EDIT 2: 122 people is also far too small of a number for a community with thousands of players. It is at best anecdotal, like if I polled 4 people out of a possible 100 in a building.
If your study looks at multiple buildings in a city you don't really need more than 4 people in each building you sample, and you aren't sampling every building either.
Anyways, no online survey is representative of anything due to a variety of factors. There's pretty much no way to get perfectly accurate results of what people in EDH care about because even if WotC included a little survey in each EDH product: 1) not everyone will buy the product, 2) not everyone who buys it will send it back; so that will create a skew towards the type of player who does buy the product and does send back the survey.
But honestly, with the amount of people who look at this sites EDH Subforums and that 4,748 people looked at the thread and didn't feel strongly enough about the results as to add more votes, it's a pretty good assumption that most people either agree with the current results on the poll or don't care about it. And if most people really neither want them nor care one way or the other then what's the point of changing the rules?
Also, while adding PWs as commanders *might* be fun, with no BaaC list the normal banlist will just get longer because of certain PWs being banned (either current ones or future printings) even though they're perfectly fine within the other 99, and that's not a great thing.
Silumgar Sorc is at best a Cancel, which is already pretty bad. It's alright exclusively in Inalla where... it's literally a mystic snake.
Mystic Snake is not in "semi-rare" colors in EDH, U/G/x is fairly popular due to being one of the strongest color combination.
Glen Elendra is a double counter that needs to be answered twice to get rid of it... which also flies which can be relevant, so it's also very good.
False, he can be used with Inalla. The copy still ETBs even if you decide to get rid of it due to legendary rule, so it can bounce up to two things, itself included so you can keep reusing him.
Lastly, Daring Apprentice can be nifty in Inalla since you can play him first before trying to combo off or in order to protect something else. I would never run it, but it's not a horrible choice if you lack better counters. He's actually potentially better than the sorc since it can counter two things, albeit it's telegraphed.
> Would a strictly better version that doesn't even require the creature part to be present on cast need to be banned?
So basically now you can only hope it either gets countered or you can destroy 1-x lands in hopes that the land type condition can't be met.
Are you serious? Lol.
Mechanically it doesn't really seem that useful outside of not playing consistently in a single meta. Due to the restrictions of the wishes you're likely going to limit yourself to two, maybe three, wishes. So if you absolutely need those cards to deal with the current meta you're gonna need to expend resources to get the wish, to then cast it, and then use your card. Much more efficient to jam them mainboard if you know they're good in your group.
I know some people say that they'll get used for land color hate, but that seems pretty bad. It will probably only seriously damage one player, but then you still have two others to deal with. If they were legal the only card i can really think of off the top of my head that I would run there instead of main board is Glacial Chasm, but i also play control and just try to counter anything that seems problematic, kek.
I also think I made a mistake regarding the sorting of triggers, but I'm unsure:
I resurrected World Shaper with Atzal, Cave of Eternity, sacrificed it in Altar of Dementia to mill myself for three (I had a lot of lands in the grave at that time) and milled Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. I wasn't sure and didn't want to cheat, so I didn't get any lands back and shuffled my graveyard into my library. But now that I think about it, I believe I could have gotten the lands back into play before the shuffling happened.
Since World Shapers is a death trigger and sacrificing for the altar is a cost you can't mill 3 first, World Shapers ability would resolve before the altar. You would get all the lands currently in the grave, then mill 3, then resolve the Ulamog trigger that popped up.
Only time you decide the order of triggers is when they happen simultaneously, for example if in those three cards you killed both a Narcomeba and an Ulamog. In this case you could either stack narcomeba on top of Ulamog to get into play before shuffling, or vice-versa to send narcomeba back to the deck.
The Obzedat player was locked out of using his commander when the Damia player cast Trickbind in response to Obzedat returning from exile. So Obzedat stayed in exile. Without ever changing zones, it couldn't return to the command zone. Once that happened, I knew my threat was going to be Damia.
Pretty sure Obzedat is like Norin where when you exile him you can instead send him to the command zone and his trigger will put him back in play as long as he doesn't change zones again.
Leyline
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Show and Tell
Omniscience
Any 'to hand' tutor.
