No BlazingRagnarok. You were right the first time. Can there really be a question? If basic lands were only ever printed in alpha... they would be insanely high. Sure there are other lands... but still. Now of course, in this line of argument and discussion, we need to assume magic didn't die as it clearly would have about 4 months in, if the only basics were in alpha. But they would be scary high now. literally pretty much every deck in majority of formats needs them
I agree with sol ring. I don't think it was ever nearing $20, though some printings certainly were, but I think I never paid more than $10 for a revised ring, and usually closer to $5 until about a year or so before the first commander deck, then they started going up a bit... then announced and back down. That's why I have a sol ring that could theoretically be the first sol ring ever printed... probably isn't, but could be. And alpha rings aren't going to be going down
I don't necessarily agree with bolt, it would be higher, but without the reprint it would only be vintage legal, so it wouldn't have the demand in modern. That does of course delegitimize my first point a little, but ignoring that.
Ritual may also be a tough one. If the interactions were discovered, absolutely, but the reprinting of it allowed it it be mixed. I remember when ritual was not a good card. Bold was always good. Sol ring was always good. Ritual... took some time, and interaction
Alpha shivans are pretty high now, not sure if reprints had anything to do with it, but maybe. I heard about shivan being traded for a lotus before anyone knew that 3 mana was good.
Birds DEFINITELY fits the bill. They were $10 bills for the longest time. Then they got reprinted and hit the floor. I traded for them at about $8, and traded them away for $10 for years. I was bummed when they got all the reprints, but I didn't have a large inventory left so not that bummed... Now that BoPs are rising again, I would definitely assume they'd be A LOT higher with a lot fewer reprints...
I think to find the REALLY expensive answers to this, you need to look at modern/vintage staples, in both formats, that were originally from a modern set. That way they are in modern, but only printed once, backed by the need in vintage. I'm drawing a bit of a blank, but Goyf would seem a candidate, not sure though how much the limited reprints truly effect the price.
Scooze could be.
Path and Swords definitely agree
Silver, I was not being condescending. But maybe I should be for you. If you are going to assume someone who has been playing this game from the beginning, trying to show that the game was different, because I'd assume no one else on this post has been playing as long, you just don ' tknow.
Sorry if trying to educate people about what magic was actually like to be played, instead of just looking back on a time you didn't play in and didn't understand is condescending... that is your issue. Most people here never played during the days of Dominaria, so I am not sure exactly what kind of expertise you bring to the discussion.
Having young players try and tell us old players what the game was like before those young players were playing is rather obnoxious.
It would be a lot like you reading a history book, and then calling a grandparent condescending for telling you their stories from the same time.You read it, they (and I) lived it.
Um, I am not sure if that ruling exists, because there isn't really a reason to. Why would a creature cast for madness die EOT? It doesn't say anywhere on the card, unlike other effects like unearth or things that say "at end of turn sacrifice, exile, etc".
You can 'play' it for the madness cost, and when you 'play' a permanent (creatures are permanents), it comes on the field and stays there until something tells you to move it to another zone.
There is nothing that would imply that madness ends eot, unless she is thinking it is like the unearth or similar, and is inserting that in her head. There have been many cards I thought worked one way, that I had read many times, but I kept adding extra in my head until friends pointed them out to me. It happens. Things like "target creature" vs "target creature an opponent controls". I wish I could remember the last card I misread as an example, but it was awhile ago.
The really confusing thing with Madness, and I forget how to explain it, is if you have 2 mana, and during your main phase discard a card with madness of 3, you actually can play a land before having to pay the madness effect. Unless they changed that, I know that was madness when it first was released. It is an almost meaningless rule, as I don't think I've ever heard of a time where that is a useful thing to be able to do, but it is (or was) doable.
I think you are very correct in that I misunderstood. I have played in all different levels, and Daxos I have only seen at scary level; mana crypt, drains, forces, like 20 counters, a bunch of board wipes, and all that. I assumed (making an ass of myself) you had the same thing, which would explain (to me) why everyone was ganging up on you.
