So i got some questions to this:
1st: Aren't Dryad and Kudzu very vulnerable to removal nowadays? It seems that without a threat the Deck runs out of gas quickly ?!? Spellskite is worth SB Slots?
4th: Remand over Snag would be fine, but Ruse seems narrow.
It doesn't get value out of Oracle if it isn't on the Field. Maybe there's sth. in addition to Coiling Oracle that gives us value? Augur of Bolas or Wall of Omens first came to my mind. I'm not sure, maybe there's a valueable 1-Drop?
5th: Why do Borderposts trigger Dryad? Are they colored or colorless?
6th: Does this Deck have a Plan B? If Dryad or Kudzu doesn't stick it seems pretty Dead to me?!?
which leads me to point 7:
Why not run Hooting Mandrills here?
8-10 Fetchlands, 20+ Instants / Sorceries, our Grave is filled pretty quickly i assume.
I apologize for the very delayed reply, but I haven't checked in on the thread in a while. I'll do my best to answer some of your questions.
1. Yes, they are vulnerable. Ideally you want to run them out with protection or with spells to grow them out of bolt range as soon as possible. Looking back, I feel like having some protection spells in the sideboard (or even maindeck) would have been a good idea. Apostle's Blessing, Vines of Vastwood, or as you mentioned Simic Charm. I think Simic Charm is better than Spellskite, not to mention that Spellskite is way out of budget.
2. I'd probably run 10+ fetches. They will quickly make Kudzu very large. Also, they fix your mana and thin your deck for such a small cost (1 life). That being said, once again, they are out of budget.
3. Repeal is fine, but I think Into the Roil works better for this deck. I'd have to play test to be sure...
4. Familiar's Ruse is not narrow (it's a hard counter) but it is hard to get value from. Remand is out of budget, but if you don't like downside to Ruse, then you can always go a different counterspell.
5. Borderposts are colored spells. You're just playing them for their alternative casting cost. So, even though you only spent 1 colorless mana, it will still trigger Dryad.
6 and 7. No, there isn't a backup plan. I think decks are best when they have a goal and work their hardest to accomplish it. Dividing your cards between multiple game plans seems to water down the deck. Of course, this isn't always the case, and having a plan B does give a deck versatility. However, when constrained by budget, I find synergy to be a deck builder's best friend. It is the only real way to make a competitive deck that is more than just the sum of its parts. You are free to disagree. And with that said, Hooting Mandrills could be a great addition!! Although, you won't have fetches to fuel him in the budget version.
FYI, Kudzu isn't quite as slow as you think. Try him with fetchlands and he's like a budget Tarmogoyf. With the borderposts he basically gets +1 every turn, because you can bounce a land to your hand, then replay it. However, I think you're correct that Delver and/or Hooting Mandrills would be faster.
I also really like some of your ideas in the second post. Delver of Secrets instead of Kudzu, then raising the number of instants to help him flip. Simic Charm as I mentioned earlier seems really good. After cutting Kudzu, I would cut Coiling Oracle. The only reason he was in the deck was for synergy with Kudzu and Ruse. Cutting those cards should give you room to add things like Logic Knot and Spell Pierce (Spell Snare is probably again out of budget). The added instants will help give you cards to delve to Hooting Mandrills even without fetchlands, although you may need some help from Thought Scour.
You should post a deck list. I think you've made some really good improvements.
Thanks! I actually had alot of fun with my tweaked version of your $50 list. Went 2 and 2 so not to shabby, especially since one of my wins came against a guy who resolved Emrakul and Progenitus in the same turn against me.
I'm pretty sure at this point paths and remands will be my first purchases, but how do you like only having 2 swords in the build? I only saw mine two or three times the whole night and felt like I wanted more in the deck all night.
Swords are a bit expensive, so I'm guessing it was a budget decision. Ideally you want to hit one sword, so without having a way to tutor for them, you probably want 3-4 in the deck. Bonesplitter is one of my favorite budget equipments, +2 is pretty relevant and it's super cheap to cast/equip.
Zwei, that has to be one of the craziest decks I've seen in a while. Amazing build... couldn't help but give it a foil stamp
Thanks!
Glad you like it. I've been playing it a bit on MTGO and it's a blast when it goes off. Cool interaction I didn't see when I was making the list: Cloudstone Curio + Spreading Seas also bounces Reality Acid. Hah!
Anyway, I'll be sure to post something else next time creativity strikes. : )
I tried this out a few times and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but even if you go off turn 1 (which I did once!) or turn 2, you still usually need 2 more turns to beat the opponent down with your 1/1's - I was generating about 12-14 goblins. Don't you usually just lose games 2 and 3 to sideboard hate? I get blown out by Pyroclasm, Golgari Charm, or even Zealous Persecution very consistently. Since the deck has no draw, I can't put enough tokens on the board for a one hit kill and I definitely can't come back from a board wipe. Am I missing something?! It's a cool list, so I'd really like to hear your thoughts.
You are playing it right if you are generating about 12-14 goblins turn 1/2, it's the plan. I wrote that it's a deck that tries to win turn 1/2 but I should have written that tries to go off t1/2. It's very hard to race 10+ goblin, but sadly if your opponent is playing maindeck pyroclasm (aka Tron) sometimes you are going to lose. But that doesn't mean that you can't win through some hate, for example if you belive that your opponent is going to side in some hate-cards you can change your plan cutting some Empty the Warrens for some alternative win-con (and often people side out removals against storm, so trying to stick a fatty like Arc-Slogger, Moltensteel Dragon or Deus of Calamity isn't a too crazy plan). This is a strange deck, the hardest choices are mulligan decisions and sideboarding decisions. Gameplay decisions instead are pretty linear.
Okay, cool. Glad I was doing things more or less correctly. It does make sense that they would board in pyroclasm, et al. that they would side out targeted removal, so we can bring in a big beater like Deus of Calamity to finish the game quickly. I also saw that your sideboard had Ignite Memories which also makes sense. Appreciate the help!
