Thanks for the detailed answer. Just some observations :
-if you have tron assembled, thopter/sword doesn't take many time to win the game. it is still a less reliable win condition than emrakul or slaver, but not really slow
-the "inconsistent" tron manabase lets you build your deck in a way that give some advantages. You play tron lands, so you want to add maps and signets to fix your colors. All of a sudden you are able to play thirst for knowledge that is an awesome card you can't play in an usual esper deck. Also, signets let you wrath the board on turn 3 or reanimate bombs on turn 4, that in some matchups is a saving grace. So maybe you don't need an extremely expensive win condition to gravitate towards a tron manabase. Ugin, hardcasting reanimation targets, sinking mana in thopter sword may already be good enough to justify playing urza lands, given the advantages you gain in overall deckbuilding.
First of all, sorry for my double post and the way my list was formatted. I just have a very old pc so i'm either forced to post from my phone or let strange things happen
Then,darksteel, i understand your sentiment that tron builds need a late game win condition, but isn't thopter foundry+sword such a win condition already? Ok, emrakul and mindslaver let you win also in weird ways like decking your opponent, but i don't know if that's necessary.
It's not like i'm averse to mindslaver, but mainly i don't like the fact that you are forced to run double academy ruins to tutor for it. With my build, i can run 1 ruins 1 haven and have the opportunity to gifts for thopter/sword or ugin, depending on what is better.
Also, it is relevant that ugin is unaffected by stony silence (and grave hate if drawn naturally). I feel like running both thoptersword and mindslaver makes us too vulnerable to cards opponents can board in. Having a 1x ugin that you can gifts for puts you in very good shape against stony silence, but it's not that good against rest in peace and such things because you can't tutor for him. In general, i am trying to find configurations that are not weak to these cards.... i don't know, we could just board in 4 disenchants , or different, redundant win conditions like 3x new emrakul, or even geist/dragonlord ojutai if we want to become better even against land destruction.
I'm not saying that i am right on these matters, i just want to know your opinions because i think they are topics worth discussing, especially the last part (if you find our win conditions are soft to certain sideboard cards and what would you do to improve them).
Hello everyone! i have been playing uw tron for some time with decent results but i don't post a lot. This is the list i am currently on :
Lands (25) : Creatures (3): Artifacts(9) : Other spells:
3 urza's power plant 1 Iona 3 Azorius Signet 4 path to exile
3 urza's mine 1 Elesh Norn 1 Talisman of Progress 3 wraths (wrath/day of judgment/verdict)
3 urza's tower 1 Snapcaster Mage 2 Expedition Map 2 condescend
1 haven of the spirit dragon 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 syncopate
1 academy ruins 1 Thopter Foundry 2 remand
3 flooded strand 1 Sword of the Meek 1 repeal
2 hallowed fountain 1 ugin the spirit dragon
2 seachrome coast 4 thirst for knowledge
1 snow covered plains 4 gifts ungiven
1 plains 1 Unburial Rites
1 island
1 watery grave
3 celestial colonnade
As you can see i'm only playing 3x of each tron land, because i decided to cut all the extremely mana intensive cards from my list (emrakul, mindslaver, sphinx's revelation.....). I have still 3 ways to win and all of them can be forced with gifts ungiven (ugin, thopter sword, unburial rites).
The only things i consider "flexible" are the syncopate(could easily become another condescend but i like to have the possibility of gifting for more counterspells) and the repeal (i'm pondering of replacing it with engineered explosives). I would really like to fit one ghost quarter in the manabase but i don't really want to cut anything. I'm happy with everything else, i just wonder if it makes sense at all to still play tron lands when the only real use they have is to have inevitability with thopter sword combo and cast ugin, elesh norn and iona ahead of schedule. I mean, very rarely i need to assemble tron to win games and often i don't even fetch tron lands with expedition map...
