I love the doubling season deck, but I run mine with 4 Utopia Sprawl and 4 Arbor Elf as my ramp. I will test with extra birds when I pick them up next... with Noble Heirarch theyd be great but thats some dollars im not keen to spend right now.
I also currently run Garruck Wildspeaker as he is often "free" and provides a body if needed. For my next iteration I will be dropping his numbers, if not entirely, tho it makes me more dependent an the vulnerable Elf..
For the planeswalker package, Tamiyo Field Researcher is great at tapping down Deaths Shadow.
I'm tempted to throw Kiora in there too, as when they're both out D.Shadow is no longer a problem.
Wincon wise, Jace, Architect of Thought plus Samut, The Tested plus Xenagos, God of Revels plus Emrakul.
I feel that 7 copies between Jace and Samut is probably ideal as, with Doubling Season out it's insta-win.
Jace finds Samut. Samut finds Jace and Xenagos. Jace finds Emrakul. Cast trigger. Haste. 30 power. Anihilator 6. Flying. That should be game.
My question is which and how many supporting PWs are needed to accomplish this. Hence Tamiyo and Kiora and nahiri.
I too have had a poor few weeks - drawing multiple combo pieces but no key card etc
As an example, I drew to start with Goryo's, Looting, Land, Tormenting, Manamorphose, Spirit guide and something else. Digging 14 cards deep over the next few turns whilst my opponent durlded to turn 5 and still nothing.
Another player at the tourney was playing the Fury of the Horde version with Emrakul and a lot of blue cards, he managed to go something like 5-1 whilst i went 1-4 and dropped. Stayed in only to try and grind out the variance.
Im sorely tempted to try blue for the Serum Visions, and Snapcaster, maybe a dispel or two. Stalling to turn 5, having the combo but knowing youve given your opponent unchallenged turns to sculpt a counter-heavy hand really makes me sad. All the splicing in the world wont help.
As for the reliability of going off, I struggle if they get me to 14 life to combo with Griselbrand, but at 20 you should hit it! I keep 3 manamorphose and upped to 3 ritual to ensure that I can combo Through the Breach off little available mana, with manamorphose to convert to black for goryo's OR and this happened, to pay for Pact
Made me smile and my opponent frown lol.
As the stats above suggest, you ave to be VERY unlucky to not hit it off 20 life. And remember you can swing for an additional 7 so yuo'll be digging at least 21 cards deep leaving you at 7 life.
Mistakes I made - overlapping my exiled cards - missed i had a Spirit guide already there so exiled another 2, laeving me with the one free source of mana and consequently, with the combo in hand/grave, couldnt cast any rituals or manamorphose to complete. Whoops.
Also managed to lose whilst being totally inattentive and drawing my library to 2 cards and Looting, with manamorphose for black... Additional text on manamorphose - draw a card. Oh, I have none left. Big whoops.
Im still pretty novice it seems, but there is a lot of variance that just takes a long whole to overcome and that crucial 3 or 4 turns to get back in the game is just too long to survive. Pretty sure Ive made all the mistakes that its possible to make so hopefully with that out of my system things will improve.
Will certainly be mulliganning more aggressively, especialy when the new rules are official. That will be a game changer for this deck!
I've noticed an increase in the number of people maining Brimaz in the traditional midrange builds, anyone know the reasoning behind this? It just seems so very win-more in the mirror. I'd much rather run Anafenza since that at least hoses Sultai. Also how many dorks are people running these days? I'm currently on 2 Mystic and a full set of Caryatids.
I run him as a 2 of because I've found myself to be horrendously weak to token based red or RW. I honestly expect to lose 80% game 1 and maybe 50% game 2.
I main board 1 End Hostilities, 2 Bile Blight and 1 Drown in Sorrow plus usual removal suite to combat them. And add in another 2 Drown from the side. And still struggle (you MUST draw a sweeper, or curve carytid brimaz rhino roc elspeth to stand a chance IMO)
Brimaz is not weak in any matchup really, sure he eats removal but all our threats will.
Anafenza sure hoses sultai, but I have yet to see 1 deck where my current built doesn't beat them anyway, whereas almost any red token prowess pushes really really hard.
Also, only seen perhaps 2 competitive sultai over the last couple months but probably 2 per NIGHT of red tokens...
I guess I could just be terrible, but most other matchups are in my favour, and luck certainly tips things too....
I've been running stain the mind since for ever and never not liked it post-board. It's often a 3cmc "remove anything I can't deal with efficiently/remove key card" so naming ascendancy or polukranos or bloody stormbreath dragon sits so nicely when we're playing in a tight game. I'll have to try DoomGiant, the 5cmc slot is currently a tough call - wingmate/tormentor/walkers. I like the idea with pharika, but do you not find that you'd rather be whipping back a big body ie. Rhino plus indefinite lifelink? I'd like to see some sample, annotated SB lists
Ok guys, took this to a GPT event and started strong, but ending up 1-1-2 in main event then 2-1 in the standard side event. Overall thoughts - extremely strong, my losses were due to land flood and lack of threats being drawn/unanswerable opponents. I'll summarise below. Its better than the results imply...
GPT R1 - Mardu... 2-1
Game 1: Lost to a Hordeling Outburstfollowed by Sarkhan and burn. I drew all the lands. like 10.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in sorrow (expecting more tokens), end hostilities, brimaz
Game 2: 3 back to back Rhinos from me with incidental lifegain smashed it. Im sure Rhinos are pack animals... See 3/4 or none.
Game 3: Ramped into Walkers and developed huge board presence he couldnt deal with.
GPT R2 - Mardu (more aggro) 1-1-1 (time)
Game 1: Got destroyed. Hordeling Outburst, Butcher of the Horde, Butcher of the Horde. Over by turn 6. Didnt get the removal I needed and butcher is big 5 power trickable flier. Scary.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in Sorrow, Revoker, Hornet Queen
Game 2: Managed to land a Whip of Erebos that comboed nicely with Rhino and the Queen Bee and went from there.
