The "safe" option is just living your life as though it's real, because if you're working at things that make you happy and bettering oneself, then real or not you've improved, at the very least, your perception of yourself. And if you wake up and your new reality is disappointing, then you gave yourself something to aspire to. It's only a waste if you waste it.
Man, why is it that when people ask these questions, it's always "What if everyone else is fake, and I'm the only real one?" They never ask if they're the fakes or the imagined.
If your reality is fictional, then whatever your body tells you is also a falsehood, because dream you is no more real than the people around you. You can safely ignore hunger, and thirst, and relief in all of its forms. Any emotion you've ever had is a falsehood, irrelevant in the face of creation. Your joy with gaming constructs? Irrelevant. Your sadness for loss? Irrelevant. Your anxiety at the perception of reality? Irrelevant. Because, per your own definition, you are emotionally reacting to and bonding with a fictional world, and all of the fictional things in it, which makes you soft in the head.
Honestly, it just kinda feels like you're asking these questions because you want to feel like you matter in a species 7 billion strong, and the life you're currently living isn't providing that for you.
Somehow the position that I might be fake or imagined isn't troublesome. I'm not doing this because I want to, but so far I cannot find a way to definitively put this argument to bed since I cannot prove either side. The argument from ignorance can go both ways on this one. It feels like a shot in the dark on what is essentially the foundation for how I experience and interact with the rest of this reality.
I don't understand how the safe option is to treat it as though it is real. It seems like that is taking a risk that would lead to wasted effort, even if everything else is illusory it is still possible to waste your energy and your efforts. You would not have improved at anything since anything you would have done in that world would not count, it just disappeared in smoke. All the investments you made into things that didn't ultimately exist would make one then doubt whether it is worth it to do the same thing again lest you end up risking it all being illusory and wasting your effort again. It would just continue to build upon itself. To treat this as reality is to take a risk, to do otherwise is to be safe. Because if you did nothing, and it turns out to be false and fake, then you don't lose anything. Losing nothing is far better then believing you had something and to then losing it because the reality is that it never existed.
Doing nothing is the safest response because you don't invest in anything and therefor cannot lose anything. The response you are putting forth is risky with a huge negative outcome, one that I believe most people would not risk at all. Worse then death is the feeling that everything you ever did never existed. I know you would equate death with that, but the difference is that with death (as far as I know) you won't be aware of any of it.
So you aren't offering a safe option, but a huge risk with a relatively moderate reward but with a huge downfall. Even I know that's not a logical thing to do. That's the sort of choice a gambler makes.
Your second reply really doesn't address the evidence I listed for things being illusory.
You have none. You had no evidence to point out that reality is illusory. You only have the fact that we cannot disprove that it is. That's it.
I stated how dreams can feel real and the fact that there are many sensory illusions that can deceive the senses (optical, auditory, temperature, etc). That's reason enough to doubt whether what we see and experience is actually real.
It seems rather rational. I mean you cannot know whether this is real or not, so your whole life could be a lie and you don't even know it is. We don't work on imaginary goal because the ones we have (assuming we aren't talking about a game) can cause real change and difference in the world. Having it being imaginary makes it rather futile to attempt to do anything. In short, if it was true then it would render life utterly meaningless and not worth living. The fear seems rather justified since no one wants to feel like they are running on a hamster wheel their whole life.
Your stance is
Everything MIGHT be a lie. And thus your entire life should come to a stop because if it isn't real whats the point and if it is real, are you sure it's real?
How is this rational? Even if we assume that both sides are equally likely, you are proposing living as though the worse side is the absolute truth and the other one is unlikely. This is paranoia, it is irrational at its foundation.
Even if everything is a lie so what? How is things be imaginary make everything pointless? You haven't given a good reason to live as though it is a lie rather than assume it is real. While the reason to live as though it isn't a lie is fairly good. Crippling fear of the worst case isn't really rational.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
For imaginary people and their feelings. Are we talking figments of our own or someones else's imagination? Or advanced AI's? Either way why do they not have feelings? Why don't their feelings matter? As I said already I can't be certain you are in fact real and yet I am assuming you have feelings and am treating you far nicer than the people I interact with physically on a daily basis.
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
Why do you get to decide that these people's feelings don't matter? What gives you the authority to disregard the reality they live? Especially when you currently fear living in a similar reality?
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
So the worst case scenario is everything in your life is futile and useless means don't do anything. Instead lets say the worse case scenario is if you do anything you will die(This is a real worst case scenario), however if you don't do anything you will die(again a real worst case scenario). Looking at the world like this everything being imaginary is no worse than the worst case if everything is real.
