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- MasterFlex
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Member for 11 years, 2 months, and 16 days
Last active Sun, May, 31 2015 13:26:58
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Sep 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW MidrangeThanks. If the name continues to be well received, I'll unify it across the primer before we roll it out.Posted in: MasterFlex -
Sep 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW MidrangeGreat recommendations. I'll roll them in!Posted in: MasterFlex
I agree about the Hawks, btw. They have value, but I think sculler is really the better choice. There's been chatter about them on the current thread, so I'll throw them a bone. -
Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerBitterblossom is listed as an alternative token generator.Posted in: MasterFlex
BB trades immediate board impact for gradual dominance. It takes 3 turns (and 3 life) to produce as much as a spectral procession. In the early game, that's great, but in the mid to late game, that's not good. Couple that with the loss of life, while keeping in mind we also play shocklands, fetch lands, and thoughtseize, and BB can do as much to kill ourselves as our opponents. That's why it's not a core card.
It has been played successfully. I think (he can correct me if I'm wrong) Jango555 plays a BB list. -
Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerAll good suggestions, Thanks!Posted in: MasterFlex
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Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerThanks for the feedback! I fixed the spoilers (I never meant to remove then, but apparently if you mis-type a tag with this many tags on the page, you break them all). That "preview" button has become my best friend, lol.Posted in: MasterFlex
I'll update the matchups, and add Oring, fulminator mage, and pithing needle as sideboard options. -
Jun 19, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token Primer*Edit* I fixed the spoiler tagsPosted in: MasterFlex
I'll re-write the core-creatures section to clarify that you don't need 3 Brimaz (or even 3 Hero). As I see it, you want to start with a hero/brimaz type of creature, and then grab a few from the "alternatives" section. Those provide a way to adapt to meta/personal play style.
I agree that Zealous Persecution should be added back to the event decklist (probably -2 doom blade, -1 anthem), and the 3 creatures should be an either/or. I leaned toward Brimaz because he's in Standard, but you are correct, Hero is better bang for the buck.
Good recommendation on not over extending, I'll add it to the advice section. Since we don't really draw, it is smart to only produce tokens as needed to win.
A featured deck list option is a good idea. It may get canned if there is not enough decks placing (or I can't keep up with it). -
Jun 18, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerNot sure what I did, but the spoiler tags are not working.Posted in: MasterFlex
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Jun 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on BW Token PrimerPosted in: MasterFlexQuote from Jango555 »I absolutely think Zealous Persecution is a core card...I would never play less then three copies in the main.
also I think that Tidehollow Sculler should be in the main deck section...maybe that is just personal opinion, but I think it is a key part of the deck even of you chose not to run him
Thanks for the work you put into this! We really needed to restart this thread...
Let me know if anything in particular sounds too bias. I want to be pretty neutral, but I'm not a pro-writer, so it's tough.
I'm keeping sculler in the alternatives for now. He's pretty controversial and we've spent a TON of time hammering his role down. As I put it, "skuller always risks being situational, which is why I list him as an alternative to Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek"
Quote from krimsonviper »
A few things I would change:
The second sentence in section 2 has "cards cards." Might want to fix that typo.
I would also say what amounts of each card to be considered for the deck, I.E. 2-4 Hero of Bladehold. Do not include any budget suggestions. Budget suggestions should be addressed as "we do not address budgeting" either verbally or just by not mentioning it. Allowing this can throw the deck thread of course. There's a budget forum for a reason. Though I know this is annoying having to point people into it's direction, it derails the fundamentals. In the MUs section, please include Burn, UWR Midrange, Gr Tron, all versions of Twin, UR Storm, and the mirror. Less "spoilers." I know it makes the thread nice and clean, but having to click on every single piece of the primer to read gets tiresome. Remove Zealous Persecution from the pictures at the top and maybe replace it with an actual core card. Having it there makes readers believe it's a core card when it's not.
Thanks for the feedback! Ultimately, the deck has TONS of optional cards, and I aim to address as many as possible, as almost all questions are "can I use this/what works in ____ match?". Can you think of ANY cards I failed to mention? I could probably throw a bone to Worship.
I fixed the typo, and scrubbed every use of the word "budget" (which I did only twice, actually). I understand the budget rule, but have never liked it, especially for a lower tier deck that I personally built due to budget. Anyway, that's a different topic.
Back on the subject of the prier: Zealous Persecution stays in the "Core" list, but I will use a different picture up top (mainly because I'm not a fan of the art). It is consistently recommended by the pro's, and appears in successful decklists.
I'll update the matches.
Can you recommend cards against Tron? I've honestly never played them.
I'll try cutting a few spoilers. Part of what they do is put heading info in the raw text of the spoiler. This thing is damn long, so having clear subdivisions is needed to make maintaining easier.