Game 3: Ran out of time, though it was in my favour. Landed a Rhino which got Chained to the Rocks and I had Abzan Charm and Downfall backup for Butcher.
GPT R3 - Jesaki Burn 0-2
Game 1: Traded tempo plays, took out an early Mantis Rider with Bile Blight. He landed Sarkhan, then Mantis Rider, then burnet me to cinders.
SIDEBOARD: Brimaz, Hornet Queen, Revoker, Stain the Mind
Game 2: I drew no threats at all. He drew 4 land and buuuuurn.
GPT R4 - Gb Devotion/Constellation 0-2
Game 1: I dealt zero damage whilst he Blossomed into monsters. I think this is one of the hardest game 1's we have as we cannot overrun them.
SIDEBOARD: Boardwipes, additional Elspeth, 2x Drown in Sorrow, Hornet Queen
Game 2: THoughtsiezed early, saw from that (and courser) he had 2x Arbor Colossus, Genesis Hydra, Nykthos, Nylea, Polukranos and land. Was not going to be a fun day. I couldnt land any blockers to compare and again got overrun before any wipes or elspeth turned up.
Played for fun after this with no sideboard, and absouelty demolised it. Luck is a harsh mistress.
So, I dropped to play the side event:
STD R1 - Jeskai Control/Tempo 2-1
Game 1: Anihilated by Mantis Rider, Keranos and Prognostix Sphinx.
SIDEBOARD: Phyrexian Revoker, Stain the Mind, Deicide
Game 2: Landed an early Phrexian Revoker naming Prognostic Sphinx. One threat removed. Stain the Mind naming Mantis Rider. 2 threats removed. Whilst searching through his Library, i saw him sporting little burn, but packing a couple of Stormbreath Dragon!
He couldnt match my curve without threats.
Game 3: Similar to above- Stained the Sphinx, Deicide'd Keranos, killed 2 mantis riders (stain showed me he only packed 3 total) and I had an Abzan Charm in hand, followed by Elpeth and Bile Blight. I had stabilised on 1 life.
Satisfaction.
STD R2 - Abzan Aggro 2-0
Game 1: saw him playing Anafenza, Brimaz and Herald of Torment, potential to get nasty, but I played the control game. He did manage to land 2 Monstrous Fleecemanes but I had Elspeth on board to chump.
SIDEBOARD: sweepers, brimaz, Queen.
Game 2: THis was a real attrition Battle! He managed to reduce my Life total to 1!! He managed to gain life to a high of 43!! Then I landed Whip of Erebos, brought back my Rhinos, and My Hornet Queen, and my Indulgent Tormentors. Killed him with my total at 36 life remaining. Really fun match.
STD R3 - Temur tempo? 0-2
Game 1: Simple. He rode Stormbreath to victory. Managed to get him to 5, but no finishing Rhino, Temur Charm can counter spells. Remember that!
SIDEBOARD: didnt really know what to do here... Stain teh Mind and Revoker (monstrous stormy is scary)
Game 2: He had some really excellent trick little SB for me. Setassan Tactics and Temur Charm on Hornet Nest. H eplayed 2 of each this match and created an army of flying deathtouch wasps. Couldnt breath through. Again rode Stormbreath for the win behind his wall of insects.
Thoughts
- Anafenza was sided out nearly all the time. 4/4for 3cmc is nice, but rather specific second ability makes me want to drop her until reanimate/dredge is a thing again. Would consider Herald of Torment or Brimaz in her 3cmc slot. Not sure which.
- Thoughtsieze was good as a 2 of. Might up to 3 but definitely not 4 for me.
- Indulgent Tormentor was actually really good. He ate removal, of course, but they simply cannot leave him. He'll stop Stormbreath and Butcher, (not mantis rider until you buff him) is a decent scary flying threat and if youre on the Walkers route I'd recommend him as the inexorable card advantage helps, OR he reduces their threats OR brings them within Rhino range, OR forces their removal. Win-win-win-win in my book
- Ajani was pretty useful, but as mentioned above, he did whiff a couple of times. But that just meant I dug through my land floods. Paired with the additional Elspeth he was pretty good. His +1/+1 was revelant to take my creatures out of burn range and to tip the flying/trample damage to lethal...
OK just back from a Tuesday Night Magic, only 3 rounds but every little helps. Slight change up for this, a re-imagined sideboard and dropped Fleecemane Lion. Really didnt miss him, though I thought I would!
So onto the details.
Overall Win 2, Loss 1 (against 1st placer)
Match 1: Rabble Red splash W 2-0
I know this players deck, runs lots of pump, lots of token generation, generally a real pain in the ass. I wanted game 1 over asap so I could sideboard.
Game 1 - He draws 2 land whilst i lay on the rhinos and go to town. He was pumping my creatures just for the scry!
Sideboard: 3 drown in sorrow, End hostilities, Bow of nylea (lifegain!!)
Game 2 - I keep an opening hand of 5 land (some scry) a courser and downfall. Scry away 2 land. Courser into more land. I had 12 damn lands. Drew a few removal at opportune times, Drown after Rabblemaster and the [makes 3 goblins] was happy time. Drew another courser. Stalled.
Fortunately he aslo was drawing lots of pump and very few threats. I landed Sorin, created a Vampire, a Whip and Big Ajani. Was over after that.
Not a good showing for Either of us, but I felt it was a fair matchup after the SB. In future would consider Doomwake Giant
Match 2: Jeskai Tempo 2-0
A good player testing a tempo-ish brew. Feared Mantis Riders and Ascendancy after seeing the colours.
Game 1 - See very little if any creatures. Heaps of burn. Just keep dropping threats and eventually the lifegain gets out of hand and just grind past the tempo plays. Still wasnt sure what I was playing against
Sideboard: 2 Stain the Mind (thinking MAntis or AScendancy or Dig Through Time), 2 thoughtseize, 1 Bow of Nylea, Hornet Queen and Elspeth if the game goes long.