I think the high man is what he went and explained. Otherwise I have no idea either. Just target one guy, make his game as unfun as possible, and if he asks why explain it is because he always targeted you and made the game unfun for you, so you 'manned up' and decided to return the favor.
You could always make a combo deck... one that takes out everyone at the same time, but that gets away (generally) from use of the commander. Most of the combo decks I've built basically have the general as color binding.
Lol, you sound a lot like me.
I am used to be targeted and "picked on". The reason is probably similar to yours, especially if you started in Blue/White; our decks are too good and everyone knows the only way to win is to team up on you, otherwise you (or I) will win every single time.
There are several solutions.
1. Up the power of your deck even more so that it doesn't matter if 3 team up on you, you can still beat them. I'd recommend BUG. I had a friend that would come by, play 4 player games involving me and 2 other decent players, and the 3 of us would obviously and clearly work together to try and beat him. 7 games we have played. 7 games the 3 of us have lost...
2. Weaken your deck, or make it more fun. By more fun I mean Not Blue... Blue is great, but it generally isn't fun. Control is generally not fun. Aggro-control can be fun, but you may want to look into some GR/WR/RW/GRW/BR/etc deck that is more aggressive, with some control but not nearly as much as UW.
3. Try to help others make their decks better. One of the rules I always liked in my shop, was we want to play against the player, not their wallet. Let them use Proxies. They have to be 'decent' proxies, no sharpies on cards, but print out a card on paper cut it out and slip it in is fine. That way full oracle text and art is visible. That way they can build their decks more powerfully so they won't necessarily feel the only way to win is by taking you out first.
4. You could also get archenemy and try playing as the archenemy. That way they can team up on you all they want, and you have an additional advantage to try and overcome the 3 on 1 effect.
Just my thoughts. But you did start with a really jerky mentality. I did too, so please don't think I am being insulting, I suffer the same exact issue.
To answer your new questions, I had my eye on Leovold too. I like BUG. BUG is the 3 most powerful colors in the game. In EDH, most agree most powerful is actually green, very closely VERY closely followed by blue, trailing in 3rd is black, distant 4th is white, and way WAY in the back is red. Leovold looks like it could easily be built into a deck that is not going to solve your problem about people picking on you. It may solve your problem of losing to 3 when they team up on you if you power it up, but it doesn't look like a 'fun' general, it looks far more 'competitive'.
Mayeal is a fun deck, and can be built strong, but not broken. Meren is a blast, I love my new meren deck. Tasigur is breakable. He like most BUG generals can be made stupid strong.
Derevi is an interesting guy. He is grouphug colors, but can be easily broken (hence why he is banned in french). For GUW decks I've always liked goodstuff builds. Put in a couple of useful counters, a couple of mass board wipes, a few equipment, most mana ramp, couple of pin point kills, some card draw, add land, and there is about 60-70 cards for a good start, and gives you 30-40 to tailor to your own desires. Derevi could probably be built into a nice stabby group hug deck, potentially a kingmaker (you pick a player, you help them win, and when it is just the two of you, you try and stab him in the back to take the victory).
If you really want to make friends, build a second deck that is either grouphug or something like Norin.
hands down best combo general no question is scion... it is the most broken, stupidest, dumbest deck. It is also number 1 on the "least fun to play against" list, and probably could arguably be the only deck on that list, as it is just solitaire.
The only reason I can think that it didn't get more votes, is that people (and they should be very thankful) have never had the misfortune of playing against it, and so don't understand how truly ridiculous the deck is.
For those unfamiliar, google it. Basically someone decided to try and figure out what the most broken combo in the format is (hermit druid into whatever), and then built the deck to do that, and really only that. Every single way of getting hermit druid, I mean every, single, way, in every, single, color is used, and it is just so stupid...
