I'm a big fan of creating as much parity as it is sensible between the Duel Commander banlist and the Legacy banlist. Mystical Tutor is a stupidly powerful card that creates too much consistency in searching for wraths (even the one-mana Terminus) and game-ending bombs (like Upheaval and Armageddon). But for the same reasoning, I'm really not a fan of Demonic Tutor being legal, nor am I fan of Survival of the Fittest. I understand both D-Tutor and Survival help several key non-blue decks, but once again, they create too much consistency at too low of a CMC, which is why they are banned in Legacy. In fact, banning Survival could even bring Loyal Retainers off the banlist.
Anyways, I'm always a fan of banning Vintage restricted tutors, but I think it's fair to be more symmetrical in doing so. And if that means that we move to a 25 life total to keep creatures deck relevant, then so be it.
I'm happy that no one here seems to be freaking out (in a negative way) like my playgroup has about this banlist update. I really like the direction, with banning key combo enablers and unbanning stax-related cards. The Top unban might benefit aggro more than control, but that change confuses me the most, because I have no idea how Top will really affect the format. The Braids unban seems interesting and shouldn't be too game-changing. That deck is hard to beat when it gets Dark Ritual and Reassembling Skeleton in its opening hand, but is otherwise a mediocre pox deck.
Overall, I'm excited to see how these changes pan out. I like the direction the committee is taking, but the results will have to stand the test of time.
You don't need Arcane Lighthouse in this deck. You can play Crackling Doom, which is surprisingly strong, for having an out to hexproof and protection. As for your mana base, who says you can't play 6 basics AND Blood Moon? Your deck is base red and your general only requires red mana. If you resolve turn 3 blood moon against non-red two and three color decks, they pretty much always lose right there. It seems worth it to me. Stillmoon Cavalier, Fire Imp, Rakdos Shred-freak, and Torch Fiend all seem lacking. I'd rather see Kiki Jiki, Ravenous Baboons, Herald of Leshrac, and Bloodghast.
There's also a tournament happening in Ann Arbor this Saturday!
French Duel Commander January 31
Get Your Game On
310 S. State Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48104
(734) 786-3746
Please come on out! $10 Entry fee, store opens at 11:00am, tournament starts at 12:00pm. Hope to see a lot of people there, turnouts are usually between 10 and 20 people with multiple competitive decks!
I was an idiot for taking out Vedalken Shackles, but sometimes you gotta test. Treachery is staying out of the deck for me, it's sooo powerful but does nothing until turn 5 and is risky. Too many times has my opponent cast Path to Exile on his bomb to stop my treachery while netting a land. Shackles went back in over Stifle, which is an extremely powerful card that is also just very risky. It counters certain effects that are very powerful, but it also does nothing quite often. I will keep watch on missing this card.
I really want to talk about some of the cards you mentioned. Telling Time, Impulse, and Flash of Insight I have tested and could care less for, but I've had moderate success with Think Twice. Other cards I'm considering are Dissolve (which I like better than Dissipate), and either Peek or Opt. Which cantrip is better?
Lastly, I've been struggling against blue decks more and more. Maybe it's time for Flusterstorm.
My deck also played Stormtide Leviathan. Cute, and more pet card than efficient, but the pseudo Moat plus half colour fixing was relevant. You don't want to play it until t10 ideally, but Nin plays to the super late anyway so I don't see that as a problem.
I play Treasure Cruise and Dig in Wydwen with Pike and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Pike isn't giving +10 like it used to, but it still gives +6. With fetches, planeswalkers, and some creatures and enchantments, you can delve away enough to not hurt too much. I've cruised on turn 5 (delving 7), Dig'd three turns later, and still had a Pike on +5 to close out the game the following turn. Cantrips and delving the right cards adds up big-time.
The reason why I'm so critical when it comes to Nin decklists is because I honestly feel like it's my hardest match-up in all of French/Duel Commander. Nin just goes over the top of any other blue deck (in terms of cards) and has pyroclasm effects to beat small creature decks, which puts it in a great meta position. I think it's a really strong deck that's only weak to Geist, Graveyard decks, and Doran/Anafenza. I also feel like this is not a deck where you ever play big scary threats. Those cards are just so bad to draw before turn 8, and it's not like you have a way to tutor for them. Nin should have a low curve, be efficient with its mana, and win off of a smattering of cheap and flexible threats.
