pod dominated. i was playtesting online, so it really has nothing to do with my play group.
as for the constructive part, i like boon satyr and may end up raising it to four by dropping the cockatrice number. i have scoozes but i genuinely enjoy how the deck operates entirely at instant speed, which would also exclude mistcutter imo, brair pack alpha is great, and definitely has places in my 75, i really enjoyed playing with a high number of counterspells and don't think i'd want to cut from there mb, the cockatrice and chimera both seem relatively unimpressive but in playtesting i found that the incremental damage i was able to push over in the air was very key to the tempo of the deck. skylasher in the main seems better than shambleshark. fated intervention seems pretty bad to me, i'd much rather play the cockatrice which can not only trade with all the major threats in the format but also serves as a flying beater.
anyway thanks for the feedback, any thoughts as to the construction of sb, should i load the sb full of flash bodies, or more tricks like cyclonic rift and aetherize.
backstory:
i have always had a love hate relationship with standard, cost vs competitiveness, when jou was first being spoiled i, along with a couple friends who had played religiously during scars-innistrad standard, decided to get back into standard, i was playtesting some meta decks, as well as some brews, including a constellation deck that i was fairly excited about, after a legit amount of testing i was very unhappy with the way anything performed in comparison to it's cost. right as i was about to give up all hope and go back to solely playing edh, it occurred to me that i could probably brew a 10$ deck that could beat the terribly inconsistent and slow decks in the current standard. with that thought i built this.
after some playtesting, against both control and aggro and winning, i was feeling pretty good about this idea, so i decided to supplement the package with cards, that raise the price tag pretty drastically but, we happen to have that currently aren't in use, this is the brew. , updated with sideboard.
the sideboard still feels rough to me, i imagine it will come together better over time.
match ups
UWx control:
this match is very hard for them to win, they can't stick win cons or sphinx rev. most of their answers will be ineffective at dealing with one creature backed up with counter magic. the notable card here is mystic genesis which is a nice 2 in 1 which will often be used against a jace, elspeth, blood baron, aetherling or assemble, they tap out for win con, which they lose, you then get a large beater.
mono black devotion:
this match up seemed pretty simple to me, the principle thing to watch in this match up is pack rat, he can nullify counter magic, and the only easy way to put the breaks on this is cyclonic rift, deal with it very early or lose the game, otherwise smooth sailing, they rely on threats very vulnerable to counter magic and generally you just chip away at them. simic charm is particularly strong in this match up.
mono blue devotion:
more challenging than i expected, and further reinforces my choice to mainboard skylasher, best case you counter master of waves and thasa and bestow boon satyr on skylasher. aetherize is very important out of the sideboard they often don't swing with master, but otherwise all out attack, this leaves master castrated and them at square one.
gruul midrange:
need to playtest more, although i won the match, seems very swingy, the goal is to ride out the early drops, counter the high curve, and drop a flier bestow a satyr and put them on a 3 turn clock.
uw heroic:
i realize this isn't a meta deck, it did however seem like a hard match up on paper, i was able to win the match but i do imagine these sort of decks will have nut hands this deck just couldn't match.
boros burn:
this is very bad match up, i need to playtest the sideboard against this one, i added scavenging ooze particularly for the match, the life gain, getting phoenix out of the way, and the ability to very quickly grow out of burn range make this guy strong, i imagine bringing in the all creatures, and siding out all the higher end counter and essentially try and outrace and out-combat trick them.
i'd love to get feedback on the deck itself, the sb, match ups, etc.
This card is so good, better then oracle in current standard imo, sure it doesn't ramp, but the cost and dat butt, plus a little life gain as a bonus, it also synergize very well with domri and kiora as mentioned, domri + courser essentially turns domri's +1 into draw 2 cards, but most importantly it drastically helps you hit land drops on time, as well improving draws in the late game.
Definitely my favorite spoiler.
So what would be wrong with a list like this, seems like you would pretty effectively fog out aggro and i've heard ashiok and jace are both pretty good against control.
4 Frostburn weird
3 Omen speaker
4 Nightveil specter
4 Wall of frost
2 Desecration demon
4 Phenax
This is my list didn't get to attend game day, i have attended an fnm, and playtested the deck extensively against gw aggro, rdw, and azorius control, not to mention other things to a lesser extent. I did very well at fnm came in a technical second, we opted to split top 4.