Use the rocks to fuel Show and Tell.
Show and Tell into Omniscience
Cast the tutor searching for another 'to hand' tutor.
Use the second tutor to grab Seasons Past.
Use Seasons Past to grab the tutors.
Use one tutor to fetch Praetor's Grasp and the other to get Seasons Past again.
Then each loop of Tutor -> Seasons Past lets you exile one card from an opponents library while searching for one in your own. Deck everyone out while storming off.
But as also mentioned above, a lot easier, albeit still very unlikely, with P.Hulk.
I'm not sure what changes cEDH players would be looking for beyond perhaps the fast mana. My regular playgroup is more casual, and when you play online you rarely get a mix where everyone is running 100% decks, so I don't have enough experience actually playing at that level to have any suggestions, and I mostly follow ban list discussions from a casual perspective or 1v1 sub formats (which don't really translate well into multiplayer). What ideas do you have?
Banning fast mana would probably be a bad idea for cEDH as it would push decks into green even more. Their style of play seems pretty healthy using the RCs banlist as a variety of decks and gameplans exist (except pure Agro which is bad even in casual because 90-120 life is a lot).
I'm entertaining a though experiement in which the color identity rules are reverted, but rule 4 remains gone. Basically, you could only play cards that shared a color with your commander, so that G/W cat tribal deck can now play Mtenda Lion and your mono white equipment deck can play Bringer of the White Dawn, while at the same time the very cards that the color identity rules change sought to bring into the format can still exist as playable generals, because their decks can still add the colored mana needed to activate their generals, which is going to be a burden born by the crazy amount of good manarocks and lands we've gotten since 2010.
I don't see this change being universally popular, since it would only strip extra color identities from cards, but it also doesn't add 1-4 extra color identities to cards that could be played a monocolor deck either. In theory, the majority of commander decks feel nothing based on this rule change and a few cards win while a few lose, but the losers are still legal cards and can function in games, the decks just need to be adjusted.
So legendaries like Tasigur, Alesha, ect would now be mono colored? Lol.
From a competitive standpoint, paradox engine has been much much stronger than the green big stuffs cards we've seen banned in the past. Paradox engine created entire archetypes that are designed to just get paradox engine out as fast as possible and win on the spot.
Paradox engine can and will absolutely make the entire game about paradox engine if your deck can draw cards well. You are almost certainly about to take the next 10 minutes playing out your turn when this happens. To pull this off, you need the same mana rocks you are probably running anyways, and the same card draw you are probably running anyways.
Your definition of regular card isn't consistent. POK requires you to have creatures to cast every turn and that it isn't removed. Leovold requires you to have wheels. Primeval and Sylvan require the game to proceed at a slower pace to be valuable. All of these cards have power that can vary depending on both the deck they are in and the current board state, which is the same definition you used to shoot down paradox engine.
Competitive standpoints don't matter to the RC, and even if it did most real cEDH decks don't run it. The fact that there are decks literally built to play with it is another good reason why it should stay, format diversity.
It's not the same thing. Titan and Primordial made EVERYONE's game about them. Everyone would start trying to steal, clone, kill, or revive them for value. Sure, decks wouldn't change much by just adding a Dox Engine to it, but that's not a guarantee that it'd actually be good in the deck, if that was the case everyone would be running it.
PoK doesn't require anything. Just being able to untap is good enough, the flash is what pushes it over the top. (You also always have access to your commander so theres that too). It also tended to centralize games similarly to Titan and Primordial. And those last two don't require a slower game at all, they just need the deck to have green, if it was legal again almost every green deck would rejam them in because of the tempo swing and abusability they provide at any point of the game.
Again, if your playgroup doesn't like it just talk to the person playing it. The only box this card should be maybe be ticked for the RC on this card is "Creates Undesirable Game States (Losing is not an undesirable game state)", because of the potential durdling. But when you look at the amount of cards that are currently legal that extend the game by over half an hour in casual decks, it's utterly ridiculous to ban Dox Engine for that.
As a side note, it's pretty amusing how some people say that running more removal isn't an answer when across their listed decks theres a grand total of only 4 instant speed removals. How do you expect cards to not beat you if you can't interact on the stack at all?