As for the sideboard, i always have these cards:
2 celestial purge
1 disenchant
2 "generic answers" (right now faith's fetters and engineered explosives)
2 negate
1 dispel
2 timely reinforcements
the rest fluctuates depending on the expected metagame and it can feature more removal (condemn,declaration in stone), hosers like leyline of sanctity or hurkyl's recall, reanimation targets like terastodon and void vinnower, and so on. I have yet to decide if i should include emrakul in my sideboard because i have an irrational fear that my win conditions won't be enough against certain decks especially post board when i could face graveyard hate, stony silence, and other random things that stop me from winning.
Do you think my approach is viable, or believe that more "robust" win conditions are needed ? any suggestions on how to improve maindeck or sideboard ?
Hello everyone! i have been playing uw tron for some time with decent results but i don't post a lot. This is the list i am currently on :
Lands (25) : Creatures (3): Artifacts(9) : Other spells:
3 urza's power plant 1 Iona 3 Azorius Signet 4 path to exile
3 urza's mine 1 Elesh Norn 1 Talisman of Progress 3 wraths (wrath/day of judgment/verdict)
3 urza's tower 1 Snapcaster Mage 2 Expedition Map 2 condescend
1 haven of the spirit dragon 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 syncopate
1 academy ruins 1 Thopter Foundry 2 remand
3 flooded strand 1 Sword of the Meek 1 repeal
2 hallowed fountain 1 ugin the spirit dragon
2 seachrome coast 4 thirst for knowledge
1 snow covered plains 4 gifts ungiven
1 plains 1 Unburial Rites
1 island
1 watery grave
3 celestial colonnade
As you can see i'm only playing 3x of each tron land, because i decided to cut all the extremely mana intensive cards from my list (emrakul, mindslaver, sphinx's revelation.....). I have still 3 ways to win and all of them can be forced with gifts ungiven (ugin, thopter sword, unburial rites).
The only things i consider "flexible" are the syncopate(could easily become another condescend but i like to have the possibility of gifting for more counterspells) and the repeal (i'm pondering of replacing it with engineered explosives). I would really like to fit one ghost quarter in the manabase but i don't really want to cut anything. I'm happy with everything else, i just wonder if it makes sense at all to still play tron lands when the only real use they have is to have inevitability with thopter sword combo and cast ugin, elesh norn and iona ahead of schedule. I mean, very rarely i need to assemble tron to win games and often i don't even fetch tron lands with expedition map...
As for the sideboard, i always have these cards:
2 celestial purge
1 disenchant
2 "generic answers" (right now faith's fetters and engineered explosives)
2 negate
1 dispel
2 timely reinforcements
the rest fluctuates depending on the expected metagame and it can feature more removal (condemn,declaration in stone), hosers like leyline of sanctity or hurkyl's recall, reanimation targets like terastodon and void vinnower, and so on. I have yet to decide if i should include emrakul in my sideboard because i have an irrational fear that my win conditions won't be enough against certain decks especially post board when i could face graveyard hate, stony silence, and other random things that stop me from winning.
Do you think my approach is viable, or believe that more "robust" win conditions are needed ? any suggestions on how to improve maindeck or sideboard ?
One problem i find with this deck is that we have A LOT of answers for creatures (wraths/paths/elesh norn) but very few answers for non creature permanents (usually just counterspells and a bounce spell main deck). I am going to try some oblivion ring variants because i want to be able to answer planeswalkers and other annoying cards more consistently ... I think i need at least 3 so that i can guarantee one of them with gifts but probably 4. The obvious ones are oblivion ring/banishing light/detention sphere and then i think i will try Quarantine Field. The cuts will be Ugin (you can't play him and blow up your own enchantments), repeal (i don't need to bounce when i have actual answers), and then i really don't know, probably some deck manipulation (anticipate or serum vision that i am playing right now), and maybe i can afford to cut one wrath effect, because in the end oblivion ring can also be creature removal and i can guarantee one wrath effect anyway searching for 2 wraths and snapcaster.
Newmodern's analysis is quite perfect, the only point i disagree with is sylvan messenger.