BW Tokens has always been one of my favorite T2 decks. I can't believe this can be done for <$55. Nice find!!
Have you considered Charge Across the Araba? I've always found this to be a win condition that can take players by complete surprise and it's less than a quarter. : )
I tried this out a few times and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but even if you go off turn 1 (which I did once!) or turn 2, you still usually need 2 more turns to beat the opponent down with your 1/1's - I was generating about 12-14 goblins. Don't you usually just lose games 2 and 3 to sideboard hate? I get blown out by Pyroclasm, Golgari Charm, or even Zealous Persecution very consistently. Since the deck has no draw, I can't put enough tokens on the board for a one hit kill and I definitely can't come back from a board wipe. Am I missing something?! It's a cool list, so I'd really like to hear your thoughts.
This is based on a Pauper deck of the same name (aka, Azorius Kitty). The idea is to generate advantage in the early game with creatures that give you an additional benefit: Lone Missionary + 4 Life, Wall of Omens + 1 Card, Blade Splicer + a 3/3 Golem. These cards can then be brought back to your hand and re-played with help from Ninja of the Deep Hours + 1 Card, Kor Skyfisher, and Dream Stalker. Wall of Omens, Dream Stalker, and the Golems created by Blade Splicer, will also help to stall the battlefield until you can get setup for the degenerate use of Reality Acid and Cloudstone Curio.
The real fun comes when you start destroying the opponent's creatures, enchantments, and even lands with Reality Acid. Normally, after playing Reality Acid you would need to wait 3 turns before it "Vanished" and took the enchanted permanent along with it. This is too slow, plus you lose your Reality Acid. So, instead we bounce it back to our hand with Dream Stalker or Kor Skyfisher (we can also use Momentary Blink on those creatures, if needed). Then when Reality Acid "leaves play" the permanent it was enchanting must be sacrificed. You can continue doing this turn after turn until you run out of ways to bounce it back to your hand.
This is where Cloudstone Curio really helps. With it in play, any creature can be played to return a bounce creature to our hand which can then be played to bounce Reality Acid. For example, we have Reality Acid and Lone Missionary in hand and a Dream Stalker on the battlefield. We can cast Reality Acid targeting the opponent's land, cast Lone Missionary which triggers Cloudstone Curio (and we get 4 life), then return Dream Stalker to our hand, play Dream Stalker and return both Lone Missionary (via Cloudstone Curio's trigger) and Reality Acid (via Dream Stalker's trigger) to our hand and the opponent must sacrifice their land. Rinse, repeat.
Cloudstone Curio is a huge mana sink, but if we have enough mana we can chain together all sorts of plays to help us beat our opponent. 2 Lone Missionary's can gain us 4 life for every 2 mana. As we saw above, we can gain 4 life and destroy a permanent for 7 mana. Wall of Omen's lets us draw a card for 2 mana. Blade splicer gives us a 3/3 Golem for 3 mana. Mulldrifter gives us at least 2 cards for 5 mana (usually 4 cards! More on this in a second). We can also re-buy our Reality Acid with Detention Sphere which if we target one of our creatures with D-Sphere can also net us 4 life, 1 card, 2 cards, or a 3/3 Golem. If we have multiples in play, we benefit even more! Imagine D-Sphere exiling 3 Mulldrifters and returning Reality Acid to your hand, the opponent then sacrifices whatever Reality Acid was enchanting. Now you play Reality Acid on another one of their permanents return D-Sphere to your hand. All 3 Mulldrifters return to the battlefield and you draw 6 cards. All of this for 6 mana!!
A couple of notes on Momentary Blink:
1. If you Evoke Mulldrifter, you can stack the triggers to draw 2 cards before sacrificing Mulldrifter. You can then draw 2 and in response cast Momentary Blink on your Mulldrifter. When it comes back into play you will get 2 more cards and you won't have to sacrifice it.
2. We will never hard-cast Akroma, Angel of Fury or Sagu Mauler, but we can put them into play as a Morph creature. Then if we case Momentary Blink targeting Akroma or Sagu, they will come back as a huge creatures that are hard to kill (protection and hexproof).
Also, some games you will just go aggro. Chaining Blade Splicer, Momentary Blink, and Kor Skyfisher can really get the job done.
Sideboard:
1. Spreading Seas is to cut players off from their mana quicker than in game 1. Mostly I'm thinking this would help versus Junk (or other greedy mana bases) and Tron.
2. Rest in Peace is obviously for graveyard based decks that we otherwise can't interact with: Storm, Dredgevine, etc.
3. Akroma, Angel of Fury and Sagu Mauler are for when our slow, value-based gameplan isn't good enough and we need a fast clock.
4. Disenchant is mostly for Splinter Twin, but any other Artifact or Enchantment that's annoying can be dealt with too.
5. Lastly, Familiar's Ruse is for everything else that we need to stop. It's a hard counter and the draw-back doesn't affect us much, if at all, and many times helps us.
Card choices without regard for budget:
1. Lands... as usual. I wouldn't just jam in full playsets of Fetches and Shocks as we're trying to gain incremental advantage from our plays, but thinning the deck a bit would be helpful. I'd lean towards Fetchlands and Glacial Fortress but maybe leave the Hallowed Fountains out.
2. Æther Vial seems right at home in a deck like this. We're bouncing creatures to our hand, so putting them back into play for free is awesome! Also, it allows us to play creatures at instant speed, which when combined with Cloudstone Curio means we can bounce creatures at instant speed too! This means we can chump block and save our guy without taking damage. Or, evoke Mulldrifter and then bounce it back to our hand netting 2 cards. And more!! This is probably the best addition you could make to this deck.
3. I would want to change Sagu Mauler into a second Akroma, Angel of Fury as a finisher. I would look into Restoration Angel, which seems like it could have really good synergy. Path to Exile might not be necessary, but having a couple in the sideboard would make me feel safer.
Let me know if you have any suggestions as this isn't a finished product.
