Officially, yes, but his behavior dictated that the town regard him as anti-town and pick him off. Cropcircles was playing the game with a scum mind-set, despite having been assigned a killing-survivor. He lied about his claim, lurked hard, killed a townie, and we had no way of knowing what his win condition truly was, and whether he would continue killing more of us and form a voting bloc with the mafia.
Given the info available to us, we had absolutely no choice, as it played out, but to regard him as a must-lynch neutral.
FWIW, this is kind of all bull. As soon as I got this role, I knew the strategic thing for me to do would be to play as a townie. With the ability to survive a nightkill, I was more afraid of getting lynched, and taking down a scum or two was obv the best way to avoid a lynch. Also I'm great at it, and I had a killing ability to potentially L5R this bi-atch. I was actively scum hunting during the brief time that I played. The only thing you came at me with as an accusation was that I was in cahoots with Axel and Zionite, which was absurd, and the lurking which was 100% due to an ability to make time for the game. (Hence, my dropping out)
I was finding it hard to get back into the groove of the game, and usually had to make posts very quickly without thinking about it as much as I normally do. Nevertheless, I was playing with a townie mindset. The only reason I killed Seppel was because the poor bastard gave me some red to work with, and I figured that even if killing scum was the plan, knocking off a townie couldn't hurt in case the scum proved hard to catch. I also never lied about my roll, BTW, I'm assuming you were referring to Void.
Also, I was right about Cyan.
I greatly regret replacing out of this game. As soon as I was out, I started getting a lot less hours at work, and quickly found myself with a fair bit of extra time. I ended up keeping up with the game the entire time, and I really do think I had a good shot at recovering in day 2.
But at least my T/S list on day 1 was 100% correct, even if I didn't have the time to drive any lynches.
I replied to everything in that post, but I hit the undo button near the end, and it deleted most of it. I'll have to finish tomorrow, I'm out of time.
FM's 261, the WOLG Wagon Post. Aside from the interactions described earlier, this post skips over commenting on ZDS entirely. He now says that he thought ZDS was strongly pro-town immediately after he was saved by Seppel - enough that he says that he would be shocked if ZDS flipped scum. How come such a strong and contrary read showed up nowhere in this post, or any after it? I call BS. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10028674&postcount=261
Still stuck on Cyan, with a critique of Axel at the end. Again, he seems unusually sensitive and ahead-of-the-game in identifying Axel errors, but he doesn't push it. Literally, the only things he's done this game is repeatedly pester Cyan, and occasionally make strangely insightful critiques of Axelrod. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showpost.php?p=10046609&postcount=369
Not much to say here. I wanted a reaction from Iso to make up my mind about something that seemed like a tell, but was too weak a tell without something further.
Frophmoff - The biggest point against FM is that mysterious way in which he scoped in on the Zionite/Axelrod tag-team against WOLG. As detailed above, it was one of the few interaction that's happened in the thread that rated a somewhat detailed post, and a pretty ahead-of-time conclusion that the WOLG wagon really stunk.
I did not "scope in" on that wagon. That implies I picked it out without good reason. But I actually had a reason, a reason I stated when I chimed in. When I don't agree with a wagon, I'm usually pretty content to sit back and let it play out anyway, and let the suspect do the explaining rather than coming to his defense. However, Axelrod's case was slanted, and it took Well from no attention to L-2 way too fast for comfort. My conclusion was not at all "ahead-of-time." I felt the wagon stunk from Axel's first post on the matter, and it pushed Well into claim range based on weird phrasing. I don't need a certain amount of time to come to that conclusion. First reading of it was plenty.
Quote from Azrael »
FM has been lurking hard, and the fact that he scoped in on that one particular reaction out of all the other things he could have involved himself, and clearly signalled that he'd read it in detail - it damns not only him, but also Axelrod and Zionite in the bargain.
First off all, I get very little time for mafia, so in many of my posts I pick the one or two things I feel are most important to comment on, simply because I don't have the time available to post in as much detail as I used to. A player being at L-2 coming from a slanted analysis was what I considered to be the most important thing that I needed to comment on.
And I've read the entire thread in detail, whether I've signaled it or not. I don't understand how showing that I've read that particular part has anything to do with anything.
Quote from Azrael »
Couple that with his throw-away sniping comments, some bad attacks on Cyan that make very little sense, and you have a solid case.
Would you care to explain how my attacks on Cyan don't make sense? You've called the case "boring stuff" and downplayed it a lot, but you have not shown what about it doesn't make sense to you.
Also, a case that relies on knowing the alignments of two other players is not solid. I suspect Ax and Zionite as much as the next guy, but trying to pin an entire scum team on day 1 is doomed to failure. How you consider that "solid" is beyond me.
