I like chalice because you can catch a couple decks with their pants down especially on the play. However, chalice on 1 shuts down all of your removal (unless you have dismember and you're probably not running more than 2), and chalice on 2 is all/most of your hatebears. Besides being less effective on the draw, it's also a terrible topdeck where most of our other hate options would have been better.
With our sb slots being as tight as it is, I feel chalice doesn't quite make my list since I play enough cross hate to not need/want it. Usually some combination of thalia, spellskite, worship, EE are enough to do the trick and they are always good when I board/have them, whereas I've still lost to exalted/penelhaven/blighted agent/inkmoth or a large enough pridemate (deck runs a number of 2cmc +) or a 2/3 aura'd bogle/spiritdancer with chalice out.
Outside of these matchups, I do see chalice being universally better against delver, storm; I also don't find chalice great against affinity and I'd rather have worship, EE, spellskite + creeping corrosion which I run in my sb.
Hello, I'm a GW hatebear player, that is looking try out bant. Even though the deck is two colors it still has trouble with Blood Moon and since it runs arbiters, doesn't run fetches for basics and allow for big Kotr's. The hate in GW can also be marginal/detrimental at times and occasionally doesn't beat hard enough/have a reliable finisher.
Bant looks interesting to me, since I get to play counters and still have large beaters.
I just have a few starter questions:
I'm curious if unified will gets any consideration since it only looks terrible against small zoo, soul sisters, and merfolk?
Does Gavony Township also get a nod, or does the deck generally not have that kind of mana to spare?
Without GSZ/ponder, there's no effective tutor/deck manipulation, so does the deck run into a lot of inconsistencies/rely on good draws (Horizon canopy can kind of help)?
Can the deck be very vulnerable to supreme verdict? Elspeth helps here.
I've never been a huge fan of the D&T style flicker train since it can torpor orb (which I also like in my sb), how great are things like snapcaster, resto, flickerwisp (especiialy without aether vial), but more importantly how good is Vendillion in this deck?
Torpor Orb is also good against the soul sister variants, which is a pretty awful matchup without them and EE.
As for mana tithe, I think its great only because it get disrespected so much. I only have a experience with it in bogles, but some decks still run volcanic fallout/supreme verdict so it isn't 100% safe against sweepers, and you'd rather have dismember against the creature combos. Thalia is much better against the other combos, and tithe isn't great with her. On the plus, you do occasionally catch a wrath, t3 karn, cryptic command, or whatever, and net a big smile.
I've been giving fauna shaman a try again, and it just doesn't do anything currently. Doesn't block, beat, or survive any removal, so it's a bit of a trap for people looking to tinker with the general list.
Unfortunately I cannot find a Bant thread to lurk in (nvm found it; thought it was the troll worship one), and since GWB gets a mention here, I'll ask if anyone has any experience with it. Counters are decent against combo, so thalia can be removed/in the sb and rhox war monks are great anti-aggro. You still get the mindcensors (and arbiters if you want), and run fetches for basics/kotr. Mana denial becomes less of a thing though.
Thanks for all your hard work, knowledge, and insight Horseshoecrab. Hopefully we'll get you back some time.
a Blue splash isn't too difficult, but fetches/arbiter can be a bit of a pain. Otherwise you can kinda take it in a bant direction with less hate, which I've been looking to try.
The most notable issue with the deck is definitely its dependence on weak draws with no tutors/manipulation unlike its legacy inspiration. If pod gets banned, although I feel its unlikely, Arbiters can be removed for kotr + fetches?. However, without the pseudo stripmines, swords to plowshares, we're not really doing much else besides being a low curve/mindrangy deck with no real mana denial outside of thalia and fauna shaman definitely needs to be an auto-include with no GSZ, mom, or stoneforge around. Maybe we can get a decent mom/land disruption substitute one day.
(I've mostly played WW D&T and am busy building the GW deck - most pieces arriving next week)
In D&T they run 4 Aether Vial plus 3 1-drop (I ran 4 Dryad Militant because it has actual hate for Control and I wanted a faster start).