And to be honest, I think Intuition is pretty bad in Nin. Slow tool-box effects like that can't compare to a density of strong cards, especially when the deck has so much innate card draw.
Although Aetherling isn't quite as bad as Prognostic Sphinx, both of these cards are terrible win conditions. Same goes for Frost Titan. Where's the Young Pyromancer, Grim Lavamancer, and Dragonmaster Outcast? Actually, even Chasm Skulker is pretty good as a win condition. But these durdly creatures that you are forced to tap out for are reeeeaaaalllly bad. Nin can control the lategame just fine, with sheer card advantage. It's more sensible for the deck to present cheap wincons that come out early, deal with early threats, and eventually close out the game.
And I can't tell if Mystic Retrieval is a joke or not... No competitive decklist includes this card or would ever want to. It's both slow and useless against graveyard hate. And it's a sorcery.
On another note, Sudden Demise and Anger of the Gods seem like really good cards at the moment. However, I think Nin's biggest problem is dealing with Black/Green/White decks, like Anafenza and Doran. I honestly think Combust may have a place in the current meta.
edit: ok maybe you can use the blue ability in some kind of turbo fog deck which wins by milling your oponent with cards like jace beleren, fonth of mythos or ebony owl netsuke
This was actually one of the thoughts I have been toying with. A combination of Mind Over Matter+Selvala, Explorer Returned or Temple Bell. And since Selvala is an elf we might as well run a bunch of other elfs along withCraterhoof Behemoth for an alternate win-con. Being in bant colors we also get support for Academy Rector and Momir Vig, Simic Visionary to tutor Mind Over Matter and Selvala. This is however a recent idea, so haven't had the time to play around with it. Besides have never actually played a combo deck so not sure if it would be fast enough.
Anyways, thanks for the feedback KriggY
I'm not sure that there's a point to this approach when Kami of the Crescent Moon is an already-established mill deck that can also Polymorph in an Emrakul, Aeons Torn. Don't be too discouraged by this, but you simply cannot be both "competitive" in French EDH and have a flying purple hippo as your general. Accept this, and reevaluate how badly you desire to play the Griff.
So I've tidied up the OP to conform with MTG Salvation's new formatting rules. There's also a Khan's decklist update.
Out:Vedalken Shackles and Treachery.
These cards have their ups and downs. Vedalken Shackles is so disgustingly bad against so many decks; Jenara, Maelstrom Wanderer, Marath, Ezuri, Thalia, Skullbriar, Anafenza, Iname, Thraximundrar, Geist, Griselbrand, Thassa, etc. But it's also brutally good against Vendilion Clique, Nin, Doran, and Talrand and sometimes Animar. Eh, one of those lists is longer than the other. Since my Nin matchup is already pretty bad, I knew I had to replace Shackles with something strong against control, but also that could help answer creatures. Treachery, on the other hand, performs very well when it resolves. And that's a big if in this format. Though the card is brilliant against Maesltrom Wanderer, it's quite bad against many other decks. Also it makes my mulligans that much more difficult.
In:Gitaxian Probe and Dig Through Time
Alright, I give in. My matchups against control have been disheartening as of late, especially against the counterspell-heavy Nin, so I'd like to see my opponents hand now. Also, cantrips rule, and they work well with delve. Speaking of delve, Dig Through Time is absolutely nuts. Taking out Shackles and Treachery demands that I add more creature-control. Hmm, how about draw spells that are amazing against control because they net card advantage, work at instant speed, can cost as little as two mana, and dig seven cards deep for Toxic Deluge? Yup sounds good.
I really need to play-test now with my graveyard in mind. If I can consistently reach Threshold by turn 5, I will start playing Treasure Cruise. The issue with cruise is that unlike Dig Through Time, which is a instant speed pseudo-tutor that feels fine at four mana, Treasure Cruise has to cost less than four mana to feel worth it. I refuse to play Concentrate.