I find messenger to be better than lead, because while you usually draw 1 less card with him, you put a 2/2 elf on the field in the process so he is not a total tempo loss like lead. Furthermore, in attrition matchups you really don't want your card advantage spell to be countered, and messenger obviously can be cast off cavern.
The deck building constraints he imposes are minimal: how many non elf creatures are you running in your deck in the matchups where you need messenger/lead? usually not more than 2-4 (spellskite, ooze, forge tender.... )
Right now my maindeck features 3 chords, 4 companies and 2 messengers. I think it's good to have a couple more card advantage spells main deck, but of course if you only have to race in your meta 4 chords is the way to go.
I want to try running a single Temur Sabertooth, because right now it opens up a lot of possibilities with elvish visionary, sylvan messenger, reclamation sage, dwynen's elite. Unfortunately the 3 toughness probably means it is too fragile.
I don't know if that mtgo list is real good, and i suspect it is too clunky. Why play lead the stamped when you can have company and messenger ? Lead is leagues worse than the other two.
I'm happy to see someone play messenger though. I've been playing goblins in legacy for a lot of time and, although i'm happy they reprinted piledriver, i would have been a lot more happier with goblin ringleader. If i was an elves player (and i'm planning to be, i've almost acquired everything) i would be thrilled by sylvan messenger reprint and i think you guys underestimate a little the card. If you hit two elves with him it is already more card advantage than company (because you also have a 2/2 body on the field), but the absurd thing, and what made goblin ringleader so good in legacy, is the times when you hit 3-4 elves! I mean, which deck in modern has access to such card advantage, that is also uncounterable thanks to cavern of souls ? the answer is none.
I understand the fact that modern is a fast format where you usually need to interact or win quickly, and that collected company is less clunky because it puts elves directly on the field, but i am quite sure sylvan messenger is too good not to be considered. The perfect list is for sure still to discover, and probably it includes a mix of companies/messengers/chords.
Commune with the lava has been printed -- red version of cards like blue sun's zenith or sphinx's revelation. I don't know if it is playable or better than outpost siege/chandra, but certainly it is a unique effect and i think it should be considered.
Commune with the lava has been printed -- red version of cards like blue sun's zenith or sphinx's revelation. I don't know if it is playable or better than outpost siege/chandra, but certainly it is a unique effect and i think it should be considered.
Commune with the lava has been printed -- red version of cards like blue sun's zenith or sphinx's revelation. I don't know if it is playable or better than outpost siege/chandra, but certainly it is a unique effect and i think it should be considered.
Well, i cast arcbond after chumpblocking a 5/5 with grand master to wipe the board (he had 3 creatures and i had only him) gaining 25 life in the process
The new Mardu scout may be a decent option for this deck. The very nice thing is that he can make mogg conscripts and goblin cohort always be able to attack by casting him with dash every turn.
The new Mardu scout may be a decent option for this deck. The very nice thing is that he can make mogg conscripts and goblin cohort always be able to attack by casting him with dash every turn.
What about some copies of runed halo between main and side? It is good against scapeshift naming valakut, but it is a versatile card in general since it can stop whatever is being annoying in a particular moment.
I would also be interested in a manabase that could support slaughter games in sideboard. I think something like sewall's manabase -4 temples, - 1 mountain, +4 fetches +1 blood crypt.
-if you have tron assembled, thopter/sword doesn't take many time to win the game. it is still a less reliable win condition than emrakul or slaver, but not really slow
-the "inconsistent" tron manabase lets you build your deck in a way that give some advantages. You play tron lands, so you want to add maps and signets to fix your colors. All of a sudden you are able to play thirst for knowledge that is an awesome card you can't play in an usual esper deck. Also, signets let you wrath the board on turn 3 or reanimate bombs on turn 4, that in some matchups is a saving grace. So maybe you don't need an extremely expensive win condition to gravitate towards a tron manabase. Ugin, hardcasting reanimation targets, sinking mana in thopter sword may already be good enough to justify playing urza lands, given the advantages you gain in overall deckbuilding.
