So, 2 utility lands. I like Finn's latest build, but obviously we need to figure out what those utility lands are going to be. I'd also assume the sideboard into discard package would go something like
106.7. Some abilities produce mana based on the type of mana another permanent or permanents "could produce." The type of mana a permanent could produce at any time includes any type of mana that an ability of that permanent would produce if the ability were to resolve at that time, taking into account any applicable replacement effects in any possible order. Ignore whether any costs of the ability could or could not be paid. If that permanent wouldn't produce any mana under these conditions, or no type of mana can be defined this way, there's no type of mana it could produce.
Relevant rule, emphasis mine. Squandered Resources would only produce black as long as Contamination is out, because Contamination creates a replacement effect that is taken into account by Squandered Resources.
My concern about Abyssal Persecutor is whether we have enough ways to kill him off ourselves atm. As far as I know, we only have Contamination, so even as a sideboard card, we'd have to bring in more ways to get rid of him when he's on our side to make it work.
Actually, no, it doesn't. You'll only be able to get B, because Squandered Resources checks what type of mana the land would be able to produce, and Contamination says "Yeah, that makes only black mana, sorry dude." Relevant rule is 106.7.
I definitely agree that sideboarding into a less grave-centric strategy would make sense. My main concern is that we lost a lot of sideboard space if we do that, but being able to greatly reduce the power of Rest in Peace against us game two would probably be worth it.
On the other hand, more than a few people have pointed out that could be highly disruptive to the format, and a number do not wish to see it come off the banned list. The discussion is only a couple pages back, if one wished to review and make sure they're not saying the same things over again.
Not designed with the nature of the format in mind. Always having access to a five color creature eliminates half the conditions of coalition victory, and the other half just involves having the mana to play it. Considering you can satisfy the basic land types part off of three duals/shocks, I see no real reason to unban it. Not to mention, and perhaps most importantly, it's kinda lame. It's similar to Biorhythm in that it wins the game with no other investment required, other than running a five color general. And since you have to have one in order to run it... To me, it falls on the "this isn't worth unbanning, and has a good reason for being banned" side of the fence.
First, when the Simic Manipulator's ability is activated, he's tapped and the counters are taken off as part of paying the cost. Then, the other player gets to respond with a Grisly Spectacle. The Spectacle resolves first, killing the Manipulator, which since the cost is already paid, has no counters on it. Then, because the ability is independent of the source, the Manipulator's ability resolves, taking control of the Rogue.
Additionally, I want to point out that I don't think popular vote is the proper way to run a ban list anyways. Not to mention the difficulty of polling such a diverse group as EDH players in general, meaning anecdotal and small group are probably the best we're going to get. That doesn't mean we shouldn't treat it with a grain of salt, but it's what we've got to go off of.
Out of curiosity, what are some of them? The big Hulk combos I know don't work in EDH, since they rely on 4 of 0-drop dudes, so I'm not sure what it can fetch up in EDH to win.
I kinda agree with the Painter's Servant/Iona swap. Painter's Servant could add some interesting options (Llawan, Cephalid Empress comes to mind as interesting, without being a total lock), while I went over why I dislike the trapishness of Iona a while back.
On a different note, are there any Protean Hulk packages that can just win the game, either on the spot or with a bit more mana investment? Or would it just be packages that provide a lot of value? I'm sure there's a few combo wins, but the question then becomes how much deckspace will you be investing in them, and how intentional they have to be. If there's easy, 'accidental' wincons when Protean Hulk dies, then I can see eliminating Flash. If not, it probably doesn't need to be banned either.
Interesting. I'm running into the opposite problem... I frequently don't feel like running out the Bloodghast because it doesn't seem to do enough unless it's specifically to maintain the lock.
Speaking of hating out, though, I do dislike how Rest in Peace really screws this deck unless we draw into our abrupt decays. Partly because of that, most of the stoneblade variants, especially b/w and esper, seem to be pretty good at destroying us, between batterskull being able to be cast even after the lock, and lingering souls. I'm kind of tempted to consider switching to another second color, the problem of course being we do lose out on the most powerful beatdown dude. That said, switching to white, for example, we gain Lingering souls, Vindicate, and Stoneforge, plus sundry other stuff in exchange for Tarm, Abrupt Decay, and any chance of running Life from the Loam. I'm just not sure if it's worth switching out.
So far, I've been running leyline as my gravehate, and Cabal Therapy+Hymn as combo hate in the side. Perish is probably a good idea, though it does hit a lot of our own dudes. Probably important for matchups like elves.
Also, so far testing has been amusing, considering I was kicked out of a game for not being 'serious' legacy, once I played contamination, and had several people have to read it before they responded.
...Moxnix, I would think at some point you would realize that there are different metas than your own. Where games can be won more by attrition than whoever gets the effect out fastest. Yes, when you play EDH as singleton Vintage, Nature's Claim is more important than Acidic Slime because it comes out soon enough to matter. That said, the vast majority of people do not play EDH as singleton Vintage, and in fact actively avoid doing so. In any meta where the first couple turns are spent ramping or playing things out to set up later game stuff, rather than actively trying to go off, then Acidic Slime wins by virtue of frequently being a two for one rather than a one for one trade.
Could swap Inquisition for Therapy. As far as utility lands... Volrath's Stronghold could be strong, and Phyrexian Tower has been mentioned.
Relevant rule, emphasis mine. Squandered Resources would only produce black as long as Contamination is out, because Contamination creates a replacement effect that is taken into account by Squandered Resources.
My concern about Abyssal Persecutor is whether we have enough ways to kill him off ourselves atm. As far as I know, we only have Contamination, so even as a sideboard card, we'd have to bring in more ways to get rid of him when he's on our side to make it work.
I definitely agree that sideboarding into a less grave-centric strategy would make sense. My main concern is that we lost a lot of sideboard space if we do that, but being able to greatly reduce the power of Rest in Peace against us game two would probably be worth it.
...Are you aware of the timeframes involved with the two cards you're mentioning?
On a different note, are there any Protean Hulk packages that can just win the game, either on the spot or with a bit more mana investment? Or would it just be packages that provide a lot of value? I'm sure there's a few combo wins, but the question then becomes how much deckspace will you be investing in them, and how intentional they have to be. If there's easy, 'accidental' wincons when Protean Hulk dies, then I can see eliminating Flash. If not, it probably doesn't need to be banned either.
Speaking of hating out, though, I do dislike how Rest in Peace really screws this deck unless we draw into our abrupt decays. Partly because of that, most of the stoneblade variants, especially b/w and esper, seem to be pretty good at destroying us, between batterskull being able to be cast even after the lock, and lingering souls. I'm kind of tempted to consider switching to another second color, the problem of course being we do lose out on the most powerful beatdown dude. That said, switching to white, for example, we gain Lingering souls, Vindicate, and Stoneforge, plus sundry other stuff in exchange for Tarm, Abrupt Decay, and any chance of running Life from the Loam. I'm just not sure if it's worth switching out.
Also, so far testing has been amusing, considering I was kicked out of a game for not being 'serious' legacy, once I played contamination, and had several people have to read it before they responded.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=491631