The point is that living as though it is a lie means you would not have wasted any effort or time feeding into an illusion. It's a "safe" response. It's not paranoid at all, although I wish it was. It's taking the surest precautions you have available. There is nothing worse for humans than the feeling that they have wasted their lives, even death is preferable to that. It is rational to prepare for the worst case scenario, you should know that. This would entail living as such.
Your worst case scenario isn't bad at all. It would be a relief for some actually. The one I have presented is far worse because you are in a reality where nothing you do has any real impact and your efforts are truly fruitless. It's like being dead in the sense, but far worse since you are aware of the waste of your life.
Imaginary things don't have feelings, by definition. They have to exist for that to occur. Your feelings for imaginary characters don't mean anything because the object of those feelings is nonexistent. That's just how it is.
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
It seems to me like this line of thinking is leading you to believe yourself better than others. Might wanna be careful there, buddy.
If you're really so afraid that this is all a dream, consider the equally important question of "What if it isn't?"
Except this line of thinking is the reality, and I can't turn away just because I don't like it.
The possibility of this being real is a moot point since the problem is not knowing it isn't.
Some people don't think like that. The thought literally never occurs to them.
As for those that do, some do crumble under the pressure. Like, the whole "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know" trope has a small origin in such a thing.
But, the flip side is: If everything is imaginary, then your actions literally define the world. So the world becomes whatever you wish to make of it. You are the only one that "matters" in that mindset. That can lead to some good or bad things, depending on the person. But you're still interacting with something, even if it's just a part of yourself. And ya know, treat others as you'd treat yourself and all that.
Additionally, let's say that you know for 100% certainty that everything around you is as real as you are. There would still be an infinite amount of things you wouldn't know. Maybe this is the day the sun blows up. Maybe this is the day you find out you've had a long-lost relative. Maybe today you get mugged. Maybe this is the day you save someone's life. There's so much possibility for change out there in the world, and change can be as terrifying as it is enthralling. People have those same uncertainties every day, and yet: Life happens. People go out and live, knowing all the dangers. It doesn't cripple them any more than the knowledge that it might all be a dream.
And this is the pessimist in me, but I have a significant amount of trouble believing that anyone is so intelligent as to create a couple billion avatars that interact with each other in both micro and macrocosms, discovering the science behind things that they've never once examined; creating art in every genre and form; having debates with themselves about that previously mentioned science; pioneering any number of governmental, economic, and religious systems; and doing it all over the course of millenia.
It seems far more likely that if it's all imaginary, then so is the one claiming it.
Which makes you equal in the sense of the imaginary.
And in the end, if you don't think the long-term effects of your actions are impactful, then it doesn't hurt to try. Just maximize short-term with consideration for long-term.
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
It seems rather rational. I mean you cannot know whether this is real or not, so your whole life could be a lie and you don't even know it is. We don't work on imaginary goal because the ones we have (assuming we aren't talking about a game) can cause real change and difference in the world. Having it being imaginary makes it rather futile to attempt to do anything. In short, if it was true then it would render life utterly meaningless and not worth living. The fear seems rather justified since no one wants to feel like they are running on a hamster wheel their whole life.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
Your second reply really doesn't address the evidence I listed for things being illusory. Nor does it address the point I am trying to get at (none of your words do really).
I'm saying that given such a possibility, how can people not crumble underneath it? How can they just act like nothing is wrong when they can't know which situation is true one way or the other? Even if you did "wake up" from this illusion (if it was an illusion), you cannot be sure that what you wake to is any more real than where you previously were.
How can people live with the uncertainty about such a thing that serves as the foundation for everything else in their lives? If it ends up being imaginary than what of your accomplishments and friends? Neither truly existed to begin with, and there is no reason to treat illusory people in the same manner as real ones. Any emotions or feelings such people would have would not matter because they aren't real, it's like a character in a game saying that to you. It means nothing.
Given how bad such a possibility would be, how can people do anything at all if they cannot know one way or the other?
It just seems to me that the implications of such an idea being true are so bad that how can one not crumble under it?
Also it's one thing when you are doing it in a game and pretending things to be real, but it's another point entirely when everything you know could be imaginary. How do you function under that?
So far the only information that might hint at it being so are the act of dreaming, that our memory is fallible, and that our senses are not only imperfect but can be fooled by various illusions.
I had a brush with solipsism, and it got me thinking....can we really be certain that the things around us exist and are real? If they aren't then why bother trying to do anything or accomplish anything in an imaginary world then? Why treat the people as you would if they were real? What if they were imaginary? Then the whole rule of ethics and morality does not apply to them at all. Those that one knew as friends or family are just imaginary objects. How could one possibly feel anything at all for an illusory figure. Living life in a sense becomes a waste of time, since everything is imaginary then any sort of achievement you would have done is null and void since you technically did not "do" anything.