My list is a little different from what i have seen on the forums, i am very happy to see everyone off the desecration demon band wagon, never really understood him in this shell. My list runs a very heavy kill/ burn package, my meta is very aggro, and i have never struggled against control, especially after sb. So here is my list.
As an after thought, high priest and gift are both for aggro, gift is bonkers on sin collector, high priest, reckoner.
I mentioned placing gift on baron, obviously impossible, to swing into advent which also seems mildly useless since he is a 4/4, which is because i meant to say obzedat, on which is it is an okay placement against aggro decks where blinking only serves to cause the trigger, which will happen anyway if the manage to do something fancy with combat/ burn.
I'm just saying Elvish Archdruid has been reprinted ever since M10. If he is in fact reprinted in M14 he is going to be a huge part in dropping Garruk turn 3
Elf ramp will make for some exciting standard plays with this guy.
T1 dork, arbor or mystic
T2 elvish archdruid
T3 garruk, -3 for fatty (worldspine wurm for ultimate stupid)
T4 +1 grab some dudes, cast dudes with 7 mana.
Silliness, i understand the critiques of this guy, he has the right power level in my opinion, i like niche playable walkers, not ones that define formats or break them.
EDIT: also he is way better than any chandra or tibalt or new lili so there is that.
We may have to agree to disagree on this one, out of the suggested creatures while they may seem to have more interactions they really don't, smiter while having no actual ability once he hits the board is still one of the biggest bodies in the meta, other people run him, none of the recommended replacements can beat out an enemy smiter, he also trades with reckoner, something else none if the replacements can do if they have one spare mana, also beats down resto should they need to block like that or can trade with a flipped huntmaster. On top of all this, lili is still a card, and people still run counterspells, if those abilities were on a 3/3 for 2 mana i'd probably tend to agree that it is more sb fodder for control.
On a different note i have been considering knight of infamy, the protection is very relevant, the exalted is a nice perk, the way i see the exalted is added reach, if all is going well it is irrelevant, if the board is clogged maybe i can swing in for a couple points without losing anything, either with his own protection or trample on something else. Thoughts?
Loud and clear, , death and taxes!
But with death and taxes -- is that taking advantage of the best cards afforded to junk and is it doing it with efficiency?
Yes, Lox-Smit is a hell of a strong card, but in the current meta it goes away fast and easy! running 3 of in the side is perfect for the few control-decks. With what your trying to establish there are better cards out there at the three spot.
@ findogul--
Hey, cool build. Looking at your deck I feel there are better options for junk than the cards you have selected. Not to say the cards you have chosen are weak or irrelevant just not the best options at this time for junk.
Another point, I feel the deck is lost in terms of what it tries to establish.
For the most part, junk is mid-range(rites) or tokens, with this in mind, how can one not play fatties (craterhoof behemoth) or tokens (advent of the wurm) etc.
My experience leads me to believe these guys are situational sideboards:
Really it's a disservice to VoR -- you're trying to punish whoever for casting spells and you need creatures to make the token a threat. The cards really just don't fit.
With the plot being trading-up creatures in this deck undying is a must with a sac engine.
Ah, well i can see that people generally believe that junk/ voice belongs to the sac engine of aristocrats. The token side was my orginal angle, i found the deck didn't have the answers i wanted to midrange decks that just outgrow me, the death and taxes idea is the direction i am going for, i want to punish my opponent for doing things, deny death not encourage it, as for varolz, aristocrats lists run him so i don't understand how he devalues voice. What i am looking for is not so much a different direction, if i wanted to do rites, tokens, or aristocrats i would have posted on those forums, but help with refining the card choices for a tax style deck.
EDIT: also why would loxodon ever be a situational sideboard card?