Miracle Gro was designed to put out an early threat (e.g., Quirion Dryad) and then keep tempo with the opponent (counter their spells, bounce their permanents, etc.) while Quirion Dryad got bigger and also beat the opponent to death.
A few problems with this plan: Most of the cards from Mircle Gro aren't Modern legal. Also, there are some really good new options that are way out of budget (e.g., Snapcaster Mage). Let's not let this dissuade us from making an awesomely fun deck!
The core plan of the deck should remain the same: Drop Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu. These cards will get big naturally as spells are cast. This means that drawing cards, countering the opponents spells, and bouncing their permanents gives more bang for the buck than usual. So, at least 1 of these should be in your opening hand. It might be correct to keep other hands, but I'd usually recommend against it.
I also really like the interaction with the borderposts (e.g., Fieldmist Borderpost). Basically, when the borderpost is cast for its alternative cost it counts as a spell and pumps Quirion Dryad. It also returns a land which can then come in and pump Vinelasher Kudzu. Coiling Oracle is also a great value card as it pumps Quirion Dryad, then can cheat a land into play pumping Vinelasher Kudzu. "Worst" case, it doesn't hit a land and draws a card, the horror. Coiling Oracle is also the primary target for Familiar's Ruse as it turns the drawback into a boon. However, if Coiling Oracle isn't in play, it's generally a bad idea to return Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu to hand as they probably have counters on them and are the deck's win condition. That's the main reason Judge's Familiar is in the deck, but it also helps with tempo and pumps Quirion Dryad. Ideally I'd be using Snapcaster Mage, but it's too expensive.
Bounce and counter spells will generally be played on the opponent and their permanents/spells. However, keep in mind that these can also function as combat tricks or value plays.
Example 1: the opponent is at 8 life and all of their creatures are tapped. We have a 5/5 Quirion Dryad on the board, but we'll die next turn. It's entirely reasonable to cast Path to Exile on our Quirion Dryad, counter it with Rune Snag, and then Condescend the Path to Exile for 0 (4 mana total). The Quirion Dryad becomes an 8/8 and lives, we get to Scry 2, and then swing in for lethal damage.
Example 2: You have a Coiling Oracle and 2 Vinelasher Kudzu's in play, the Vinelasher Kudzu's are both 3/3, and the opponent has 10 life. Let's just assume you are once again dead next turn. You can cast Unsummon on your Coiling Oracle, respond by casting Condescend for 0 on Unsummon, pay the 0 cost. You get back your Coiling Oracle and Scry 2, keep a land on top of your Library. Cast Coiling Oracle, this puts the land in play, which triggers your Vinelasher Kudzus' abilities. In response, your opponent casts Lightning Bolt on your Vinelasher Kudzu which would kill one of them. You respond by casting Path to Exile on your Coiling Oracle, fetching a basic land. This pumps your Vinelasher Kudzu's up to 4/4, the Bolt does 3 damage but they live, then the triggered ability resolves pumping your Vinelasher Kudzu's up to 5/5. Swing in for lethal.
These are just two examples, but I think they illustrate how clever play can really impact the game with this deck.
Lastly, the average cost of this deck's spells is under 2. So, you don't need too much mana for this deck to function. The most expensive spell is 4 cmc and that's in the sideboard. In the main deck, there's only a 4 cmc spell if Into the Roil is kicked. Feel free to keep land-light hands. The borderposts may as well count as land and help to fix mana while keeping the deck cheap. I'm honestly wondering if 24 lands is too much.
Card choices without regard for budget:
1. Lands! This is a very obvious inclusion on almost any budget deck's want list. Fetch lands would help thin the deck, doubly pump Vinelasher Kudzu, and help fix mana. Shocklands are less important, but a few wouldn't hurt.
2. Snapcaster Mage is super strong. He can flashback whatever spell you need, so you can play a wider range of spells. He will doubly pump Quirion Dryad. He acts as card advantage. And he can start swinging in for 2 damage.
3. Slightly better spells. The deck is actually naturally cheap. Quirion Dryad and Vinelasher Kudzu are "budget Tarmogoyf", we aren't relying on any super rare cards, and most of our spells are a bit uncommon in popular decks. Still, some improvements could probably be made: Remand, Cryptic Command, Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage, Serum Visions, Path to Exile, etc. I'm not sure if all of these would be good for the deck, but I think adding some as 1-2 of's would help.
Let me know if you have any suggestions as this isn't a finished product.
I'll admit my goals are a bit confused and perhaps contradictory seeming, but my general goal right now is improvement at the game. I'm still a beginner at it.
I wanted to play a control deck because it is one of the more challenging deck types, and I wanted to play it in Standard because FNM standard is a lot more forgiving at my LSG than Modern Mondays, in terms of how skilled the players are. Running into a brick wall or running complete crap isn't the best way to gain skill and experience.
I like deck design, and playing around with it helps me learn more about different cards and expand my knowledge of the game.
Your 'goal one' on this list I seem to have succeeded at with this deck based on my tests so far. Your 'goal two' I'm actually getting those shocklands. Land base is the core to all decks, making any deck more reliable, filling out my shockland collection is a priority before any cards that tend to be more expensive than shocklands. 'Goal three' you are misunderstanding my priorities on. It isn't a priority at all. It never was. It's subservient to the other goals. Or perhaps more accurately, I'm doing it in order to fulfill the other goals, being a playable 3 color deck that I have a reason to buy (and play with) shocklands for.
If I don't know some of how a control deck plays on the user end, it is harder to understand how to fight one. In fact, a deck that is as strong as it can possibly be with tons of money poured into it may actually be detrimental to my purposes here, as it runs the threat of becoming too easy against the opponents my skill level can actually beat, and not giving me enough of a challenge to improve my play, instead just running braindead mode off of the best cards I can gather. I still want to improve the deck within the limits of my collection and my spending limits, but I don't want to dedicate myself to an ultimately transient deck in a rotating Standard environment when I'm still quite far away from playing Modern control, even if I'm saving some of the cards for long-term use in Modern when I get to that level.