Azrael - First on my town list. The early game crusade is a tough thing for scum to fake, and his hunting reads genuine. I don't feel a need to go into great detail as I think most everyone sees and agrees with this.
Iso - Next best townie. Never played with him before, so he's tougher to read, but no red flags showing up, mixed with some solid scum hunting. The claimed day kill solidifies this, as he will have to prove it eventually, and the boldness in coming out with, while perhaps misguided, smells strongly of townie confidence.
ZeDorkSlipeur - His breakdown just before he got saved by seppel reads very strongly as town. Less solid then the previous two, but still, I would be quite shocked to see this guy flip scum.
DYH - I disagree with his assessment of Iso's day kill claim, and find his logic faulty there. However, that was the first post all game to give me any pause about DYH. Obviously, I've agreed with his assessment of Cyan, and in general his play has been solid.
WoLG - Most of the attacks on him seem to be over weird phrasing, iirc, which is par for the course with WoLG. He's also carrying a confidence in his responses that rings townie-true.
Ged - Very little to go off of, but no flags. Explanation of his play match general Ged play, and his reads feel well placed. Pretty null, leaning town.
Archmage Eternal - I consistently have a difficult time reading AE, and typically just find him frustrating. The few bits I have been getting have been vaguely townie, namely the general indignant tone to many of his responses. I've had an eye on him, simply because I'm getting more town reads than scum reads in this game, and he looks bad simply by PoE, but it is far too early to use PoE too much. This wagon looks like a scapegoat to me, and I think we have better targets.
Axelrod - I've been watching Ax since his case on Well, which struck me as heavily slanted. I've seen little to sway me one way or the other since then, but I haven't had time to review his AE case in much detail. Leaning slightly scum, but I need to do another reread.
Zionite - I agree with Az's assessment of his policy lynch idea in the early game. More specifically, when a townie lays a trap in RVS, they leave it open for anyone to fall into. Zionite targeted AE, who is prone to react emotionally. It makes more sense coming from the perspective of a scum trying to get a townie who is prone to reaction to compromise themselves, and then let others focus on and push for a lynch. Don't like Z overall.
Cyan - Still think he's scum. I don't know how to explain it any way other than I already have, but the wishy-washy tone of his early posts, and the tiptoeing feel of his questioning other players reads like a scum trying not to rock the boat.
Computer has been crashing lately, so I'm gonna post this before I lose it, and then I will respond to Az.
It certainly isn't "pro-town." Lurking in general is a null tell, as it is often tied mostly to play style and real life circumstances, and not to alignment. Lurking in plain sight implies that one is actively trying to avoid conflict, which makes more sense from the viewpoint of hiding scum than from the viewpoint of a townie on the hunt.
I disagree that I am not keeping abreast of things.
You didn't even realize that your primary suspect had claimed, so yeah, I would say that you have not been keeping abreast of things.
Quote from Cyan »
I was involved early in the game w/ Zionite vs. AE. I missed the *entire* ZDS wagon because I didn't post for a day. I've been plenty active since then. Just because I'm not voting as much as you seem to be used to doesn't mean that I'm not participating. It took me longer than I anticipated to put up my PBPA of AE because my work was busier than I anticipated for the last few days. But I still got to it in reasonable time.
It's not just that you haven't been voting as much as normal, it's that you haven't voted at all until just now. That is suspect.
Quote from Cyan »
I'm simply not the prolific poster that I used to be. I can't be. Too much complete and unadulterated spam is allowed in mafia games now, making it impossible for me to be one of the top posters. Even though I never let on about it, I used to love to see that I had more posts than most everyone else, especially given that my posts were almost never spammy. Now that I can't win the fight, I don't really even participate in the fight.
The point is far more about content than it is about quantity. I certainly consider this to be a case of plain sight lurking, but it is the "plain sight" aspect that is telling, not the lurking.
Quote from Cyan »
Ultimately, it seems to me that you're just trying to say that hypocrisy is not a scum tell.
You are twisting my words and making a false comparison to make it look hypocritical. In the very post you are responding to here, I said "Plain-sight lurking implies that you are posting some, but avoiding real interaction or content. Which is exactly what I accused you of." In response, you go on about your level of activity and your post count. There is no hypocrisy because a low post count is not a scum tell, and I never said it was.
You are ignoring the fact that I have been attacking your content and not your post count, and instead you are focusing on the lurker aspect to try and make my case look hypocritical. This is a straw man, and another point against you.
This is not hard. A Townie killing Seppel would claim it. We don't need to "call" on them to claim it. They pretty much have to. It doesn't matter if people are saying "only scum would do such a thing." The Townie sucks it up and admits it.