Ha, well I think between legion's initiative is probably a better choice in naya aggro. But I agree, sin collector is definitely an awesome hate bear, I would consider him in the mainboard but the meta has too many decks that either won't have a hand, or won't have noncreature spells to hit, most of the time both.
shambleshark vs skylasher i look at like this, control mu, skylasher is better, dodges counter and a good amount of answers they run, mono blue skylasher is better defensively and aggressively, as well as being better defensively in general, i guess the real determining factor would probably be the creature to noncreature ratio, in the original extreme budget brew i usually got one evolve off the shark, definitely worth playtesting though.
as far as the sideboard suggestions, aetherize is definitely in, as for needle, needle is almost always a pretty safe sb card, i guess the real question is how many noncontrol walker lists will be floating around, rg is a thing now, and in theory ajani will spawn some creature heavy decks with walkers, plus it does have the added bonus of hitting most control deck win cons. i don't think curse of swine would do much for me, fog effects seem kinda weak to me in standard mainly because the fogs in standard are very one time use, and the sort of deck that even one times work really well against, like some stompy variation don't exist, all the aggro decks in standard have more sustainability than to be foiled by preventing one turn of damage. lastly bow and bident are both great cards and bow might deserve a spot, not an instant obviously, but it does give me things to be doing if i don't have things i need to cast eot, i'd rather run jace over bident though, if i were going to play a sorcery speed 4 drop, i feel like bident only really shines in very high creature count lists with a lot of evasion like mono blue and even those lists often opt for jace.
any suggestions for sb construction, 4 negates and then the rest stuff to deal with aggro?
if you consider the top decks in the meta, black devotion, or orzhov midrange (slow), UWx control (slow), blue devotion (not really slow, but very reliant on 3 and 4 drops, so i'll have counter mana open)
maybe my opinion of slow and inconsistent is clouded from a standard era where delver, geist, frites and pod dominated. i was playtesting online, so it really has nothing to do with my play group.
as for the constructive part, i like boon satyr and may end up raising it to four by dropping the cockatrice number. i have scoozes but i genuinely enjoy how the deck operates entirely at instant speed, which would also exclude mistcutter imo, brair pack alpha is great, and definitely has places in my 75, i really enjoyed playing with a high number of counterspells and don't think i'd want to cut from there mb, the cockatrice and chimera both seem relatively unimpressive but in playtesting i found that the incremental damage i was able to push over in the air was very key to the tempo of the deck. skylasher in the main seems better than shambleshark. fated intervention seems pretty bad to me, i'd much rather play the cockatrice which can not only trade with all the major threats in the format but also serves as a flying beater.
anyway thanks for the feedback, any thoughts as to the construction of sb, should i load the sb full of flash bodies, or more tricks like cyclonic rift and aetherize.
i have always had a love hate relationship with standard, cost vs competitiveness, when jou was first being spoiled i, along with a couple friends who had played religiously during scars-innistrad standard, decided to get back into standard, i was playtesting some meta decks, as well as some brews, including a constellation deck that i was fairly excited about, after a legit amount of testing i was very unhappy with the way anything performed in comparison to it's cost. right as i was about to give up all hope and go back to solely playing edh, it occurred to me that i could probably brew a 10$ deck that could beat the terribly inconsistent and slow decks in the current standard. with that thought i built this.
4 horizon chimera
2 briarpack alpha
4 fleetfeather cockatrice
4 simic charm
2 disperse
2 essence scatter
4 cancel
4 dissolve
2 mystic genesis
2 Fleetfeather Cockatrice
4 Syncopate
4 Simic Charm
2 Essence Scatter
4 Dissolve
2 Mystic Genesis
2 Cancel
8 Island
4 Temple of Mystery
6 Forest
4 Skylasher
2 Cyclonic Rift
4 Boon Satyr
4 Breeding Pool
2 Briarpack Alpha
2 Mutavault
3 Negate
2 Essence Scatter
2 AEtherize
2 Briarpack Alpha
4 Shambleshark
2 Scavenging Ooze
the sideboard still feels rough to me, i imagine it will come together better over time.
match ups
UWx control:
this match is very hard for them to win, they can't stick win cons or sphinx rev. most of their answers will be ineffective at dealing with one creature backed up with counter magic. the notable card here is mystic genesis which is a nice 2 in 1 which will often be used against a jace, elspeth, blood baron, aetherling or assemble, they tap out for win con, which they lose, you then get a large beater.
mono black devotion:
this match up seemed pretty simple to me, the principle thing to watch in this match up is pack rat, he can nullify counter magic, and the only easy way to put the breaks on this is cyclonic rift, deal with it very early or lose the game, otherwise smooth sailing, they rely on threats very vulnerable to counter magic and generally you just chip away at them. simic charm is particularly strong in this match up.
mono blue devotion:
more challenging than i expected, and further reinforces my choice to mainboard skylasher, best case you counter master of waves and thasa and bestow boon satyr on skylasher. aetherize is very important out of the sideboard they often don't swing with master, but otherwise all out attack, this leaves master castrated and them at square one.