They're nothing alike with the exception that they untap things. For Dox Engine to win on the spot the person needs: at least 3~4 mana rocks on board, and one or more cards in play or in hand that let him continue to draw or some kind of reusable tutor like Yisan or maybe Pod or lots of cards in hand, a boardstate like that should be causing people to be casting worried glances in that direction anyways. PoK, on the other hand, only requires you to have her in play in order to start letting you take turns during everyone elses turns.
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
Omniscience costs 10 mana, paradox engine costs 5 and lets you float mana for activations and x-spells. At the low low cost of playing good mana rocks. Paradox engine is about 1000% better than omniscience in EDH.
Wrong. To do Season's Past loops I'd need around 6 mana from rocks/dorks vs just omniscence. Six mana from rocks/dorks + 5 opening mana for the Dox Engine is also more than the three I'd need for Isochron Scepter x Dramatic Reversal, which also needs 3 mana less to get into play. So not only is Dox Engine not always better than Omniscience, it's not even always better than it's more similar equivalents. (As a side note dox engine with isochron scepter is probably fun as sh*t)
People already play Tooth and Nail, Omniscience, DEN, Craterhoof Behemoth, Insurrection, Sepulchral Primordial, Mikaeus x sac outlet x ballista. This is just more of the same. At worst it does absolutely nothing, normally it reduces your spells by X, where X is the amount of mana you can produce from non-land sources, and at best it can carry your deck to victory. If you don't like it cut it from your deck (like how someone else said they did above), talk to the person using it, or answer it or the cards it needs to win.
Also with that example of yours, if you actually drew a god hand like that, because thats 4 cards + the dox engine + something that you can chain to win, you honestly deserve to win, lol.
If your study looks at multiple buildings in a city you don't really need more than 4 people in each building you sample, and you aren't sampling every building either.
Anyways, no online survey is representative of anything due to a variety of factors. There's pretty much no way to get perfectly accurate results of what people in EDH care about because even if WotC included a little survey in each EDH product: 1) not everyone will buy the product, 2) not everyone who buys it will send it back; so that will create a skew towards the type of player who does buy the product and does send back the survey.
But honestly, with the amount of people who look at this sites EDH Subforums and that 4,748 people looked at the thread and didn't feel strongly enough about the results as to add more votes, it's a pretty good assumption that most people either agree with the current results on the poll or don't care about it. And if most people really neither want them nor care one way or the other then what's the point of changing the rules?
Also, while adding PWs as commanders *might* be fun, with no BaaC list the normal banlist will just get longer because of certain PWs being banned (either current ones or future printings) even though they're perfectly fine within the other 99, and that's not a great thing.
Mystic Snake is not in "semi-rare" colors in EDH, U/G/x is fairly popular due to being one of the strongest color combination.
Glen Elendra is a double counter that needs to be answered twice to get rid of it... which also flies which can be relevant, so it's also very good.
False, he can be used with Inalla. The copy still ETBs even if you decide to get rid of it due to legendary rule, so it can bounce up to two things, itself included so you can keep reusing him.
Lastly, Daring Apprentice can be nifty in Inalla since you can play him first before trying to combo off or in order to protect something else. I would never run it, but it's not a horrible choice if you lack better counters. He's actually potentially better than the sorc since it can counter two things, albeit it's telegraphed.
So basically now you can only hope it either gets countered or you can destroy 1-x lands in hopes that the land type condition can't be met.
Are you serious? Lol.
I know some people say that they'll get used for land color hate, but that seems pretty bad. It will probably only seriously damage one player, but then you still have two others to deal with. If they were legal the only card i can really think of off the top of my head that I would run there instead of main board is Glacial Chasm, but i also play control and just try to counter anything that seems problematic, kek.
Since World Shapers is a death trigger and sacrificing for the altar is a cost you can't mill 3 first, World Shapers ability would resolve before the altar. You would get all the lands currently in the grave, then mill 3, then resolve the Ulamog trigger that popped up.
