"While deck diversity is good, we're keeping an eye on color balance. If there's an easy change to the banned list that could open up more decks in the future, we will examine it when other formats have less pressing needs."
Glad To see they explicitly mention White's lack of play in this format outside of Path and sideboard cards.
Though in all seriousness it appears WOTC is at least AWARE that BOTH WHITE AND BLUE are represented at much lower levels then the other 3 colors in the format. Remember, it's not all about blue.
I know DeathandCatmix and SpiderSpace have been doing work with Copter.
I haven't tested it as much as either of them but i find it to be incredibly important and have found 3 to be the right number. it actually compliments running the set of vial extremely well since you just loot away dead vials you draw in the mid-late game. The sequencing can definitely be a little awkward when you have arbiter thalia and copter in hand on turn 2 but unless i'm being beat down i've found copter to often be the best against an unknown opponent since it lets you dig to our relevant cards in the matchup and gives all our creatures pseudo haste
Please let Stoneforge mystic Free. With all the talk of blue decks i'm still sitting around brewing and trying to make a white deck that can even remotely put up a fight against BGx Ramp and Uxx.
I'd be fine with WOTC trying JTMS in isolation, but if they do i hope it sees a significant supply increase because it's already a $50 card and i can't imagine what will happen if it becomes legal in modern. The secondary market aspect scares me significantly on the JTMS potential unban.
I was perusing the SCG results and saw Jeskai Control (or is it better called flash/Midrange) took first place. While not pushing the table one way or the other it does appear Blue can still be competitive, at least on that level.
I'll start to worry when 2 or more of the top 8 at GP Vancouver are Cheeri0s. Since the combo folds to 1 cmc removal I'm not going to hold my breath.
(and this is coming from a Cheeri0s player; the only deck I've 0-4'd a FNM with).
Interesting I've had a much different experience with the deck. Even if they killed my guy I still seemed to combo off by turn 4 at the latest with gross regularity. Then Again a couple of those games were because i made an army on turn 3 off a monastery mentor maindeck and then retracted and repeated on turn 4 to kill my opponents. I guess it really is all personal experience but I agree with Sheridan the deck is busted. The real tell will be what happens at the GP on camera and especially in the top 8.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was opal they ended up hitting if Cheerios starts putting up T1 numbers.
I know someone on here was playing bant taxes for a while. Was it charons? I have a friend looking to get into D&T and that's the directions he was looking too so i was hoping to find a list to refer him too. If someone has a list they've played to some success I'd love to grab it form you
Also if you want to help me attempt to get modern nexus to group all the D&T variants together feel free to comment on their most recent metagame update article. I've been trying but if more people were vocal it'd probably help the cause.
D&T is down in tier 3 at .6% of the Metagame, but if you combine that with Eldrazi and Taxes listed separately (for some reason...) we're at a combine total of 2.4% of the modern Metagame. Solidly in tier 2. Well done everyone keep on taxing.
Can we please stop the derail to standard meta/banlist?
Yeah, I'll agree on this one, as much as I'd like to continue that conversation its only got a tangential impact on the modern meta outside of figuring out if Walking Ballista is modern playable.
I played 4x Walking Ballista in my Eldrazi Tron deck this week and the card was great for me every time i cast it. Whether on t2 for 1 or on turn 7 for 6. It warps combat and it's just a solid scale-able mana sink. Not to mention picking off Key Creatures like Heritage Druid out of elves or Any of Merfolks lords can't be understated either. While i'm unsure i'd play the card outside of a midrange or ramp deck I could definitely see it having a place in modern going forward.
To Add to the Cheerios Discussion I picked up the deck completely blind at FNM this week and slid to an easy 4-0 defeating Tron, Affinity, Abzan, and Elves I played a total of 10 games. I lost 2 games total (both were mulligans to 4 where i never found a creature) and all my wins were turn 3 kills. I know it's an extremely small sample size, but I will agree with those who said if cheerios starts putting up top 8's and Tier 1 metagame percentage it's getting something taken away.
I don't disagree I'm just confirming it's really one or the other. The real question it comes down to for me is what's the best build for my meta of midrange trying to go over the top of other midrange. One abzan player just played Ajani Unyielding to try to get an edge. it's pretty bad right now in my local meta.
To those splashing Lingering Souls in Wg builds should we be cutting Collected Company? My meta is turning heavily into at least 66% Abzan Esper Jund sultai and Grixis trying to go over the top of each other and i'm not even sure Death and taxes is where i want to be right now with all the damnations and yahenni's expertise running around but i do want to keep making D&T work.
People keep saying this but testing shows that it is not true. (That SFM would slot into abzan) Abzan, especially with push in the meta, may or may not even play SFM. The only matchup it improves more than margin of error is burn, and this testing was done before you could push the germ after your opponent invested 2 full turns into the gameplay.