If you aren't running CITP creatures, you can try Torpor Orb to combat the clique player. That should at least just make him have a 3/1 flying flash creature that doesn't do anything else.
Torpor Orb is a very conditional answer against certain creature and combo decks that demands that we tap out on turn 2. I have nothing against tapping out on turn 2 for a pro-active card like Bitterblossom or Dark Confidant, but T-Orb feels slow, clunky, and often irrelevant when drawn later on in the game. I prefer a wider range of 2CMC counter-magic to deal with early creature-based threats.
Thanks for the advice! i'm using bitterblossom too if bitterblossom or phyrexian arena resolves is game, i was playing as you said and i crushed him in the first match, second match in the second turn he casted VC with mox, third turn wasteland. third match i got mana screwed and he used 2 times wasteland, and a tectonic edge the game went to turns and sadly i lost in the last one. But i feel that i have a slightly advantage in this match. What you think about bitterblossom ? in my field almost all decks runs blue
Yeah, in my opinion, Bitterblossom is habitually underrated by this community. It's a very real threat against many control decks and provides a lot of breathing room against Jenara as well, as it supplies an endless stream of chump blockers. VenClique literally cannot beat a resolved Bitterblossom without bouncing and then countering it.
I took a look at your decklist and I'm curious how Swan Song has worked for you. This is a card I once tested, and I was met with paradoxical results. Sometimes it stops your opponents T2 Sylvan Library or Survival of the Fittest, while other times it's a dead card that gives your opponent a chump blocker. How do you feel about it?
I would recommend that you play Drown in Sorrow. It's very strong in this meta. Also, with Jenara being a top deck again, Ulcerate has secured a spot in my 99. I've been super happy with it. I would recommend playing Ponder as well, it's basically better than Preordain if you have a fetch. Also, if Soul Manipulation is good enough, then Exclude needs to find a spot in your deck, it's very strong against a majority of decks. Also, Nihil Spellbomb seems better than Relic.
Lastly, you might wanna revamp your mana-base. It looks to have a lot of tapped lands and weak to Blood Moon.
Your approach and thoughts are much appreciated and I'm glad you're having fun and success with this deck I plan on attending a tournament in Ann Arbor at Get Your Game On this Saturday, and I will post my results and thoughts afterwards.
The other problem with top and crucible for that matter is that it would be in every single competitive deck. There is almost no reason not to throw top in any 100 card deck.
i wouldn't run crucible in my duel commander deck. i recently cut it from my multiplayer edh deck as well.
top i agree, as long as the reason is the "goes in any deck". i never saw the time issue, as slow play is applyable everywhere.
Totally agree on Crucible. It's strong in stax decks but it's really not that strong in many other decks. Honestly, it's meh in control decks now that Aggro decks are having a field day with the Oloro banning. Good time to unban it. Not as much on Top.
Also, I'm not sure what this forum's opinion on shameless plugs is, but there is a 1v1 Duel Commander tournament happening at Get Your Game On, in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 23rd. Tournament starts at 12pm (Entry and prized TBD). Location info can be found here http://www.getyourgameonline.com/about/
I hope people who are near can come on out! Sorry for the advertising, just hoping to grow the community.
I'm glad you liked Ulcerate. Though 3 life is actually an annoying drawback, the ability to kill a T2 Marath makes it stronger than Disfigure. I completely agree on Consume the Meek. The card is too slow against the decks it is good against, and is very narrow at that. Once I get my hands on an Aetherspouts though, I'm going to try it out.
V-Clique vs Wydwen is a strange matchup where no one feels comfortable playing any spells. You're best route to victory is manlands. Cheap removal, counterspells, and manlands is a good recipe against a tempo deck that heavily relies on a 3/1 flier. Try to save your counterspells for the things that matter. This would include strong draw-spells, like Jace's Ingenuity or Ancestral Visions, and the gamebreaker that is Tunnel Vision (and Polymorph if they are playing it).
