If I was attending a major event then maybe I would add 2 Hallowed Moonlights to the board. All I play atm is FNM and we have 0 rally decks.
Wail is best on T2 I agree, having to adjust the mana base to accommodate that I don't know. Connection is probably better in my version of the deck due to being able to hold Wail/Return up, tinkering with the mana base to fit in T2 colourless is proving more difficult but maybe more utility lands? or possibly 4 corrupted crossroads? helps cast Return on time.
If atarka red/devoid picks up post OGW then Offshoots may be better main board but for now I don't like dead cards vs Abzan/Dark Jeskai, Return helps lock up the dragons matchup as occasionally a T5 ojutai backed with counter spells was enough if I don't draw Ulamog.
Yea World Breaker looks awesome. Are most people not going the Rattleclaw Mystic/Jaddi Offshot/Hangarback route now?
I've been off the Hangarback/Rattleclaw train for awhile now.
-Hangarback is only good late game to trigger Sanctum
Why? You cast him on 2 and you never pump him until WAY later in the game. You'd rather cast Natural Connection/Map the Wastes on T3 and Exploading Vegies on Turn 4 and more ramp probably after that.
At this point you have a bad wearbear that makes a 1/1 flier on death.
I also NEVER liked hangarback after realizing that you're either wasting damage by pumping it or doing mediocre damage of 1 or 2 per turn and not pumping it.
-Rattleclaw is just Wild Slash/Fiery Impulse/X Removal spell fodder. Also after doing a T3 vegies so many times, it's gotten to the point where it just feels mediocre to me.
I don't know, just my thoughts.
Here's another thought however...
Are people testing Endbringer as a 1 of? How is it? Every time I've been able to cast him I didn't want to for the fact that I had better things to do with my mana.
I don't like the idea of cutting Marsh Flats entirely, but I could appreciate reducing the numbers to 2-3 to accommodate a 1-off Wastes.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
My mana base is as follows and I find it very strong. I no longer feel worried about slow or inconsistent mana at all (lots of duals, few colorless, no taplands). I plan to run Thought-Knot Seer post-OGW and then I will have 4 Caves of Koilos and probably lose a Shrine and a Flats maybe, or maybe 2 Shrines and keep the Flats.
If you do what you say you're going to do, you are going to have 10 sources of C. I suspect it will be difficult for you to cast Thought-Knot Seer consistently on so few C sources.
I count 11 4 Cave, 4 temple, 2 GQ, 1 Vault but I am with you in thinking.... I am probably going to cut out my fetches altogether. Here is my future landbase (most likely, it does keep changing)
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Your color balance is super-low to cast B and W spells early. You need many dual sources and few mono-W or B (or C!). Post-Oath, Caves of Koilos will a mandatory 4-of. I agree that Strangler is too conditional and I run 3 MB Spellskites, which are such a surprise, and so strong (fetch off Eye!).
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
I only own 1 damnation. Any suggestions to remove/add to help fix my mana?
Your curve is WAY too high. Ruin Processors cost way too much for what they do and should be SB if included at all. Secondly, I highly disagree with your assessment of Strangler. Between 4 Relics and 4 Paths, I have almost never gotten value off it. It also sits low enough in the curve to chump block aggro decks if you need it to. I'd include the 4x Cave of Kolios if you need help with your mana base.
I can see cutting one, but I want to hedge my bets against burn game 1 if possible.
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Your color balance is super-low to cast B and W spells early. You need many dual sources and few mono-W or B (or C!). Post-Oath, Caves of Koilos will a mandatory 4-of. I agree that Strangler is too conditional and I run 3 MB Spellskites, which are such a surprise, and so strong (fetch off Eye!).
For Tron (and Scapeshift it should be added) I have warped my board to have 2x Map and 3x Surgical Extraction but no Celestial Purge. (This set-up drew me a match post-board vs. Scapeshift after GQing and Extracting his Valakut in G2.) Ghost Quarter is not enough by itself, you need Extraction, because the land decks are too consistent. Map will also help with Blood Moon-type effects where Quarter would not.
For sweepers I am considering Languish over Damnation but own only the latter; the rhino, the Banana King and the zombie fish are still a thing, so I don't know.
I only own 1 damnation. Any suggestions to remove/add to help fix my mana?