The only way another deck wins is if scion keeps a bad hand, or scion keeps a good hand, and the other keeps a stupid broken hand. But good hand v good hand I'd vote on scion every time. And if scion has a broken hand, nothing can touch it.
Perhaps you can tell I am a little bitter still from my experience against (and online with) the deck. It is so unfun it is impossible to describe unless you have experienced it.
Wow flappy. You are correct. I missed it the first time, never will again. It is like the arrow in FedEx, once you see it, you only see it from then on.
As someone who has been playing since Beta, I think the OP may be missing something. Yes, we know all the continents on Dominaria, we know the people, the cities, yup; who cares? The reason we know that is magic was VERY different then, and if it was the same game then as now there most likely wouldn't be a game now. Back then, for the first 10 years, we only had Dominaria, cause they were still building the player base, and were spending their time more on that than on the 'multiverse' aspect.
One of the later posters made a comment about decisions in the game based on story. I agree. The game is what is important, the story helps it make sense, but that isn't the point; the point is to play a game. If you are truly interested in the story, where you should go, is a place called a 'library'. They have lots of stories, and you don't have to worry about broken combos ruining your day.
This is a game. It has a story, but the story is secondary to the game.
As I was reading, make sure you specify between DIGIT and NUMBER, the largest number in 456 is weird language wise, the largest digit in 456 is 6. End math nerd rant.
cube root of 92 is somewhere between 4 and 5. so the card at the least would need to specify whether to round up or down, but the poster of the comment of cube root of 92 makes a valid point; I like it, but others may not be able to rough round cubes like a math nerd. Perhaps list out the first 7 cubes in flavor text, so people could see what it is between easily, and just have round up or round down ruling.
I like the idea of common pot, but that starts getting into ante (I love ante for signatures btw), and gambling, and unfortunately not something that is useful. Perhaps introduce a new resource to the game; everyone starts with 10-20 chips, and those can be used for the common pot mechanic. A limited resource that you could take, or give for benefits, and some effects require payment of, and if you can't pay some other option.
I am also a fan of the third party having the 2 options depending on the way it rules. The only issue is collusion, which although in casual not that relevant, can make people feel horrible, if for some reason the third party wants to be a jerk to them, and their opponent keeps picking the jerk as the third party.
Damn I'm a moron sometimes... I don't know what I started rambling off at the end, was clearly not talking about cyclonic rift, don't know what I was thinking after the start of that post about hexproof...
I have been trying over the past few months to build non-blue decks, after 8 years of really only blue decks, so I will base my silly hexproof comments on about 3 months since I have used cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic Rift is blue's ***. Hexproof doesn't work on *** either
I am not sure EVERY blue deck should play it... I say that because I am the type of person who hates universal statements, because there always are exceptions... I just don't personally know any of why every blue deck shouldn't play it, but I'd assume there is at least 1 blue deck that has better choices.
That being said, I am a heavy blue player, I generally try to avoid stupid combos, unless I am specifically building a stupid combo deck (I'm looking at you damia, and Xiahou), and this has been in every single blue deck I have since it came out.
It can be 'broken', but generally in most of my decks it isn't anything more than a blue ***, save my ass, or annoy you by making you discard if you overextended.
I do not think it "warps the format" anymore than ***. Certainly not as much as sphinx, or even navigator. It is good. Very good.
The issue of "build up a solid boardstate only for this to ruin it", sounds sort of like "I over extended thinking I was safe and he smacked me hard for it". It has happened to me, and it feels so bad... but was it that this is really always amazing? or is it just really amazing and overpowered when you overextended and opponent got a lucky hit when you weren't expecting it?
I also hear shroud/hexproof are useful abilities too. If you find yourself being really hurt by this card (compare to *** costing 3 less but being sorcery), maybe add more shroud/hexproof, or hand disruption.
Blue is broken. It just is. Islands have always been the best basic land. It is well known. But on the list of blue cards that are overpowered... I wouldn't put this in the top 10.