GW runs 4 Noble Hierarch and 1 to 2 Birds of Paradise in the one-drop position - so 1 to 2 less.
Now my thinking is that perhaps GW could look to including Dryad Militant in some form. With Wilt-Leaf Liege it becomes a 4/3 for 1.
I get that the question becomes - "what's the cut?", and I'm beginning to think it's from the top end of the curve. Thrun's, Baneslayers etc are nice - but are only finishers. Liege turns most of the creatures into finishers (6/6 Smiters, 4/4 Voices, 4/3 Dryad's, 4/4 Pridemages etc).
If I had to look at Caerthose529's decklist - I would think perhaps something like:
-1 Birds, -1 Brimaz, -2 Thrun, -1 Baneslayer
+3 Militant, +2 Liege
Perhaps a question to Caerthose529 - how did you find the extra Bird? Most lists seem to be on the 4+1 design, you went 4+2.
I'll be beginning to play-test all my own ideas soon (Legacy tournaments taking priority at the moment) - but I want to know if anyone has any thoughts on this?
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PS DOL - ran Worship sideboard in D&T, also on the fence over mainboarding it. I brought it in in so many matches it seemed very worth it. It does again become a question of what to cut, but I never find it irrelevant.
I like dryad in D&T because you're not running any dorks to enable T2 plays like GQ, or options for scooze, qasali, spellskite, smiter. It's not much better than scooze early and definitely worse late against gys, and it isn't exactly anti-aggro against zoo, affinity, merfolk, bogle to name a few.
Wouldn't we like it if liege gave +1/+1 and/or trample. Liege was great when we consistently got to cheat it in with jund running around, otherwise I cannot think of many matchups where I'd like to tap out T3/T4 for it in this meta. I feel it's quite consistently good against zoo and BGx, decent in midrange stalls and against scapeshift, but not great against the other combos, control, or the remaining aggro decks that just don't care.
I understand what you're saying about transitioning to the later portion of the game with a lead, but I find these midrange battles quite difficult to win without a big lead. In most cases, the only thing stopping us getting beatdown is smiter, and occasionally crusader. Most of these stalls end up being unfavourable when pod elects to combo off/get bigger with their gavony, merfolk gets evasion/more lords, big zoo drops hellkite, soul sisters gets huge pridemages/ascendants, and tokens get enough anthem/CA (nothing much we about this one). Since these problem come from creature stalls on board and not against control/combo, I feel that's why we need an Elspeth, gavony, sword, worship, baneslayer, or some combination to eventually win.
Against Big zoo, if you're keeping them off 5 mana with LD, those Kotr are going to be an issue, yes scooze helps, but if you're going after their lands in the gy, your scooze won't be punching through much, notably 3/3 nacatls, goyfs, other smiters and scoozes. Big zoo is also running their own mana dorks, a couple basics, and around 12 pieces of removal for arbiter which is definitely trouble for lists without tect edges. In any case, the real hero in these kinds of games are the worships, which is the strongest reason why Baneslayer isn't "necessary" and we eventually get there with flyers or a big exalted creature.
I feel 3 Voice is a good number, since it's great against all the control/tempo decks, but it's not a fast clock/disruption against combo and not great against aggro decks either (gives you 2 chump blockers for the price of 1, I guess).
Seal of Primordium is good because you get to drop it and forget about it until you need it, it is also harder to remove. I don't run it in my 75, but it's very versatile.
Stony Silence is great, some people don't run it because it conflicts a bit with vials, swords, EE. Since we have access to creeping corrosion and fracturing gusts for affinity, it isn't a must have.
I've flipped between 0-2 bop, and it should differ from list to list. Bop, helps us drop T2 smiters, swords, mindcensors more consistently and gives a us a little more option with EE. Scooze can get pretty mana intensive, and sometimes you want to have extra mana up for qasali, removal, arbiter and gavony activations.