Game 2 - More interactive this time, follow standard play, kind of tempo'd the tempo player. Repeat Rhinos with Whip won the day. Took no damage, he was on defence the whole time. Felt very solid indeed.
Match 3: UG Nykthos plus Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - 0-2 (this guy took 1st place)
Played this matchup a few timeslast standard and always found the sheer volume of cards hard to deal with.
Game 1 - Very grindy, removing his threats but not dropping may of my own. Roc couldnt help much even with raid. Prophet of Kruphix with Nykthos, Courser and Kiora's follower on the table - I removed one Prophet and exiled Nylea with Utter End, feeling good. Then he Bard'ed for 4, untapped with Follower, barded for 5 (all on my turn) to pull Polukranos and another Prophet Then his turn montstroused Polly for 13 power, swung and won.
Sideboard: Drown in Sorrow, End Hostilities, Elspeth, Stain the Mind, Thoughtseize, Deicide, bow and Hornet queen.
Game 2 - I landed Caryatid, then Courser, then Stain the Mind on Prophet. Felt pretty good about that. Unfortunatley failed to capitalise on this. Got stuck on 5 mana with an Elspeth in hand watching his board state build with dismay as no lands appeared. He just followed the standard ramp plan. landed another Polukranos. I tried to remove it, he countered with Stubborn Denial. Then proceeds to Yissan for 6 and 7 picking Hydra Broodmaster and Hornet Queen. Followed by Polly removing my board again.
I had 3 dork-sweepers, 3 beasty-sweepers and saw none of them. Stain the Mind made a huge difference. THe Deicide I was holding for Nylea was not needed, sadly, and there were no other decent targets at the Time.
THOUGHTS
- Fleecemane Lion was unnecessary.
- stain the mind would be useful in nearly all matchups, especially with convoke. I'll happily trade a turn to remove their pivotal cards.
- Flying is a big deal
- Roc felt underwhelming, might try out Indulgent Tormentor in place of Roc/Tormentor/Mystic
- Mystic was entirely Irrelevant in tonights games.
This was a surprise event for me - was expecting a 4 round FNM but due to various reasons it was a semi Game Day type thing. 5 rounds, good prizes.
Now, my Local Game Store tends to run... interesting... choices - After reading here and the PT results I took the following (Not fully optimised yet) list, expecting many midrange, a smattering of control and aggro and rare combo:
As you can tell, I'm missing a few things, such as the rest of my Charms which I do feel made a difference. No match felt un-winnable, though this being my first Standard this block and missing a couple of cards, plus me not wanting to stick to the strict lists you have above....
Round 1 - Ascendancy Combo. 1-1 Draw
Bugger.
Game 1: First turns were him playing dorks, me removing them. Me playing caryatid and rhinos. Got him to 6! He plays Ascendancy, Im holding Utter End. He passes turn, I play Utter End. His next turn, another Ascendancy and comboed out with Astral Cornucopia and Kiora's Follower, Retraction Helix.
Sideboard: Deicide (enchantment hate), Phyrexian Revoker for whatever dork he plays, Anafenza to stop Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise.
Game 2: Revoker in hand. Few turns of lands, Im waiting for the dork. He plays Caryatid. I play my Revoker. He had/drew into 2 more caryatids, allowing me time to Utter End the Ascendancy and ride fleecemane to the win.
Game 3: No time.
Round 2 - WG Thing. 2-0 Victory
newish player. Not really a struggle. First Game I didnt go below 22 life. Second game never fell below 19...
At this point I was feeling pretty good with the deck. Had answers to everything, powerhouse cards.
Round 3 - UB Control. 0-1 Loss
Good player.
Game 1: My strategy was to play must answer threats. He removed all, but let an Ajani Steadfast go ultimate. THe rate he was going through his deck, with only Progniostic Sphinx as a wincon, I thought I might actually win by him decking himself with the Delve and Jace's Ingenuity. Sadly I couldnt land any other beater than a single Monstrous Fleecemane attacking into his 2 Sphinxes. Eventually he took me down.
Sideboard: Theory - if Prognostic Sphinx was the only wincon, and he had only marginal card advantage, I'll sideboard in all removal for the Sphinx to force him to discard his hand, we'll get into topdeck mode and I'll land a Mistcutter and win through. Also Hornet Queen to stop the sphinxes in their tracks
Game 2: The theory nearly worked, however I only saw removal, and he found 3 each of thoughtsieze and despise. Game dragged out and went to time.
Round 4 - RW Heroic 1-1 Draw
Kids 2nd competitive night. Playing big brothers RW heroic. Didnt feel worried going into this...
Game 1: Fated Hero, Akroan crusader, the usual. I let him get to critical mass unwittingly, landed a Whip of Erebos plus Siege Rhino. Felt safe. Wrong.
He played a couple of enchants, an instant or 2 and I was taking 14 damage from out the blue! Lesson Learned!!
Sideboard: I think I put in Elspeth for the tokens as blockers and the 2 removal.
Game 2: Drown in sorrow on an over committed board. He quickly built back up again, But Ajani Mentor digging me Sorin really helped. He was determined to bring me to zero and let the planweswalkers live - Sorin's -2 vampire with 3x +1/+1 counters to block one of his 2 attackers, followed by Sorin +1 and Ajani counters left me with an 8/8 Flying Lifelink, then Dropped a Roc with Raid. Good game.
Game 3: Went to time. Would have been mine easily, but 5 turns was called on my turn 2. Not enough time to get him.
Round 5: 0-2 Mono B "agro" 0-2 loss
This was the kids brother. Not worried about the deck, but concerned about disruption.
Game 1: Mogis Marauder and Skullhunter. Managed to remove some creatures with exile, block a few, but the disruption really put me off my stride. Only damage he took was his own thoughtsieze.
Sideboard: 2 extra removal. Not much else that I can remember.