Basically, you are overestimating how fast I want to jump into things. I want to slowly work my way into Magic: the Gathering, learning and having fun along the way. I'm not near the skill level or size of collection I feel comfortable focusing towards modern yet, even if I know it's a better long-term investment, so I'm focusing cards I'm buying towards ones that are decent in it, and avoiding buying directly anything only good in Standard, (with some exceptions for stuff like EDH singletons). I don't want to jump into a top tier Standard deck yet, even if I had the budget for it, because it would be a waste of money at my current skill level and how soon Standard rotates (at least in terms of RTR or M14 cards) unless the cards involved will eventually pave my way into Modern (and thus are probably cheaper while still being printed than they will be by the time I am skilled enough to jump into Modern headlong).
Thanks for taking the time to read & thoughtfully respond to my post! You actually seem to have a good handle on what you want to do and how you want to do it. I was overestimating the speed at which you wanted to move into Modern, but mostly because I was thinking from an economic point of view and I've seen over the years how much card prices have been rising. That being said, I think things will get reprinted to stay the price of Modern, so if you choose the cards you buy carefully and you do it over several years, then Standard isn't that bad an investment.
Therefore, I will leave you with just a few tips that I think are worth noting:
To improve your play without spending tons of money, I still highly recommend Pauper. If your LGS sells old commons for reasonable prices, this is such a fun, deep, and strong format and for such a low price tag. Seriously, I wish I had know about this format sooner.
Another good way to improve, especially if you're playing Standard since you might pick up cards you need, is to draft regularly and take it seriously! I learned to play by drafting and I think it's a valuable skill set. Evaluating cards on the fly while putting together a coherent deck is difficult and it will really help you in your understanding of how to build a deck.
While you may not be looking to get into Modern right now, look at some of the top decks and see which one might interest you. That way you can focus on acquiring cards to use for that deck when you do get into Modern. Obviously, if your plan is to play USA Control or USA Midrange, then you can ignore this.
I don't normally point this out to newer players, but be aware of the price trends in Magic. I'm not suggesting anything fancy, but if you purchase cards for Standard, then try to sell the ones you don't want to use before the price drops due to rotation. Or, buy cards you need for Modern right after rotation. Within your budget, of course. Even really good cards that people _know_ will go up in value will drop slightly and then go way up. For example, Snapcaster Mage or Liliana of the Veil. Card prices also fluctuate with the Pro Tour or local competitive tournaments, as demand rises sharply and then falls slowly.
While the more competitive players may be out of your league, I suggest playing them (at least the friendly ones) as much as possible or watching their matches. You will learn a lot just from watching, they can help explain complicated interactions or rules questions, help you build a better deck, let you practice using one of their decks, etc. Too many advantages not to make friends with and play the best players at the store.
Lastly, Control decks tend to take a bit of a beating after rotation. They lose lots of critical cards and usually have to wait for the next block to provide good alternatives. For example, Supreme Verdict, Sphinx's Revelation, Aetherling, Jace AoT, etc. will leave holes that need to be filled. Current alternatives may be Anger of the Gods or Drown in Sorrow, (I don't think anything will replace Sphinx's Rev. but some good card draw), Prognostic Sphinx, Kiora?. And not just the power-house cards, just having good turn 1-3 stabilizers, so you don't lose to aggro is very important. For instance, Omenspeaker or Nyx-Fleece Ram might see more play... I don't really know. My point being, don't feel too bad if USA Control isn't all that great after rotation. You might just need to move into BUG or Grixis Control, or maybe play a midrange deck instead of control.
Anyway, those are just suggestions, so feel free to pick and choose what wisdom you take away from that. Best of luck!!
This may be slightly off topic, but after reading this thread I honestly don't know what you're trying to accomplish. People have given you good advice and your deck has gotten better, which is great. However, you seem to be a little uncertain of what your goal is. Here's what I've taken away from your posts:
1. You want to be the best Tier 2 player at your LGS.
2. You want to attain cards that will be valuable in Modern, i.e., shocklands.
3. You want to improve your USA Control deck.
The problem I see is that these three goals are not really that well aligned:
For goal #1 you need practice to get better at MTG. A good deck helps, but being a good player helps more. Control is also the hardest archetype in which to become proficient. You need to play efficiently, know the meta, have the best understanding of the rules, be cautious, etc. Aggro decks, on the other hand, play creatures and turn them sideways. Is there skill to aggro decks? Yes, but much less. I would suggest you play Pauper (commons only). Pauper decks are relatively cheap, costing on average about $30. Pauper decks are quite powerful; more powerful than any Standard deck and arguable on power with many Modern decks. Pauper is also a great way to learn how to play MTG well, and you can experiment with different archetypes easily since the decks are cheap.
For goal #2, Pauper is irrelevant as is Standard. You don't care at all about getting cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Jace, Architect of Thought, etc. The most important cards to get are probably shocklands. You're right that shocklands will probably be at their lowest price in the upcoming months as rotation roles around. Therefore, using your money to buy them is probably the best thing you can do. Lands generally go up in price over time, so it's a good investment in general anyway. Also, not many cards that are played in Standard get played in Modern. Sphinx's Revelation only gets played as a 2-of in Modern USA Control, despite the fact that it's basically a must have 4-of in Standard UWx Control. So, if you really want to play Modern then forget Standard as it will just waste your money. Pick-up shocklands as they rotate out, then figure out what decks you want to play in Modern and slowly start to build them. Note that Modern can be _very_ expensive with top tier decks being $1300-$2000. Budget Modern decks that cost about $200 can be very good and if you are willing to spend around $500 then you can make a slightly budget version of almost any deck, but you won't have fetchlands or Tarmogoyf.
For goal #3, cards are going to rotate out of the format soon. I would suggest looking towards the future. Getting temple's will be helpful. Mana Confluence (spelling?) will be a must have for most decks. For an idea of what Standard will look like 6 months from now, look at the results of Block Constructed tournaments as these will be the cards that will be available post-rotation. Here's a good place to start looking: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptjou14/top8decks.