I like to have at least 1 baneslayer because without them we simply have no game against "real" midrange decks. Most of the lists are loaded with 2 drop bears that cannot finish games quick or provide much utility against creature-centric decks outside of land destruction. imo thats why we struggle against soul sister (lifegain is the big issue), merfolk, tokens, BG/junk with obliterators/kotr , and big zoo; I can see Wilt-leaf's anthem helping here, but evasion is often overlooked.
I think rancor is the best replacement for a finisher, it gives the trample damage, recursion, but no lifegain. Brimaz has been underwhelming for me and I haven't found much use for crusader outside of pod/BGx. Another issue with crusader is, you need to have a few exalted sources (which have no protection) or else you're easily losing the race.
@ToonBoon, I've been trying a 1-of Elspeth and I don't feel it's a win more. It helps on defense by providing chump blockers, can transition to provide large evasive beaters and leave you with a board after wraths.
I don't find creeping corrosion too slow, although top deck cranial with a couple (b)inkmonth out is still threatening.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. When playing against someone who doesn't know about arbiter, i.e. searching their library before paying, since the arbiter effect isn't an activated ability, your opponent cannot search even if they have the mana to pay. It comes up quite often, and players do forget because of time, fatigue, etc., so don't be afraid to steal some games to make breakers or w/e.
I see, but the effectiveness of worship hinges around the storm player barely making lethal, and past in flames can give them enough extra triggers to spare a couple copies for our x/1's and x/2's. I need to test this matchup more, it's extremely annoying when some players go for the kill t/3, t/4 regardless of the board state and end up getting there, when a worship the next turn could net a win.
@tadiou. I don't like worship against storm, it costs 4, and 5 with thalia. A large enough grapeshot can wipe the board as well. Storm generally doesn't have/bring in sweepers, but lightning bolts are equally as effective at clearly the board/going to the face with an active ascension.
I like gavony, but like the cfb announcers were saying, it doesn't secure you any wins you weren't going to win outside a top deck -> alpha strike. Gavony doesn't come close to helping us match other large creatures, and is only marginally effective against pod who have slightly more mana creatures/gavonys to throw around. Maybe you want to push a linvala/spellskite outside flame slash range, but eiganjo castle is definitely more useful against those decks.
And choke, which I feel is iffy against not merfolk. You're locking down roughly 6-10 "islands" out of 23+ lands for Blue lists that are not delver. How much success have you guys found success with it?
I like the list. I'm a bit back and forth on chalice as well, but sb slots are easily swapped. I'm curious how good you think choke is going to be, dropping it is pretty much the only time I win against merfolk. I kinda like against some Ux shells, since most of these list run about 6-10 "islands", and occasionally you can catch storm without blue, but that's a bit of a stretch.
Another possible 3cmc creature can be dauntless escort I suppose if you're worried about sweepers otherwise we're starting to scrap the bottom of the barrel looking for other options lol.
My experience with rancor has been underwhelming. We don't have lots of matchups which require us to get trample damage in besides tokens/faeries (neither are huge atm, but rancor is very good here). Rancor is also decent against the UWR twin, with their wall of omens and resto being surprisingly good stalls early. It is only semi-effective against soul sister depending on draws, because we're not getting through big pridemates, and they're not always looking to chump with lifegain creatures outside of maytr of sand.
I currently have use two swords a proW/R proW/B for these games because they both give me lifegain, which I feel is very relevant. I think being able to re-equip and rancor returning to hand is comparable, but as 1/2-of I would have to say a sword gets me a win more often. Perhaps Unflinching Courage may be a good alternative, although it lacks the recursion.
I think if BGx and big zoo are going to be popular you might want the 24 lands, 5+ dorks to get you to baneslayer and maybe a few crusaders and live with not drawing/having the appropriate hate against combo/twin etc in the form of qasali, thalia, voice. Otherwise, go without a strong plan against midrange/slower aggro and hope combo takes care of them?