Game 2: Epic opening hand - 2 land (one scry), fleecemane, Courser, Anafenza, Rhino, Ajani Mentor and Drown in Sorrow. Thought Id have it in the bag. Drew into Sorin. He takes my Courser with Despise. I draw only B/G land with a hand ful of single White requirement. I passed 4 or 5 consecutive turns with no plays. Loss.
KEY LEARNINGS
- Ascendancy is a thing to be feared. My neighbour playing it won both his games on turn 4 without a problem. My opponent comboing off despite my repeated diruption. So will try Erase and consider Back to Nature as this would hit opposing bestow and annoying enchantments with efficiency.
- Similar to above, but wrecks games out the blue - Stain the mind. Definitely a game changer when you know the wincons.
- Swarms of tokens suuuuck. I can deal with several creatures, but not 7 or so. Boardwipes area must. Extra Drown in Sorrow and End Hostilities
- Courser or 2 with Fetchland is awesome recovery.
- Whip can be a saviour
- Fleecemane Lion is great in the MB for game 1 - hes a wall against aggro, a must-deal-before-monstrous against control. Can be loaded up with counters against midrange, but not ideal in that matchup. Would side out for sure.
-Flying will make things much more threatening. Want to test Indulgent Tormentor alongside the Roc. Whats not to love? 5/3 flyer in most matchups hurts them. If we need to sit back, we're draining their life OR netting cards. Exactly what I want if we're both sat building board state.
Games felt really good, not sure entirely how to do better. FYI it was a MOno Red that won the tournement. Didnt see what it involved sadly....
I have been following the thread, and would like to ask those that have been testing if the following scenario is likely...:
T1: land, despise.
T2: land; land, sylvan carytid
T3: 2x Land, carytid; land, Siege Rhino (23 - 17)
T4: 3x Land, carytid, rhino; land, [attack], Wingmate Roc (or maybe Courser of Kruphix plus fleecemane lion) (23 - 13)
T5: 4x Land, carytid, rhino, roc + token; abzan ascendancy, abzan falconer, [attack] (26 - 0)
Obviously, adding sorin, solemn visitor or swapping a few creatures around may work better but this would be my gameplan - opponent dead on T5 with flying trampling rhinos.
With the Roc and Rhino I feel running one Whip of Erebos would be awesome. Psuedo Sorin plus money-back on the rhino and roc....
I'm tied between going creature heavy (as above) or Walker heavy - they are a pain in the ass to kill and the +1 for each (elspeth, sorin, ajani, lilly) are all so good I just cant decide. Has anyone tried a walker heavy control variant yet?
I actually run 4 Fleecemane - against control he is a beast - if they dont manage verdict turn 4, he aint goin ANYwhere. Also great against mono green to block away until they land Nylea.
I do run a suite of Carytids along with whip of erebos in the main, and also a singleton Ajani, Caller of the Pride for the insta-win flying double strike obzedat.
It was disgusting. he ran them as a deuce, but with a courser on the field, thats 4 life a turn (ish), advent = 3 +1/+1 counters on another creature, PLUS your 5/5 trample. Any creature you cast gets a bonus Beast. And they are ALL gaining you life via Trostani.
I feel that a singleton is good in the main, but will be testing more when im back from work. after turn 6 (or 5 if we're lucky) the game becomes just so hard for opponents.
Ive always wanted to run Eidolon of Blossoms and Skybind together and think that reanimator would be the way to fully abuse it. Flicking back Angel of Serenity or Sylvan Primordial when you play a Courser or something would negate poor topdecks and provide fuel for lotleth and the graveyard....
Im new to Dredge, but just wondered why if youre in BG, why not add a splash White to get some cool Whip effects? Such as Obzedat, Ghost Council when you whip him from the graveyard he doesnt exile from the whip, just his own trigger and then comes in again next turn etc. Or some real fatties that have ETB effects like Armada Wurmwhere you'll keep the 5/5 trample token after whip exiles?
Im just thinking to get max value. Maybe this should be more Reanimator related, if so, sorry
Hey all. My buddy is playing at GP Melbourne and has just gone 7-0 with a "mono-black-secret tech splash green"
I have never beaten it in its current form as uwr control where mono black folds to me.
He runs abrupt decay to take out d-sphere and golgari charm to hit other enchamts.
Mutavault for the win, normally.
We have a couple of good Jund players also, but they went 4-3 at the GP day 1.
Just thought I'd post here as its a bit rock-like, and should appear on daily MTG with the results...
I have run Illinests list on Cockatrice with good success, sideboarding primeval bounty, some removal, anti-blue flash and hunters prowess. I also mainboarded God's Willing for the extra push and protection.
Two issues I'm coming across
1) not drawing hexproofers early and having spot removal stall me out
2) blood baron and StormBreath Dragon. Pro White + Black with lifelink.
Erebos sadly didnt show his face, so it was grindy until a packrat spam attack.
The new Jund lists pack the Dragon which hurts big time, and Esper (whats left) and midrange Orzov and orsoz control and Dega all pack the Baron.
Its fair to assume these are threats we need to deal with that arent hit by the charms.
Any other options to help here? Not much in the way of green removal...
I love the doubling season deck, but I run mine with 4 Utopia Sprawl and 4 Arbor Elf as my ramp. I will test with extra birds when I pick them up next... with Noble Heirarch theyd be great but thats some dollars im not keen to spend right now.
I also currently run Garruck Wildspeaker as he is often "free" and provides a body if needed. For my next iteration I will be dropping his numbers, if not entirely, tho it makes me more dependent an the vulnerable Elf..
For the planeswalker package, Tamiyo Field Researcher is great at tapping down Deaths Shadow.
I'm tempted to throw Kiora in there too, as when they're both out D.Shadow is no longer a problem.
Wincon wise, Jace, Architect of Thought plus Samut, The Tested plus Xenagos, God of Revels plus Emrakul.
I feel that 7 copies between Jace and Samut is probably ideal as, with Doubling Season out it's insta-win.