Then,darksteel, i understand your sentiment that tron builds need a late game win condition, but isn't thopter foundry+sword such a win condition already? Ok, emrakul and mindslaver let you win also in weird ways like decking your opponent, but i don't know if that's necessary.
It's not like i'm averse to mindslaver, but mainly i don't like the fact that you are forced to run double academy ruins to tutor for it. With my build, i can run 1 ruins 1 haven and have the opportunity to gifts for thopter/sword or ugin, depending on what is better.
Also, it is relevant that ugin is unaffected by stony silence (and grave hate if drawn naturally). I feel like running both thoptersword and mindslaver makes us too vulnerable to cards opponents can board in. Having a 1x ugin that you can gifts for puts you in very good shape against stony silence, but it's not that good against rest in peace and such things because you can't tutor for him. In general, i am trying to find configurations that are not weak to these cards.... i don't know, we could just board in 4 disenchants , or different, redundant win conditions like 3x new emrakul, or even geist/dragonlord ojutai if we want to become better even against land destruction.
I'm not saying that i am right on these matters, i just want to know your opinions because i think they are topics worth discussing, especially the last part (if you find our win conditions are soft to certain sideboard cards and what would you do to improve them).
Lands (25) : Creatures (3): Artifacts(9) : Other spells:
3 urza's power plant 1 Iona 3 Azorius Signet 4 path to exile
3 urza's mine 1 Elesh Norn 1 Talisman of Progress 3 wraths (wrath/day of judgment/verdict)
3 urza's tower 1 Snapcaster Mage 2 Expedition Map 2 condescend
1 haven of the spirit dragon 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 syncopate
1 academy ruins 1 Thopter Foundry 2 remand
3 flooded strand 1 Sword of the Meek 1 repeal
2 hallowed fountain 1 ugin the spirit dragon
2 seachrome coast 4 thirst for knowledge
1 snow covered plains 4 gifts ungiven
1 plains 1 Unburial Rites
1 island
1 watery grave
3 celestial colonnade
As you can see i'm only playing 3x of each tron land, because i decided to cut all the extremely mana intensive cards from my list (emrakul, mindslaver, sphinx's revelation.....). I have still 3 ways to win and all of them can be forced with gifts ungiven (ugin, thopter sword, unburial rites).
The only things i consider "flexible" are the syncopate(could easily become another condescend but i like to have the possibility of gifting for more counterspells) and the repeal (i'm pondering of replacing it with engineered explosives). I would really like to fit one ghost quarter in the manabase but i don't really want to cut anything. I'm happy with everything else, i just wonder if it makes sense at all to still play tron lands when the only real use they have is to have inevitability with thopter sword combo and cast ugin, elesh norn and iona ahead of schedule. I mean, very rarely i need to assemble tron to win games and often i don't even fetch tron lands with expedition map...
As for the sideboard, i always have these cards:
2 celestial purge
1 disenchant
2 "generic answers" (right now faith's fetters and engineered explosives)
2 negate
1 dispel
2 timely reinforcements
the rest fluctuates depending on the expected metagame and it can feature more removal (condemn,declaration in stone), hosers like leyline of sanctity or hurkyl's recall, reanimation targets like terastodon and void vinnower, and so on. I have yet to decide if i should include emrakul in my sideboard because i have an irrational fear that my win conditions won't be enough against certain decks especially post board when i could face graveyard hate, stony silence, and other random things that stop me from winning.
Do you think my approach is viable, or believe that more "robust" win conditions are needed ? any suggestions on how to improve maindeck or sideboard ?