Granted that is if it is true, but it seems to me that Solipsism being true is essentially the same thing as death. I know that most would say that one cannot know for sure and just leave it at that, but how? How can one possibly ignore a theory that would be so destructive to one's mind and senses if proven true? How does one live with that notion in their mind each day? Never knowing the answer and not being able to. How does one reconcile that with science and the other rules to live by?
I guess I'm trying to get at how one lives with uncertainty like that since philosophy doesn't seem to give a definitive answer to questions, and yet it's supposed to be the pursuit of wisdom (especially asking things like "what is reality"). Sorry about the title, was just trying to find the right words for this.
I am frankly a pretty lax person when it comes to games as it takes quite a bit to get under my skin and I don't ask for much. But magic players as a group have been the ones who really test my patience. I have had more civility over monopoly than Magic. Especially when it comes to my favorite format EDH. I have never seen people get so worked up over a game with nothing on the line. I'm not a big fan of the other formats really, but I love the feel and concept of EDH. Just sucks that it is the place that attracts a bad crowd.
I want to like this game, but the people make it hard. They really kill the fun out of the game.
AzureDuality, if hanging out with cool people, laughing, trash talking, and enjoying playing Magic is intolerable to you, then I wouldn't know what to say. The point of playing Magic is having fun, right? If not, I've been doing it wrong for over 22 years.
Fun is a rather subjective term really, same with cool. I don't appreciate trash talking and I have my own way of enjoying the game. I really am just asking for civility without feeling like I'm at a sports bar.
AzureDuality, l've been playing since '94. I've played in places all over Nor. Cal, Seattle, Portland and the Oregon Coast. They vast majority of people I've met and played with have been awesome. I've also encountered every negative sterotype out there as well. Maybe the area where you live has an overabundance of the latter. I've also noticed that the people who claim "it's everybody else, not me", it really is just them. No offence but maybe you're hyper sensitive a d hyper judgemental at the same time. Sorry if people don't conform to your unrealistic expectations. Sometimes you have give folks the benefit of the doubt. I'm an obnoxious extravert, but I'm hella fun to hamg with and have many great peeps to play Magic with. If you were to judge me by my loud exterior you'd miss the opportunity of get to know me. Many people fit that category. So maybe you're arrogant and insecure, that's how your posts come across to me. People, you cam't live with them and you can't kill them, so might as well learn some social skills and get along. There are people who I don't enjoy playing with, and I have no problem letting them know it, but I'm also civil about it. I mean really, how cool do you think you are?
You are kind of proving my point about they player base. I ask for civility and little else and people can't seem to manage that much. Hearing people like you say otherwise makes me think about "if you want to hide a tree then use a forest". Your definition of awesome could be intolerable to others.
And I have given people the benefit of the doubt before, but it does not change much in the end.
I still disagree that Magic is about playing with others. I think if they knew what people were like they wouldn't say that.
Also you're trying make up excuses to cover up how bad the player base is for Magic. Ending up on the wrong side of variance is a weak response to was seems to be an obvious reality.
I really think you are trolling.
If this isn't, that is not an issue with playing magic.
What makes you the one that knows best? That is the kind of attitude a 13-old boy has, and I really hope you have not yet come to age.
What obvious reality you are referring to? probably not the one I live.
Are you really sure you're not making a huge generalization? Do you really know "the player base"? You don't know me, so your argument is surely invalid.
Somehow the position that I might be fake or imagined isn't troublesome. I'm not doing this because I want to, but so far I cannot find a way to definitively put this argument to bed since I cannot prove either side. The argument from ignorance can go both ways on this one. It feels like a shot in the dark on what is essentially the foundation for how I experience and interact with the rest of this reality.
I don't understand how the safe option is to treat it as though it is real. It seems like that is taking a risk that would lead to wasted effort, even if everything else is illusory it is still possible to waste your energy and your efforts. You would not have improved at anything since anything you would have done in that world would not count, it just disappeared in smoke. All the investments you made into things that didn't ultimately exist would make one then doubt whether it is worth it to do the same thing again lest you end up risking it all being illusory and wasting your effort again. It would just continue to build upon itself. To treat this as reality is to take a risk, to do otherwise is to be safe. Because if you did nothing, and it turns out to be false and fake, then you don't lose anything. Losing nothing is far better then believing you had something and to then losing it because the reality is that it never existed.
Doing nothing is the safest response because you don't invest in anything and therefor cannot lose anything. The response you are putting forth is risky with a huge negative outcome, one that I believe most people would not risk at all. Worse then death is the feeling that everything you ever did never existed. I know you would equate death with that, but the difference is that with death (as far as I know) you won't be aware of any of it.
So you aren't offering a safe option, but a huge risk with a relatively moderate reward but with a huge downfall. Even I know that's not a logical thing to do. That's the sort of choice a gambler makes.