Jace finds Samut. Samut finds Jace and Xenagos. Jace finds Emrakul. Cast trigger. Haste. 30 power. Anihilator 6. Flying. That should be game.
My question is which and how many supporting PWs are needed to accomplish this. Hence Tamiyo and Kiora and nahiri.
I assume 0 for Amulet Bloom for the Hivemind/Pact combo, but if you set it on 1 you knock out your draw spells and if on 2 your combo enablers.
Please forgive my ignorance... I guess if youre boarding in Chalice for a set number then you board out some of the corresponding ccm?
Cheers
A
As an example, I drew to start with Goryo's, Looting, Land, Tormenting, Manamorphose, Spirit guide and something else. Digging 14 cards deep over the next few turns whilst my opponent durlded to turn 5 and still nothing.
Another player at the tourney was playing the Fury of the Horde version with Emrakul and a lot of blue cards, he managed to go something like 5-1 whilst i went 1-4 and dropped. Stayed in only to try and grind out the variance.
Im sorely tempted to try blue for the Serum Visions, and Snapcaster, maybe a dispel or two. Stalling to turn 5, having the combo but knowing youve given your opponent unchallenged turns to sculpt a counter-heavy hand really makes me sad. All the splicing in the world wont help.
As for the reliability of going off, I struggle if they get me to 14 life to combo with Griselbrand, but at 20 you should hit it! I keep 3 manamorphose and upped to 3 ritual to ensure that I can combo Through the Breach off little available mana, with manamorphose to convert to black for goryo's OR and this happened, to pay for Pact
Made me smile and my opponent frown lol.
As the stats above suggest, you ave to be VERY unlucky to not hit it off 20 life. And remember you can swing for an additional 7 so yuo'll be digging at least 21 cards deep leaving you at 7 life.
Mistakes I made - overlapping my exiled cards - missed i had a Spirit guide already there so exiled another 2, laeving me with the one free source of mana and consequently, with the combo in hand/grave, couldnt cast any rituals or manamorphose to complete. Whoops.
Also managed to lose whilst being totally inattentive and drawing my library to 2 cards and Looting, with manamorphose for black... Additional text on manamorphose - draw a card. Oh, I have none left. Big whoops.
Im still pretty novice it seems, but there is a lot of variance that just takes a long whole to overcome and that crucial 3 or 4 turns to get back in the game is just too long to survive. Pretty sure Ive made all the mistakes that its possible to make so hopefully with that out of my system things will improve.
Will certainly be mulliganning more aggressively, especialy when the new rules are official. That will be a game changer for this deck!
I run him as a 2 of because I've found myself to be horrendously weak to token based red or RW. I honestly expect to lose 80% game 1 and maybe 50% game 2.
I main board 1 End Hostilities, 2 Bile Blight and 1 Drown in Sorrow plus usual removal suite to combat them. And add in another 2 Drown from the side. And still struggle (you MUST draw a sweeper, or curve carytid brimaz rhino roc elspeth to stand a chance IMO)
Brimaz is not weak in any matchup really, sure he eats removal but all our threats will.
Anafenza sure hoses sultai, but I have yet to see 1 deck where my current built doesn't beat them anyway, whereas almost any red token prowess pushes really really hard.
Also, only seen perhaps 2 competitive sultai over the last couple months but probably 2 per NIGHT of red tokens...
I guess I could just be terrible, but most other matchups are in my favour, and luck certainly tips things too....
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Siege Rhino
2 Indulgent Tormentor
2 Wingmate Roc
Spells (19)
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero’s Downfall
4 Abzan Charm
2 Utter End
1 Whip of Erebos
2 Ajani, Mentor of Heroes
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
2 Forest
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
3 Sandsteppe Citadel
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Temple of Malady
2 Llanowar Wastes
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Silence
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Drown in Sorrow
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stain the Mind
2 Deicide
1 End Hostilities
1 Duneblast
1 Silence the Believers
1 Elspeth, Sun’s Champion
1 Hornet Queen
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Ok guys, took this to a GPT event and started strong, but ending up 1-1-2 in main event then 2-1 in the standard side event. Overall thoughts - extremely strong, my losses were due to land flood and lack of threats being drawn/unanswerable opponents. I'll summarise below. Its better than the results imply...
GPT R1 - Mardu... 2-1
Game 1: Lost to a Hordeling Outburstfollowed by Sarkhan and burn. I drew all the lands. like 10.
SIDEBOARD: Drown in sorrow (expecting more tokens), end hostilities, brimaz
Game 2: 3 back to back Rhinos from me with incidental lifegain smashed it. Im sure Rhinos are pack animals... See 3/4 or none.
Game 3: Ramped into Walkers and developed huge board presence he couldnt deal with.
GPT R2 - Mardu (more aggro) 1-1-1 (time)
Game 1: Got destroyed. Hordeling Outburst, Butcher of the Horde, Butcher of the Horde. Over by turn 6. Didnt get the removal I needed and butcher is big
SIDEBOARD: Drown in Sorrow, Revoker, Hornet Queen
Game 2: Managed to land a Whip of Erebos that comboed nicely with Rhino and the Queen Bee and went from there.
Game 3: Ran out of time, though it was in my favour. Landed a Rhino which got Chained to the Rocks and I had Abzan Charm and Downfall backup for Butcher.
GPT R3 - Jesaki Burn 0-2
Game 1: Traded tempo plays, took out an early Mantis Rider with Bile Blight. He landed Sarkhan, then Mantis Rider, then burnet me to cinders.
SIDEBOARD: Brimaz, Hornet Queen, Revoker, Stain the Mind
Game 2: I drew no threats at all. He drew 4 land and buuuuurn.
GPT R4 - Gb Devotion/Constellation 0-2
Game 1: I dealt zero damage whilst he Blossomed into monsters. I think this is one of the hardest game 1's we have as we cannot overrun them.