Agreed Vault. I think it has some interesting potential, but as it stands it doesn't right now.
wish there were more people involved here... could be a great thread.
I sort of agree, but Vault, I think OP was giving that as a simple example. There could be an artifact with activation for target wishful thinking, a few instants with the side effect of wishful thinking a target. Maybe an instant that did it to all cards. There could be sorceries that do it until your next upkeep. There could be CIP effects that permanently activate wishful thinking on target card.
I think there is some potential development there, but as currently stated, yeah, seems weird, but then again, that is what Un- sets are for.
I can make no promises, but after being on MTGSalvation for a very long time, and saying how I was going to keep posting to a thread, this is the first thread I have bookmarked. This looks really awesome! I loved unglued/unhinged. I would love to be able to draft it again, and if a decent set can be made, I could print it, sleeve it, and effectively do a cube draft with it.
I looked through some lists of RGB legends to try and find some other useful babies. Didn't find any really epic legends in Red, other than maybe akroma and you can change baby akroma to the red version, then add a new baby white legend. But I did come up with these;
Baby Kokusho
BBB - Legendary Creature: Baby Dragon
Flying, whenever this creature dies, all opponents lose 2 life, and you gain life equal to the total life lost this way.
2/2
Baby Multani
GGG - Legendary Creature: Baby Maro
X is the average number of cards in all players hands rounded down (add up all the cards in all players hands, divide by the number of players, and round down). Shroud.
X/X
I agree with sol ring. I don't think it was ever nearing $20, though some printings certainly were, but I think I never paid more than $10 for a revised ring, and usually closer to $5 until about a year or so before the first commander deck, then they started going up a bit... then announced and back down. That's why I have a sol ring that could theoretically be the first sol ring ever printed... probably isn't, but could be. And alpha rings aren't going to be going down
I don't necessarily agree with bolt, it would be higher, but without the reprint it would only be vintage legal, so it wouldn't have the demand in modern. That does of course delegitimize my first point a little, but ignoring that.
Ritual may also be a tough one. If the interactions were discovered, absolutely, but the reprinting of it allowed it it be mixed. I remember when ritual was not a good card. Bold was always good. Sol ring was always good. Ritual... took some time, and interaction
Alpha shivans are pretty high now, not sure if reprints had anything to do with it, but maybe. I heard about shivan being traded for a lotus before anyone knew that 3 mana was good.
Birds DEFINITELY fits the bill. They were $10 bills for the longest time. Then they got reprinted and hit the floor. I traded for them at about $8, and traded them away for $10 for years. I was bummed when they got all the reprints, but I didn't have a large inventory left so not that bummed... Now that BoPs are rising again, I would definitely assume they'd be A LOT higher with a lot fewer reprints...
I think to find the REALLY expensive answers to this, you need to look at modern/vintage staples, in both formats, that were originally from a modern set. That way they are in modern, but only printed once, backed by the need in vintage. I'm drawing a bit of a blank, but Goyf would seem a candidate, not sure though how much the limited reprints truly effect the price.
Scooze could be.
Path and Swords definitely agree
Sorry if trying to educate people about what magic was actually like to be played, instead of just looking back on a time you didn't play in and didn't understand is condescending... that is your issue. Most people here never played during the days of Dominaria, so I am not sure exactly what kind of expertise you bring to the discussion.
Having young players try and tell us old players what the game was like before those young players were playing is rather obnoxious.
It would be a lot like you reading a history book, and then calling a grandparent condescending for telling you their stories from the same time.You read it, they (and I) lived it.
You can 'play' it for the madness cost, and when you 'play' a permanent (creatures are permanents), it comes on the field and stays there until something tells you to move it to another zone.