YOU HEAR THAT HYPOTHETICAL STUPID TOWNIE?
At the same time, the odds a scum daykilling Seppel would step forward and claim it in an effort to look like a stupid Townie are so miniscule as to be not really worth considering. We are not scaring them off of doing so by pointing out how no Townie in his right mind would do such a thing. They already know this. They won't claim it. Because it would be dumb.
No one is claiming this.
While I agree with the general sentiment, this post seems unreasonably certain, and strangely agitated.
@FrophMoff: That's pretty amusing coming from a gimmick with 5 posts(the least in the game). How is life in double standard land?
I facepalmed a little when my snarkiness was met with a wall sized, content filled post from you, but nevertheless, my point was that Az says there is no case against you, then says he is going to go look for someone who is doing almost exactly what I accused you of doing. Which is a valid point regardless of what I am doing.
And there is a difference between lurking and plain-sight lurking, imo. Plain-sight lurking implies that you are posting some, but avoiding real interaction or content. Which is exactly what I accused you of.
I'm getting a pretty good townie feel from WoLG, and Axelrod's case reads slanted to me. WoLG didn't explain himself well in many of his earlier posts, and his phrasing is always a little weird, but his responses to Axel make sense to me. This wagon went from nothing to L-2 waaaaaay too fast for my comfort, and gives me all kinds off icky feelings about everyone on board. Do. Not. Approve.
Quote from Cyan »
@Froph: I have, in fact, accused ZDS of being scum repeatedly now. I would have happily voted him(including hammering him if he was at L-1) if I had the opportunity to do so. I have already stated this as well.
All you had said about ZDS before Seppel blocked the lynch is that he is "normally so cautious." All the stuff about wanting to lynch him came after it was no longer possible. Showing support for a lynch that can't happen does nothing to hunt scum, or to help your case.
Quote from Cyan »
Have I voted for anyone else yet? No, I haven't. His behavior has been awful. His latest post is a great example of this. He casts suspicion on 3 people, including Ged(even though he says that Ged's posting is decent and Unvoted him at the start of the post) but somehow ends up voting me, not because he thinks I'm the most likely to be scum, but because I'm the easiest person for him to vote for. Unfortunately, we can't lynch ZDS. And that has created a weird void where I'm not sure whom to vote for.
Which is very strange behavior from you. What bothers me here isn't just a change in play style. Even if your style has changed, your intellect has not, and the Cyan I am used to is much better at reading tells and picking a target.
Quote from Cyan »
The problem is that the ZDS wagon provided no currently useful information. We didn't even get a claim to analyze from him. We're effectively at a point where it's like the ZDS wagon didn't happen...except that it did.
The fact that you don't remember that he claimed might be the most telling. I think if you were really trying to figure out who is scum and who is town, you would pay enough attention to notice and remember something that important.
Well, I'm pretty sure Froph must really be Chamber. Because he's lurking exactly like Chamber always did. *wry smile*
Welcome back, Chamber!
As if chamber were the only lurker on this site.
Has anyone else noticed how Cyan hasn't made a single accusation all game, let alone even vote? All of his posts are questioning other players, but he's being very passive, and lacks the accusatory tone of Cyan on the hunt. Laying low Cyan?
If this is an attempt to trap me, I'm pretty disappointed. Given that I consider Cyberspace Mafia to be my worst game ever, I hope that no game I ever play is similar to it.
...reads like a scum brushing off a question, instead of a townie explaining behavior.
I was finding it hard to get back into the groove of the game, and usually had to make posts very quickly without thinking about it as much as I normally do. Nevertheless, I was playing with a townie mindset. The only reason I killed Seppel was because the poor bastard gave me some red to work with, and I figured that even if killing scum was the plan, knocking off a townie couldn't hurt in case the scum proved hard to catch. I also never lied about my roll, BTW, I'm assuming you were referring to Void.
Also, I was right about Cyan.
I greatly regret replacing out of this game. As soon as I was out, I started getting a lot less hours at work, and quickly found myself with a fair bit of extra time. I ended up keeping up with the game the entire time, and I really do think I had a good shot at recovering in day 2.
But at least my T/S list on day 1 was 100% correct, even if I didn't have the time to drive any lynches.
I replied to everything in that post, but I hit the undo button near the end, and it deleted most of it. I'll have to finish tomorrow, I'm out of time.
First off all, I get very little time for mafia, so in many of my posts I pick the one or two things I feel are most important to comment on, simply because I don't have the time available to post in as much detail as I used to. A player being at L-2 coming from a slanted analysis was what I considered to be the most important thing that I needed to comment on.