SIDEBOARD: Boardwipes, additional Elspeth, 2x Drown in Sorrow, Hornet Queen
Game 2: THoughtsiezed early, saw from that (and courser) he had 2x Arbor Colossus, Genesis Hydra, Nykthos, Nylea, Polukranos and land. Was not going to be a fun day. I couldnt land any blockers to compare and again got overrun before any wipes or elspeth turned up.
Played for fun after this with no sideboard, and absouelty demolised it. Luck is a harsh mistress.
So, I dropped to play the side event:
STD R1 - Jeskai Control/Tempo 2-1
Game 1: Anihilated by Mantis Rider, Keranos and Prognostix Sphinx.
SIDEBOARD: Phyrexian Revoker, Stain the Mind, Deicide
Game 2: Landed an early Phrexian Revoker naming Prognostic Sphinx. One threat removed. Stain the Mind naming Mantis Rider. 2 threats removed. Whilst searching through his Library, i saw him sporting little burn, but packing a couple of Stormbreath Dragon!
He couldnt match my curve without threats.
Game 3: Similar to above- Stained the Sphinx, Deicide'd Keranos, killed 2 mantis riders (stain showed me he only packed 3 total) and I had an Abzan Charm in hand, followed by Elpeth and Bile Blight. I had stabilised on 1 life.
Satisfaction.
STD R2 - Abzan Aggro 2-0
Game 1: saw him playing Anafenza, Brimaz and Herald of Torment, potential to get nasty, but I played the control game. He did manage to land 2 Monstrous Fleecemanes but I had Elspeth on board to chump.
SIDEBOARD: sweepers, brimaz, Queen.
Game 2: THis was a real attrition Battle! He managed to reduce my Life total to 1!! He managed to gain life to a high of 43!! Then I landed Whip of Erebos, brought back my Rhinos, and My Hornet Queen, and my Indulgent Tormentors. Killed him with my total at 36 life remaining. Really fun match.
STD R3 - Temur tempo? 0-2
Game 1: Simple. He rode Stormbreath to victory. Managed to get him to 5, but no finishing Rhino, Temur Charm can counter spells. Remember that!
SIDEBOARD: didnt really know what to do here... Stain teh Mind and Revoker (monstrous stormy is scary)
Game 2: He had some really excellent trick little SB for me. Setassan Tactics and Temur Charm on Hornet Nest. H eplayed 2 of each this match and created an army of flying deathtouch wasps. Couldnt breath through. Again rode Stormbreath for the win behind his wall of insects.
Thoughts
- Anafenza was sided out nearly all the time. 4/4for 3cmc is nice, but rather specific second ability makes me want to drop her until reanimate/dredge is a thing again. Would consider Herald of Torment or Brimaz in her 3cmc slot. Not sure which.
- Thoughtsieze was good as a 2 of. Might up to 3 but definitely not 4 for me.
- Indulgent Tormentor was actually really good. He ate removal, of course, but they simply cannot leave him. He'll stop Stormbreath and Butcher, (not mantis rider until you buff him) is a decent scary flying threat and if youre on the Walkers route I'd recommend him as the inexorable card advantage helps, OR he reduces their threats OR brings them within Rhino range, OR forces their removal. Win-win-win-win in my book
- Ajani was pretty useful, but as mentioned above, he did whiff a couple of times. But that just meant I dug through my land floods. Paired with the additional Elspeth he was pretty good. His +1/+1 was revelant to take my creatures out of burn range and to tip the flying/trample damage to lethal...
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Siege Rhino
2 Herald of Torment (thanks to this thread)
2 Elvish Mystic
2 Wingmate Roc
2 Anafenza, the Foremost
Removal (10)
2 Abzan Charm
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Utter End
1 Bile Blight
1 Silence the Believers
1 Eslpeth, Sun's Champion
2 Ajani, Mentor of Hero's
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Ajani Steadfast
1 Whip of Erebos
3 Drown in Sorrow (moved from MD)[red weenies, token heavy, mana dorks]
2 Thoughtseize [control, combo, low-wincon-count]
2 Stain the Mind [control, cards-i-cant-deal-with]
2 Deicide [Ascendancy, Gods, coursers]
1 Bow of Nylea [flyers, millers, mirror]
1 Silence the Believers [midrange]
1 Back to Nature [constellation, ascendancy, coursers, heroic/auras]
1 End Hostilities [mirror, rampy-stampy]
1 Hornet Queen [mirror, RG monsters, fliers]
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion [extra sweeper, longer games]
So onto the details.
Overall Win 2, Loss 1 (against 1st placer)
Match 1: Rabble Red splash W 2-0
I know this players deck, runs lots of pump, lots of token generation, generally a real pain in the ass. I wanted game 1 over asap so I could sideboard.
Game 1 - He draws 2 land whilst i lay on the rhinos and go to town. He was pumping my creatures just for the scry!
Sideboard: 3 drown in sorrow, End hostilities, Bow of nylea (lifegain!!)
Game 2 - I keep an opening hand of 5 land (some scry) a courser and downfall. Scry away 2 land. Courser into more land. I had 12 damn lands. Drew a few removal at opportune times, Drown after Rabblemaster and the [makes 3 goblins] was happy time. Drew another courser. Stalled.
Fortunately he aslo was drawing lots of pump and very few threats. I landed Sorin, created a Vampire, a Whip and Big Ajani. Was over after that.
Not a good showing for Either of us, but I felt it was a fair matchup after the SB. In future would consider Doomwake Giant
Match 2: Jeskai Tempo 2-0
A good player testing a tempo-ish brew. Feared Mantis Riders and Ascendancy after seeing the colours.
Game 1 - See very little if any creatures. Heaps of burn. Just keep dropping threats and eventually the lifegain gets out of hand and just grind past the tempo plays. Still wasnt sure what I was playing against
Sideboard: 2 Stain the Mind (thinking MAntis or AScendancy or Dig Through Time), 2 thoughtseize, 1 Bow of Nylea, Hornet Queen and Elspeth if the game goes long.