This idea that you can really test for the how it would perform if it was unbanned is slightly misguided since a card on its power level could alter how multiple decks are built. It has historically been good in grindy mid-range mirrors which is why it would most likely just slide into Abzan. It was very rare for SFM to actually live after it was cast and in combination with lingering souls it would be really good at out valuing other fair decks.
Sure. i agree with that.
However, do you really think that a 2 mana 1/2 that finds an equipment and then if it survives can tap and cheat it into play for 2 mana (of 3 mana available so 2/3rds of the turn) is too good for modern? Is that truly any better than things already going on?
That's the money question. Over 600 games of rigorous testing say, "nope." Given what we know of how WotC decides on unbans, I'd be Shocked if they don't factor that kind of rigorous testing into their decision. The arguments about restricting design space are a red herring since WotC has stated that the design space of "better equipment than Batterskull and Sword of X and Y" design space is off-limits regardless regardless of whether SFM is a card in Modern or not.
I expect Stoneforge Mystic to come off the list within a few years since it upholds a lot of Wizards' format pillars, but I don't actually think the "make W better" pillar is the most important. Criterion 9 is a given - smallest possible banned list. Diversity of decks increases as testing shows Abzan shrugs and goes back to business as usual, white gets the card it needs to be a viable basis for a non-GB midrange shell, and a couple of equipment not named Cranial Plating become playable. That hits Forsythe's criteria 3 (different decks than you'd see in Standard) and 6 (diverse top-tier metagame). Most importantly, though, SFM hits criterion 7 - not dominated by interactivity - because it can be easily interacted with. More easily than ever with Fatal Push killing the germ token for B at instant speed.
That last one is the biggest point in Stoneforge's favor. If aggro-combo decks stay powerful (well, not Infect because lifegain lol flying lol Blighted Agent lol), SFM is the cleanest answer since Baleful Strix to the un-interactivity problem. Ignore your opponent and risk a 4/4 blocker accompanied by an 8-point life swing per turn. Run a little interaction and you out-temp your opponent for an easy blowout since they now havea worthless Batterskull in hand or in play that they'll never be able to do anything with because your deck kills on turn 4. As solutions go, it's actually pretty elegant.
Again, without the Modern Nexus testing, I'd be a lot more hesitant. But that data set allays a lot of my skepticism. And of course like always, this all depends on how the metagame evolves post-bannings and post-Push.
While the "testing" is interesting it is still not really a valid point of information to inform about the affect of a card on the meta-game.
A- the issue that those including myself have with it is that we are not concerned with its affects on those match ups but on the homogeneous affect it will have of the types of fair decks that can be played. Right now its BGx as a clear but not oppressive #1 but the concern is that it would stifle other fair decks from being competitive just adding another trump card for Abzan.
B- While I think that testing like this could be useful you would need to reevaluate every build and redesign so many decks that it is almost impossible to actually do.
I think that the majority of the points you made ignore the point that they don't look to unban cards that go into Tier 1 decks, which Abzan is currently.
I think that reasoning is poor at best. It would be no more homogenizing to fair decks in the format than Dark Confidant, Bolt, Decay, Goyf, and terminate are. 2/3rds of the "best" fair decks start with 4x Tarmogoyf. Whether SFM is a safe unban or would truly slot into abzan isn't an argument I have any interest in having with no real data to back me up, but saying it'd be more homogenizing than goyf Bolt etc doesn't seem like a great reason to keep something banned when more homogenizing cards already exist and no one seems to take issue with the.
Round 1: Drew with a slow lantern player unintentionally. It stunk but it happens. 0-0-1
Round 2: Played against burn. Game one i won the die roll and was able to curve hierach into Thalia Guardian of thraben into spellskite. When he finally was able to double burn skite i Resto'd it with the second spell on the stack and proceeded to beat down from there. Game 2 was tough. He curved Guide into Eidolon, Eidolon, Eidolon. I was dead on turn 4. Game 3 I mulled to five keeping Horizon Canopy, Hierarch, Coco, Resto. Turn one I played hiercach and passed. my opponent played Goblin Guide and attacked and i revealed a ghost quarter. Turn two I played a Selfless Spirit i drew after the GQ and passed. His turn two he played a Footihills, bolted spirit and swung in revealing arbiter. turn 3 i cast arbiter and he doesn't respond by cracking his foothills. I proceed to GQ his one mana producing land and he drew fetches for the rest of the game. I won 2-1. Was then 1-0-1.