Only time you decide the order of triggers is when they happen simultaneously, for example if in those three cards you killed both a Narcomeba and an Ulamog. In this case you could either stack narcomeba on top of Ulamog to get into play before shuffling, or vice-versa to send narcomeba back to the deck.
Pretty sure Obzedat is like Norin where when you exile him you can instead send him to the command zone and his trigger will put him back in play as long as he doesn't change zones again.
Leyline
Lotus Petal
Mana Crypt
Show and Tell
Omniscience
Any 'to hand' tutor.
Use the rocks to fuel Show and Tell.
Show and Tell into Omniscience
Cast the tutor searching for another 'to hand' tutor.
Use the second tutor to grab Seasons Past.
Use Seasons Past to grab the tutors.
Use one tutor to fetch Praetor's Grasp and the other to get Seasons Past again.
Then each loop of Tutor -> Seasons Past lets you exile one card from an opponents library while searching for one in your own. Deck everyone out while storming off.
But as also mentioned above, a lot easier, albeit still very unlikely, with P.Hulk.
Banning fast mana would probably be a bad idea for cEDH as it would push decks into green even more. Their style of play seems pretty healthy using the RCs banlist as a variety of decks and gameplans exist (except pure Agro which is bad even in casual because 90-120 life is a lot).
So legendaries like Tasigur, Alesha, ect would now be mono colored? Lol.
Competitive standpoints don't matter to the RC, and even if it did most real cEDH decks don't run it. The fact that there are decks literally built to play with it is another good reason why it should stay, format diversity.
It's not the same thing. Titan and Primordial made EVERYONE's game about them. Everyone would start trying to steal, clone, kill, or revive them for value. Sure, decks wouldn't change much by just adding a Dox Engine to it, but that's not a guarantee that it'd actually be good in the deck, if that was the case everyone would be running it.
PoK doesn't require anything. Just being able to untap is good enough, the flash is what pushes it over the top. (You also always have access to your commander so theres that too). It also tended to centralize games similarly to Titan and Primordial. And those last two don't require a slower game at all, they just need the deck to have green, if it was legal again almost every green deck would rejam them in because of the tempo swing and abusability they provide at any point of the game.
Again, if your playgroup doesn't like it just talk to the person playing it. The only box this card should be maybe be ticked for the RC on this card is "Creates Undesirable Game States (Losing is not an undesirable game state)", because of the potential durdling. But when you look at the amount of cards that are currently legal that extend the game by over half an hour in casual decks, it's utterly ridiculous to ban Dox Engine for that.
As a side note, it's pretty amusing how some people say that running more removal isn't an answer when across their listed decks theres a grand total of only 4 instant speed removals. How do you expect cards to not beat you if you can't interact on the stack at all?
Sure Dox Engine can cause turns to durdle a bit even if the person doesn't end up winning, but if your group does't like it then just talk to the player, thats what the "social contract" aspect of the format is supposed to be?
Like honestly, if cards are going to start getting banned because they win with "things you're already running" then you may as well ban Createrhoof Behemoth, as he can win 'out of nowhere' with just a couple of creatures out, or either Isochron Scepter or Dramatic Reversal as they're far stronger than Dox Engine, albeit its two cards.
Other people have already mentioned that they haven't had issued with Dox Engine. Why that is who knows, but t's not Primeval Titan or Sylvan Primordial which degenerate the entire flow of the game around them, it's not PoK which lets you essentially take 4 turns to everyone elses single turn, it's not the overly costed spells that invalidate the rest of the game, or Braids or Leovold which can easily turn the entire game into a long durdle or lock people out of playing. It's a regular card whose power can vary depending on both the deck it's in and the current boardstate.
Wrong. To do Season's Past loops I'd need around 6 mana from rocks/dorks vs just omniscence. Six mana from rocks/dorks + 5 opening mana for the Dox Engine is also more than the three I'd need for Isochron Scepter x Dramatic Reversal, which also needs 3 mana less to get into play. So not only is Dox Engine not always better than Omniscience, it's not even always better than it's more similar equivalents. (As a side note dox engine with isochron scepter is probably fun as sh*t)
Also with that example of yours, if you actually drew a god hand like that, because thats 4 cards + the dox engine + something that you can chain to win, you honestly deserve to win, lol.