So, the TL;DR of this post: Figure out what you _really_ want to accomplish and then slowly work towards that goal. Having multiple, conflicting goals and being disorganized in an effort to reach them will result in failure or, best case, a good deal of lost time and money.
I'm not sure if these are the best options, but here are some good budget cards for this type of list: Knight of New Alara, Civic Saber, Shield of the Oversoul. Obviously, this would work best in a list like Lantern's where (almost) all the creatures are at least 2 colors.
And apparently you are living in a world where these types of posts are acceptable. Hopefully a moderator will take notice and politely tell you to shut the **** up.
whipping back an AoS, quite possibly one of the most devastating plays I've seen lately.
This question is open to anyone, what are your primary targets when you whip back AoS? Since AoS will be exiled at end of turn, which creatures do we leave in the yard vs. bring back to our hand?!
True, now that thats out of the way, do any other cards have an exile type effect aside from aetherling and ghost dad that can be used in conjunction with whip to keep our whipped creatures around, that are cheaper than angel of serenity?
No, I don't believe there are any others in standard currently. The only way I see of getting "extra" value out of creatures that are whipped back would be creatures with sacrifice abilities: Keening Apparition, Corpse Hauler, Burnished Hart, etc.
Did you consider Nighthowler? If not main board, then I would definitely think about sideboard as this guy could get big fast. Couple this with an evasive creature (Deathcult Rogue, Cloudfin Raptor, etc.) and baby, you've got a stew going.
EDIT: Okay, after minor testing (and I do mean minor) I have to say that nighthowler is AMAZING! Main board for sure; I personally cut Prognostic Sphinx to fit it in. Also, Bane Alley Broker was perfect for getting me the cards I needed, so I like this in conjunction with so many 2-ofs. I'm questioning a few of the spells though: Duress, Dimir Charm, and Warped Physique seem weak to me compared to other options.
I generally dislike mill decks, but this was pretty fun since milling them was not the way I planned on winning. I mean, I was swinging with a 20/20 Consuming Aberration and a 15/15 Returned Phalanx equipped with Nighthowler. What's not to love about that?!
Hopefully you had good luck with this the other night! I enjoy these type of decks, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I already had 99% of the cards on MTGO, so I put this together and got some games in with it. I did make a few changes, based on my experience, which I'll post at the end, but it worked extremely well for me.
Many (too many) opponents rage quit to this deck, which is obviously hilarious. However, for the ones that did stick it out I was usually able to take the game down. Aggro matches were tough and they depended on whether I could stabilize, which either didn't happen or left me with <6 health. Good control players had the advantage and there's not a lot to say when you lose to an Elspeth backed up by as much or more control than we have, but I had some wins there too.
All-in-all this is basically a Tier 1 control deck, but without the Planeswalkers and Aetherling.
For comparison here is my version of your deck. I cut two Prognostic Sphinx's for some extra land and changed the spells around just a bit. I didn't re-check the price, but this should still be around $10:
I love hearing that my deck blows someone's mind!
I apologize for the very delayed reply, but I haven't checked in on the thread in a while. I'll do my best to answer some of your questions.
1. Yes, they are vulnerable. Ideally you want to run them out with protection or with spells to grow them out of bolt range as soon as possible. Looking back, I feel like having some protection spells in the sideboard (or even maindeck) would have been a good idea. Apostle's Blessing, Vines of Vastwood, or as you mentioned Simic Charm. I think Simic Charm is better than Spellskite, not to mention that Spellskite is way out of budget.
2. I'd probably run 10+ fetches. They will quickly make Kudzu very large. Also, they fix your mana and thin your deck for such a small cost (1 life). That being said, once again, they are out of budget.
3. Repeal is fine, but I think Into the Roil works better for this deck. I'd have to play test to be sure...
4. Familiar's Ruse is not narrow (it's a hard counter) but it is hard to get value from. Remand is out of budget, but if you don't like downside to Ruse, then you can always go a different counterspell.
5. Borderposts are colored spells. You're just playing them for their alternative casting cost. So, even though you only spent 1 colorless mana, it will still trigger Dryad.
6 and 7. No, there isn't a backup plan. I think decks are best when they have a goal and work their hardest to accomplish it. Dividing your cards between multiple game plans seems to water down the deck. Of course, this isn't always the case, and having a plan B does give a deck versatility. However, when constrained by budget, I find synergy to be a deck builder's best friend. It is the only real way to make a competitive deck that is more than just the sum of its parts. You are free to disagree. And with that said, Hooting Mandrills could be a great addition!!
FYI, Kudzu isn't quite as slow as you think. Try him with fetchlands and he's like a budget Tarmogoyf. With the borderposts he basically gets +1 every turn, because you can bounce a land to your hand, then replay it. However, I think you're correct that Delver and/or Hooting Mandrills would be faster.
I also really like some of your ideas in the second post. Delver of Secrets instead of Kudzu, then raising the number of instants to help him flip. Simic Charm as I mentioned earlier seems really good. After cutting Kudzu, I would cut Coiling Oracle. The only reason he was in the deck was for synergy with Kudzu and Ruse. Cutting those cards should give you room to add things like Logic Knot and Spell Pierce (Spell Snare is probably again out of budget). The added instants will help give you cards to delve to Hooting Mandrills even without fetchlands, although you may need some help from Thought Scour.
You should post a deck list. I think you've made some really good improvements.
Swords are a bit expensive, so I'm guessing it was a budget decision. Ideally you want to hit one sword, so without having a way to tutor for them, you probably want 3-4 in the deck. Bonesplitter is one of my favorite budget equipments, +2 is pretty relevant and it's super cheap to cast/equip.
I'd read this if you want some more ideas for Caw-blade: http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Caw-blade
Thanks!
Glad you like it. I've been playing it a bit on MTGO and it's a blast when it goes off. Cool interaction I didn't see when I was making the list: Cloudstone Curio + Spreading Seas also bounces Reality Acid. Hah!