There is nothing that would imply that madness ends eot, unless she is thinking it is like the unearth or similar, and is inserting that in her head. There have been many cards I thought worked one way, that I had read many times, but I kept adding extra in my head until friends pointed them out to me. It happens. Things like "target creature" vs "target creature an opponent controls". I wish I could remember the last card I misread as an example, but it was awhile ago.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/rules-primer-madness-2002-01-24
The really confusing thing with Madness, and I forget how to explain it, is if you have 2 mana, and during your main phase discard a card with madness of 3, you actually can play a land before having to pay the madness effect. Unless they changed that, I know that was madness when it first was released. It is an almost meaningless rule, as I don't think I've ever heard of a time where that is a useful thing to be able to do, but it is (or was) doable.
I think the high man is what he went and explained. Otherwise I have no idea either. Just target one guy, make his game as unfun as possible, and if he asks why explain it is because he always targeted you and made the game unfun for you, so you 'manned up' and decided to return the favor.
You could always make a combo deck... one that takes out everyone at the same time, but that gets away (generally) from use of the commander. Most of the combo decks I've built basically have the general as color binding.
I am used to be targeted and "picked on". The reason is probably similar to yours, especially if you started in Blue/White; our decks are too good and everyone knows the only way to win is to team up on you, otherwise you (or I) will win every single time.
There are several solutions.
1. Up the power of your deck even more so that it doesn't matter if 3 team up on you, you can still beat them. I'd recommend BUG. I had a friend that would come by, play 4 player games involving me and 2 other decent players, and the 3 of us would obviously and clearly work together to try and beat him. 7 games we have played. 7 games the 3 of us have lost...
2. Weaken your deck, or make it more fun. By more fun I mean Not Blue... Blue is great, but it generally isn't fun. Control is generally not fun. Aggro-control can be fun, but you may want to look into some GR/WR/RW/GRW/BR/etc deck that is more aggressive, with some control but not nearly as much as UW.
3. Try to help others make their decks better. One of the rules I always liked in my shop, was we want to play against the player, not their wallet. Let them use Proxies. They have to be 'decent' proxies, no sharpies on cards, but print out a card on paper cut it out and slip it in is fine. That way full oracle text and art is visible. That way they can build their decks more powerfully so they won't necessarily feel the only way to win is by taking you out first.
4. You could also get archenemy and try playing as the archenemy. That way they can team up on you all they want, and you have an additional advantage to try and overcome the 3 on 1 effect.
Just my thoughts. But you did start with a really jerky mentality. I did too, so please don't think I am being insulting, I suffer the same exact issue.
To answer your new questions, I had my eye on Leovold too. I like BUG. BUG is the 3 most powerful colors in the game. In EDH, most agree most powerful is actually green, very closely VERY closely followed by blue, trailing in 3rd is black, distant 4th is white, and way WAY in the back is red. Leovold looks like it could easily be built into a deck that is not going to solve your problem about people picking on you. It may solve your problem of losing to 3 when they team up on you if you power it up, but it doesn't look like a 'fun' general, it looks far more 'competitive'.
Mayeal is a fun deck, and can be built strong, but not broken. Meren is a blast, I love my new meren deck. Tasigur is breakable. He like most BUG generals can be made stupid strong.
Derevi is an interesting guy. He is grouphug colors, but can be easily broken (hence why he is banned in french). For GUW decks I've always liked goodstuff builds. Put in a couple of useful counters, a couple of mass board wipes, a few equipment, most mana ramp, couple of pin point kills, some card draw, add land, and there is about 60-70 cards for a good start, and gives you 30-40 to tailor to your own desires. Derevi could probably be built into a nice stabby group hug deck, potentially a kingmaker (you pick a player, you help them win, and when it is just the two of you, you try and stab him in the back to take the victory).
If you really want to make friends, build a second deck that is either grouphug or something like Norin.
The only reason I can think that it didn't get more votes, is that people (and they should be very thankful) have never had the misfortune of playing against it, and so don't understand how truly ridiculous the deck is.