You are not really the beatdown in this matchup, since Clique is both faster and more tempo-based. Play conservatively but remember that it's okay for Clique to hit you a few times before Runechanter's Pike comes out. The goal is to resolve more card-advantage spells like Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Arena, and Skeletal Scrying or lock them out with Umezawa's Jitte and any creature/manland in your deck. Just don't go card-for-card with them and put yourself into counterspell-wars that you can't win. Capitalize on the black part of your deck.
Consider adding Daze and Disrupt to help with control mirrors.
Yay my favorite deck is relevant again! Okay, first things first, I have made some deck updates.
Maze of Ith is now Faerie Conclave. This change is pretty straight-forward, we need lands that make mana and we struggle against planeswalkers. Besides, Maze is bad against aggro decks anyways.
Pithing Needle is now Ulcerate. Honestly Disfigure may be better, I'm just testing Ulcerate to see if 3 life is worth being able to also kill Marath. Too many mana dorks in this format now to not play it, and Faerie Conclave can shore up our weakness to planeswalkers. Losing Pithing Needle against Nin is sad, but Ulcerate can kill her too.
Power Sink is now Daze. This is a necessary change, as the format has slowly been speeding up over time, and we now need more ways to protect our turn 4 Wydwen our stop our opponent's turn 2 Stoneforge.
Impulse is now Baleful Strix. I'm happy to see my favorite bird back in the 99. It's a great card, I just couldn't justify it before Oloro was banned.
So what about Phyrexian Arena? If you play JTMS and you like it, then you should know that this JTMS costs 3 mana. Don't jam this on three you guys. Play arena on turn 5 or 6 with counter backup and win the damn game off of it. And that's all I have to say about that. Consume the Meek is a card I've tested and found underwhelming. However, I really need to get my hands on an Aetherspouts because that card looks very strong and deserves some testing. Soul Manipulation is a very cute card, especially with Baleful Strix and Snapcaster. Who else has tried this out and likes it?
Its not that the deck cant handle cavern of souls but its very difficult. Even worse is maze of ith. And those two lands limits the posibility of using wastelands more agresively on other lands. Ofc. the real possibility is that I didnt play the deck optimaly.
To be honest, the deck has taken me a very long time to optimize. It's also quite frustratingly difficult to play at times. But out of all my criticisms of the deck, its "inability" to deal with Cavern of Souls is towards the bottom of the list. Black removal and hand disruption is very strong, and should never be taken lightly. The deck's most noticeable weakness is its inability to reliably deal with broken 2CMC enchantments, like Survival of the Fittest, Bitterblossom, Sylvan Library, etc.
Anyways, I'm always a fan of banning Vintage restricted tutors, but I think it's fair to be more symmetrical in doing so. And if that means that we move to a 25 life total to keep creatures deck relevant, then so be it.
Overall, I'm excited to see how these changes pan out. I like the direction the committee is taking, but the results will have to stand the test of time.
I'm actually very confused as to why Alesha didn't perform better, especially with that control heavy meta.
French Duel Commander January 31
Get Your Game On
310 S. State Street, Ann Arbor, MI 48104
(734) 786-3746
Please come on out! $10 Entry fee, store opens at 11:00am, tournament starts at 12:00pm. Hope to see a lot of people there, turnouts are usually between 10 and 20 people with multiple competitive decks!
I really want to talk about some of the cards you mentioned. Telling Time, Impulse, and Flash of Insight I have tested and could care less for, but I've had moderate success with Think Twice. Other cards I'm considering are Dissolve (which I like better than Dissipate), and either Peek or Opt. Which cantrip is better?
Lastly, I've been struggling against blue decks more and more. Maybe it's time for Flusterstorm.
I play Treasure Cruise and Dig in Wydwen with Pike and it's not as bad as I thought it would be. Pike isn't giving +10 like it used to, but it still gives +6. With fetches, planeswalkers, and some creatures and enchantments, you can delve away enough to not hurt too much. I've cruised on turn 5 (delving 7), Dig'd three turns later, and still had a Pike on +5 to close out the game the following turn. Cantrips and delving the right cards adds up big-time.