Anyway, I'll be sure to post something else next time creativity strikes. : )
Okay, cool. Glad I was doing things more or less correctly.
I really like this idea for a budget deck. Have you looked here for some inspiration: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/220257-assault-loam ? I think a few of your cards (e.g., Lotleth Troll) don't really go well in this type of deck (I guess you could cast Worm Harvest and then make your Lotleth Troll huge, but that seems unnecessary.
BW Tokens has always been one of my favorite T2 decks. I can't believe this can be done for <$55. Nice find!!
Have you considered Charge Across the Araba? I've always found this to be a win condition that can take players by complete surprise and it's less than a quarter. : )
Best deck tech ever.
I tried this out a few times and maybe I'm doing it wrong, but even if you go off turn 1 (which I did once!) or turn 2, you still usually need 2 more turns to beat the opponent down with your 1/1's - I was generating about 12-14 goblins. Don't you usually just lose games 2 and 3 to sideboard hate? I get blown out by Pyroclasm, Golgari Charm, or even Zealous Persecution very consistently. Since the deck has no draw, I can't put enough tokens on the board for a one hit kill and I definitely can't come back from a board wipe. Am I missing something?! It's a cool list, so I'd really like to hear your thoughts.
This (almost) exact list was like the Standard deck to beat during the Gate Crash time frame. Super fast and consistent!
Glad this thread has returned for Modern! I really grew out of Standard and I love seeing the cool builds people brew. Keep it up, Shinbatsu!
*** THE DECKLIST ***
TIMESTAMP: 3:47 p.m. PDT May 16th 2015.
4 Tranquil Cove
10 Island
8 Plains
Creatures - 24
4 Dream Stalker
4 Kor Skyfisher
4 Lone Missionary
4 Mulldrifter
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Blade Splicer
3 Wall of Omens
4 Detention Sphere
4 Reality Acid
Spells - 6
3 Momentary Blink
3 Cloudstone Curio
4 Spreading Seas
4 Familiar's Ruse
1 Akroma, Angel of Fury
1 Sagu Mauler
2 Rest in Peace
3 Disenchant
CURVE (0 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8): 0 / 0 / 31 / 14 / 2 / 4 / 1 / 0 / 1
AVERAGE CMC: 2.75
CURRENT COST: $53.43
*** BACKGROUND ***
This is based on a Pauper deck of the same name (aka, Azorius Kitty). The idea is to generate advantage in the early game with creatures that give you an additional benefit: Lone Missionary + 4 Life, Wall of Omens + 1 Card, Blade Splicer + a 3/3 Golem. These cards can then be brought back to your hand and re-played with help from Ninja of the Deep Hours + 1 Card, Kor Skyfisher, and Dream Stalker. Wall of Omens, Dream Stalker, and the Golems created by Blade Splicer, will also help to stall the battlefield until you can get setup for the degenerate use of Reality Acid and Cloudstone Curio.
The real fun comes when you start destroying the opponent's creatures, enchantments, and even lands with Reality Acid. Normally, after playing Reality Acid you would need to wait 3 turns before it "Vanished" and took the enchanted permanent along with it. This is too slow, plus you lose your Reality Acid. So, instead we bounce it back to our hand with Dream Stalker or Kor Skyfisher (we can also use Momentary Blink on those creatures, if needed). Then when Reality Acid "leaves play" the permanent it was enchanting must be sacrificed. You can continue doing this turn after turn until you run out of ways to bounce it back to your hand.
This is where Cloudstone Curio really helps. With it in play, any creature can be played to return a bounce creature to our hand which can then be played to bounce Reality Acid. For example, we have Reality Acid and Lone Missionary in hand and a Dream Stalker on the battlefield. We can cast Reality Acid targeting the opponent's land, cast Lone Missionary which triggers Cloudstone Curio (and we get 4 life), then return Dream Stalker to our hand, play Dream Stalker and return both Lone Missionary (via Cloudstone Curio's trigger) and Reality Acid (via Dream Stalker's trigger) to our hand and the opponent must sacrifice their land. Rinse, repeat.
Cloudstone Curio is a huge mana sink, but if we have enough mana we can chain together all sorts of plays to help us beat our opponent. 2 Lone Missionary's can gain us 4 life for every 2 mana. As we saw above, we can gain 4 life and destroy a permanent for 7 mana. Wall of Omen's lets us draw a card for 2 mana. Blade splicer gives us a 3/3 Golem for 3 mana. Mulldrifter gives us at least 2 cards for 5 mana (usually 4 cards! More on this in a second). We can also re-buy our Reality Acid with Detention Sphere which if we target one of our creatures with D-Sphere can also net us 4 life, 1 card, 2 cards, or a 3/3 Golem. If we have multiples in play, we benefit even more! Imagine D-Sphere exiling 3 Mulldrifters and returning Reality Acid to your hand, the opponent then sacrifices whatever Reality Acid was enchanting. Now you play Reality Acid on another one of their permanents return D-Sphere to your hand. All 3 Mulldrifters return to the battlefield and you draw 6 cards. All of this for 6 mana!!
A couple of notes on Momentary Blink:
1. If you Evoke Mulldrifter, you can stack the triggers to draw 2 cards before sacrificing Mulldrifter. You can then draw 2 and in response cast Momentary Blink on your Mulldrifter. When it comes back into play you will get 2 more cards and you won't have to sacrifice it.
2. We will never hard-cast Akroma, Angel of Fury or Sagu Mauler, but we can put them into play as a Morph creature. Then if we case Momentary Blink targeting Akroma or Sagu, they will come back as a huge creatures that are hard to kill (protection and hexproof).
Also, some games you will just go aggro. Chaining Blade Splicer, Momentary Blink, and Kor Skyfisher can really get the job done.
Sideboard:
1. Spreading Seas is to cut players off from their mana quicker than in game 1. Mostly I'm thinking this would help versus Junk (or other greedy mana bases) and Tron.