Round 3: Played against jund. He out midranged me game one but in games 2 and 3 with a combination of Brimaz RIP and Gideon and Courser let me outgrind him and prevail in the match 2-1. 2-0-1
Round 4: Mono Blue tron opponent mulled to 5 game one and had natural tron O-stone and Platinum angel. Opponent was playing a little slow so i conceded to him to try t have enough time to finish the match even though he was at -3 life and i had 3 wisp 4 paths as outs. Games 2 and 3 Ghost Quarters and E-wit locked him out of the game pretty effectively. Won 2-1. 3-0-1
Well I guess it's good to hear they might start printing minimal hate and slightly stronger answers starting in at least 1 year down the road. Here's hoping we don't lose faith in the format in the meantime.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
I'm a little confused. I certainly see you're argument for the first paragraph but how does Simian Spirit Guide limit design space? What do you mean by that?
Because the mana cost on cards are often the only thing that constrains them from doing things that destroy a format. Some cards become much more powerful then they were intended if mana costs are altered even a little. It's an enabler of the type of problems we try to avoid.
And since Force of Will is not a modern card there isn't nearly as much "all-in" punishment as there would be in other formats.
Many, many pros have discussed the idea of removing SSG from the meta for a long time. It's not a new idea. Nor is it extreme.
All right I never claimed it was a new idea or extreme i was just curious as to why you thought it restricted design space. I feel as though by that logic we should be looking at banning all ramp cards as well as they effectively reduce the mana costs of cards in the same way don't they?
Most of those things can be either countered or killed. SSG can be exiled anytime you have priority. Mana dorks have summoning sickness, artifact ramp tends to have an upfornt card or a restriction (like Mox Opal-Legendary+metalcraft).
sure but i think that's a little disingenious and not really an answer. just because something can be countered or dies to doomblade doesn't mean it always will and to believe otherwise seems a little foolish. Tron is a whole different beast as the decks is filled with redundant ways to consistently find their "ramp spells" so having 1 or even 2 ways to kill a land in modern is often not enough to stop tron.
To be clear I'm fine with all of these cards existing in modern (however much i might dislike tron and valakut strategies) I just don't see the argument for SSG right now other than it's unfun to play against and it's often used to try to do degenerate things and those two things aren't enough for it to warrant a ban yet.
I want to highlight this post because its the perfect example of why constant banning is bad:
Yes people are talking about valakut being banned. Why not? If it does well, it could be. That is Ban mania. Also assuming Spirit Guide, a card that sees less than 4 total percent in the meta should be banned... IS ALSO BAN MANIA
And your not to blame! Wizards has set the precedent. If its good, we will ban it.
Talk of banning Spirit Guide CERTAINLY isn't banmania. It makes no difference what it's metashare is. It's an instant speed, uncounterable (red) lotus petal. It's always involved with decks trying to do unfair and often unfun things like cheap out blood moon or cheap out chalice of the void, play an early reanimate of griselbrand, etc, etc.
The card is an enabler of bad magic and therefore is always the subject of this kind of discussion because it really limits design space.
I'm a little confused. I certainly see you're argument for the first paragraph but how does Simian Spirit Guide limit design space? What do you mean by that?
Because the mana cost on cards are often the only thing that constrains them from doing things that destroy a format. Some cards become much more powerful then they were intended if mana costs are altered even a little. It's an enabler of the type of problems we try to avoid.
And since Force of Will is not a modern card there isn't nearly as much "all-in" punishment as there would be in other formats.
Many, many pros have discussed the idea of removing SSG from the meta for a long time. It's not a new idea. Nor is it extreme.
All right I never claimed it was a new idea or extreme i was just curious as to why you thought it restricted design space. I feel as though by that logic we should be looking at banning all ramp cards as well as they effectively reduce the mana costs of cards in the same way don't they?
Glad To see they explicitly mention White's lack of play in this format outside of Path and sideboard cards.
Though in all seriousness it appears WOTC is at least AWARE that BOTH WHITE AND BLUE are represented at much lower levels then the other 3 colors in the format. Remember, it's not all about blue.
I haven't tested it as much as either of them but i find it to be incredibly important and have found 3 to be the right number. it actually compliments running the set of vial extremely well since you just loot away dead vials you draw in the mid-late game. The sequencing can definitely be a little awkward when you have arbiter thalia and copter in hand on turn 2 but unless i'm being beat down i've found copter to often be the best against an unknown opponent since it lets you dig to our relevant cards in the matchup and gives all our creatures pseudo haste
I'd be fine with WOTC trying JTMS in isolation, but if they do i hope it sees a significant supply increase because it's already a $50 card and i can't imagine what will happen if it becomes legal in modern. The secondary market aspect scares me significantly on the JTMS potential unban.
The Winning deck
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111792
the events top 16
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t[C1]=28&start_date=02/17/2017&end_date=02/19/2017&start=1&finish=16&event_ID=36&city=Baltimore
Interesting I've had a much different experience with the deck. Even if they killed my guy I still seemed to combo off by turn 4 at the latest with gross regularity. Then Again a couple of those games were because i made an army on turn 3 off a monastery mentor maindeck and then retracted and repeated on turn 4 to kill my opponents. I guess it really is all personal experience but I agree with Sheridan the deck is busted. The real tell will be what happens at the GP on camera and especially in the top 8.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was opal they ended up hitting if Cheerios starts putting up T1 numbers.