The reason why I'm so critical when it comes to Nin decklists is because I honestly feel like it's my hardest match-up in all of French/Duel Commander. Nin just goes over the top of any other blue deck (in terms of cards) and has pyroclasm effects to beat small creature decks, which puts it in a great meta position. I think it's a really strong deck that's only weak to Geist, Graveyard decks, and Doran/Anafenza. I also feel like this is not a deck where you ever play big scary threats. Those cards are just so bad to draw before turn 8, and it's not like you have a way to tutor for them. Nin should have a low curve, be efficient with its mana, and win off of a smattering of cheap and flexible threats.
And to be honest, I think Intuition is pretty bad in Nin. Slow tool-box effects like that can't compare to a density of strong cards, especially when the deck has so much innate card draw.
And I can't tell if Mystic Retrieval is a joke or not... No competitive decklist includes this card or would ever want to. It's both slow and useless against graveyard hate. And it's a sorcery.
On another note, Sudden Demise and Anger of the Gods seem like really good cards at the moment. However, I think Nin's biggest problem is dealing with Black/Green/White decks, like Anafenza and Doran. I honestly think Combust may have a place in the current meta.
I'm not sure that there's a point to this approach when Kami of the Crescent Moon is an already-established mill deck that can also Polymorph in an Emrakul, Aeons Torn. Don't be too discouraged by this, but you simply cannot be both "competitive" in French EDH and have a flying purple hippo as your general. Accept this, and reevaluate how badly you desire to play the Griff.
Out: Vedalken Shackles and Treachery.
These cards have their ups and downs. Vedalken Shackles is so disgustingly bad against so many decks; Jenara, Maelstrom Wanderer, Marath, Ezuri, Thalia, Skullbriar, Anafenza, Iname, Thraximundrar, Geist, Griselbrand, Thassa, etc. But it's also brutally good against Vendilion Clique, Nin, Doran, and Talrand and sometimes Animar. Eh, one of those lists is longer than the other. Since my Nin matchup is already pretty bad, I knew I had to replace Shackles with something strong against control, but also that could help answer creatures. Treachery, on the other hand, performs very well when it resolves. And that's a big if in this format. Though the card is brilliant against Maesltrom Wanderer, it's quite bad against many other decks. Also it makes my mulligans that much more difficult.
In: Gitaxian Probe and Dig Through Time
Alright, I give in. My matchups against control have been disheartening as of late, especially against the counterspell-heavy Nin, so I'd like to see my opponents hand now. Also, cantrips rule, and they work well with delve. Speaking of delve, Dig Through Time is absolutely nuts. Taking out Shackles and Treachery demands that I add more creature-control. Hmm, how about draw spells that are amazing against control because they net card advantage, work at instant speed, can cost as little as two mana, and dig seven cards deep for Toxic Deluge? Yup sounds good.
I really need to play-test now with my graveyard in mind. If I can consistently reach Threshold by turn 5, I will start playing Treasure Cruise. The issue with cruise is that unlike Dig Through Time, which is a instant speed pseudo-tutor that feels fine at four mana, Treasure Cruise has to cost less than four mana to feel worth it. I refuse to play Concentrate.
Torpor Orb is a very conditional answer against certain creature and combo decks that demands that we tap out on turn 2. I have nothing against tapping out on turn 2 for a pro-active card like Bitterblossom or Dark Confidant, but T-Orb feels slow, clunky, and often irrelevant when drawn later on in the game. I prefer a wider range of 2CMC counter-magic to deal with early creature-based threats.
Yeah, in my opinion, Bitterblossom is habitually underrated by this community. It's a very real threat against many control decks and provides a lot of breathing room against Jenara as well, as it supplies an endless stream of chump blockers. VenClique literally cannot beat a resolved Bitterblossom without bouncing and then countering it.
I took a look at your decklist and I'm curious how Swan Song has worked for you. This is a card I once tested, and I was met with paradoxical results. Sometimes it stops your opponents T2 Sylvan Library or Survival of the Fittest, while other times it's a dead card that gives your opponent a chump blocker. How do you feel about it?