2. Rest in Peace is obviously for graveyard based decks that we otherwise can't interact with: Storm, Dredgevine, etc.
3. Akroma, Angel of Fury and Sagu Mauler are for when our slow, value-based gameplan isn't good enough and we need a fast clock.
4. Disenchant is mostly for Splinter Twin, but any other Artifact or Enchantment that's annoying can be dealt with too.
5. Lastly, Familiar's Ruse is for everything else that we need to stop. It's a hard counter and the draw-back doesn't affect us much, if at all, and many times helps us.
Card choices without regard for budget:
1. Lands... as usual. I wouldn't just jam in full playsets of Fetches and Shocks as we're trying to gain incremental advantage from our plays, but thinning the deck a bit would be helpful. I'd lean towards Fetchlands and Glacial Fortress but maybe leave the Hallowed Fountains out.
2. Æther Vial seems right at home in a deck like this. We're bouncing creatures to our hand, so putting them back into play for free is awesome! Also, it allows us to play creatures at instant speed, which when combined with Cloudstone Curio means we can bounce creatures at instant speed too! This means we can chump block and save our guy without taking damage. Or, evoke Mulldrifter and then bounce it back to our hand netting 2 cards. And more!! This is probably the best addition you could make to this deck.
3. I would want to change Sagu Mauler into a second Akroma, Angel of Fury as a finisher. I would look into Restoration Angel, which seems like it could have really good synergy. Path to Exile might not be necessary, but having a couple in the sideboard would make me feel safer.
Let me know if you have any suggestions as this isn't a finished product.
*** THE DECKLIST ***
TIMESTAMP: 3:27 p.m. May 9th 2015.
9 Island
6 Forest
1 Plains
SORTA LANDS - 8
4 Wildfield Borderpost
4 Fieldmist Borderpost
CREATURES - 15
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Coiling Oracle
3 Judge's Familiar
2 Path to Exile
2 Unsummon
4 Into the Roil
4 Think Twice
4 Rune Snag
3 Familiar's Ruse
2 Condescend
2 Rancor
3 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Supreme Verdict
3 Timely Reinforcements
3 Disenchant
CURVE (0 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 4 ): 0 / 11 / 35 / 3 / 2
AVERAGE CMC: 1.92
CURRENT COST: $50.94
*** BACKGROUND ***
Miracle Gro was designed to put out an early threat (e.g., Quirion Dryad) and then keep tempo with the opponent (counter their spells, bounce their permanents, etc.) while Quirion Dryad got bigger and also beat the opponent to death.
A few problems with this plan: Most of the cards from Mircle Gro aren't Modern legal. Also, there are some really good new options that are way out of budget (e.g., Snapcaster Mage). Let's not let this dissuade us from making an awesomely fun deck!
The core plan of the deck should remain the same: Drop Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu. These cards will get big naturally as spells are cast. This means that drawing cards, countering the opponents spells, and bouncing their permanents gives more bang for the buck than usual. So, at least 1 of these should be in your opening hand. It might be correct to keep other hands, but I'd usually recommend against it.
I also really like the interaction with the borderposts (e.g., Fieldmist Borderpost). Basically, when the borderpost is cast for its alternative cost it counts as a spell and pumps Quirion Dryad. It also returns a land which can then come in and pump Vinelasher Kudzu. Coiling Oracle is also a great value card as it pumps Quirion Dryad, then can cheat a land into play pumping Vinelasher Kudzu. "Worst" case, it doesn't hit a land and draws a card, the horror. Coiling Oracle is also the primary target for Familiar's Ruse as it turns the drawback into a boon. However, if Coiling Oracle isn't in play, it's generally a bad idea to return Quirion Dryad or Vinelasher Kudzu to hand as they probably have counters on them and are the deck's win condition. That's the main reason Judge's Familiar is in the deck, but it also helps with tempo and pumps Quirion Dryad. Ideally I'd be using Snapcaster Mage, but it's too expensive.
Bounce and counter spells will generally be played on the opponent and their permanents/spells. However, keep in mind that these can also function as combat tricks or value plays.
Example 1: the opponent is at 8 life and all of their creatures are tapped. We have a 5/5 Quirion Dryad on the board, but we'll die next turn. It's entirely reasonable to cast Path to Exile on our Quirion Dryad, counter it with Rune Snag, and then Condescend the Path to Exile for 0 (4 mana total). The Quirion Dryad becomes an 8/8 and lives, we get to Scry 2, and then swing in for lethal damage.
Example 2: You have a Coiling Oracle and 2 Vinelasher Kudzu's in play, the Vinelasher Kudzu's are both 3/3, and the opponent has 10 life. Let's just assume you are once again dead next turn. You can cast Unsummon on your Coiling Oracle, respond by casting Condescend for 0 on Unsummon, pay the 0 cost. You get back your Coiling Oracle and Scry 2, keep a land on top of your Library. Cast Coiling Oracle, this puts the land in play, which triggers your Vinelasher Kudzus' abilities. In response, your opponent casts Lightning Bolt on your Vinelasher Kudzu which would kill one of them. You respond by casting Path to Exile on your Coiling Oracle, fetching a basic land. This pumps your Vinelasher Kudzu's up to 4/4, the Bolt does 3 damage but they live, then the triggered ability resolves pumping your Vinelasher Kudzu's up to 5/5. Swing in for lethal.
These are just two examples, but I think they illustrate how clever play can really impact the game with this deck.
Lastly, the average cost of this deck's spells is under 2. So, you don't need too much mana for this deck to function. The most expensive spell is 4 cmc and that's in the sideboard. In the main deck, there's only a 4 cmc spell if Into the Roil is kicked. Feel free to keep land-light hands. The borderposts may as well count as land and help to fix mana while keeping the deck cheap. I'm honestly wondering if 24 lands is too much.
Card choices without regard for budget:
1. Lands! This is a very obvious inclusion on almost any budget deck's want list. Fetch lands would help thin the deck, doubly pump Vinelasher Kudzu, and help fix mana. Shocklands are less important, but a few wouldn't hurt.