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
Game 1: Kept a 2 lander when I shouldn't of couldn't get past 3-4 mana for the longest time and slowly died to a lone doomed traveler with blood artist and cutthroat on the board so removal was pointless.
Game 2: Really grindy game but eventually I got there with 8 life left and landed a deaths hold and he scooped.
Game 3: Turn 0 Leyline, auto scoop. I felt bad, for I knew him well and he's a nice guy.
Game 1: Again mulled to oblivion with stuck on 2-3 lands he natural draws tron eventually and lands Karn followed by Ugin, into Ulamog. Scoop.
Game 2: Again stuck on 4 Mana this time but Karn into Conduit of Ruin into Ulamog seals the deal again.
-1 Doomblade
-1 Dismember
-1 Damnation
-1 All of Dust
+2 Duress
+2 Stony Silence
Round 3: Mono R Burn
Game 1: Couldn't get there and drew into way too much burn for me to live.
Game 2: Grindy game where he kept a risky hand and stalled out long enough for me to get the herder beats.
Game 3: Now HERE is where I lived the decks ABSOLUTE DREAM! I am at 9 life with 2 cards in my hand: Path and Blight Herder I have 6 mana available he empties his hand and casts 2 suspended rift bolts. At first I was like: well... butts. I then pray for a top decked leyline so I can cast it, didn't get it but then I realize: wait a sec... I can put them from exile into the grave and make them fizzle! So I do that and explain the interaction with processing suspended cards and is blown away by it but takes it lightly and we have a good laugh as he bricks on lands and get the 7 power beats. We shake hands and have a good laugh at the blow out.
This made my night.
+1 Weary
+3 Leyline
+2 Purge
+2 Duress
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Damnation
-1 All is Dust
-1 Kozilek
-2 Ulamog
Round 4: Abzan Human Tribal
Game 1: Again mulled to 5 and stalled on 3 mana, he got his human beats on got too many dudes for my 1 for 1 removal to handle.
Game 2: Kept a 4 lander on 7 card hand and slowly grinded my life away but I managed to 1 for 1 more effectivlely as well as make enough souls to chump and grind our his guys, eventually blight herder and sower got their beats after I cursed him with a death's hold.
Game 3: A much closer game which may been his game but he used a thoughtseize on a damnation and not on ulamog when he could of duress'd it away instead but the same thing happened with me blocking with souls and 1 for 1'ing him slowly and cast my 2nd ulamog which I eye'd for and that was that.
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
Another food for thought. Why aren't we using Natural Connection over Map the Wastes? The bolster has only been useful 20% of the time and even then I don't think the bolster was particularly game-breaking for me. I think I'd rather have the instant speed over the bolster at this point.
While DL Atarka is a great card and has filled an important spot in this deck, I think Kozilek's return completely replaces him. The early sweeper is important and having another big eldrazi in Atarka's place to trigger the flashback, ie. World Breaker, plays more in line with what the deck try's to do.
I really like reality smasher but I don't see him as main deckable. I generally win game 1 by people scooping to ulamog or being milled out, so damage isn't often a big factor. Post Sideboard the deck is often forced to win by damage due to infinite obliteration snagging Ulamog so this is where I feel smasher will shine.
Another thing I've been considering Post OGW, is that colorless/devoid will be much more prevalent in a range of decks. Because of that I'm dropping down to 3 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon. Up till now he's been key to a lot of match-ups but with Kozilek's return he won't be as make-or-break as he used to be.
You make a good point about Ugin. I'll drop him down to 3 as well.
Just to stir up some conversation,
Key cards that are likely to be included in future iterations of this deck:
1. kozilek, the great distortion - the big papa himself. While he has a powerful effect, I can't imagine running more than 1 main deck due to Ulamog being the better finisher
2. Kozilek's return - This is the early game sweeper we needed and will make the loss of ugin much easier after he rotates. Currently testing 3 MB and 1 SB.
3. World Breaker - I really like this card. Its a big threat, triggers Sanctum of Ugin, is recurrable, and ruins mana bases. Testing this in place of Dragonlord Atarka since he wont be as necessary with Kozilek's return.
4. reality smasher - currently running Gaea's revenge in the Sb against control but the ability to be chumped has come up on several occasions. Smasher might be a solid addition to the SB to increase the number of threats to combat infinite obliteration and control match-ups.