Lands (25) : Creatures (3): Artifacts(9) : Other spells:
3 urza's power plant 1 Iona 3 Azorius Signet 4 path to exile
3 urza's mine 1 Elesh Norn 1 Talisman of Progress 3 wraths (wrath/day of judgment/verdict)
3 urza's tower 1 Snapcaster Mage 2 Expedition Map 2 condescend
1 haven of the spirit dragon 1 Crucible of Worlds 1 syncopate
1 academy ruins 1 Thopter Foundry 2 remand
3 flooded strand 1 Sword of the Meek 1 repeal
2 hallowed fountain 1 ugin the spirit dragon
2 seachrome coast 4 thirst for knowledge
1 snow covered plains 4 gifts ungiven
1 plains 1 Unburial Rites
1 island
1 watery grave
3 celestial colonnade
As you can see i'm only playing 3x of each tron land, because i decided to cut all the extremely mana intensive cards from my list (emrakul, mindslaver, sphinx's revelation.....). I have still 3 ways to win and all of them can be forced with gifts ungiven (ugin, thopter sword, unburial rites).
The only things i consider "flexible" are the syncopate(could easily become another condescend but i like to have the possibility of gifting for more counterspells) and the repeal (i'm pondering of replacing it with engineered explosives). I would really like to fit one ghost quarter in the manabase but i don't really want to cut anything. I'm happy with everything else, i just wonder if it makes sense at all to still play tron lands when the only real use they have is to have inevitability with thopter sword combo and cast ugin, elesh norn and iona ahead of schedule. I mean, very rarely i need to assemble tron to win games and often i don't even fetch tron lands with expedition map...
As for the sideboard, i always have these cards:
2 celestial purge
1 disenchant
2 "generic answers" (right now faith's fetters and engineered explosives)
2 negate
1 dispel
2 timely reinforcements
the rest fluctuates depending on the expected metagame and it can feature more removal (condemn,declaration in stone), hosers like leyline of sanctity or hurkyl's recall, reanimation targets like terastodon and void vinnower, and so on. I have yet to decide if i should include emrakul in my sideboard because i have an irrational fear that my win conditions won't be enough against certain decks especially post board when i could face graveyard hate, stony silence, and other random things that stop me from winning.
Do you think my approach is viable, or believe that more "robust" win conditions are needed ? any suggestions on how to improve maindeck or sideboard ?
I find messenger to be better than lead, because while you usually draw 1 less card with him, you put a 2/2 elf on the field in the process so he is not a total tempo loss like lead. Furthermore, in attrition matchups you really don't want your card advantage spell to be countered, and messenger obviously can be cast off cavern.
The deck building constraints he imposes are minimal: how many non elf creatures are you running in your deck in the matchups where you need messenger/lead? usually not more than 2-4 (spellskite, ooze, forge tender.... )
Right now my maindeck features 3 chords, 4 companies and 2 messengers. I think it's good to have a couple more card advantage spells main deck, but of course if you only have to race in your meta 4 chords is the way to go.
I want to try running a single Temur Sabertooth, because right now it opens up a lot of possibilities with elvish visionary, sylvan messenger, reclamation sage, dwynen's elite. Unfortunately the 3 toughness probably means it is too fragile.
I'm happy to see someone play messenger though. I've been playing goblins in legacy for a lot of time and, although i'm happy they reprinted piledriver, i would have been a lot more happier with goblin ringleader. If i was an elves player (and i'm planning to be, i've almost acquired everything) i would be thrilled by sylvan messenger reprint and i think you guys underestimate a little the card. If you hit two elves with him it is already more card advantage than company (because you also have a 2/2 body on the field), but the absurd thing, and what made goblin ringleader so good in legacy, is the times when you hit 3-4 elves! I mean, which deck in modern has access to such card advantage, that is also uncounterable thanks to cavern of souls ? the answer is none.
I understand the fact that modern is a fast format where you usually need to interact or win quickly, and that collected company is less clunky because it puts elves directly on the field, but i am quite sure sylvan messenger is too good not to be considered. The perfect list is for sure still to discover, and probably it includes a mix of companies/messengers/chords.
I would also be interested in a manabase that could support slaughter games in sideboard. I think something like sewall's manabase -4 temples, - 1 mountain, +4 fetches +1 blood crypt.