2. Snapcaster Mage is super strong. He can flashback whatever spell you need, so you can play a wider range of spells. He will doubly pump Quirion Dryad. He acts as card advantage. And he can start swinging in for 2 damage.
3. Slightly better spells. The deck is actually naturally cheap. Quirion Dryad and Vinelasher Kudzu are "budget Tarmogoyf", we aren't relying on any super rare cards, and most of our spells are a bit uncommon in popular decks. Still, some improvements could probably be made: Remand, Cryptic Command, Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage, Serum Visions, Path to Exile, etc. I'm not sure if all of these would be good for the deck, but I think adding some as 1-2 of's would help.
Let me know if you have any suggestions as this isn't a finished product.
Thanks for taking the time to read & thoughtfully respond to my post! You actually seem to have a good handle on what you want to do and how you want to do it. I was overestimating the speed at which you wanted to move into Modern, but mostly because I was thinking from an economic point of view and I've seen over the years how much card prices have been rising. That being said, I think things will get reprinted to stay the price of Modern, so if you choose the cards you buy carefully and you do it over several years, then Standard isn't that bad an investment.
Therefore, I will leave you with just a few tips that I think are worth noting:
Anyway, those are just suggestions, so feel free to pick and choose what wisdom you take away from that. Best of luck!!
1. You want to be the best Tier 2 player at your LGS.
2. You want to attain cards that will be valuable in Modern, i.e., shocklands.
3. You want to improve your USA Control deck.
The problem I see is that these three goals are not really that well aligned:
For goal #1 you need practice to get better at MTG. A good deck helps, but being a good player helps more. Control is also the hardest archetype in which to become proficient. You need to play efficiently, know the meta, have the best understanding of the rules, be cautious, etc. Aggro decks, on the other hand, play creatures and turn them sideways. Is there skill to aggro decks? Yes, but much less. I would suggest you play Pauper (commons only). Pauper decks are relatively cheap, costing on average about $30. Pauper decks are quite powerful; more powerful than any Standard deck and arguable on power with many Modern decks. Pauper is also a great way to learn how to play MTG well, and you can experiment with different archetypes easily since the decks are cheap.
For goal #2, Pauper is irrelevant as is Standard. You don't care at all about getting cards like Sphinx's Revelation, Supreme Verdict, Jace, Architect of Thought, etc. The most important cards to get are probably shocklands. You're right that shocklands will probably be at their lowest price in the upcoming months as rotation roles around. Therefore, using your money to buy them is probably the best thing you can do. Lands generally go up in price over time, so it's a good investment in general anyway. Also, not many cards that are played in Standard get played in Modern. Sphinx's Revelation only gets played as a 2-of in Modern USA Control, despite the fact that it's basically a must have 4-of in Standard UWx Control. So, if you really want to play Modern then forget Standard as it will just waste your money. Pick-up shocklands as they rotate out, then figure out what decks you want to play in Modern and slowly start to build them. Note that Modern can be _very_ expensive with top tier decks being $1300-$2000. Budget Modern decks that cost about $200 can be very good and if you are willing to spend around $500 then you can make a slightly budget version of almost any deck, but you won't have fetchlands or Tarmogoyf.
For goal #3, cards are going to rotate out of the format soon. I would suggest looking towards the future. Getting temple's will be helpful. Mana Confluence (spelling?) will be a must have for most decks. For an idea of what Standard will look like 6 months from now, look at the results of Block Constructed tournaments as these will be the cards that will be available post-rotation. Here's a good place to start looking: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptjou14/top8decks.
So, the TL;DR of this post: Figure out what you _really_ want to accomplish and then slowly work towards that goal. Having multiple, conflicting goals and being disorganized in an effort to reach them will result in failure or, best case, a good deal of lost time and money.
I'm not sure if you just haven't updated yet, but just an FYI, I think I counted 103 cards in your deck.
Pretty cool combination of 3 very fun decks! I also love CoA as a general.
And apparently you are living in a world where these types of posts are acceptable. Hopefully a moderator will take notice and politely tell you to shut the **** up.
Back on topic:
This question is open to anyone, what are your primary targets when you whip back AoS? Since AoS will be exiled at end of turn, which creatures do we leave in the yard vs. bring back to our hand?!
No, I don't believe there are any others in standard currently. The only way I see of getting "extra" value out of creatures that are whipped back would be creatures with sacrifice abilities: Keening Apparition, Corpse Hauler, Burnished Hart, etc.
EDIT: Okay, after minor testing (and I do mean minor) I have to say that nighthowler is AMAZING! Main board for sure; I personally cut Prognostic Sphinx to fit it in. Also, Bane Alley Broker was perfect for getting me the cards I needed, so I like this in conjunction with so many 2-ofs. I'm questioning a few of the spells though: Duress, Dimir Charm, and Warped Physique seem weak to me compared to other options.
I generally dislike mill decks, but this was pretty fun since milling them was not the way I planned on winning. I mean, I was swinging with a 20/20 Consuming Aberration and a 15/15 Returned Phalanx equipped with Nighthowler. What's not to love about that?!
Hopefully you had good luck with this the other night! I enjoy these type of decks, so I thought I'd give it a shot. I already had 99% of the cards on MTGO, so I put this together and got some games in with it. I did make a few changes, based on my experience, which I'll post at the end, but it worked extremely well for me.
Many (too many) opponents rage quit to this deck, which is obviously hilarious.
All-in-all this is basically a Tier 1 control deck, but without the Planeswalkers and Aetherling.
For comparison here is my version of your deck. I cut two Prognostic Sphinx's for some extra land and changed the spells around just a bit. I didn't re-check the price, but this should still be around $10:
9 Plains
13 Island
4 Azorius Guildgate
CREATURES - 6
2 Omenspeaker
2 Archaeomancer
2 Prognostic Sphinx
1 Elixir of Immortality
2 Syncopate
3 Celestial Flare
2 Essence Scatter
4 Azorius Charm
3 Divination
4 Detention Sphere
3 Dissolve
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Haunted Plate Mail
3 Opportunity