I stated how dreams can feel real and the fact that there are many sensory illusions that can deceive the senses (optical, auditory, temperature, etc). That's reason enough to doubt whether what we see and experience is actually real.
The point is that living as though it is a lie means you would not have wasted any effort or time feeding into an illusion. It's a "safe" response. It's not paranoid at all, although I wish it was. It's taking the surest precautions you have available. There is nothing worse for humans than the feeling that they have wasted their lives, even death is preferable to that. It is rational to prepare for the worst case scenario, you should know that. This would entail living as such.
Your worst case scenario isn't bad at all. It would be a relief for some actually. The one I have presented is far worse because you are in a reality where nothing you do has any real impact and your efforts are truly fruitless. It's like being dead in the sense, but far worse since you are aware of the waste of your life.
Imaginary things don't have feelings, by definition. They have to exist for that to occur. Your feelings for imaginary characters don't mean anything because the object of those feelings is nonexistent. That's just how it is.
Except this line of thinking is the reality, and I can't turn away just because I don't like it.
The possibility of this being real is a moot point since the problem is not knowing it isn't.
Except when that single possibility threatens to unravel everything you believed in up to that point and leaves you with nothing to cope with it, then it becomes crippling. You are mistaken in that people don't think about any of those possibilities. If they did then they would hardly get anything done. They don't know all the dangers, they just assume that they will be fine the next day. I think you are overestimating the general population. Not like they can comprehend the implications of everything being a dream.
The point about imaginary people is that they have no feelings or any of the things that people do, so there is no reason to treat them as real. You can treat them however you want since there is no consequences which is the main reason we treat people as real (because there is a punishment for doing otherwise).
Even though people make bonds with fictional characters, they still ultimately mean nothing (even though they refuse to accept that fact). Plus I tend to regard anyone who does that as soft in the head.
And from what I have gathered, the possibility is that bad. It makes life pointless to live anymore. When the worst case scenario is that everything you do is futile and useless then it seems rather justified that one should fear it being true. That those who don't are simply unable to grasp the implications of such a thing,
I'm saying that given such a possibility, how can people not crumble underneath it? How can they just act like nothing is wrong when they can't know which situation is true one way or the other? Even if you did "wake up" from this illusion (if it was an illusion), you cannot be sure that what you wake to is any more real than where you previously were.
How can people live with the uncertainty about such a thing that serves as the foundation for everything else in their lives? If it ends up being imaginary than what of your accomplishments and friends? Neither truly existed to begin with, and there is no reason to treat illusory people in the same manner as real ones. Any emotions or feelings such people would have would not matter because they aren't real, it's like a character in a game saying that to you. It means nothing.
Given how bad such a possibility would be, how can people do anything at all if they cannot know one way or the other?
Also it's one thing when you are doing it in a game and pretending things to be real, but it's another point entirely when everything you know could be imaginary. How do you function under that?
So far the only information that might hint at it being so are the act of dreaming, that our memory is fallible, and that our senses are not only imperfect but can be fooled by various illusions.
I had a brush with solipsism, and it got me thinking....can we really be certain that the things around us exist and are real? If they aren't then why bother trying to do anything or accomplish anything in an imaginary world then? Why treat the people as you would if they were real? What if they were imaginary? Then the whole rule of ethics and morality does not apply to them at all. Those that one knew as friends or family are just imaginary objects. How could one possibly feel anything at all for an illusory figure. Living life in a sense becomes a waste of time, since everything is imaginary then any sort of achievement you would have done is null and void since you technically did not "do" anything.
Granted that is if it is true, but it seems to me that Solipsism being true is essentially the same thing as death. I know that most would say that one cannot know for sure and just leave it at that, but how? How can one possibly ignore a theory that would be so destructive to one's mind and senses if proven true? How does one live with that notion in their mind each day? Never knowing the answer and not being able to. How does one reconcile that with science and the other rules to live by?
I guess I'm trying to get at how one lives with uncertainty like that since philosophy doesn't seem to give a definitive answer to questions, and yet it's supposed to be the pursuit of wisdom (especially asking things like "what is reality"). Sorry about the title, was just trying to find the right words for this.
I want to like this game, but the people make it hard. They really kill the fun out of the game.
Fun is a rather subjective term really, same with cool. I don't appreciate trash talking and I have my own way of enjoying the game. I really am just asking for civility without feeling like I'm at a sports bar.
Haven't really had a problem with netdecking, but in EDH you do find the same generals being run a lot. Plus a few "obvious" choices.
You are kind of proving my point about they player base. I ask for civility and little else and people can't seem to manage that much. Hearing people like you say otherwise makes me think about "if you want to hide a tree then use a forest". Your definition of awesome could be intolerable to others.
And I have given people the benefit of the doubt before, but it does not change much in the end.
One can only guess.