Also if you want to help me attempt to get modern nexus to group all the D&T variants together feel free to comment on their most recent metagame update article. I've been trying but if more people were vocal it'd probably help the cause.
Cheers
http://modernnexus.com/metagame-breakdown-jan-17/
D&T is down in tier 3 at .6% of the Metagame, but if you combine that with Eldrazi and Taxes listed separately (for some reason...) we're at a combine total of 2.4% of the modern Metagame. Solidly in tier 2. Well done everyone keep on taxing.
I played 4x Walking Ballista in my Eldrazi Tron deck this week and the card was great for me every time i cast it. Whether on t2 for 1 or on turn 7 for 6. It warps combat and it's just a solid scale-able mana sink. Not to mention picking off Key Creatures like Heritage Druid out of elves or Any of Merfolks lords can't be understated either. While i'm unsure i'd play the card outside of a midrange or ramp deck I could definitely see it having a place in modern going forward.
To Add to the Cheerios Discussion I picked up the deck completely blind at FNM this week and slid to an easy 4-0 defeating Tron, Affinity, Abzan, and Elves I played a total of 10 games. I lost 2 games total (both were mulligans to 4 where i never found a creature) and all my wins were turn 3 kills. I know it's an extremely small sample size, but I will agree with those who said if cheerios starts putting up top 8's and Tier 1 metagame percentage it's getting something taken away.
I think that reasoning is poor at best. It would be no more homogenizing to fair decks in the format than Dark Confidant, Bolt, Decay, Goyf, and terminate are. 2/3rds of the "best" fair decks start with 4x Tarmogoyf. Whether SFM is a safe unban or would truly slot into abzan isn't an argument I have any interest in having with no real data to back me up, but saying it'd be more homogenizing than goyf Bolt etc doesn't seem like a great reason to keep something banned when more homogenizing cards already exist and no one seems to take issue with the.
Round 1: Drew with a slow lantern player unintentionally. It stunk but it happens. 0-0-1
Round 2: Played against burn. Game one i won the die roll and was able to curve hierach into Thalia Guardian of thraben into spellskite. When he finally was able to double burn skite i Resto'd it with the second spell on the stack and proceeded to beat down from there. Game 2 was tough. He curved Guide into Eidolon, Eidolon, Eidolon. I was dead on turn 4. Game 3 I mulled to five keeping Horizon Canopy, Hierarch, Coco, Resto. Turn one I played hiercach and passed. my opponent played Goblin Guide and attacked and i revealed a ghost quarter. Turn two I played a Selfless Spirit i drew after the GQ and passed. His turn two he played a Footihills, bolted spirit and swung in revealing arbiter. turn 3 i cast arbiter and he doesn't respond by cracking his foothills. I proceed to GQ his one mana producing land and he drew fetches for the rest of the game. I won 2-1. Was then 1-0-1.
Round 3: Played against jund. He out midranged me game one but in games 2 and 3 with a combination of Brimaz RIP and Gideon and Courser let me outgrind him and prevail in the match 2-1. 2-0-1
Round 4: Mono Blue tron opponent mulled to 5 game one and had natural tron O-stone and Platinum angel. Opponent was playing a little slow so i conceded to him to try t have enough time to finish the match even though he was at -3 life and i had 3 wisp 4 paths as outs. Games 2 and 3 Ghost Quarters and E-wit locked him out of the game pretty effectively. Won 2-1. 3-0-1
The list i played tonight was this.
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
3x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Restoration Angel
2x Scavenging Ooze
2x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
4x Ghost Quarter
3x Horizon Canopy
2x Plains
4x Razorverge Thicket
2x Stirring Wildwood
1x Tectonic Edge
3x Temple Garden
Instant (6)
2x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
Artifact (4)
4x AEther Vial
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Worship
sure but i think that's a little disingenious and not really an answer. just because something can be countered or dies to doomblade doesn't mean it always will and to believe otherwise seems a little foolish. Tron is a whole different beast as the decks is filled with redundant ways to consistently find their "ramp spells" so having 1 or even 2 ways to kill a land in modern is often not enough to stop tron.
To be clear I'm fine with all of these cards existing in modern (however much i might dislike tron and valakut strategies) I just don't see the argument for SSG right now other than it's unfun to play against and it's often used to try to do degenerate things and those two things aren't enough for it to warrant a ban yet.
All right I never claimed it was a new idea or extreme i was just curious as to why you thought it restricted design space. I feel as though by that logic we should be looking at banning all ramp cards as well as they effectively reduce the mana costs of cards in the same way don't they?