For those unfamiliar, google it. Basically someone decided to try and figure out what the most broken combo in the format is (hermit druid into whatever), and then built the deck to do that, and really only that. Every single way of getting hermit druid, I mean every, single, way, in every, single, color is used, and it is just so stupid...
The only way another deck wins is if scion keeps a bad hand, or scion keeps a good hand, and the other keeps a stupid broken hand. But good hand v good hand I'd vote on scion every time. And if scion has a broken hand, nothing can touch it.
Perhaps you can tell I am a little bitter still from my experience against (and online with) the deck. It is so unfun it is impossible to describe unless you have experienced it.
One of the later posters made a comment about decisions in the game based on story. I agree. The game is what is important, the story helps it make sense, but that isn't the point; the point is to play a game. If you are truly interested in the story, where you should go, is a place called a 'library'. They have lots of stories, and you don't have to worry about broken combos ruining your day.
This is a game. It has a story, but the story is secondary to the game.
cube root of 92 is somewhere between 4 and 5. so the card at the least would need to specify whether to round up or down, but the poster of the comment of cube root of 92 makes a valid point; I like it, but others may not be able to rough round cubes like a math nerd. Perhaps list out the first 7 cubes in flavor text, so people could see what it is between easily, and just have round up or round down ruling.
I like the idea of common pot, but that starts getting into ante (I love ante for signatures btw), and gambling, and unfortunately not something that is useful. Perhaps introduce a new resource to the game; everyone starts with 10-20 chips, and those can be used for the common pot mechanic. A limited resource that you could take, or give for benefits, and some effects require payment of, and if you can't pay some other option.
I am also a fan of the third party having the 2 options depending on the way it rules. The only issue is collusion, which although in casual not that relevant, can make people feel horrible, if for some reason the third party wants to be a jerk to them, and their opponent keeps picking the jerk as the third party.
I have been trying over the past few months to build non-blue decks, after 8 years of really only blue decks, so I will base my silly hexproof comments on about 3 months since I have used cyclonic rift.
Cyclonic Rift is blue's ***. Hexproof doesn't work on *** either
That being said, I am a heavy blue player, I generally try to avoid stupid combos, unless I am specifically building a stupid combo deck (I'm looking at you damia, and Xiahou), and this has been in every single blue deck I have since it came out.
It can be 'broken', but generally in most of my decks it isn't anything more than a blue ***, save my ass, or annoy you by making you discard if you overextended.
I do not think it "warps the format" anymore than ***. Certainly not as much as sphinx, or even navigator. It is good. Very good.
The issue of "build up a solid boardstate only for this to ruin it", sounds sort of like "I over extended thinking I was safe and he smacked me hard for it". It has happened to me, and it feels so bad... but was it that this is really always amazing? or is it just really amazing and overpowered when you overextended and opponent got a lucky hit when you weren't expecting it?
I also hear shroud/hexproof are useful abilities too. If you find yourself being really hurt by this card (compare to *** costing 3 less but being sorcery), maybe add more shroud/hexproof, or hand disruption.
Blue is broken. It just is. Islands have always been the best basic land. It is well known. But on the list of blue cards that are overpowered... I wouldn't put this in the top 10.
wish there were more people involved here... could be a great thread.
I think there is some potential development there, but as currently stated, yeah, seems weird, but then again, that is what Un- sets are for.
I looked through some lists of RGB legends to try and find some other useful babies. Didn't find any really epic legends in Red, other than maybe akroma and you can change baby akroma to the red version, then add a new baby white legend. But I did come up with these;
Baby Kokusho
BBB - Legendary Creature: Baby Dragon
Flying, whenever this creature dies, all opponents lose 2 life, and you gain life equal to the total life lost this way.
2/2
Baby Multani
GGG - Legendary Creature: Baby Maro
X is the average number of cards in all players hands rounded down (add up all the cards in all players hands, divide by the number of players, and round down). Shroud.
X/X