5. thought-knot seer - Not sure if this has a place here but I'm currently testing 2 in SB. Like smasher, hes another threat to diversify with and could be effective against match-ups like jeskai where taking a sideboarded counterspell could put us in position to drop a bomb and win.
6. Ruin in their wake - I really wanted this card not to suck. As is, having to rework the mana base in hopes of a turn 2 waste in play doesn't sound feasible or effective. It may be possible with evolving wilds but for now I'm sticking to rattleclaw
1. I am running 1 in my post OGW deck.
2. This card will be bonkers. I am running 2/2 in main/side.
3. This card looks sweet but Atarka is better in our bad MUs.
4. This card will do work. Most certainly replacing Whisperwood Elemental in the main. I will be running 3/1 in the main/side.
5. Not sure on this card. Our control MUs are good enough as is, I usually just smash through their counters anyhow. Also Ulamog/Kozilek don't care about getting countered.
6. No sadly, this card isn't worth dropping red. I have enough of a time getting a forest in my opener as is.
So I found that some people were talking about Evil Presence as tech for tron, but why not use Contaminated Ground instead? The two life could be really relevant. There is an argument to say that this could be bad on the the draw however. So I can see why [c]evil presence[c] could be preferred over it.
Sadly we lose Ugin which is HUGE. Thankfully enough that's all we lose however.
Offshoots aren't really even dead against Abzan OR Jeskai Black. They still net you life in form of landfalls and blocks.
I've been off the Hangarback/Rattleclaw train for awhile now.
-Hangarback is only good late game to trigger Sanctum
Why? You cast him on 2 and you never pump him until WAY later in the game. You'd rather cast Natural Connection/Map the Wastes on T3 and Exploading Vegies on Turn 4 and more ramp probably after that.
At this point you have a bad wearbear that makes a 1/1 flier on death.
I also NEVER liked hangarback after realizing that you're either wasting damage by pumping it or doing mediocre damage of 1 or 2 per turn and not pumping it.
-Rattleclaw is just Wild Slash/Fiery Impulse/X Removal spell fodder. Also after doing a T3 vegies so many times, it's gotten to the point where it just feels mediocre to me.
I don't know, just my thoughts.
Here's another thought however...
Are people testing Endbringer as a 1 of? How is it? Every time I've been able to cast him I didn't want to for the fact that I had better things to do with my mana.
I agree, plus bring able to have a godless shrine Turns 1-3 is awesome for a deck like this.
I took out a Bojuka Bog and a Cavern of Souls to accommodate 2 Caves of Koilos. I also ditched a Ruin Processor for a Spellskite, I'll see how it tests out.
I'm liking the 1 of Wreckage, that card I can see doing work.
I can see cutting one, but I want to hedge my bets against burn game 1 if possible.
I only own 1 damnation. Any suggestions to remove/add to help fix my mana?
First of all, NO stranglers in my build. I do not think this card is as good people think it is. Honestly, if I wanted to -3/-3 something, I'd run bile blight which can 2-5 for 1 things sometimes. I also don't run enough exile effects in the deck. When I tried him, he simply was a 2-3 mana for 3/2 body in the early game. I dropped my 3 I had in the main for: Damnation, Go for the Throat, and a 2nd Ruin Processor.
3 Swamp
3 Marsh Flats
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Shambling Vents
3 Godless Shrine
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Oblivion Sower
2 Ruin Processor
2 Ulamog, Ceaseless Hunger
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Path to Exile
1 Go for the Throat
1 Doomblade
1 Dismember
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
1 All is Dust
1 Damnation
1 Expedition Map
4 Relic of Progenitus
Sideboard
2 Duress
1 Rest for the Weary
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Spellskite
1 Curse of Death's Hold
2 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silince
Round 1: WBr Aristocrats?
Game 1: Kept a 2 lander when I shouldn't of couldn't get past 3-4 mana for the longest time and slowly died to a lone doomed traveler with blood artist and cutthroat on the board so removal was pointless.
Game 2: Really grindy game but eventually I got there with 8 life left and landed a deaths hold and he scooped.
Game 3: Turn 0 Leyline, auto scoop. I felt bad, for I knew him well and he's a nice guy.
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Ulamog
-1 Kozilek
-1 Doomblade
-1 Dismember
+3 Leyline
+1 Languish
+1 Weary
+2 Purge
Round 2: Not the Usual U Tron but a brew of it.