I personally don't find RG tron too unreasonable. What happens is either we steamroll them or they steamroll us which depends a lot on who's winning the die toss.
With our sb slots being as tight as it is, I feel chalice doesn't quite make my list since I play enough cross hate to not need/want it. Usually some combination of thalia, spellskite, worship, EE are enough to do the trick and they are always good when I board/have them, whereas I've still lost to exalted/penelhaven/blighted agent/inkmoth or a large enough pridemate (deck runs a number of 2cmc +) or a 2/3 aura'd bogle/spiritdancer with chalice out.
Outside of these matchups, I do see chalice being universally better against delver, storm; I also don't find chalice great against affinity and I'd rather have worship, EE, spellskite + creeping corrosion which I run in my sb.
Bant looks interesting to me, since I get to play counters and still have large beaters.
I just have a few starter questions:
I'm curious if unified will gets any consideration since it only looks terrible against small zoo, soul sisters, and merfolk?
Does Gavony Township also get a nod, or does the deck generally not have that kind of mana to spare?
Without GSZ/ponder, there's no effective tutor/deck manipulation, so does the deck run into a lot of inconsistencies/rely on good draws (Horizon canopy can kind of help)?
Can the deck be very vulnerable to supreme verdict? Elspeth helps here.
I've never been a huge fan of the D&T style flicker train since it can torpor orb (which I also like in my sb), how great are things like snapcaster, resto, flickerwisp (especiialy without aether vial), but more importantly how good is Vendillion in this deck?
As for mana tithe, I think its great only because it get disrespected so much. I only have a experience with it in bogles, but some decks still run volcanic fallout/supreme verdict so it isn't 100% safe against sweepers, and you'd rather have dismember against the creature combos. Thalia is much better against the other combos, and tithe isn't great with her. On the plus, you do occasionally catch a wrath, t3 karn, cryptic command, or whatever, and net a big smile.
I've been giving fauna shaman a try again, and it just doesn't do anything currently. Doesn't block, beat, or survive any removal, so it's a bit of a trap for people looking to tinker with the general list.
Unfortunately I cannot find a Bant thread to lurk in (nvm found it; thought it was the troll worship one), and since GWB gets a mention here, I'll ask if anyone has any experience with it. Counters are decent against combo, so thalia can be removed/in the sb and rhox war monks are great anti-aggro. You still get the mindcensors (and arbiters if you want), and run fetches for basics/kotr. Mana denial becomes less of a thing though.
a Blue splash isn't too difficult, but fetches/arbiter can be a bit of a pain. Otherwise you can kinda take it in a bant direction with less hate, which I've been looking to try.
The most notable issue with the deck is definitely its dependence on weak draws with no tutors/manipulation unlike its legacy inspiration. If pod gets banned, although I feel its unlikely, Arbiters can be removed for kotr + fetches?. However, without the pseudo stripmines, swords to plowshares, we're not really doing much else besides being a low curve/mindrangy deck with no real mana denial outside of thalia and fauna shaman definitely needs to be an auto-include with no GSZ, mom, or stoneforge around. Maybe we can get a decent mom/land disruption substitute one day.
I like dryad in D&T because you're not running any dorks to enable T2 plays like GQ, or options for scooze, qasali, spellskite, smiter. It's not much better than scooze early and definitely worse late against gys, and it isn't exactly anti-aggro against zoo, affinity, merfolk, bogle to name a few.
Wouldn't we like it if liege gave +1/+1 and/or trample. Liege was great when we consistently got to cheat it in with jund running around, otherwise I cannot think of many matchups where I'd like to tap out T3/T4 for it in this meta. I feel it's quite consistently good against zoo and BGx, decent in midrange stalls and against scapeshift, but not great against the other combos, control, or the remaining aggro decks that just don't care.