I did start off writing the number of each card you should play in the deck, but found that I was basically just telling people to build my deck (which isn't really right). Next, I listed a range, but found myself almost always typing "0-4", so instead, I listed amounts by category. I have gone back and added notes next to cards that are a mandatory 4x (lingering souls, etc).
Please be critical now, it's better to make modifications with the watchful eyes of a core group, then with the view of the whole forum. -
Feb 17, 2014
MasterFlex posted a message on Standard DecksHere's the decklist, since it didn't publish for some reason.Posted in: MasterFlex
Jund MonstersMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Creatures
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Courser of Kruphix
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Polukranos, World Eater
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Arbor Colossus
2 Kalonian Hydra
1 Xenagos, God of Revels
Instants/Sorc
1 Hero's Downfall
3 DreadboreWalkers
3 Domri Rade
3 Xenagos, the Reveler
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
Lands
4 Temple of Abandon
4 Temple of Malic
4 Stomping Ground
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
2 Mountain
1 SwampSideboard
3 Mistcutter Hydra
3 Golgari Charm
2 Bow of Nylea
3 Unravel the Aether
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Gruul Charm
To finish the deck, I still need: 2 temples of malice, 2 mizzium mortars, 1 golgari charm
Need: 1 Scourge, 1 Nykthos, 1 stormbreath (puts my total count to 4), 2 legion's initiative (if I like it)
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I'd drop Sin Collector, Mirran Crusader, move Zealous Persecution to the main (replace a kill spell of your choice). That gives you room to get some of those sideboard options to 3x.
As for the other deck, 4 Brimaz is silly (being a legend), and what's up with that sideboard? Disfigure, Duress, and Kor Firewalker seem redundant. I still advocate RiP over Relic of Progenitus, and 4 Stony Silence is over kill. Might have gone 4-0 with a better side, lol.
Remand is very much a tempo card. It delays your opponent, and gives you a card. It can be pseudo Time Walk when used properly. As such, it's used by decks that have instant win combos (Gifts Tron, Twin, Scapeshift), and really just need time, or to protect the combo from 1 spell. It's not really a good tool for our deck.
Flagstones is only practical as a budget fetchland, and even so I would just save up for the real thing (unless you just got flagstones laying around).
I'm definitely behind the times on Burn and Delver. If anyone has match advice, I'd be happy to put it in the primer. In general, PM me that kinda stuff so it doesn't clog up the thread. I think Bojuka Bog could replace a swamp or two. It would create a nice surprise against goyf/scooze, and can slow down treasure cruise.
Saying, "X deck is our biggest problem" is cyclical with the meta. Last year, everyone was saying "Affinity is our biggest problem" because it was a large portion of the field. Burn is a good deck, and it's everywhere, so yeah, it's a problem. I recommend Layline of Sanctity in the side, and Timely Reinforcements in the main because of it. Still, the biggest problem with BW Tokens for years has been that we're a fair deck, with no draw/cantrip/search mechanic.
I think Esper Charm competes with our 3cmc token/creature spell. On paper, I'd go for Azorius Charm. All 3 modes looks pretty useful.
Aside from needing 4 Marsh Flats, the land base looks great. I think 24 is good place to be because of the tech edges and vault. I like vault. It rarely does anything, but once in a while it will win games.
If you're worried about burn, I would not run the scullers. 6 discard effects is probably enough. You could add in another inquisition if you really want 7. I would find space in your main for the go for the throats (or whatever kill spell you fancy), probably by removing the 2 scullers. More often than not, targeted kill spells are useful. I'd rather side them out for something else, than the other way around. If you can't get your hands on Solemn Visitor, go for Elspeth Tirel. She really is crazy powerful, and definitely better than Sorin:LoI. Finally, you need Spectral Procession number 4. I too like Brimaz, so maybe drop 1 raise the alarm.
On the subject of sideboard, I'm not an extirpate/extraction fan, but some people swear by them. It's tough to guess what you're going into. Burn is cheap and popular, so that's pretty likely, as is Afinity. If you do well, you'll probably see an expensive top tier deck. I'd bet on Jund, Pod, UWR Control, or all three. I'd do this:
3 Layline of Sanctity (stop burn)
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender (stop red sweepers)
3 Rest in Peace (see the primer, it hits a ton of decks)
3 Stoney Silence (same as RiP)
2 Sundering Growth (enchantments and artifacts)
2 Liliana of the Veil (anti control)
This should help you against everything but Jund but I think your main is good against them already. It also only gives you RiP against storm and living end. If that's a concern, I would cut Liliana, then 1 RiP, then 1 Stoney if you want to make room. Also, not to make you more unsure, but this also leaves you open to Amulet of Vigor, Combo Elves, and a few other fringe decks. At a large event, I wouldn't worry about them.
It's really about practice practice practice from here. The deck is solid. Make sure you read up on the match-up section, and read the primers for the other big decks. It super sucks to loose to a Pod deck because both you and your opponent didn't remember the "activate only as a sorcery" clause on Birthing Pod.