And I've read the entire thread in detail, whether I've signaled it or not. I don't understand how showing that I've read that particular part has anything to do with anything.
Would you care to explain how my attacks on Cyan don't make sense? You've called the case "boring stuff" and downplayed it a lot, but you have not shown what about it doesn't make sense to you.
Also, a case that relies on knowing the alignments of two other players is not solid. I suspect Ax and Zionite as much as the next guy, but trying to pin an entire scum team on day 1 is doomed to failure. How you consider that "solid" is beyond me.
Azrael - First on my town list. The early game crusade is a tough thing for scum to fake, and his hunting reads genuine. I don't feel a need to go into great detail as I think most everyone sees and agrees with this.
Iso - Next best townie. Never played with him before, so he's tougher to read, but no red flags showing up, mixed with some solid scum hunting. The claimed day kill solidifies this, as he will have to prove it eventually, and the boldness in coming out with, while perhaps misguided, smells strongly of townie confidence.
ZeDorkSlipeur - His breakdown just before he got saved by seppel reads very strongly as town. Less solid then the previous two, but still, I would be quite shocked to see this guy flip scum.
DYH - I disagree with his assessment of Iso's day kill claim, and find his logic faulty there. However, that was the first post all game to give me any pause about DYH. Obviously, I've agreed with his assessment of Cyan, and in general his play has been solid.
WoLG - Most of the attacks on him seem to be over weird phrasing, iirc, which is par for the course with WoLG. He's also carrying a confidence in his responses that rings townie-true.
Ged - Very little to go off of, but no flags. Explanation of his play match general Ged play, and his reads feel well placed. Pretty null, leaning town.
Archmage Eternal - I consistently have a difficult time reading AE, and typically just find him frustrating. The few bits I have been getting have been vaguely townie, namely the general indignant tone to many of his responses. I've had an eye on him, simply because I'm getting more town reads than scum reads in this game, and he looks bad simply by PoE, but it is far too early to use PoE too much. This wagon looks like a scapegoat to me, and I think we have better targets.
Axelrod - I've been watching Ax since his case on Well, which struck me as heavily slanted. I've seen little to sway me one way or the other since then, but I haven't had time to review his AE case in much detail. Leaning slightly scum, but I need to do another reread.
Zionite - I agree with Az's assessment of his policy lynch idea in the early game. More specifically, when a townie lays a trap in RVS, they leave it open for anyone to fall into. Zionite targeted AE, who is prone to react emotionally. It makes more sense coming from the perspective of a scum trying to get a townie who is prone to reaction to compromise themselves, and then let others focus on and push for a lynch. Don't like Z overall.
Cyan - Still think he's scum. I don't know how to explain it any way other than I already have, but the wishy-washy tone of his early posts, and the tiptoeing feel of his questioning other players reads like a scum trying not to rock the boat.
You didn't even realize that your primary suspect had claimed, so yeah, I would say that you have not been keeping abreast of things.
It's not just that you haven't been voting as much as normal, it's that you haven't voted at all until just now. That is suspect.
The point is far more about content than it is about quantity. I certainly consider this to be a case of plain sight lurking, but it is the "plain sight" aspect that is telling, not the lurking.
You are twisting my words and making a false comparison to make it look hypocritical. In the very post you are responding to here, I said "Plain-sight lurking implies that you are posting some, but avoiding real interaction or content. Which is exactly what I accused you of." In response, you go on about your level of activity and your post count. There is no hypocrisy because a low post count is not a scum tell, and I never said it was.
You are ignoring the fact that I have been attacking your content and not your post count, and instead you are focusing on the lurker aspect to try and make my case look hypocritical. This is a straw man, and another point against you.
And there is a difference between lurking and plain-sight lurking, imo. Plain-sight lurking implies that you are posting some, but avoiding real interaction or content. Which is exactly what I accused you of.
All you had said about ZDS before Seppel blocked the lynch is that he is "normally so cautious." All the stuff about wanting to lynch him came after it was no longer possible. Showing support for a lynch that can't happen does nothing to hunt scum, or to help your case.
Which is very strange behavior from you. What bothers me here isn't just a change in play style. Even if your style has changed, your intellect has not, and the Cyan I am used to is much better at reading tells and picking a target.
The fact that you don't remember that he claimed might be the most telling. I think if you were really trying to figure out who is scum and who is town, you would pay enough attention to notice and remember something that important.
Has anyone else noticed how Cyan hasn't made a single accusation all game, let alone even vote? All of his posts are questioning other players, but he's being very passive, and lacks the accusatory tone of Cyan on the hunt. Laying low Cyan?
Also this:
...reads like a scum brushing off a question, instead of a townie explaining behavior.
Unvote
Vote Cyan