Game 2 - More interactive this time, follow standard play, kind of tempo'd the tempo player. Repeat Rhinos with Whip won the day. Took no damage, he was on defence the whole time. Felt very solid indeed.
Match 3: UG Nykthos plus Yisan, the Wanderer Bard - 0-2 (this guy took 1st place)
Played this matchup a few timeslast standard and always found the sheer volume of cards hard to deal with.
Game 1 - Very grindy, removing his threats but not dropping may of my own. Roc couldnt help much even with raid. Prophet of Kruphix with Nykthos, Courser and Kiora's follower on the table - I removed one Prophet and exiled Nylea with Utter End, feeling good. Then he Bard'ed for 4, untapped with Follower, barded for 5 (all on my turn) to pull Polukranos and another Prophet
Sideboard: Drown in Sorrow, End Hostilities, Elspeth, Stain the Mind, Thoughtseize, Deicide, bow and Hornet queen.
Game 2 - I landed Caryatid, then Courser, then Stain the Mind on Prophet. Felt pretty good about that. Unfortunatley failed to capitalise on this. Got stuck on 5 mana with an Elspeth in hand watching his board state build with dismay as no lands appeared. He just followed the standard ramp plan. landed another Polukranos. I tried to remove it, he countered with Stubborn Denial. Then proceeds to Yissan for 6 and 7 picking Hydra Broodmaster and Hornet Queen. Followed by Polly removing my board again.
I had 3 dork-sweepers, 3 beasty-sweepers and saw none of them. Stain the Mind made a huge difference. THe Deicide I was holding for Nylea was not needed, sadly, and there were no other decent targets at the Time.
THOUGHTS
- Fleecemane Lion was unnecessary.
- stain the mind would be useful in nearly all matchups, especially with convoke. I'll happily trade a turn to remove their pivotal cards.
- Flying is a big deal
- Roc felt underwhelming, might try out Indulgent Tormentor in place of Roc/Tormentor/Mystic
- Mystic was entirely Irrelevant in tonights games.
This was a surprise event for me - was expecting a 4 round FNM but due to various reasons it was a semi Game Day type thing. 5 rounds, good prizes.
Now, my Local Game Store tends to run... interesting... choices - After reading here and the PT results I took the following (Not fully optimised yet) list, expecting many midrange, a smattering of control and aggro and rare combo:
2 Ajani, Mentor of Hero's
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Ajani Steadfast [second Sorin]
Creatures
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Siege Rhino
2 Wingmate Roc
1 Anafenza,the Foremost
Spells
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Utter End
1 Bile Blight
1 Silence the Believers
1 Abzan Charm
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Bow of Nylea
4 Windswept Heath
3 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
2 Mana Confluence
3 Sandsteppe Citadel
2 Cave of Koilos
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Blossoming Sands
1 Scoured Barrens
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Plains
2 Forest
2 Mistcutter Hydra (control, blue decks)
2 Phyrexian Revoker (combo, miscellaneous)
2 Elspeth, Sun's Champion (big green, mirror, long games)
2 Deicide (Keranos, Nylea, Ascendancy)
1 Hornet Queen (mirror, flyers, dragons)
1 Arbor Colossus (flyers)
1 Anafenza, the Foremost (delve, reanimator, if I wanna go more aggro)
1 Devouring Light (should be something else, but where im stalled and blocking, cheap removal)
2 Thoughtsieze (well...)
1 Silence the Believers (midrange, auras)
As you can tell, I'm missing a few things, such as the rest of my Charms which I do feel made a difference. No match felt un-winnable, though this being my first Standard this block and missing a couple of cards, plus me not wanting to stick to the strict lists you have above....
Round 1 - Ascendancy Combo. 1-1 Draw
Bugger.
Game 1: First turns were him playing dorks, me removing them. Me playing caryatid and rhinos. Got him to 6! He plays Ascendancy, Im holding Utter End. He passes turn, I play Utter End. His next turn, another Ascendancy and comboed out with Astral Cornucopia and Kiora's Follower, Retraction Helix.
Sideboard: Deicide (enchantment hate), Phyrexian Revoker for whatever dork he plays, Anafenza to stop Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise.
Game 2: Revoker in hand. Few turns of lands, Im waiting for the dork. He plays Caryatid. I play my Revoker. He had/drew into 2 more caryatids, allowing me time to Utter End the Ascendancy and ride fleecemane to the win.
Game 3: No time.
Round 2 - WG Thing. 2-0 Victory
newish player. Not really a struggle. First Game I didnt go below 22 life. Second game never fell below 19...
At this point I was feeling pretty good with the deck. Had answers to everything, powerhouse cards.
Round 3 - UB Control. 0-1 Loss
Good player.
Game 1: My strategy was to play must answer threats. He removed all, but let an Ajani Steadfast go ultimate. THe rate he was going through his deck, with only Progniostic Sphinx as a wincon, I thought I might actually win by him decking himself with the Delve and Jace's Ingenuity. Sadly I couldnt land any other beater than a single Monstrous Fleecemane attacking into his 2 Sphinxes. Eventually he took me down.
Sideboard: Theory - if Prognostic Sphinx was the only wincon, and he had only marginal card advantage, I'll sideboard in all removal for the Sphinx to force him to discard his hand, we'll get into topdeck mode and I'll land a Mistcutter and win through. Also Hornet Queen to stop the sphinxes in their tracks
Game 2: The theory nearly worked, however I only saw removal, and he found 3 each of thoughtsieze and despise. Game dragged out and went to time.
Round 4 - RW Heroic 1-1 Draw
Kids 2nd competitive night. Playing big brothers RW heroic. Didnt feel worried going into this...
Game 1: Fated Hero, Akroan crusader, the usual. I let him get to critical mass unwittingly, landed a Whip of Erebos plus Siege Rhino. Felt safe. Wrong.
He played a couple of enchants, an instant or 2 and I was taking 14 damage from out the blue! Lesson Learned!!