This gets debated often. Relic of Progenitus can be baited out an played around, while RiP is a brick wall. I strongly encourage RiP as a better option for grave hate. As for Jund, our best card against them is Lingering Souls, as Katria pointed out, and we want to flash it back. Jund is all about efficient trades. Making 4 tokens off a single spell is super back breaking. Check my list in the primer (ignore the side, it's 100% for my local, burn-less meta). You'll notice I run Engineered Explosives. Set at 2, that kills goyf, scooze, and bob.
I don't think so. Stoneforge is non-legendary. To me, that implies more than one exist, so it's like a rank or a title. Nahiri happens to be one, but it doesn't prove/disprove her planeswalkerness.
Also, I'm over the moon about these decks. I haven't been this excited for a product in years. Solid card choices, and the new stuff is very creative. Let's see some good reprints in the other 4 decks!
2 Hero of Bladehold
Tokens
3 Raise the Alarm
4 Lingering Souls
4 Spectral Procession
3 Treasure Cruise
4 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Honor of the Pure
2 Intangible Virtue
Walker
2 Elspeth Tirel
Land
24 land
With access to three colors, I'd definitely main engineered explosives. I also don't like raise the alarm, but I would try it first, as it's another cheap instant that can get tossed in the bin.
On a side note, decks like this that have been solid in color identity for awhile saying, "let's splash blue for treasure cruise" is exactly what'll get the card banned, lol
I don't know how I feel about the archangel of thune. Don't get me wrong, it's crazy powerful when attacking, or with Sorin's tokens, but you only have 1 sorin. I think Elspeth Tirel will have more of an immediate effect on the game in the same 5cmc slot.
Brimaz > Mirran Crusader if you aren't playing tons of Jund. Crusader is sweet against a field of Goyf, Scooze, and Thrun.
Voice of Regurgitation is a great option for a Junk build. It really punishes UWR Midrange and Control. If you have it and windswept, give it a shot.
Could you elaborate on what makes a large number of 3 drops bad? The majority of the best BW options are 3 drops (pack rat, Liliana, Brimaz, Lingering souls, fulminator, kitchen finks, phyrexian arena, blade splicer). In a few cases (brimaz and Liliana come to mind) their best attributes are the low 3 cmc. Our 4 cmc and greater threats are limited to Elspeth, sorin, resto angel, hero of bladehold, batterskull, phyrexian obliterator, and baneslayer angel. All of which are powerful, but not the kind of card you run as a 4x (a hand full of batterkulls would not be great, and flipping them off a bob would be even worse). If you mean the curve is too high, we have no choice. Comparing to jund (and including scooz as a 3 drop), they sit at 12. The 4 goyfs make 16. There's no replacement to Goyf (as the $200 price tag indicates), so I feel this deck is as equivalent as it gets.
Just to be clear, I'll keep BW Midrange in the title and primer, precisely so new players looking for info can find it. There's pretty regular, "so can we call this deck something else" conversation on the tread, I'd like to settle it.
I'm not a fan of Orzhov because it's harder to type than BW, and doesn't save any syllables when spoken. I also consider it already cemented in the vernacular BW=Orzhov, so I didn't see much of a reason to make it a separate option. I went ahead and added it now. If you'd like to change your vote, feel free.
To Valanarch's point, I'll keep the poll up for a few more days. Deadguy + BW Midrange (the two current names for the deck) hold 60% of all the votes, so a run off would be pretty meaningless. If the alternative names all together count for 50%+, we can do a runoff.
BW Midrange has had a thread in established since the early summer, it just took some time to get a full primer. See deck eligibility criteria here; we're on the list.
The number of 3 drops is fine. We're not the kind of deck that always wants to play a specific card on turn 3, so "competing" for the 3 slot isn't an issue.
I'm not surprised at your list of lost matches. Bogles, burn, and affinity are tough. BW Tokens is also probably a hair in their favor. It has good game against midrange decks.
I play 25 lands. 2 of which are Ghost Quarter, so I side them out if I don't need them. I consider 23 a bare minimum, as we're not just slow when stuck at 2 lands, we can't play at all. I tried a junk version, and never had a problem getting the mana, it was just too painful to recover and then push for a win. I definitely think a tri-color is possible.
As for the list you posted, at the time I didn't reply to it. For me, red brings in some sideboard options (wear // tear, slaughter games) but the key card is Young Pyromancer. I'm not a fan of Lightning Bolt and Lightning Helix. They're great in a vacuum, but I don't think they help our overall plan. We don't really need them to finish off opponents. Our creatures should get there just fine. For removing creatures, we have hard removal, like path and doomblade. I think another good red addition could be Chandra, Pyromaster. In a deck that plays off the top, she's a free draw. She may come down too late to actually help, not sure.