Game 1: Again mulled to oblivion with stuck on 2-3 lands he natural draws tron eventually and lands Karn followed by Ugin, into Ulamog. Scoop.
Game 2: Again stuck on 4 Mana this time but Karn into Conduit of Ruin into Ulamog seals the deal again.
-1 Doomblade
-1 Dismember
-1 Damnation
-1 All of Dust
+2 Duress
+2 Stony Silence
Round 3: Mono R Burn
Game 1: Couldn't get there and drew into way too much burn for me to live.
Game 2: Grindy game where he kept a risky hand and stalled out long enough for me to get the herder beats.
Game 3: Now HERE is where I lived the decks ABSOLUTE DREAM! I am at 9 life with 2 cards in my hand: Path and Blight Herder I have 6 mana available he empties his hand and casts 2 suspended rift bolts. At first I was like: well... butts. I then pray for a top decked leyline so I can cast it, didn't get it but then I realize: wait a sec... I can put them from exile into the grave and make them fizzle! So I do that and explain the interaction with processing suspended cards and is blown away by it but takes it lightly and we have a good laugh as he bricks on lands and get the 7 power beats. We shake hands and have a good laugh at the blow out.
This made my night.
+1 Weary
+3 Leyline
+2 Purge
+2 Duress
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Damnation
-1 All is Dust
-1 Kozilek
-2 Ulamog
Round 4: Abzan Human Tribal
Game 1: Again mulled to 5 and stalled on 3 mana, he got his human beats on got too many dudes for my 1 for 1 removal to handle.
Game 2: Kept a 4 lander on 7 card hand and slowly grinded my life away but I managed to 1 for 1 more effectivlely as well as make enough souls to chump and grind our his guys, eventually blight herder and sower got their beats after I cursed him with a death's hold.
Game 3: A much closer game which may been his game but he used a thoughtseize on a damnation and not on ulamog when he could of duress'd it away instead but the same thing happened with me blocking with souls and 1 for 1'ing him slowly and cast my 2nd ulamog which I eye'd for and that was that.
-3 Thoughtseize
-1 Kozilek
-1 Doomblade
+1 Death's hold
+1 Weary
+1 Languish
+2 Purge
Some concerns on my build:
1. The manabase is a bit clunky, any suggestions to make it less clunky? I did mull alot due to seeing hands of consisting of: GQ and Temple, Plains and Temple, Eye and Plains or 1 landers even.
2. Any sweet anti-tron tech people want to share? I would like to make my MU better but I don't feel GQ's and discard are enough.
You make a good point about Ugin. I'll drop him down to 3 as well.
1. I am running 1 in my post OGW deck.
2. This card will be bonkers. I am running 2/2 in main/side.
3. This card looks sweet but Atarka is better in our bad MUs.
4. This card will do work. Most certainly replacing Whisperwood Elemental in the main. I will be running 3/1 in the main/side.
5. Not sure on this card. Our control MUs are good enough as is, I usually just smash through their counters anyhow. Also Ulamog/Kozilek don't care about getting countered.
6. No sadly, this card isn't worth dropping red. I have enough of a time getting a forest in my opener as is.
Here's my post OGW list if anyone is interested.
3 Reality Smasher
1 Oblivion Sower
1 Endbringer
3 Dragonlord Atarka
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ulamog, Ceaseless Hunger
3 Map the Wastes
2 Kozilek's Return
4 Explosive Vegetables
3 Hedron Archive
4 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
10 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Wastes
1 Plains
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
3 Sanctum of Ugin
1 Sea Gate Ruins
4 Shrine of the Forsaken Gods
Sideboard
1 Reality Smasher
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
3 Winds of Qal Sisma
2 Hallowed Moonlight
3 Rending Volley
3 Roast
I think I may be stretching my manabase a tad too thin here but let me know what you guys think!
3 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
1 Ruin Processor
2 Ulamog, Ceaseless Hunger
4 Path to Exile
1 Doom Blade
1 Dismember
1 All is Dust
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
3 Godless Shrine
2 Shambling Vent
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard
2 Duress
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Stony Silence
1 Damnation
2 Tribute to Hunger
2 Celestial Purge
3 Rest for the Weary
2 Spellskite
What do you guys think?
I'm 4-2 with the deck so far with losses being really close.