I would recommend that you play Drown in Sorrow. It's very strong in this meta. Also, with Jenara being a top deck again, Ulcerate has secured a spot in my 99. I've been super happy with it. I would recommend playing Ponder as well, it's basically better than Preordain if you have a fetch. Also, if Soul Manipulation is good enough, then Exclude needs to find a spot in your deck, it's very strong against a majority of decks. Also, Nihil Spellbomb seems better than Relic.
Lastly, you might wanna revamp your mana-base. It looks to have a lot of tapped lands and weak to Blood Moon.
Your approach and thoughts are much appreciated and I'm glad you're having fun and success with this deck
Totally agree on Crucible. It's strong in stax decks but it's really not that strong in many other decks. Honestly, it's meh in control decks now that Aggro decks are having a field day with the Oloro banning. Good time to unban it. Not as much on Top.
Also, I'm not sure what this forum's opinion on shameless plugs is, but there is a 1v1 Duel Commander tournament happening at Get Your Game On, in Ann Arbor, Michigan on August 23rd. Tournament starts at 12pm (Entry and prized TBD). Location info can be found here http://www.getyourgameonline.com/about/
I hope people who are near can come on out! Sorry for the advertising, just hoping to grow the community.
V-Clique vs Wydwen is a strange matchup where no one feels comfortable playing any spells. You're best route to victory is manlands. Cheap removal, counterspells, and manlands is a good recipe against a tempo deck that heavily relies on a 3/1 flier. Try to save your counterspells for the things that matter. This would include strong draw-spells, like Jace's Ingenuity or Ancestral Visions, and the gamebreaker that is Tunnel Vision (and Polymorph if they are playing it).
You are not really the beatdown in this matchup, since Clique is both faster and more tempo-based. Play conservatively but remember that it's okay for Clique to hit you a few times before Runechanter's Pike comes out. The goal is to resolve more card-advantage spells like Dark Confidant, Phyrexian Arena, and Skeletal Scrying or lock them out with Umezawa's Jitte and any creature/manland in your deck. Just don't go card-for-card with them and put yourself into counterspell-wars that you can't win. Capitalize on the black part of your deck.
Consider adding Daze and Disrupt to help with control mirrors.
Maze of Ith is now Faerie Conclave. This change is pretty straight-forward, we need lands that make mana and we struggle against planeswalkers. Besides, Maze is bad against aggro decks anyways.
Pithing Needle is now Ulcerate. Honestly Disfigure may be better, I'm just testing Ulcerate to see if 3 life is worth being able to also kill Marath. Too many mana dorks in this format now to not play it, and Faerie Conclave can shore up our weakness to planeswalkers. Losing Pithing Needle against Nin is sad, but Ulcerate can kill her too.
Power Sink is now Daze. This is a necessary change, as the format has slowly been speeding up over time, and we now need more ways to protect our turn 4 Wydwen our stop our opponent's turn 2 Stoneforge.
Impulse is now Baleful Strix. I'm happy to see my favorite bird back in the 99. It's a great card, I just couldn't justify it before Oloro was banned.
So what about Phyrexian Arena? If you play JTMS and you like it, then you should know that this JTMS costs 3 mana. Don't jam this on three you guys. Play arena on turn 5 or 6 with counter backup and win the damn game off of it. And that's all I have to say about that. Consume the Meek is a card I've tested and found underwhelming. However, I really need to get my hands on an Aetherspouts because that card looks very strong and deserves some testing. Soul Manipulation is a very cute card, especially with Baleful Strix and Snapcaster. Who else has tried this out and likes it?
To be honest, the deck has taken me a very long time to optimize. It's also quite frustratingly difficult to play at times. But out of all my criticisms of the deck, its "inability" to deal with Cavern of Souls is towards the bottom of the list. Black removal and hand disruption is very strong, and should never be taken lightly. The deck's most noticeable weakness is its inability to reliably deal with broken 2CMC enchantments, like Survival of the Fittest, Bitterblossom, Sylvan Library, etc.