Against Big zoo, if you're keeping them off 5 mana with LD, those Kotr are going to be an issue, yes scooze helps, but if you're going after their lands in the gy, your scooze won't be punching through much, notably 3/3 nacatls, goyfs, other smiters and scoozes. Big zoo is also running their own mana dorks, a couple basics, and around 12 pieces of removal for arbiter which is definitely trouble for lists without tect edges. In any case, the real hero in these kinds of games are the worships, which is the strongest reason why Baneslayer isn't "necessary" and we eventually get there with flyers or a big exalted creature.
Seal of Primordium is good because you get to drop it and forget about it until you need it, it is also harder to remove. I don't run it in my 75, but it's very versatile.
Stony Silence is great, some people don't run it because it conflicts a bit with vials, swords, EE. Since we have access to creeping corrosion and fracturing gusts for affinity, it isn't a must have.
I've flipped between 0-2 bop, and it should differ from list to list. Bop, helps us drop T2 smiters, swords, mindcensors more consistently and gives a us a little more option with EE. Scooze can get pretty mana intensive, and sometimes you want to have extra mana up for qasali, removal, arbiter and gavony activations.
I like to have at least 1 baneslayer because without them we simply have no game against "real" midrange decks. Most of the lists are loaded with 2 drop bears that cannot finish games quick or provide much utility against creature-centric decks outside of land destruction. imo thats why we struggle against soul sister (lifegain is the big issue), merfolk, tokens, BG/junk with obliterators/kotr , and big zoo; I can see Wilt-leaf's anthem helping here, but evasion is often overlooked.
I think rancor is the best replacement for a finisher, it gives the trample damage, recursion, but no lifegain. Brimaz has been underwhelming for me and I haven't found much use for crusader outside of pod/BGx. Another issue with crusader is, you need to have a few exalted sources (which have no protection) or else you're easily losing the race.
@ToonBoon, I've been trying a 1-of Elspeth and I don't feel it's a win more. It helps on defense by providing chump blockers, can transition to provide large evasive beaters and leave you with a board after wraths.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned. When playing against someone who doesn't know about arbiter, i.e. searching their library before paying, since the arbiter effect isn't an activated ability, your opponent cannot search even if they have the mana to pay. It comes up quite often, and players do forget because of time, fatigue, etc., so don't be afraid to steal some games to make breakers or w/e.
I like gavony, but like the cfb announcers were saying, it doesn't secure you any wins you weren't going to win outside a top deck -> alpha strike. Gavony doesn't come close to helping us match other large creatures, and is only marginally effective against pod who have slightly more mana creatures/gavonys to throw around. Maybe you want to push a linvala/spellskite outside flame slash range, but eiganjo castle is definitely more useful against those decks.
And choke, which I feel is iffy against not merfolk. You're locking down roughly 6-10 "islands" out of 23+ lands for Blue lists that are not delver. How much success have you guys found success with it?
To people running 2+ nature's claim in the sb, I would suggest at least 1 seal of primordium so you don't completely fold to chalice of the void.
edit: nice win. gl against affinity in the finals.
Another possible 3cmc creature can be dauntless escort I suppose if you're worried about sweepers otherwise we're starting to scrap the bottom of the barrel looking for other options lol.
edit:
My experience with rancor has been underwhelming. We don't have lots of matchups which require us to get trample damage in besides tokens/faeries (neither are huge atm, but rancor is very good here). Rancor is also decent against the UWR twin, with their wall of omens and resto being surprisingly good stalls early. It is only semi-effective against soul sister depending on draws, because we're not getting through big pridemates, and they're not always looking to chump with lifegain creatures outside of maytr of sand.
I currently have use two swords a proW/R proW/B for these games because they both give me lifegain, which I feel is very relevant. I think being able to re-equip and rancor returning to hand is comparable, but as 1/2-of I would have to say a sword gets me a win more often. Perhaps Unflinching Courage may be a good alternative, although it lacks the recursion.
I personally don't find RG tron too unreasonable. What happens is either we steamroll them or they steamroll us which depends a lot on who's winning the die toss.