Sideboard: I think I put in Elspeth for the tokens as blockers and the 2 removal.
Game 2: Drown in sorrow on an over committed board. He quickly built back up again, But Ajani Mentor digging me Sorin really helped. He was determined to bring me to zero and let the planweswalkers live - Sorin's -2 vampire with 3x +1/+1 counters to block one of his 2 attackers, followed by Sorin +1 and Ajani counters left me with an 8/8 Flying Lifelink, then Dropped a Roc with Raid. Good game.
Game 3: Went to time. Would have been mine easily, but 5 turns was called on my turn 2. Not enough time to get him.
Round 5: 0-2 Mono B "agro" 0-2 loss
This was the kids brother. Not worried about the deck, but concerned about disruption.
Game 1: Mogis Marauder and Skullhunter. Managed to remove some creatures with exile, block a few, but the disruption really put me off my stride. Only damage he took was his own thoughtsieze.
Sideboard: 2 extra removal. Not much else that I can remember.
Game 2: Epic opening hand - 2 land (one scry), fleecemane, Courser, Anafenza, Rhino, Ajani Mentor and Drown in Sorrow. Thought Id have it in the bag. Drew into Sorin. He takes my Courser with Despise. I draw only B/G land with a hand ful of single White requirement. I passed 4 or 5 consecutive turns with no plays. Loss.
KEY LEARNINGS
- Ascendancy is a thing to be feared. My neighbour playing it won both his games on turn 4 without a problem. My opponent comboing off despite my repeated diruption. So will try Erase and consider Back to Nature as this would hit opposing bestow and annoying enchantments with efficiency.
- Similar to above, but wrecks games out the blue - Stain the mind. Definitely a game changer when you know the wincons.
- Swarms of tokens suuuuck. I can deal with several creatures, but not 7 or so. Boardwipes area must. Extra Drown in Sorrow and End Hostilities
- Courser or 2 with Fetchland is awesome recovery.
- Whip can be a saviour
- Fleecemane Lion is great in the MB for game 1 - hes a wall against aggro, a must-deal-before-monstrous against control. Can be loaded up with counters against midrange, but not ideal in that matchup. Would side out for sure.
-Flying will make things much more threatening. Want to test Indulgent Tormentor alongside the Roc. Whats not to love? 5/3 flyer in most matchups hurts them. If we need to sit back, we're draining their life OR netting cards. Exactly what I want if we're both sat building board state.
Games felt really good, not sure entirely how to do better. FYI it was a MOno Red that won the tournement. Didnt see what it involved sadly....
I have been following the thread, and would like to ask those that have been testing if the following scenario is likely...:
T1: land, despise.
T2: land; land, sylvan carytid
T3: 2x Land, carytid; land, Siege Rhino (23 - 17)
T4: 3x Land, carytid, rhino; land, [attack], Wingmate Roc (or maybe Courser of Kruphix plus fleecemane lion) (23 - 13)
T5: 4x Land, carytid, rhino, roc + token; abzan ascendancy, abzan falconer, [attack] (26 - 0)
Obviously, adding sorin, solemn visitor or swapping a few creatures around may work better but this would be my gameplan - opponent dead on T5 with flying trampling rhinos.
With the Roc and Rhino I feel running one Whip of Erebos would be awesome. Psuedo Sorin plus money-back on the rhino and roc....
I'm tied between going creature heavy (as above) or Walker heavy - they are a pain in the ass to kill and the +1 for each (elspeth, sorin, ajani, lilly) are all so good I just cant decide. Has anyone tried a walker heavy control variant yet?
Cheers
I do run a suite of Carytids along with whip of erebos in the main, and also a singleton Ajani, Caller of the Pride for the insta-win flying double strike obzedat.
One other card that i played against in a full on GW midrange (Voice of resurgence,Trostani, selesnya's voice Advent of wurm, elspeth etc) was Primeval Bounty
It was disgusting. he ran them as a deuce, but with a courser on the field, thats 4 life a turn (ish), advent = 3 +1/+1 counters on another creature, PLUS your 5/5 trample. Any creature you cast gets a bonus Beast. And they are ALL gaining you life via Trostani.
I feel that a singleton is good in the main, but will be testing more when im back from work. after turn 6 (or 5 if we're lucky) the game becomes just so hard for opponents.
Hope you have a try before rotation!
Anyone think it has a place?
Cheers
Im new to Dredge, but just wondered why if youre in BG, why not add a splash White to get some cool Whip effects? Such as Obzedat, Ghost Council when you whip him from the graveyard he doesnt exile from the whip, just his own trigger and then comes in again next turn etc. Or some real fatties that have ETB effects like Armada Wurmwhere you'll keep the 5/5 trample token after whip exiles?
Im just thinking to get max value. Maybe this should be more Reanimator related, if so, sorry
5 toughness beats Anger
0 Power beats Reckoner
It wastes their burn if they double-up
If they dont they'll have a tough time catching up.
Great against aggro too.
Love it.
I have never beaten it in its current form as uwr control where mono black folds to me.
He runs abrupt decay to take out d-sphere and golgari charm to hit other enchamts.
Mutavault for the win, normally.
We have a couple of good Jund players also, but they went 4-3 at the GP day 1.
Just thought I'd post here as its a bit rock-like, and should appear on daily MTG with the results...
I have run Illinests list on Cockatrice with good success, sideboarding primeval bounty, some removal, anti-blue flash and hunters prowess. I also mainboarded God's Willing for the extra push and protection.
Two issues I'm coming across
1) not drawing hexproofers early and having spot removal stall me out
2) blood baron and StormBreath Dragon. Pro White + Black with lifelink.
Erebos sadly didnt show his face, so it was grindy until a packrat spam attack.
The new Jund lists pack the Dragon which hurts big time, and Esper (whats left) and midrange Orzov and orsoz control and Dega all pack the Baron.
Its fair to assume these are threats we need to deal with that arent hit by the charms.
Any other options to help here? Not much in the way of green removal...