gruul midrange:
need to playtest more, although i won the match, seems very swingy, the goal is to ride out the early drops, counter the high curve, and drop a flier bestow a satyr and put them on a 3 turn clock.
uw heroic:
i realize this isn't a meta deck, it did however seem like a hard match up on paper, i was able to win the match but i do imagine these sort of decks will have nut hands this deck just couldn't match.
boros burn:
this is very bad match up, i need to playtest the sideboard against this one, i added scavenging ooze particularly for the match, the life gain, getting phoenix out of the way, and the ability to very quickly grow out of burn range make this guy strong, i imagine bringing in the all creatures, and siding out all the higher end counter and essentially try and outrace and out-combat trick them.
Definitely my favorite spoiler.
4 Frostburn weird
3 Omen speaker
4 Nightveil specter
4 Wall of frost
2 Desecration demon
4 Phenax
4 devour flesh
3 Hero's downfall
3 drown in sorrows
4 Ashiok
2 Jace memory adept
My list is a little different from what i have seen on the forums, i am very happy to see everyone off the desecration demon band wagon, never really understood him in this shell. My list runs a very heavy kill/ burn package, my meta is very aggro, and i have never struggled against control, especially after sb. So here is my list.
3 Sin collector
2 Obzedat, ghost council
2 Blood baron of vizkopa
1 Stormbreath dragon
1 Aurelia, the warleader
3 Chained to the rocks
2 Magma jet
4 Dreadbore
2 doom blade
2 rakdos keyrune
3 Anger of the gods
1 Whip of erebos
3 Warleader's helix
1 chandra pyromaster
1 Rakdos's return
2 temple of silence
2 rakdos guildgate
4 godless shrine
4 blood crypt
4 sacred foundry
1 mutavault
4 mountain
2 plains
2 high priest of penance
1 gift of immortality
3 slaughter games
3 thoughtseize
2 mizzium mortars
1 underworld cerberus
1 sire of insanity
1 blind obedience
As an after thought, high priest and gift are both for aggro, gift is bonkers on sin collector, high priest, reckoner.
I mentioned placing gift on baron, obviously impossible, to swing into advent which also seems mildly useless since he is a 4/4, which is because i meant to say obzedat, on which is it is an okay placement against aggro decks where blinking only serves to cause the trigger, which will happen anyway if the manage to do something fancy with combat/ burn.
Elf ramp will make for some exciting standard plays with this guy.
T1 dork, arbor or mystic
T2 elvish archdruid
T3 garruk, -3 for fatty (worldspine wurm for ultimate stupid)
T4 +1 grab some dudes, cast dudes with 7 mana.
Silliness, i understand the critiques of this guy, he has the right power level in my opinion, i like niche playable walkers, not ones that define formats or break them.
EDIT: also he is way better than any chandra or tibalt or new lili so there is that.
We may have to agree to disagree on this one, out of the suggested creatures while they may seem to have more interactions they really don't, smiter while having no actual ability once he hits the board is still one of the biggest bodies in the meta, other people run him, none of the recommended replacements can beat out an enemy smiter, he also trades with reckoner, something else none if the replacements can do if they have one spare mana, also beats down resto should they need to block like that or can trade with a flipped huntmaster. On top of all this, lili is still a card, and people still run counterspells, if those abilities were on a 3/3 for 2 mana i'd probably tend to agree that it is more sb fodder for control.
On a different note i have been considering knight of infamy, the protection is very relevant, the exalted is a nice perk, the way i see the exalted is added reach, if all is going well it is irrelevant, if the board is clogged maybe i can swing in for a couple points without losing anything, either with his own protection or trample on something else. Thoughts?
What would you suggest in the three spot?
Ah, well i can see that people generally believe that junk/ voice belongs to the sac engine of aristocrats. The token side was my orginal angle, i found the deck didn't have the answers i wanted to midrange decks that just outgrow me, the death and taxes idea is the direction i am going for, i want to punish my opponent for doing things, deny death not encourage it, as for varolz, aristocrats lists run him so i don't understand how he devalues voice. What i am looking for is not so much a different direction, if i wanted to do rites, tokens, or aristocrats i would have posted on those forums, but help with refining the card choices for a tax style deck.
EDIT: also why would loxodon ever be a situational sideboard card?